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Ignition 30-03-2006 18:15
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrancerSteve
My experience with ADSL when it comes to congestion is its got the finger on the pulse. With keeping an eye on network performance and installing new DSLAMs when needed... Id like to know what hardware changes/upgrades NTL are doing instead of the cheap and nasty route of rolling out software to shape traffic.
Actually BT do traffic shape, and people have slammed them for not being proactive enough about their capacity upgrades.

They traffic shape around their DSLAMs to ensure that if/when they congest it gives a smoother experience and bandwidth is shared more evenly.

Check the status on http://www.samknows.com for more information on BT and their incredible never congested networks.

Then wait and see what happens when the MaxDSL starts ramping up ;)

TrancerSteve 30-03-2006 18:25
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition
Actually BT do traffic shape, and people have slammed them for not being proactive enough about their capacity upgrades.

They traffic shape around their DSLAMs to ensure that if/when they congest it gives a smoother experience and bandwidth is shared more evenly.

Check the status on http://www.samknows.com for more information on BT and their incredible never congested networks.

Then wait and see what happens when the MaxDSL starts ramping up ;)
Ahh didnt know that, my area was only in the 'red' for congestion for couple of months until it got upgraded.. even when it was on red I didnt see any probs, oddly enuff!

I was.. well still am with Nildram @2meg. lol have two net connections.. hmm need to cancel nildram can't afford both, but im scared to just have NTL :D and nuffin to fall back on! Never noticed any shaping of traffic with nildram, a very solid service puts NTL to shame in alot of respects. But my need for speed drove me away from them ;).

Im grateful for NTL going unlimited (Has it been confirmed yet!?) but I guess this is the price we pay in return.

Chrysalis 30-03-2006 19:52
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzo
*Sigh* :rolleyes:

So have any of the ADSL providers introduced capping or traffic shaping? How about other ISP's in other parts of the world?

At the end of the day you cannot expect Ntl or Telewest to throw huge amounts of money at their networks to ensure everyone can download vast amounts of data, chat for hours on Voip calls and stream enough video to make you go blind.

Like it or not Ntl/Telewest are NOT specialist ISP's who will provide a clean, uniterrupted internet feed. They are mass-market providers and they will react to what they feel the majority wants. If that involves shaping traffic to reduce P2P to a trickle then thats what they will do.
I believe ntl doesnt have to pay BT £20 per mbit for bt central traffic as it owns its own network, the adsl isps that are doing shaping have much higher proportional costs per customer and it isnt a fair comparison.

Also 50kB of a server which at same time can do 800kB to a friend's telewest connection sorry is a poor broadband service.

---------- Post added at 17:52 ---------- Previous post was at 17:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrancerSteve
No sighing please :D.

NTL knows that since the 10meg upgrades their network can't deliver. This is not even local congestion aswell, but going right up to their routers that direct traffic to peering companies. Ive never before seen such fluctuating speeds with an ISP before. Sure they don't promise it to be 100% stable all of the time, its not a leased line we have by any means!.. But I expect it to perform in a certain margin most of the time... im sure others do too.

My experience with ADSL when it comes to congestion is its got the finger on the pulse. With keeping an eye on network performance and installing new DSLAMs when needed... Id like to know what hardware changes/upgrades NTL are doing instead of the cheap and nasty route of rolling out software to shape traffic.

Boo hiss at cutting corner methods... but I guess we can't have it all, especially with these fast (when they want to be!) speeds.

:p:
applauds

new defenition of fluctuation.

4am 10mbit
9am 10mbit
midday 8mbit
2pm 5mbit
4pm 2mbit
7pm 0.5mbit
9pm 1.5mbit
midnight 3mbit
2am 8mbit
3am 10mbit

bopdude 31-03-2006 07:46
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
applauds

new defenition of fluctuation.

4am 10mbit
9am 10mbit
midday 8mbit
2pm 5mbit
4pm 2mbit
7pm 0.5mbit
9pm 1.5mbit
midnight 3mbit
2am 8mbit
3am 10mbit
Now I like that idea for a new thread, seriously, it could go along the lines of area ( in a sub thread )/ date / time and speed with which speed test used, its waaaaaay past me to even try and set up a thread like this, but if a passing mod / admin thinks it could work, for reference sakes, maybe a sticky to boot, it could prove usefull for some and a comparison for others.

suggestions / ideas on a post card, but no OT posts, just the facts :tu:

SOSAGES 31-03-2006 12:53
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
i am no expert in traffic shaping, essentially it involves your ISP identifying and blocking traffic from popular p2p applications (Bit Torrent/Emule/etc). While there are not that many isps that do this right now, expect more and more ISPs to implement traffic shaping (as new CISCO hardware has P2P throttling built in standard) It has been widely reported that most ISPs in Italy have implemented traffic shaping, and a major service provider in Canada uses a particularly brutal brand. Often there is no alternative service providers to turn to because of monopolisation of the market.

How will this work when p2p software can encrypt information now for example if you use the edonkey network (kad overnet emule etc).

check out
http://forum.emule-project.net/index...howtopic=90121
http://forum.emule-project.net/index...howtopic=99208

here is some info on the protolcol from the guy who wrote it
Quote:
There ts a preferences branche "Neo -> neo tweaks -> ISP traversal"
This setting have 3 states:
off - dissabled
on - enabled with extra ports
gray/squere - enabled without extra ports.
Normal users should have the gray/squere.
Throtled users should have fully enabled.
There are 2 sub settings:
1. Encrypted ports there you can enter ports and whole port ranges to be used
2. need isp traversal.
not needed
transfer - for transfer connections (not recomended on low id)
implicit for all connections expected the initial one for compatybility
explicit for all connections (not available yet for compatybility reasons)
I would recomend the implicit.

The download will be better when the amount of clients using this feature will raise.
The upload is immidetly improved becouse the neo is dropping sockets that are blocking automaticly, (neo->bandwith control -> general bandwidth settings -> upload management -> trickle blocking sockets -> drop blocking sockets) howeever the socket fitnes is estimated relativly to all sockets so when all are blocking thay want be droped.

David

Stuart 31-03-2006 13:27
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrancerSteve

My experience with ADSL when it comes to congestion is its got the finger on the pulse. With keeping an eye on network performance and installing new DSLAMs when needed... Id like to know what hardware changes/upgrades NTL are doing instead of the cheap and nasty route of rolling out software to shape traffic.
You've never dealt with Plusnet, Wanadoo or Bulldog then?

Graham M 31-03-2006 13:31
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
You've never dealt with Plusnet, Wanadoo or Bulldog then?
hehe, in fact 99% of LLU ISPs and even BT themselves.

Stuart 31-03-2006 13:32
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSAGES
How will this work when p2p software can encrypt information now for example if you use the edonkey network (kad overnet emule etc).
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.

Ignition 31-03-2006 13:38
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSAGES
i am no expert in traffic shaping, essentially it involves your ISP identifying and blocking traffic from popular p2p applications (Bit Torrent/Emule/etc). While there are not that many isps that do this right now, expect more and more ISPs to implement traffic shaping (as new CISCO hardware has P2P throttling built in standard) It has been widely reported that most ISPs in Italy have implemented traffic shaping, and a major service provider in Canada uses a particularly brutal brand. Often there is no alternative service providers to turn to because of monopolisation of the market.
Heh 'not many' o rly ;)

You've been able to do P2P throttling with Ciscos for a while using the NBAR features. Nothing brand new there. Most people prefer to use the Ellacoya / Packeteer / Sandvine / Allot / PCube gear though for more granularity of control and because it takes its' toll on the routers asking them to look deep into packets.

The big 3 cable operators in Canada all shape, Plusnet here shape immensely, Pipex do a bit of shaping, as do BT.

No doubt there are others that we don't know about because they're more subtle :)

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.
Suggest you check out Diffie-Hellman key exchange, TKIP, and asymettrical cryptography :)

The only way to stop a reasonably implemented encryption scheme is to use session / connection based throttling. There aren't exactly many applications that open as many connections as quickly as a P2P program :)

Stuart 31-03-2006 13:46
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.
Suggest you check out Diffie-Hellman key exchange, TKIP, and asymettrical cryptography :)

The only way to stop a reasonably implemented encryption scheme is to use session / connection based throttling. There aren't exactly many applications that open as many connections as quickly as a P2P program :)
I don't have time to check those out now (but may well do later), but if enough people exchanged keys, surely you still run the risk of the ISP picking that up?

Bill C 31-03-2006 13:55
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.
Suggest you check out Diffie-Hellman key exchange, TKIP, and asymmetric cryptography :)

The only way to stop a reasonably implemented encryption scheme is to use session / connection based throttling. There aren't exactly many applications that open as many connections as quickly as a P2P program :)
I don't have time to check those out now (but may well do later), but if enough people exchanged keys, surely you still run the risk of the ISP picking that up?
If its that easily defeated ?, Why would they spend the sort of money that this stuff costs. Unless its not that easy to defeat. ?


My opinion on this is it's NOT that easy to defeat.

Stuart 31-03-2006 14:36
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by unlimited
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.
Suggest you check out Diffie-Hellman key exchange, TKIP, and asymmetric cryptography :)

The only way to stop a reasonably implemented encryption scheme is to use session / connection based throttling. There aren't exactly many applications that open as many connections as quickly as a P2P program :)
I don't have time to check those out now (but may well do later), but if enough people exchanged keys, surely you still run the risk of the ISP picking that up?
If its that easily defeated ?, Why would they spend the sort of money that this stuff costs. Unless its not that easy to defeat. ?


My opinion on this is it's NOT that easy to defeat.
Was that aimed at me? If it was, I was talking about the encryption being offered by P2P clients and how ISPs might detect that. Unless I am much mistaken, the various P2P authors probably don't spend that much money..

Bill C 31-03-2006 16:36
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Quote:
Originally Posted by unlimited
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C
Not sure encryption will be very handy. Either only a few people will have each key, which will reduce the number of downloads available (thus slowing the download speed), or lots of P2P users will have the same key, and the ISPs may well spot a pattern, and just slow down any packets conforming to that pattern.
Suggest you check out Diffie-Hellman key exchange, TKIP, and asymmetric cryptography :)

The only way to stop a reasonably implemented encryption scheme is to use session / connection based throttling. There aren't exactly many applications that open as many connections as quickly as a P2P program :)
I don't have time to check those out now (but may well do later), but if enough people exchanged keys, surely you still run the risk of the ISP picking that up?
If its that easily defeated ?, Why would they spend the sort of money that this stuff costs. Unless its not that easy to defeat. ?


My opinion on this is it's NOT that easy to defeat.
Was that aimed at me? If it was, I was talking about the encryption being offered by P2P clients and how ISPs might detect that. Unless I am much mistaken, the various P2P authors probably don't spend that much money..

No :LOL:

Just me suggesting a point of view ;)

Chrysalis 31-03-2006 22:28
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
I know the bulldog rep has came out on adslguide and stated they dont do shaping. Plusnet are been mostly open about it. NTL appear to be shutting up shop with communication.

Bill C 01-04-2006 00:05
Re: 10 meg unlimited?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis
I know the bulldog rep has came out on adslguide and stated they dont do shaping. Plusnet are been mostly open about it. NTL appear to be shutting up shop with communication.
Sorry but in my eye's bulldog are no better than NTL. Its a history thing.


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