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-   -   Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered ! (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33704414)

1andrew1 01-05-2017 11:19
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Interesting snippetts in this article.
Quote:
Last Wednesday, April 25th, May met the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, for dinner in London. Senior members of the British and EU negotiating teams were also present.
The dinner was a total disaster. But just how badly it went, at least from the European Commission’s point of view, has only just been revealed.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/frances.../#398ab5d4f046

Osem 01-05-2017 11:27
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35896829)
Anti EU feeling is not just in the UK it has been growing throughout western europe for the last decade and I wouldn't be so certain of the french choosing to stay in if they got a referendum. Germany too has a large minority that's also growing that want out of the EU although I don't believe they are remotely close to having enough votes for leave.
Monsieur Macron appears to agree:

Quote:
The front-runner in the French presidential election has told the BBC that the EU must reform or face the prospect of "Frexit".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39766334

Quote:
"But at the same time we have to face the situation, to listen to our people, and to listen to the fact that they are extremely angry today, impatient and the dysfunction of the EU is no more sustainable.
"So I do consider that my mandate, the day after, will be at the same time to reform in depth the European Union and our European project."
Mr Macron added that if he were to allow the EU to continue to function as it was would be a "betrayal".
But surely they'd be stupid to contemplate such a thing wouldn't they? It'd mean economic crisis, emergency budgets blah blah blah... That's what's been forced down our throats.

heero_yuy 01-05-2017 11:30
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
WELL, that’s a relief! Theresa May yesterday wiped the smiles off the faces of 27 jubilant EU leaders, hours after they celebrated a £50BILLION Brexit stitch-up.

The PM will stick by her vow to walk away from any deal with Brussels that seeks to punish or humiliate the United Kingdom.

Asked by the BBC’s Andrew Marr if she still believes “no deal is better than a bad deal”, she stoutly insisted: “Yes, I do.”

Her words will delight the millions who voted for Brexit — and the millions more she wants to woo with incessant promises of “strong and stable” leadership.

But they will go down like a cup of cold sick for those EU leaders cheering what they saw as a weekend victory over a wobbly Prime Minister.
Trevor Kavanagh

Osem 01-05-2017 11:39
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35896987)
She's right. The EU's concept of 'negotiation' is a one way street whereby they get everything they want. They're proving exactly what sort of club there's is and I can't help wondering why anyone would want to be remain part of it.

passingbat 01-05-2017 12:53
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35896984)
Interesting snippetts in this article.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/frances.../#398ab5d4f046

Why do you care so much about what the EU wants? It's what Britain wants that is important. You seem afraid of the opening bluster from the EU; ignore it. If it does turn out to be more than pre talks sabre rattling, then we just walk away. I know this is from Forbes, but much of the British press seems to be working on the side of the EU negotiators. Shameful.

Osem 01-05-2017 12:56
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35897001)
Why do you care so much about what the EU wants? It's what Britain wants that is important. You seem afraid of the opening bluster from the EU; ignore it. If it does turn out to be more than pre talks sabre rattling, then we just walk away. I know this is from Forbes, but much of the British press seems to be working on the side of the EU negotiators. Shameful.
:tu:

Hugh 01-05-2017 13:48
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35897001)
Why do you care so much about what the EU wants? It's what Britain wants that is important. You seem afraid of the opening bluster from the EU; ignore it. If it does turn out to be more than pre talks sabre rattling, then we just walk away. I know this is from Forbes, but much of the British press seems to be working on the side of the EU negotiators. Shameful.
If a country just 'walks away' from pre-agreed treaties and trade agreements, why would any other country trust it in the future with other treaties and trade agreements?

1andrew1 01-05-2017 13:54
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35897001)
Why do you care so much about what the EU wants? It's what Britain wants that is important. You seem afraid of the opening bluster from the EU; ignore it. If it does turn out to be more than pre talks sabre rattling, then we just walk away. I know this is from Forbes, but much of the British press seems to be working on the side of the EU negotiators. Shameful.
The article is useful background reading for anyone interested in Brexit. Similar articles are now appearing in other publications, the original article was in German. the whole process of the article being leaked to a German publication is of interest in itself.
But - all the large assumptions you make about my position cannot be drawn from a simple article link. Where have I suggested I'm afraid of anything? And why shouldn't we try and understand our negotiating counterparts' views?

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35897010)
If a country just 'walks away' from pre-agreed treaties and trade agreements, why would any other country trust it in the future with other treaties and trade agreements?
From a security point of view that's an incredibly dangerous thing to do.

Osem 01-05-2017 14:10
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35897010)
If a country just 'walks away' from pre-agreed treaties and trade agreements, why would any other country trust it in the future with other treaties and trade agreements?
Just walks away? Who's going to just walk away? You're making it sound as though they couldn't care less and aren't even going to try. There has to come a point when, if the two sides can't agree, then one, other or both walk away. If after protracted negotiations, the UK decides it can't accept what's being demanded of it how on earth is that 'just walking away'?

Maybe those countries you refer to will understand that the UK was forced into it by the utter intransigence of those they were supposed to be negotiating with in good faith. Maybe they'll look at the nature of those who were unreasonable and intransigent from the outset. Maybe they'll decide they're the ones who're not to be trusted and dealt with.

According to this curious form of logic the UK can't win - it effectively has to accept whatever's demanded of it by the EU because to reject that option would be to 'just walk away' and lose respect internationally. If indeed the UK is forced to reject an unacceptable deal it won't be just walking away and I'd say the UK gain a whole lot more respect from overseas than it does disdain.

1andrew1 01-05-2017 14:22
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35897015)
Just walks away? Who's going to just walk away? You're making it sound as though they couldn't care less and aren't even going to try. There has to come a point when, if the two sides can't agree, then one, other or both walk away. If after protracted negotiations, the UK decides it can't accept what's being demanded of it how on earth is that 'just walking away'?

Maybe those countries you refer to will understand that the UK was forced into it by the utter intransigence of those they were supposed to be negotiating with in good faith. Maybe they'll look at the nature of those who were unreasonable and intransigent from the outset. Maybe they'll decide they're the ones who're not to be trusted and dealt with.

According to this curious form of logic the UK can't win - it effectively has to accept whatever's demanded of it by the EU because to reject that option would be to 'just walk away' and lose respect internationally. If indeed the UK is forced to reject an unacceptable deal it won't be just walking away and I'd say the UK gain a whole lot more respect from overseas than it does disdain.
"just walk away" was a phrase used by passingbat, so your comments should be directed to him and not Hugh. Bewilderingly, you gave passingbat's comments which you now disagree with the thumbs up.

passingbat 01-05-2017 14:23
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35897010)
If a country just 'walks away' from pre-agreed treaties and trade agreements, why would any other country trust it in the future with other treaties and trade agreements?

If the EU are playing hard ball, we have to do the same. I suspect it's opening rhetoric, but it worries me that some news outlets are paying more attention and giving massive credence to what the EU wants rather than what Britain wants. Showing fear about the EU's demands weakens our negotiating stance. Lets be honest; some of the proponents of a soft Brexit, don't want a soft Brexit; they want to stay in the EU. And with a soft Brexit, we may as well have stayed in the EU.


Britain won't walk away from any outstanding commitments, but we will be walking away from a Federal States of Europe.

1andrew1 01-05-2017 14:33
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35897018)
If the EU are playing hard ball, we have to do the same. I suspect it's opening rhetoric, but it worries me that some news outlets are paying more attention and giving massive credence to what the EU wants rather than what Britain wants. Showing fear about the EU's demands weakens our negotiating stance. Lets be honest; some of the proponents of a soft Brexit, don't want a soft Brexit; they want to stay in the EU. And with a soft Brexit, we may as well have stayed in the EU.

Britain won't walk away from any outstanding commitments, but we will be walking away from a Federal States of Europe.
The EU has long-stated that its position of sorting out formulas for leaving and then talking about a trade deal as a third country and this is all in the public domain. Those are its rules, I don't think it's hard or soft ball, just reality.

passingbat 01-05-2017 14:44
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35897021)
The EU has long-stated that its position of sorting out formulas for leaving and then talking about a trade deal as a third country and this is all in the public domain. Those are its rules, I don't think it's hard or soft ball, just reality.

Well, we should tell them we don't like their rules. The 'divorce settlement' and talks on a trade deal should go hand in hand.

1andrew1 01-05-2017 15:10
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35897023)
Well, we should tell them we don't like their rules. The 'divorce settlement' and talks on a trade deal should go hand in hand.
Sure, we can tell them by all means but I wouldn't expect them to magically change them.
In reality, I suspect Theresa May will talk tough until the election and afterwards be quiet. Probably she will go for a Norwegian style temporary deal which will last the span of her parliamentry term and possibly longer A typical British fudge which probably more accurately reflects the mood of the nation than either staying in the EU or a cliff-edge Brexit would.
That being said, messages from the EU suggest they are gearing up for a more extreme Brexit than this so we'll have to see.
Interesting times.

passingbat 01-05-2017 15:42
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35896987)

Great article. Good bits from that article:


Quote:
But, like the nuclear deterrent, the threat to walk away must be part of her armoury. Unlike “weak and useless” Jeremy Corbyn, a truly “strong leader” must persuade the other side she will press the red button if necessary
Quote:
It would be deplorable if we had to cough up anything like £50billion — or surrender to the European Court of Justice or compromise on our absolute right to control our borders. It would be intolerable for Brussels to veto tax rates we might levy to boost global trade.
Quote:
When she says no deal is better than a bad deal, Theresa May must make it clear to Mrs Merkel she is not bluffing.


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