Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All seem to be back on Gyron but as stated on BT Forum, probably left Web site mirrors at netcraft.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe in the covert surveillance world it's called tradecraft. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hank just used IE7 and works but i am using XP pro

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm still here, been here since post no 1..
Its been a fantastic read and an education, I am spreading the word and have educated many people on this subject.

Thanks to all of you, keep up the good work.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apols for the cross posting, but this is important, I think...

Please can someone else confirm this analysis.

I've been accessing www.webwise.com from the PSInet server 38.105.138.154 (using a modified hosts file) and comparing the results with the Gyron server 89.145.112.32 (using standard DNS).

The results are really interesting.

I think someone is taking the PIIs (personally identifiable information)..

Here's why.

If I connect direct to the Gyron server (89.145.112.32), and capture the traffic I see this (note the date and last modified fields);

GET htt p://www.webwise.com/style.css HTTP/1.1
<snip irrelevant headers>

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:25:21 GMT << EXACT SAME DATE AS BELOW
Server: Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat)
Last-Modified: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:25:21 GMT << EXACT SAME DATE AS ABOVE
<snip irrelevant headers>

Now if I request the same document from the PSInet server (38.105.138.154) I get this;

GET htt p://www.webwise.com/style.css HTTP/1.1
<snip irrelevant headers>

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:03:02 GMT << CURRENT DATE, DIFFERENT TO DATE BELOW
Server: Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat)
Last-Modified: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 21:33:39 GMT << HISTORIC DATE, DIFFERENT TO DATE ABOVE
<snip irrelevant headers>

The date header is used to indicate the server's current system time. The last-modified header should indicate when the file was last changed (to facilitate browser caching etc).

What I suspect is going on here is this. First the date header indicates the server at Gyron is set to a date in November 2007. If so, that's just an amateurish schoolboy type error.

But second, I believe the machine at Gyron may be acting at as proxy for the server in PSInet... Why? Because the last modified date exactly matches the server date when the file is requested from Gyron. In other words, I suspect it is a proxy server that knows nothing about the creation date of the original file. It is simply reporting the server local date/time for current date AND last modified date.

This is most important, because if my analysis is correct, it would obviously be deceptive to claim that data was being handled in the UK (because it was being proxied to the USA).

So please, can anyone confirm the analysis?

Or BT if you're reading this, please explain?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks! No, I sing in a barbershop quartet and love close vocal harmony -- hence the name funchords.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a letter I'm drafting to Ian Livingston. Any suggestions for improvement would be welcome.

So ... Comments?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If this is true then Kent is still upto something and trying to make it look legal he must think that people in England are thick wonder where he got that from... Oh yes BT since they think it is impossible to explain about phorm as it is too technical for customers and shareholders....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Err, more PIIs taking.

I repeated the test above for webwise.bt.com.

From Gyron servers (no modification to hosts file);

GET http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/css/global.css HTTP/1.1
<snip irrelevant headers>

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:16:54 GMT << SAME DATE TIME AS BELOW
Server: Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat)
Last-Modified: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:16:54 GMT << SAME DATE TIME AS ABOVE
<snip irrelevant headers>

Using PSInet address (38.105.138.154)

GET http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/css/global.css HTTP/1.1
<snip irrelevant headers>

HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:03:43 GMT << CURRENT DATE
Server: Apache/2.2.3 (Red Hat)
Last-Modified: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:09:47 GMT << HISTORIC DATE
<snip irrelevant headers>

Looks a lot like the Gyron server is a proxy to me.

Please anyone able to confirm my analysis and opinion?

If I'm right this is worse than very bad. Its more bad than a bad thing on a bad day in a bad year.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

deleted :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

im trying to work out how best to determine if it is, the best way i think is to ask the Wireshark people on IRC perhaps ?.

im not good with it (mear layman infact), but several wireshark "proxy" plug-in's exist apparently (but the one's i found were pay for add on's) and if anything can help us, Wireshark will probably be the App to use (if we can get some basic step by step training etc).

i assume the WS guys dont like this Phorm/NebuAd any more than we do, so hope they will be more than willing to help in the tech side, and perhaps capture, or even write a new plug-in extension if one doesnt already exist...for Phorm/NebuAd etc as information comes to light.

"DePhormation Pete" carrys a lot of sway alongside many others here, perhaps you can go and ask them to help in real time IRC, or point you in the right direction at least,

here ?
"An IRC channel dedicated to Wireshark can be found at irc://irc.freenode.net/wireshark. "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The date on servers should be set via NTP on a cron job, important that timestamps match when reporting abuse or investigating a system compromise. I wouldn't call it a schoolboy error, I'd call it plain sloppy.

If one of the servers is acting as a proxy, wouldn't it have the mtime from the others HTTP header?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My initial thought when I first read stuff like that was that they might be doing something a bit questionable like permanently storing hashes of users cookies for popular sites or even doing the same with email account log-ins, (basically the more obvious techniques available to MITM exploits to passively track multiple users) so I was relieved to read about the use of a master tracking cookie!

I'm still puzzled why the a.faireagle and b.faireagle cookies they set when I've visited the opt-in page are different http://pathogenrush.blogspot.com/200...s-opt-out.html - my best guess was it might be some kind of hash from the IP address and either the time or a counter. Perhaps they don't even use the b subdomain cookies they set. Phorm have "a", "b", and "c" webwise.net subdomains but apparently only use a.webwise.net.


A user might fo a fair amount of time and do quite an amount of browsing without visiting a site carrying a Nebuad advert - I guess you could track a user if he follows link to other sites by checking for the referal header, but once he enters a URL in address bar you'd no longer be certain if it was the same user, or another user at the same address sharing the connection, or even if the IP address has been freed-up and allocated to another user. This could result in a lot of valuable data either being discarded or allocated to the wrong user. So it would make sense to at least ocassionally inject some code, or use a redirection, or even keep hashes of user's cookies for popular sites.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ooooohh. Where? Where?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for your instrukshons I have Killd Ded http://www.webwise.com Yip Eeeeeeeeeee :D IOU :beer:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I managed to attribute the previous quote to the wrong New York Times blog entry about NebuAd. It should have been:

NebuAd Observes ‘Useful, but Innocuous’ Web Browsing

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/23.png Mr. Dykes said that the company also examines other information about users’ computers in order to identify when an I.P. address is changed. But he declined to explain what that information is and how it is used. https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/24.png

Dykes also goes on about the benefits of the vagueness inherent in using only IP addresses. That article is dated early in April. It looks like things have moved on. I remember being puzzled by:

Infighting At ISPs Over Using NebuAD

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/23.png I’m told NebuAD is even able to build profiles of individual people using the same IP address (ex: users behind a NAT device). https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/24.png

While it may have once been an IP address tracker, it certainly looks like a cookie tracker now. As you say, it’s not how often you can read the cookie, but when you read it. You only have to read the cookie when there is no referrer header. You can link up all the subsequent pages, with a high degree of reliability, using only the IP address and later referrer headers. You’ll have a root page and a fairly sparse tree.


I imagine only a handful of such root pages cover a very large proportion of all web browsing graphs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Today @

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...et-851133.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's an absurd statement in that article

"Phorm's model... brings ISPs into a value chain that didn't exist before"

ISPs add little or no value to the transmission of page content from a site to its visitors.

And they impair that value chain by spying on it and corrupting the integrity of it.

This has to be stopped. Absolutely has to be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Privacy concerns are the biggest hurdle because the system tracks people's movements. Earlier this year critics branded the system "illegal", but the Information Commissioner says that, while developments will be monitored, "there does not appear to be any detriment to users".

So loss of privacy is not detrimental then.
So loss of trade to none OIX websites is not a detriment then.
So profiling protected none https website areas is not a detriment then.

I could go on - see you all at the protest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Everyday it seems that I have reason to bang my head against the keyboard in disgust at the prospect of phorm going live.
Been lurking and reading and informing family, friends and collegues about this. None of them think it is a good idea. Most are not currently on BT but a couple are on Virgin so I have told to keep there ears open, because it could be coming.

I had the same respone from my MP as Hank got a couple of pages ago. Hogwash and twaddle.

I have been trying to keep a low profile in the hope that BT will ask me to particapte in their "official" trail. Have a laptop at home that is clean with nothing on it but the basics waiting to see what kind of fudge BT/phorm try to put in it.
If, and I hope I am, invited to the trail, any and all information will become available to the anti-phorm/dpi community.

Everyone keep up the good work.

As much as I would love to come to London for the demonstration, work will not allow me the time off. If there is anything I can do quitely from work, let me know and I will do my best on the day. Otherwise letters keep going out to the relevant people.

As they say in Canada, phorm, take off eh! you hoosier.
Yes, I am a canuck, but now live in england. Short explanation is wife.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually I think the recommended method these days is using the ntpd daemon in continuous mode. </pedant>

Just having the clock set to the right year would be a start though. Very amateurish and probably a symptom of a rushed job.

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

I don't think much of their editor. Shouldn't that be:

?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see that Alex Hanff, the Anorak in Chief, is suggesting that I have been posting on this site in support of Phorm.
Once again, Alex is incorrect. This is my first post on this forum. But Alex is no stranger to unsubstantiated inaccuracies.

If you want to read more about Alex, try this link for an amusing read :

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...apitalone.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As usual it doesn't make it clear that it is the content that is analysed, not the destinations. Also I see that the Ertugral spin of the day has changed to "We are not tracking everywhere you go or everything you do" - WHICH IS CLEARLY A LIE - rather than the previous more honest boasting that "We can see the whole Internet".

I bet BT customers are pleased to read about the 'imminent' trials first in the press rather than direct from BT.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

.. and your point is ??

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Hello WagonWheel welcome to our forum :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see... another attempt at humiliation HamsterWheel... tried before, failed before...

Go back under your rock please....:mad:

EDIT:

NOTE TO MEMBERS AND READERS: HamsterWheel is Pro Phorm. He is inaccurate and is here to stir things up, as he has done with many Forums concerning the subject - ignore him.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My point was to deny that I had been posting on here, as the Arch-anorak had claimed.
I am sorry that you could not understand that - let me know the names of the educational establishments you attended and I will write to the Government and demand their closure.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just got a reply from my MP (Patrick Hall - Labour - Bedford) who said it will recieve attention.

Well thats OK then.

I see HW has popped up, unable to defend the technology so attacks people, what a nice man.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're funny - I bet you keep your m8ts in the classroom in stitches all day :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Greetings HamsterWheel. Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure what the relevance of your post is. This thread is about a company called Phorm, not a person called Alex.

I also don't see where the unsubstantiated inaccuracies are in the thread you linked to? I must admit I didn't read all of it though. It didn't really interest me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@hamsterwheel
The only people on the net supporting phorm webwise are those who have a vested interest, either phorms PR crew or investors who have lost a lot of money on this BS.
Across the entire internet no-one has yet given a reasoned, valid argument as to why any USER would want this spyware.

Care to try?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - he's a pinnacle of Society. It's good to see that he has embraced Phorm the way he has - his fall will be so much sweeter to witness :D

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am indeed pro Phorm. Whilst that may not sit well with you that's just tough.
If you are only able to see one side of the issue then you will fail miserably in your mission.
Phorm is only a means of getting more relevant adverts to internet users. Laudable as people's privacy concerns are, they simply don't stack up. As the ICO agree.

Try going and finding a proper issue to worry about - starving kids in Africa or mines or something.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: phpscott to the forum and thank you for posting leting us know you are with us. A lot of people will find it hard to get to London I will due to mobility waiting for a knee operation without it walking is difficult but my little bit is the use of BT shares been rattling the cage from that side.

I do really have a big complaint though thye keep going on about the infrastructure blah blah blah..

Well if money was diverted to updating this it wouldn't be such a bottleneck, after all are they not saying if workers go for high payraises the rate of inflatioin will spirall out of control.. Isn't a pay rise from £654,000 to €850,000 going too far bonuses in the hundred thousands. The fat cats get fatter make infaltion go high and the poor people suffer everytime......

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello Phorm PR. See you are back in force today. Typical of yourselves spreading smoke and mirrors. Phorm is illegal and you WILL be held to account!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Difference between you and Alex is alex was open with us at the start over his past you on the other hand hide it in a glossy CV.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We have seen some bravado in recent days from the pro Phorm lobby I personally am getting bored every Friday we see articles clearly to bolster the end week share price, and as soon as Alex said he would be away for a while the dross poke there heads out.Most of these utterances strike me as the last swipe of a failing regime slinging its hook!!
I sincerely hope so.
TGLS Bob

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well it seems we may have got you worried enough to post here, pity you cannot confine yourself to the issues instead of making personal attacks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If Hamsterwheel is infact Kent perhaps that could be said of you go find a proper job instead of leeching off peoples surfing habits.Also Alexander isn't scared to post under his real name that cannot be said for you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Hammy,

Made my day that you have come to the board, you been lurking long ?

I see the share price is flying now that the trials are starting.. Well so some novice said in the indie.

EDIT: we must stop feeding the trolls, so hard to resist isn't it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the barron - as I said, I only posted as I'd been blamed for all the pro-Phorm comments on here.
If Alex and chums have a pop at me, and this is the same Alex who threatened to hit me if I turned up at his demo, then I reserve the right to respond.

---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 ----------

Deko - so lad to see you can post something other than "Doomed".

Share price up again today, like it has been all week :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's new? They lied to the Home Office too.

Phorm – Webwise and Open Internet Exchange

"Furthermore the Commissioner’s views are based on the current understanding of the Phorm products before the upcoming trial or roll out by any of the ISP have taken place which should provide more information about their use in practice."

We'll just have too see - won't we...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When will you understand you are not in charge of the Great British public what rites do you think you have to demand the closure of an educational establishment.

We are free to think, move, speak we are not held to ransom by the ravings of a person who has tried many times to take over everyone’s computers and failed....

Lets be honest now how many bright ideas have you started and lost money on, we do know of some but the exact figure would be nice for reference.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That must happen often to you - why haven't you got used to it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey Phorm (ooops gave away your secret Hamster?)

Just some food for thought for you - I am mirroring Alex, as are hundreds of people. He is NOT your threat - WE are your threat.

C'mon, dig some dirt on me - put it in the public eye. Humiliate me - lets see if you and your quickly falling Empire can do it.

BTW, the NMAP Scan was a nice touch, as were the 200 attempts to access my PC last week - lol. (not aimed at anyone in particular - just running away with the keyboard)

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well if you are too scared to use your correct name and so many new accounts getting added.

Wonder what will happen when the adds get blocked as we all do and many request mac codes to move elsewhere to suppliers that will not use your system.

On a thought are you still solvent after all was it 500,000 shares you used as security for a loan when they were around £30 a share so I presume you are technically broke if they call in the payments due to the high fall in price....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hamsterwheel is quite a good descriptive Alias. Lots of running on the spot and definitely Phorm will be going nowhere.

Is is Friday? I just realised it is. It's shore the price up day! Happens every week.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Florence - I am not phorm or Kent or Phorm's PR.
I'm an ordinary shareholder who thinks Phorm is a good investment and does not impinge everyone's privacy in any meaningful way.

Even Alex (who posts on my board frequently) does not think I'm Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which unsubstantiated inaccuracies are you referring to (specifically). I read that whole thread and couldn't see what you were getting at.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm still looking forward to a convincing and reasoned debate about why we should embrace this system and what good it will do .. but there doesn't seem to be anyone out there who can do it!

Lets give Hamsterwheel a chance to try and convince us .. we are reasonable people open to discussion ..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He stopped posting on ADVFN because you're concept of debate is to hurl personal insults isn't it?

I gave up doing that before puberty - what happened to you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I have an hospital appointment so will miss most of this have fun keep it clean.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Paul - Alex was the one with the personal threats on ADVFN.
Pot, kettle.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And, of course, you can't imagine what you may have said to provoke him?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Paul - Alex gives as good as he gets.
If he can't cope with the flak he gets back, that's his problem.
I've never threatened him.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hamster are you on BT ADSL ?

EDIT: Can a MOD see if his IP is on BT-central's range ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bearing in mind that the majority of antiphorm writers on this site are either IT specialists or have legal vocations, I really cannot think how an ordinary investor (without any of these skills), can put up any technical or legal argument that could convince us otherwise.

Every independent legal analysis I have seen (Those not in the pay of Phorm or hold shares in Phorm) clearly have shown its illegal. Don't quote American legal analysis. it doesn't wash over here. Different legal system.

BT have stated they have legal advice. What they have not stated is where that legal advice comes from!

Again, independent IT persons (again not in the pay of Phorm) who have studied the system also verify this via their analysis. You have a motive for supporting Phorm if you are an investor. My advice would be for you to sell because in the long term Phorm will be gone!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some interesting reading
http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp...921&sort=whole

What's good for the goose and all that. Having read that little thread I can only conclude that Hamsterwheel understands only what he's been told about the technology and methods used in the Phorm business model. Just another PR junkie.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did see someone was trying to promote the interests of kids a while back, using internet ads.

Then someone mean and heartless took those ads and overwrote them with ads for Weight Watchers and credit cards. It was despicable. I hope they catch the culprit.

I'm glad we can agree on the relative merits of those causes. It is important to help starving children in Africa. I hope the paragraph below doesn't get overwritten;

SOS Childrens Villages
"Our main role is helping children whose parents are not there for them. They may be AIDS orphans, street children, child soldiers or children orphaned by war, poverty or natural disasters. We give these children a mother and a family in a home within an SOS Children's village. In places where there is a high rate of child abandonment, we run programmes to help strengthen vulnerable families and keep them together."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Deko - I see you are now trying to track my ISP - so much for privacy.
How two-faced.

---------- Post added at 09:51 ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 ----------

Dephormation - be careful. As I'm sure you're aware, Phorm actually paid for ads for charities. Alex fell into that trap too, and had to apologise to Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@ Hammy

When you sign up here you IP will be recorded during posting (as required by law) the mods can see this IP only.

This is T&C's of the site whihc you agreed to, I was just wonder if you are on BT will you enable webwise if it ever go's live ?

are you happy to be profiled and have all your weby stuff intercepted and sold for money while you do not get any benefit at all?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yawn.

As has been said before:

Let's have something concrete and tangible from the rodent to explain:

- why Phorm is legal,
- why the notable individuals and organisations are wrong,
- where the legal advice provided to people like Phorm and BT came from and why it isn't being proffered every chance they get to kill this point stone dead

without even starting on:

- why we should trust Phorm at all in the absence of the above (company history, omission of info to HO, secret BT trials, spin of info from HO, hosting shenanigans etc etc)
- why has the BT trial been delayed since March
- why have VM (to an extent) and the Guardian (totally) distanced themselves from the product
- why did CPW feel it necessary to change the way they are looking to implement the system
- why the share price has gone tank tank tankety tank over the last few months

and on it goes....

I mean really - let's have it - I think everyone on here would love the chance to debate the issues with a pro-phormer. As (again) has been said before - the lack of such debate suggests that there is no interest in doing so because there are no good answers. No-one wants to turn up to a debate if they know in advance they are just going to be made to look entirely foolish, do they?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

from http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp...845&sort=whole
from http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp...845&sort=whole
from http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp...921&sort=whole
Laugh or cry, take your pick :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

- why Phorm is legal, BECAUSE NO-ONE HAS PROVED THAT IT IS NOT
- why the notable individuals and organisations are wrong, THESE ARE ORGANISATIONS WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO SAY NO TO EVERYTHING, SO OF COURSE THEY WILL BE ANTI-EVERYTHING, THE LUDDITES.
- where the legal advice provided to people like Phorm and BT came from and why it isn't being proffered every chance they get to kill this point stone dead THAT WILL BE COMMERCIALLY CONFIDENTIAL, YOU KNOW, PRIVATE !

without even starting on:

- why we should trust Phorm at all in the absence of the above (company history, omission of info to HO, secret BT trials, spin of info from HO, hosting shenanigans etc etc) BECAUSE ICO WHOSE JOB IT IS TO MONITOR ARE HAPPY WITH PHORM
- why has the BT trial been delayed since March NO DOUBT SO MORE CONTROLS AND OPT-OUTS CAN BE INCORPORATED TO KEEP YOU LOT LESS UNHAPPY
- why have VM (to an extent) and the Guardian (totally) distanced themselves from the product BECAUSE THEY ARE WIMPS WHO WILL SOON ADOPT ONCE THE DOSH ROLLS IN TO BT ETC.
- why did CPW feel it necessary to change the way they are looking to implement the system THEY ARE ENTITLED TO DO WHAT THEY WANT - THE TECH IS EVOLVING
- why the share price has gone tank tank tankety tank over the last few months ERR, SO HAVE THE MARKETS, AND SURELY THIS IS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU PRIVACY WORRIERS, BUT BEST LEFT TO INVESTORS TO DISCUSS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've read the report Hamster. I know what they did.

Go on, threaten me with legal action..

"The advertisements were used to replaced [sic] a 'default' charity advertisement (one of Oxfam, Make Trade Fair or SOS Children's Villages)"

Charity ads promoting the interests of STARVING CHILDREN were over written by ads for WEIGHT WATCHERS.

Let me write that again for you.

Malnourished and STARVING CHILDREN were deprived of charity donations to allow Phorm to profit from selling advertising to fat overweight people who might join WEIGHT WATCHERS.

:sick:
:sick:
:sick:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok clear this up then - did Phorm pay for the space these Charities use so they could overwrite with alternative adverts?

NVM Dephor has it.

If Phorm acted as above - they prevented the message being spread to those who could have helped. The revenues they would have received would NOT compensate the Charities for larger donations than the Funds that exchanged hands - and DEFINATELY not compensate for the professionals who at that time would have volunteered their services to help.

If this is correct - it DOESN'T matter how its glossed up - it's a dispicable act.

Oh yeah - SUE ME PHORM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is this you?
http://digg.com/users/HamsterWheel/history/diggs

Joined 2nd June and Digg!ng every anti-phorm story there is to Digg!?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apparently they paid for the space, then put adverts for charities on the bits they didn't use for Phorm, so the charities got some free adverts.
Which is apparently why Alex was happy to withdraw his accusations.

So far from stealing ads from charities, they bought them some.

I'm sure Alex will correct me if I am wrong.

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

BetBlowWhistler - that's not me on Digg.
I guess it's someone's attempt at a joke.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So hammy once again are you willing to have phorm/webwise on your ISP account ?

Will you opt-in to it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, HamsterWheel, playing the man and not the ball eh? Are you Sir Humphrey Appleby in disguise?;);):D

Now, crawl back from under whichever stone you appeared from - there's a good little chap.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the subject of ads and Phorms abuse of them ..

Can you really trust a company whose boss comes out with garbage like this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wow - I take it all back - I'm completely convinced - there was nearly an actual answer in that lot.

I am very much enjoying:

"BECAUSE NO-ONE HAS PROVED THAT IT IS NOT" - not only is that the sort of thing i'd be disappointed in if i heard it on a playground but it ignores the fact that several people have done exactly that. It's a 'twofor' - embarrasingly constructed AND incorrect. Bargain.

"THESE ARE ORGANISATIONS WHOSE PURPOSE IS TO SAY NO TO EVERYTHING, SO OF COURSE THEY WILL BE ANTI-EVERYTHING, THE LUDDITES." - and you expect to be taken seriously because?

"BECAUSE THEY ARE WIMPS WHO WILL SOON ADOPT ONCE THE DOSH ROLLS IN TO BT ETC." - i know, i know - it's the same point as above but it's such a big point that i felt it was worth making twice...

oh and it also happens to lead nicely into...

"THEY ARE ENTITLED TO DO WHAT THEY WANT - THE TECH IS EVOLVING" - of course they are, what confuses me is why they would willingly choose to dramatically reduce the potential amount of 'DOSH' they will be receiving by making these changes - unless of course there is something inherently problematic with the way that the system was originally set up. Which, as someone in a wheel will hopefully appreciate, brings us back in a nice big circle to the whole legality issue...

"THAT WILL BE COMMERCIALLY CONFIDENTIAL, YOU KNOW, PRIVATE !" - the irony has not escaped me (whether you intended it or not) but I'm presuming this is a guess on your part - why would they keep something like that back? it simply doesn't make sense - all Phorm's legal problems can be solved by publishing the legal advice they got and they refuse to do so? Sorry, doesn't track. At all.

I'd go through the rest of your points but it's not really serving any purpose to do so.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No. Sorry, won't let you off the hook there.

They bought a charity advertising campaign, then in their own words replaced the 'default' charity ads for Oxfam, Make Trade Fair or SOS Childrens Villages with their contextual ads (see bottom page 7/52).

So adverts that would have been shown, adverts that might have elicited donations of money to feed STARVING CHILDREN were replaced by adverts for WEIGHT WATCHERS.

:sick:

So tell me all about your concern for starving children while you count your shares.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hamster, I actually agree with many of your points, which has lead to a blazing row with Alex many pages back, but I have been campaigning against Phorm and still am.

Why? Because any third party which is allowed to plug proprietary information gathering equipment directly into an ISP sets a really dangerous precedent. We only have Phorm’s word over what they actually do, it’s too complex to regulate.

Once Phorm get in, and I trust a lot of what Phorm say about privacy, then along will come NebuAd and all the other data rapers. Each will be under increasing pressure to compete with the features of one another, some will perhaps only pay lip-service to privacy issues in a bid to get ahead.

I repeat – who will regulate all these wannabe data pimps? Who will inspect 10 or 20 proprietary machines with constant software updates installed in ISP data centres throughout the UK? What about data security?

What about the fact that Phorm mangles your HTTP stream and threatens to break some application which rely on a direct answer to HTTP GET, not THREE REDIRECTS?!

Whilst some if not all of the legal arguments against Phorm are untested, one stands out: RIPA.

As a nation we either choose to respect the sanctity of personal communications or not. There’s no in-between. There can’t be, because the sector is too complex to regulate.

Your ISP carries personal communications, as a country we either respect that, in which case we don’t allow advertisers to tap the communications in exactly the same way that phone conversations and private mail is respected, or we allow the advertisers in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fair enough, but I did notice you selling shares though..

PHRM Phorm Reg-s HamsterWheel 21/05/07 1720.00p 1050p 0 01/01/0001 00:00:00 1050p -39.0% SOLD 30/05/07 2175.00p 26.5% £10,000 £12,537 £2,537

Glad to see you made a profit :) Seriously, I don't give a stuff about Phorm really, I just want to make sure that people are informed of what the technology does (if that's possible) what it does and have the option of not having it anywhere near them.

The only serious answer is to drop your ISP if they implement this. I noticed from one of your postings that you weren't overly happy about the Big Brother connotations of the technology either, but that you were more than happy to have it for more relevant adverts.

Well, that's fine, you have made an informed decision. Now let's extend that to all those poor saps who were spied on for profit, aka BT customers.

[edit - I know I'm glossing over the web site copyright aspect here a bit]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something else to clear up, does the Profiler only Profile on Port 80?

If this is the case then Web Servers can alter the Main Web Page to direct all other parts of the site to another Port.
Typically say 443 or 8080, 443 because although this is normally used for SSL there is no reason not to use it for non SSL as well.

A small change to every referenced Web Page "http://website:443" would achieve this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firstly - this chat is nothing to do with Alex, and if you continue to reference Alex I will recommend that he files a suit against you for Defam and Slander. Its you and I homie!!

Secondly, looking at the workings, as described by BT, it appears that the advertising space was bought by Phorm to replace the Charities ads.

This was no doubt a vain attempt to gain public trust, as they would be seen to be working with Charities - but I can assure you THIS IS NOT working with Charities.

The point of a Charity is to give; not to take. If the description BT have given is correct, then Phorm approached the Charities with a Commercial Offer, which is NOT CHARITABLE - it is business.

If they wanted to appear to be CHARITABLE, they should have donated to the Charity; bought space from other advertisers - and then advertised the Charities.

@BT and Phorm: This is based on your description. If the interpretation is incorrect, it is due to your incompentance when writing, and subsequently allowing the leak of the report. YOUR OWN RESPONSIBLITY - YOUR OWN FALIBILTY - YOUR PROBLEM. TRY SUE ME...

(B4 complaint: Homie is reference to Homeboy - USA Slang term)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The IP being used by any poster here is not something for public announcement. The poster can declare it if they wish, but the CF Team will not. We only use it for moderation purposes.

I would remind people again that we do not take kindly to flaming and abuse of forum users or indeed insulting and derogatory remarks made about anyone. I know many of you feel strongly about Phorm. That is no reason to jump down the throat of anyone who comes here to defend it. Debate the posts made and demonstrate what is wrong with the posts, but don't start slinging mud.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yup - I'll be happy to opt in.

Why ?

Take this site - www.autoblog.com One I look at frequently. The ads are always for women's dresses, so a waste of time sticking them in front of me and the site would make a lot more dosh if it served up targeted ads. So it could invest in more content.

That's what the next phase of the internet is all about - monetising good content. Phorm enables this to happen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Personally I do believe you are an investor in Phorm, but I suspect you also answer to the name of one of the Phorm's management team.

Possibly even Kent himself! If you were him you would be telling no untruths in this case, Kent has invested quite a lot of money in Phorm! (PS the shares have dropped enormously in the last couple of months).

You do seem to have all the Phorm smoke and Mirror spin 'off to pat' as we would say. We will have the last laugh though!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've said I'm not from phorm - only connection is as a shareholder.
If you wish to believe otherwise there's not a lot I can do about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

better get your self a better ad remover most browsers have that option just turn it on or plug it in and them dresses will vanish.
btw phorm going live we jumping ship to a none phorm isp, bt will lose out on our monthly fees for isp, vision, and fusion and losing a fon access point in a village so more money lost, and no ads served no profile sold all must add up to a loss.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh a bleedin scouser, might have guessed

A Foolish Interview with HamsterWheel


The Fool: Make a confession.
HamsterWheel: Not without a solicitor, once bitten...
The Fool: If you had enough money so you need not work anymore, what would you do all day, and would you be truely happy?
HamsterWheel: I do have enough, but want more to get a better way of doing nowt all day long
The Fool: Your most heroic moment in life?
HamsterWheel: Resuscitating someone on a glacier in Patagonia. Ingrate bit me whilst I was retrieving his swallowed tongue...
The Fool: If you could change one thing about your workplace, corporate culture, or family life, what would it be?
HamsterWheel: Lucky enough to work with a fabulous piratical bunch of buccaneering entrepreneurs, no changes needed at work or at home.
The Fool: What's been your best investment to date and how did you discover it?
HamsterWheel: SAYE scheme where I used to work - 8 bagger on £15k with no tax and no risk ;-)
The Fool: List some of your favourite websites, with running commentary where appropriate. (Please provide the URLs, too.)
HamsterWheel: Boring question
The Fool: If you would like to list the companies in which you hold shares, do it here. If not just say no.
HamsterWheel: List would be incomplete so no point
The Fool: What are your three favourite words?
HamsterWheel: WON it FIVE TIMES

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see you're all searching all over the place for info on me.
privacy my ar5e !!


By the way, those share "purchases" that were posted. They are not purchases at all, simply guesses in a share price movement competition board.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So the government will merely have to pay Phorm to get access to your web browsing habits rather than be required to obtain a court warrant as the law currently stands, or rather, they'd have to join the back of the queue.

That's dangerous...

But you and I would be blissfully unaware that this was happening as it wouldn't be disclosed because it's PRIVATE.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

post deleted. irrelevant

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

really, i am just that bored!

http://www.mygame.com/game/277567

i got 4200 points! i feel better

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well now you know what it feels like to be 'phormed'! ..

Seriously though, I think it's to have 'pro-phormers' such as yourself around here .. we should be open to all as long as it's a reasonable discussion with no insults/flaming etc .. I'm all for listening to all sides of an argument ..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HM Just a sad sap stuck with a shitload he bought back in Feb trying the old pump and dump.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL ! If I was trying that I'd hardly think I'd find a receptive bunch of investors on here !!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey HM let me improve your browsing experience with some more relevant advertising

http://www.samaritans.org.uk/images/...0-header-1.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did try but all the nasty stuff seems to have been removed from "your forum"


shame...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Hammy

Not invading your privacy, you put that info into the public domain its now a matter of public record.

try googling "deko" see what you can find.... erm nothing as I purposely chose that nick so its amongst a sea of other info.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can I ask a simple question, so why are you here?

You're well aware of the concerns people have, you've been following it closely. Even getting ejected from BadPhorm at one point IIRC.

The reason this will never go away as a grass roots campaign is simply this. What is at stake is a basic freedom to communicate.

Freedom to communicate privately, securely, and with integrity. That's what RIPA, Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the EC Framework Directive 2002/58/EC, and a ton of other carefully considered legislation both UK and EU protects.

The value of the net is in its content. There is no value created by Phorm.

Rather than contribute great content, Phorm have a business plan which pilfers that content in its entirety.

That's not creating value, that's stealing value. Its commercial copyright theft, and it is criminal according to the Copyright Act.

So privacy? Communications integrity? Copyright? It would be illegal to switch Phorm on. Which reminds me, I must write again to the authorities about events in 2006/7. I haven't done that for ooh, at least 18 hrs.

And I've got 200 envelopes, a wad of A4, 5 ink cartridges and 60 first class stamps to get through... before I go back to get some more...

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

still not legal to intercept and profile kids surfing the wibble but what phorm care they wont know who sat in the pilot seat will they.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dephormation - as I said in my first post, I posted to refute accusations that I was already posting.

As for Badphorm - I can't get into that either at my office or from home. They must have found a way of blocking me as they don't like anyone posting there who is not on-message.

No idea why you waste your time with 2006/7. What happened is obviously not thought to be of concern to the ICO.
But you feel free to keep writing the letters if it cheers you up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you want more targetted ads, why wait for Phorm, just download some adware, they will track your browsing and give you relevant ads. There's lots out there, though going to an adware publishers site probably won't let you download the client, you'll have to find some software that they have bundled it with.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@hamsterwheel
I repeat:

"Across the entire internet no-one has yet given a reasoned, valid argument as to why any USER would want this spyware."

If you have come here for a reasoned debate please give us your pro phorm argument, <Edit Rob: deleted:>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet.


Why do you think we keep writing letters?