Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
Haven't seen this posted anywhere else... Forgive me if it has...
From the story posted yesterday, here. What do you make of this and would you be opting out, by opting out you are telling Virgin Media, you do not want your surfing habits tracked and this information given to a third party? --- There have been Updates since the beginning of this thread:- Post 77:- http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34491957-post77.html Post 102:- http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34492122-post102.html --- FAQ:- Who should I complain to about this if this is something I do not agree with? The first port of call should be to complain to Virgin Media directly, state that you are not happy about your data being tracked and sold to a third party even if your identity is protected or not. Secondly, there is a Data Protection concern regarding how the data is collected and the fact customers have automatically been opted in, regulation usually requires that customers should be given the option to Opt in. If you are concerned and feel you need to complain to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ You can ring them on 01625 545 745. When will Virgin Media Implement this system with Phorm? Virgin Media have simply stated that they have not decided yet what they are doing or what options are there for the customers. The bottom line is, they need to be fully consulting with the customer and we will be making sure that they provide relevant information to the customer and what options will be available to them. Is there anything I can download to prevent this 'Intrusion' i.e stopping the data analysis being collected by my ISP and passed on to the likes of Phorm? Yes there is, its called Tor and can be downloaded Free from http://www.torproject.org/. Please make sure you read the documentation before you decide to download and use it. Please note that use of this software is at your own risk. -- |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
I hate ads relevant or not:mad:, I do not like the idea of having my surfing habits tracked to provide me with a direct ad "service".:erm: I've already contacted VM to find out how I can opt out. Does privacy mean bugger all to anyone?
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No I don't think its a good idea.
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I have asked VM today - awaiting a response, coming soon. :p:
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it's a very bad idea
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Well, I don't have anything to hide, and as I shop online for a lot of goods and services. This could be a good thing, but it might not be.
If I suspect though that the cookies are taking to much information, I can make some basic changes in my browser (see sig picture) that should block them. |
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I dont want my info on web habits to be sent to companies bad idea VM boo
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Does it mean I will get my VM services cheaper?No I think not so the answer would no.
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if they pay me for the info then maybe .
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Not only will be opting out but i'd probably cancel my account with VM.
Its one thing to have VM knowing your surfing habits but its entirely another thing to pass the details to another 3rd party that is completely unaccountable and unmonitorable (if such a word exists). Its not about having anything to hide about a particular site that people view as most people would have nothing to fear, but data mining (the process by which anonymous bits of data are matched together using filters and sequences). Given an IP as a tracker, and a list of URLs it would be quite easy to build a big profile up and match the data with real people. And any rogue employee at Phorm can do it with the data access can do it. |
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It's one thing visiting a specific website and they track your habits about your specific visit. It's quite another being tracked across the internet. I beleive that is called spyware :(
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What was is I saw in a thread a few days ago about internet privacy?? Although, having said that, I got FF secured as tight as I can make it, in the past 3 years, I have never seen ANY adds or popups at all thanks to ff & the extensions! You can bet your life I will be checking my cookies a number of times a day to make sure no such rubbish is stored on my computer. I actually thought that it was illegal to track internet usage & to serve up ads, weather or not they are relevant? When VM do this, I will be straight on the phone to them and they will have ANOTHER unhappy chappy on their line giving them what for! EDIT: If I want to check something out, I google it and then browse through the results, I have never once clicked an ad or anything that has popped up, I dont care how damn relevant it is, if I want to buy any product, I will go to a reputable (re)seller, I dont go flagrantly clicking links just because it has something that MIGHT interest me! |
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If that's the case, your choice of browser will be irrelevant. Also, if you think blocking popups/ads will help, comcast have, I believe, been doing a lot of work in html rewriting, so they may just be able to embed the ad in your page regardless (as comcast did). |
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I'll be opting out asap.
I can't believe that with all the data privacy laws and such that VM can get away with this. If the police etc were collecting data on a suspect, possibly linked to criminal activity, wouldn't they need a warrant to monitor their web traffic? How is it different, just because it is 'advertising'? It's still snooping. |
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Be interesting to see if the DPA applies. Mr Angry would probably know this, but I think the Data Protection Act would apply if any personally identifiable data is passed to the other company from Virgin (I don't know if this ID number they are planning to use would be counted as personal data, as it would be tied indirectly to you).
For the record, if I used Virgin for broadband, I would either be expecting some sort of compensation for this data I am helpfully providing them, or cancel my account. ---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ---------- Quote:
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Well from what i have seen here so far they will have to allow me 1 of the following.
Opt out Disconnect VIRGIN what will it be ? |
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Apparently you can switch it on and off at will
http://www.phorm.com/ How it works: *Ntl gives phorm a random number and the web page you are looking *Phorm gives NTl the relevant ad together with the number *NTl pops the ads on your screen, they know your IP as it is associated with the random number returned by Phorm |
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http://www.phorm.com/about/faq.php?_...6,17,18,19#isp
http://webwise.com/ NOTE that Virgin Media are missing from that website |
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Boy i bet this thread grows pretty dam fast |
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From what I've just read there, it isn't so clear Quote:
Have I got the wrong end of the stick? |
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http://www.phorm.com/isp_partners/ |
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Why should I have to opt out. I should have to opt in :mad:
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Lets face it. This is another shafting from Virgin |
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How in gods name can they serve RELEVANT ads to joe Bloggs and say that they dont store browsing habits? how on earth do they do it then if they dont store these details, I mean, if they dont store details, how they supposed to give the user relevant ads? |
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I shall be opting out, can see absolutely no reason to want this rubbish!
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Did I miss something - dont data protection laws mean you have to opt in to sharing your data, not out ?
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VM's Terms & Conditions:
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And from the Privacy Policy Quote:
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Looks like my adblocker will be working overtime then.
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Why dont they (VM) just go full hog & "install" a VM rep inside your home, sat right next to you at your pc with a notebook & pen?
Its basically the same thing, whatever next from the 2 bit pile of donkey dung that they call a "BUSINESS"?? |
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I have a theory.
There are a group of numpty's that travel from company to company with the sole intention of destroying it. At the moment i thinks its Virgins turn to have the numpty's working for them in the "What a good idea department" |
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I don't see any on-page/pop-up/pop-under ads, Firefox & AdBlock Plus are your friends.
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I got an ad blocking program on a disc that used to block all ads weather they were Embedded or pop up, if VM go ahead with this fool of a scheme i will just install it again
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Ad block pop up blocker things aren't the answer though. You might not see the ad, but it is still there. The real concern is the system of generating the ad, which has somehow been monitoring your personal browsing habits. That is big brother territory. It's that monitoring that has to be prevented, not the ad itself.
By contrast, google adsense and other systems generate content relative to the page that is being read. Yes some may find those ads annoying, but they haven't intruded on private browsing habits to do so. All they know is what the website is displaying. |
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I fully agree i just dont like adds fullstop m8. |
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it's an invasion of privacy and therefore a breach of the law..?
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Clearly six people who have voted 'No' so far are happy to have their privacy intruded upon. They have voted no but haven't included their reasons to why they wouldn't mind.
This is like allowing a stranger to read a paper at the same time as you. This like saying you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone stared into your house through your windows. How strange - but then again we do live in a strange world. |
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haven't voted yet, but, how is this any different to any other contextual based advertising such as google adsense? |
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This is awful and indigitive of the big brother state we are becomming. :mad:
I would opt out/cancel if I were still with VM but how long will it take for the other isp's to cash in? |
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It's a bit naive to believe that your browsing habits are private. Surfing leaves an electronic footprint; ads or no ads.
Schemes like this are designed to cash in on the data that exists. You may avoid targeted ads if you opt out; but opting out to preserve privacy is like closing your eyes to make the big bad wolf go away. |
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I know that if I visit site A Site A will collect some data on my browsing and use of that site. If I visit site B, the same will happen. If I return to site A, that site remembers me, and may offer me some information based on my last visit.
What I so not expect is that having visited site V, I find that site V continues to track my browsing of both visits to site V, but also lets site X know that I'm visiting site A & B, so that site X can tell site C what ad to display when I go there. That isn't privacy in any form whatsoever. For a long while VM, or at least the old NTL Ts& Cs or AUP said they didn't track what what it's users were doing. When did that dissappear and why wasn't I told as to me that is a very significant change in what they, my ISP can do. |
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This is absolutely absurd, how can they be allowed to pass on your details to a 3rd party without your consent? surely this breaks the law under the data protection act?
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God this is as bad as going down your local shopping centre and having leaflets thrust in your face every 5 steps that you didn't ask for!
As far as I'm aware it's ME that decides what to buy and where to shop not some ad company trying to force unsolicited 'virtual leaflets' in my face! |
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More here, here, here and here
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But the thing is, they say they "store" all the sites you visit & the searches, HOW LONG do they keep the data to make up this "profile"??
For instance, I will come on here, catch up on the new posts & threads, then I will probably close my browser for a bit, remember I need to check something on ebay, then close again, later on I'm back on here catching up, follow any interesting links like news stories & the like, then back here again. Will they track ALL of this, or just the current internet session, and when the browser is closed, so is their "profile"? Quote:
If I wanted people watching what I do online, I'd link up a massive video screen wall in the middle of the town centre so they could watch! Any sort of an update on how to opt-out of this rubbish? Whats the betting their website crashes cos of too many people opting out at once :D :D |
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So, this is different to Google AdSense ?
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This system works by tracking (and presumably keeping a record of) your browsing habits. This is the main problem I have with it. Also, one other thing. How would it cope with public internet access terminals (such as those in Cyber Cafes)? You could go in one, and find that thanks to the viewing habits of those who used the terminal before you, their targetted advertising system sends you ads for hardcore porn, online pharmacies and nazi memorabilia. |
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Internet privacy is an illusion :disturbd: |
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To build a sucessful profile of someone's browsing habits could take a long time, especially for occasional users. |
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Taken from that third link:
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The ads served by this new system will involve intrusive spying on what sites web users visit and this information being passed about willy nilly, just so a quick buck can be made. It's quite unacceptable this and that the bottom line is that this is just like a basic Spyware process, but on a more massive scale. However, bizarre as it may seem - according to the poll so far, seven people think its okay... Though I bet they would kick up a scream if we all camped outside their house for the day and peered through their windows, but I could be guessing wrong after all, they wouldn't mind it, seeing as they wouldn't mind this. |
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Shame its a private poll, would be interesting to see the few that have stated they dont mind, see if a "profile" can be created of these people by checking up on previous posts & threads, and then make assumptions based on what was found, bet they wouldnt be so happy about that! :angel: ;) :)
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from what i can tell, all phorm is doing is what google are doing now, but increasing the capturing area. they aren't going to insert ads randomly, it'll just be like googles ads, the web site sticks some code in the html and phorm sort the ads out. |
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When your browsing the net, well for me anyway, i wouldnt appreciate having ads all over the page, ads also take up space on the page, so the page loads slower too, and as I'm not the only one, I dont want bloody ads on the pages I browse. Mostly when I use any search (like google or Wikipedia) its just general things I am interested in, like if I watch a film on TV and I like it, I will google or wiki it to find out all the info, I dont want ads diplayed, just the info I need. |
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It's funny that when these things come around peoples first response is they don't have anything to hide. The point is you shouldn't have to even state that. It's irrelevant. If the postman was to open your letters in order to work out which junk mail to add to your mail you wouldn't be stating your innocence. The first problem I have here if this gets implemented is working out which ISP to move to.
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The phorm system relies on a random number which, for their tracking to work would have to be stored somewhere, with records of what that users has browsed (I know the site doesn't state this, but it's the only way I can see that such a system would target the ads). The ISP would store the random number, as well as personal details (such as CM Mac address and even account details). Someone with a modicum of hacking skills (or even someone who found dodgy employees in both companies) could obtain access to both these databases. Yes, you have the opt out, but you only have their word that they are not still storing the data, even if you don't get the ads. Would you still feel the same way if you found out that (say) the Post Office developed a technology that would enable them to read your letters without opening them, store that data and use it to target junk mail? |
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from what i can tell, its another ad serving network just with a different way of making the targeted ads. dont want to see them? add the domains to whatever ad blocker you use just like you do with google ads. they aren't magical ads that aren't blockable :rolleyes: |
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Something just hit me, with all the news of this tracking & ads, what's it going to do for the privacy bit thats going on with how the govenment wants ISP's to look at all packets being sent & recieved to TRY to prevent piracy, makes me shudder to think what's going to be next... |
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And further to Mick's point (also repeating my own from above): While you can opt out of this advertising system, you have to trust they are not recording your browsing habits. If you block a Google ad, there is no way on earth Google will be able to track you through that ad. Yes, their is some evidence that they store any searches you make against your IP, and store gmail indefinately, but you do have the option not to use Google for searching, and to use email services other than gmail.
In essence, you can block Google's tracking relatively easily, whatever form it takes. You cannot actually block phorm from tracking you. You can opt out, and hope they don't track you, but you cannot be entirely sure, and even if you did find out you were being tracked against your wishes, you would need evidence and potentially a lot of money to take action against them. |
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Hi All,
if they post ads based on my surfing habits they will be really worth seeing. George;) |
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I assume that both VM and Phorm will make money on the ads we click on that have been pushed on us by Phorm?
If this is the case, do what I do and don't give them an incentive to push these things on us. Make it uneconomical for them to continue this 'service' by not clicking on any pop-up or embedded ads. As soon as the click-throughs and hence the revenue streams dry up they'll have to reconsider. I'll opt out, but I also have a personal policy of NEVER clicking on-screen ads. If I want something, I'll find it myself. I'm still heavily against my browsing habits being tracked by a 3rd party and will be contacting VM as soon as more details become available. |
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I'm not bothered by it.
People seem to be missing one valid point though. If it means people will be served more relevent ads, its means more chance that they will click them. Which means more money for the site that you are visiting. How long would this forum stay online for if everyone used ad blocking software? |
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However, just by looking at all the searches that, say 2343453 did in a week, it was possible to determine people's personal information in many cases. For example, I might visit the website for my local town, then my bank, then a website that uses my username as part of the URL. Now they know where I live, what bank I use and at least one alias. A quick google search might find other places where my alias is used along with my real name, etc. If you want to read about what happened with AOL, there's a good article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/te...08cnd-aol.html So, there doesn't need to be any collusion between both companies. The data provides enough information for people to discover identities. ---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ---------- Quote:
Care to post how much you earn and where you live? |
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Yes websites do rely on advertising. Before Google Adsense, this site was totally reliant on donations and the goodwill of the team at that time to pay for the server costs. es people find ads annoying and a balance needs to be struck so they are visible but not obtrusive. Those who opt out by use of ad blockers fair enough, but it's like the dimminishing returns TV advertisers are seeinng. One day the quality of your user experience will drop if the income doesn't pay the outgoings.
Adsense and similar systems can at most only know what the website owner knows about their visitor, i.e. which pages / web content on that site the visitor has seen. Ads are at most targeted to the webspace being viewed, rather than the user. This proposed phorn method of serving ads is so much more invasive of the user's privacy than previous methods. It is clearly big brother technology. That somehow my webbrowsing habits are being tracked "annonymously" but they aren't annonymous since somehow my identity is allocated a random numer (a database allocation must control that which somehow must identify me so it isn't anonymous), makes it vulnerable. In turn, somehow the website's thaht serve up this system of ads, will be able to link me to the random number. Wouldn't take that much before the phisher type scammers work out how to use this random number against me. I wonder what OFCOM and the Data Protection Commissioner have to say about all this? |
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Update:
Just got off the phone from the Virgin Media press office. Basically VM haven't implemented anything yet so this is no where near launch. BT are apparently a step further and trialling it with 10,000 customers. I raised the issue that customers should be given the choice to opt in, not the other way round. VM are looking at this process and are said to be finalising arrangements regarding this, nothing has been agreed yet. At the moment - the option to opt out, the process involves a visit to a website, webwise and to tick a check box as to whether you want the service or not. This then stores a *cookie* on your computer. I have asked we be sent some clear clarification on the whole process as there appears to be some ambiguity regarding how this all works. I'll update this thread as and when I get more information. |
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Would using a proxy stop this tracking? Surely all their records would show would be the address of the proxy. |
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I have enough junk through my letter box, which I return in the envelope provided, minus my address of course. I don't require any more via my PC thank you. I have not and never will buy anything from unsolicited advertising. If I require a service I will look for it. Guess if I voted yes or no.:mad:
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I can see why they want it to be an opt out process. Who is going to opt in? and if they don't opt in then the system won't be of benefit to advertisers? If it's opt out, many will simply not do so, through apathy, or even ignorance that the system exists.
Opt out should place nothing on my computer(s). Would I have to do that for every computer I use, and as stated above, if I clear my cookies or whatever, would I have to go through the rigmarole again? Too many, questions, not enough clarity or answers yet. |
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I have just got off the phone to CS and asked them to add a note to my account stating that should this be a OP out i will be cancelling my service.
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Equally, with apparently the large ISPs already signed to this, and no doubt others taking a strong interest in it, where do you go to reliably avoid it :( |
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i think you will find it is illegal to share customers details with anybody unless you have given strict permission to give that information out due to the data protection act, that is why you get tick boxes on applications and such stuff that allow you to opt in or out of having your details released to a 3rd party, as an opt out this would, imho, be illegal as it is in direct breach of the data protection
article 59 of the data protection act follows (have bolded the main points)-------- 59 Confidentiality of information (1) No person who is or has been the Commissioner, a member of the Commissioner’s staff or an agent of the Commissioner shall disclose any information which— (a) has been obtained by, or furnished to, the Commissioner under or for the purposes of this Act, (b) relates to an identified or identifiable individual or business, and (c) is not at the time of the disclosure, and has not previously been, available to the public from other sources, unless the disclosure is made with lawful authority. (2) For the purposes of subsection (1) a disclosure of information is made with lawful authority only if, and to the extent that— (a) the disclosure is made with the consent of the individual or of the person for the time being carrying on the business, (b) the information was provided for the purpose of its being made available to the public (in whatever manner) under any provision of this Act, (c) the disclosure is made for the purposes of, and is necessary for, the discharge of— (i) any functions under this Act, or (ii) any Community obligation, (d) the disclosure is made for the purposes of any proceedings, whether criminal or civil and whether arising under, or by virtue of, this Act or otherwise, or (e) having regard to the rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of any person, the disclosure is necessary in the public interest. (3) Any person who knowingly or recklessly discloses information in contravention of subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. also section 55 55 Unlawful obtaining etc. of personal data (1) A person must not knowingly or recklessly, without the consent of the data controller— (a) obtain or disclose personal data or the information contained in personal data, or (b) procure the disclosure to another person of the information contained in personal data. (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who shows— (a) that the obtaining, disclosing or procuring— (i) was necessary for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime, or (ii) was required or authorised by or under any enactment, by any rule of law or by the order of a court, (b) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he had in law the right to obtain or disclose the data or information or, as the case may be, to procure the disclosure of the information to the other person, (c) that he acted in the reasonable belief that he would have had the consent of the data controller if the data controller had known of the obtaining, disclosing or procuring and the circumstances of it, or (d) that in the particular circumstances the obtaining, disclosing or procuring was justified as being in the public interest. (3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence. (4) A person who sells personal data is guilty of an offence if he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1). (5) A person who offers to sell personal data is guilty of an offence if— (a) he has obtained the data in contravention of subsection (1), or (b) he subsequently obtains the data in contravention of that subsection. (6) For the purposes of subsection (5), an advertisement indicating that personal data are or may be for sale is an offer to sell the data. (7) Section 1(2) does not apply for the purposes of this section; and for the purposes of subsections (4) to (6), “personal data” includes information extracted from personal data. (8) References in this section to personal data do not include references to personal data which by virtue of section 28 are exempt from this section. |
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Surely they will have let people know in writing about this "service" so that people will have the option of opting out? If they don't then we'll have to make sure we tell as many people as we can and they tell thier friends and so on making it useless anyway.
lol i opted out |
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Virgin Media sure know how to hit that self destruct button don't they ?
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Adding it into this already very busy thread will make it almost impossible for newcomers to locate and benefit from. Thanks. |
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But I will reach a compromise and update the thread title with the post number which contains the uptodate information so it can be searched more easily. |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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One discussion thread, that'll quite likely extend to 20+ pages within a week and more once the new system goes live, and A second announcement thread -- sticky and closed so only Mods can post perhaps -- purely for a summary of what's been uncovered so far. Probably only half a dozen posts. If you came to the forum for the first time looking for vital information, which would you find easier? ymmv |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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You don't know my full address details as much as I don't know yours and I can search this site high and low - I will not find it because this site does not contain such information unless of course you have chosen to give this information out. |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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Username sirius i play games been here a while away you go tell me all the info you find about me ? |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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Not sure i'm happy about the opt-out process. Every time you clear your cookies you have to go to the site and request a new one? |
Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
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