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True.

I do think one problem we have always had is a lack of understanding on how the people we elect actually work within the EU parliament.

Politics here are pretty much a 2 party system with some fringe groups (which can be right in the middle of the political spectrum). Where the EU is run on PR lines, with groupings according to general political flavour. So trying to explain how a multi party PR elected grouping works bears no relation to the old fashioned adversarial and undemocratic system we have for Westminster.

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There may not be a detailed public plan, Andrew, but if you really do not think that the EU, if it remains in tact for long enough, won't end up as the United States of Europe, you are definitely in the minority on that one.

In fact, it is the only way this failed project ever has the chance of working, and given the type of 'democracy' it will be, I wouldn't wish to be a part of it.

---------- Post added at 08:04 ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 ----------

Proportional representation leads to weak coalition style governments in perpetuity. We have one at the moment, due to a lack of a majority in the House of Commons, and look at how irritated we all are with that. Fortunately, issues such as these do not occur very often and it is when we have a strong government we are most successful.

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I don't. Can you quote the relevant passage and link to it, please?

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Is that not a United States of Europe?

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...17-3165_en.htm

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Go find it and read it for yourself, please. Might also be on a BBC newsclip.

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If you're trying to prove a point, that's one way of not doing it.

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The five most healthy and stable governments have PR. Consensus builds in voter engagement and long term planning. With the political swings less extreme governments have to listen to the electorate. Every vote matters.

What we have is not a PR elected system. No one in GB could not vote for any of the candidates currently propping up the Tories. Much as no one anywhere but Scotland could vote for the SNP. Yet because of these area specific parties we have a messy and inconclusive confidence & supply arrangement, with a party that cannot bend enough to run the NI government.


When 57% of Cornwall did not vote Tory, why should they have 100% Tory representation? This is neither representative or democratic.

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[QUOTE=Angua;35964377]The five most healthy and stable governments have PR. Consensus builds in voter engagement and long term planning. With the political swings less extreme governments have to listen to the electorate. Every vote matters.

What we have is not a PR elected system. No one in GB could not vote for any of the candidates currently propping up the Tories. Much as no one anywhere but Scotland could vote for the SNP. Yet because of these area specific parties we have a messy and inconclusive confidence & supply arrangement, with a party that cannot bend enough to run the NI government.


When 57% of Cornwall did not vote Tory, why should they have 100% Tory representation? This is neither representative or democratic.[/QUOTE]

Because that's what the majority voted for as their selected political party.

I'm not sure which countries you have in mind when you talk about 'the five most healthy and stable governments'. They might be 'stable' because no-one can ever change anything.

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Well we had the chance for PR, The LibDems forced a referendum post 2010 election, prior to it public opinion was in favour. However the 2 main parties and their media pals vigorously campaigned against and the sheeple obeyed.

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Not surprised you can see nothing wrong with our broken democracy. Change when gradual is still change, but the benefits are in long term planning. Rather than lurching from election to election spending half the time undoing what the previous incumbents did, screwing too much up in the process.

Consensus government means people can choose what suits them, rather than choosing X because they think Y is worse, but not really approving of X either.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

Arrrrggggggghhhhhh!!

The 2011 Alternative Vote (AV) Referendum was on a system which, by David Cameron's own admission, is often less proportional than FPTP. If AV had been used in 2015 it would have given the Conservatives an even larger majority on the same vote share (according to analysis by the Electoral Reform Society).

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Well, yes, the Tories made sure of that !

totally agree with you btw, the system is broken. Although I'm certainly no fan of them, UKIP, in the 2015 election got 13% of the vote and 0.15% of the MPs !

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Why the stuck record of "we had a vote on PR" is really a nonsense because we have never had a proper vote on genuine PR systems.

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Well, apparently you can only have one go, because circumstances never change...

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You wouldn't be trying to bring this thread back to Brexit would you Hugh ? ;) It'll end in an argument, i can guarantee...

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The problems with PR are that you have weak government, nothing moves very fast and nobody gets the policies they voted for because there is a permanent coalition.