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nomadking 29-08-2019 12:43
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
In the real world, there is this thing called "never say never". Eg you can't really say that you would never do X, as there will often be circumstances where you have little or no choice.

1andrew1 29-08-2019 13:42
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36007962)
In the real world, there is this thing called "never say never". Eg you can't really say that you would never do X, as there will often be circumstances where you have little or no choice.
Tell that one to the Chancellor! :D

https://twitter.com/TeamSaj/status/1...ament-11796583

Chris 29-08-2019 13:54
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36007965)
Tell that one to the Chancellor! :D

https://twitter.com/TeamSaj/status/1...ament-11796583
With regards to keeping things open enough not to be caught lying, they have planned the prorogation for a constitutionally recognised reason, and it will reopen 2 weeks before Brexit day. Sajid Javid can easily say he was talking about an arbitrary prorogation, rather than the usual constitutional means of ending a parliamentary session in order to bring forward a Queen’s Speech. Indeed the speculation during the summer has been about a prorogation lasting until 1 November. Such an act would lack political cover and make a successful legal challenge more likely.

Yes, it’s nefarious, it’s scheming, but it’s just the right side of legitimate that in the long run it’s hardly likely to present long-term problems for our democracy. In mid October Parliament will reopen, debates about Brexit will restart and everyone outside the political bubble will wonder, briefly, what the fuss was about, and then forget all about it. That is the political calculation Boris has made. I tend to think it’s accurate.

Hugh 29-08-2019 15:46
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36007962)
In the real world, there is this thing called "never say never". Eg you can't really say that you would never do X, as there will often be circumstances where you have little or no choice.
So you’re saying people can change their mind?

jfman 29-08-2019 16:01
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36007970)
So you’re saying people can change their mind?
Well played.

Hugh 29-08-2019 16:34
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
And, to bring a little levity to this heated and fraught discussion...

https://newsthump.com/2019/08/29/dis...62yOBtk_JiXf6s
Quote:
Dissolving the Imperial Senate is a routine event, insists Grand Moff Tarkin

Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin, Governor of the Outer Rim, has talked to journalists in order to defend Emperor Palpatine’s decision to dissolve the Imperial Senate and assured people that those calling it a coup were Rebel **** who wanted to thwart the will of the people.

The close ally of Palpatine insisted the dissolution was necessary to bring forward a broad legislative agenda that would ensure a crackdown on the Hutts, funding for bacta tanks and ambitious public work projects based around completely harmless artificial moons.

He explained, “The Emperor has a strong mandate based on sorting out that Jedi problem. We all know the senate was full of moaners who still won’t accept the end of the Republic, but this is simply an instrument to give us time to create the kind of Galactic Empire that we can all be proud of.

“Not everything is about the war against the Rebel Alliance. We have ambitious plans to develop intergalactic trade, free Holonet licences for over 75s and telling the Jawas that we’re not a soft touch anymore.”

Grand Moff Tarkin also explained that the dissolution was not an end in itself, and he and other close allies of the Emperor were ready to reach out to others in a spirit of cooperation.

“Darth Vader will be going on a grand ‘Listening’ tour of marginal star systems. He will be visiting planets like Tatooine and is very keen to find out who has objections to our plans.

“As for me, I’m off to Alderaan to show them exactly what we can achieve as long as we unite.”
https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/08/20.jpg

nomadking 29-08-2019 17:38
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36007970)
So you’re saying people can change their mind?
Circumstances can change. Has there been a "consensus in the House of Commons"? That was a pre-condition.


Link

Quote:
Labour's 2017 general election manifesto pledged to "accept the referendum result" - so for some this is a broken promise.
No pre-condition there, fulfilled or unfulfilled.

Sephiroth 29-08-2019 18:25
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36007927)
As has been explained many times on this forum by Chris and others, a Parliament cannot bind future Parliaments, and decisions of Parliament can be overturned by Parliament.

MPs doing their jobs (oversight of and holding to account the Executive) is not "anti-democratic" - it is the very basis of our Parliamentary Democracy.
I'm so disappointed in you. You completely overlook the fact that many if not most Parliamentarians are trying to subvert the Referendum result. That is anti-democratic. They are liars, pretending that they want to stop a no-deal Brexit when they really want to stop Brexit altogether.

And you'd be with them if you were an MP. Awful.

Hugh 29-08-2019 21:02
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36007976)
I'm so disappointed in you. You completely overlook the fact that many if not most Parliamentarians are trying to subvert the Referendum result. That is anti-democratic. They are liars, pretending that they want to stop a no-deal Brexit when they really want to stop Brexit altogether.

And you'd be with them if you were an MP. Awful.
And I’m disappointed in you, denying the basis of our Parliamentary Democracy.

But hey ho, somehow we will both manage to struggle on with the shadow of each others’ disappointment taking away our joy in life... ;)

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/08/1.gif

On that note, time for a large glass of red wine. :D

Sephiroth 29-08-2019 21:13
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36007989)
And I’m disappointed in you, denying the basis of our Parliamentary Democracy.

But hey ho, somehow we will both manage to struggle on with the shadow of each others’ disappointment taking away our joy in life... ;)

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1567105707

On that note, time for a large glass of red wine. :D
As I drink my glass of red wine ....

The issue between us is the superiority of direct democracy (authorised by Parliament) and Parliamentary democracy (when that institution subverts direct democracy).

Pierre 29-08-2019 21:45
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
I predict that on 1st November we still haven’t left the EU.

I hope that isn’t the case, but I fear it will be.

I’m not up to speed on his power but I think the speaker will do something, that stops us leaving, or enables others to stop us, which then forces his resignation - he’s due to leave anyway so he’ll go with a bang.

Then the only way out of this will be a GE, with the parties putting in Black and white what they will do, unequivocally.

Pre leave or post leave a GE is inevitable anyway, and I also believe that regardless of when, Boris will win, or at least not lose.

OLD BOY 29-08-2019 22:22
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36007993)
I predict that on 1st November we still haven’t left the EU.

I hope that isn’t the case, but I fear it will be.

I’m not up to speed on his power but I think the speaker will do something, that stops us leaving, or enables others to stop us, which then forces his resignation - he’s due to leave anyway so he’ll go with a bang.

Then the only way out of this will be a GE, with the parties putting in Black and white what they will do, unequivocally.

Pre leave or post leave a GE is inevitable anyway, and I also believe that regardless of when, Boris will win, or at least not lose.
I am more confident we will leave on Halloween than I was before, now Boris is in power.

Somebody may yet pull a rabbit out of the hat, but I can't think how!

jfman 29-08-2019 22:25
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36007993)
I predict that on 1st November we still haven’t left the EU.

I hope that isn’t the case, but I fear it will be.

I’m not up to speed on his power but I think the speaker will do something, that stops us leaving, or enables others to stop us, which then forces his resignation - he’s due to leave anyway so he’ll go with a bang.

Then the only way out of this will be a GE, with the parties putting in Black and white what they will do, unequivocally.

Pre leave or post leave a GE is inevitable anyway, and I also believe that regardless of when, Boris will win, or at least not lose.
Welcome to the club, Pierre.

Damien 29-08-2019 22:26
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36007993)
I predict that on 1st November we still haven’t left the EU.

I hope that isn’t the case, but I fear it will be.
I think we leave with a deal that has a 'reworded' backstop.

Quote:
I’m not up to speed on his power but I think the speaker will do something, that stops us leaving, or enables others to stop us, which then forces his resignation - he’s due to leave anyway so he’ll go with a bang.
I think the ideal situation for Boris Johnson is that Parliament does find a way to block No Deal and triggers a VoNC. He can then go the country saying he tried but was blocked from doing so, this is an ideal situation for squeezing out the Brexit Party.

The other alternatives aren't great:
  • Any election after No Deal Brexit? Unless No Deal does turn out to be fine any consequences for it will be placed at his feet. Especially after he would have tried so hard to make it happen.
  • An election after a Deal? Brexit Party will go after the Tories and he isn't winning votes from anywhere else.

Best case for him is an election before Brexit in which the Brexit Party are not a threat. Gives him breathing space to do a Deal and/or to ride out a negative impact on the economy. But he cannot be the one to have called the election.

Pierre 29-08-2019 22:29
Re: PM Boris forms a government
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36007996)
I am more confident we will leave on Halloween than I was before, now Boris is in power.

Somebody may yet pull a rabbit out of the hat, but I can't think how!
I think Corbyn is in a scenario similar to the most often mimicked scene from “ Downfall”.

He’s not guaranteed to win a vote of no confidence, so he’s reluctant.

Likewise the much vaunted General Election he wanted against T.May, that would have been close, is now looking very much less close under Boris.

So he is very impotent at the moment.

Apt.


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