Cable Forum - Catalonia Independence

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Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35921324)

If the referendum was unconstitutional then it's not undemocratic to ignore it. The police were heavy handed but that won't be the first time a police force in the EU has misbehaved, including the UK.
If any rights have been violated then I guess people can take legal proceedings up with the Spanish state. But ultimately it's a political situation that needs sorting out in Spain. I'm sure friendly countries will be willing to assist in the way that they did in Northern Ireland, although we are not blessed with the same calibre of politicians now as we did for the Northern Ireland peace talks.

Conveniently ruled unconstitutional.

Still against the basic EU principle... "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy"

Key word underlined.

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35921327)

Conveniently ruled unconstitutional.

Still against the basic EU principle... "stable institutions guaranteeing democracy"

Key word underlined.

What do you really suggest Spain does? Obviously, talk and not send in the police are what it should have done on Day 1. But do you think it should follow an unconstitutional referendum? That sets a bit of a dangerous precedent. Do you believe it is undemocratic to obey an unconstitutional referendum?

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35921332)

I do not agree with Spain's approach.

The Catalonia Referendum on Independence, wasn't classified as illegal right up until the eve of the vote. Why allow such a process to build up so much momentum, people campaigning etc, mass rallies of people in the street?

Spain panicked and thought, "crap, we cannot lose one of our key financial support areas", I wouldn't put it past the EU to lean on Spain to go in heavy handed, the EU's lack of empathy towards old people being dragged and pushed to the ground by Spain's Militia, which by the way breached a key clause of membership of the EU of basic human rights violations, it was totally disgusting and you still love and want to be associated with these EU pissants. :rolleyes:

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35921350)

The referendum was halted just days after the Catalan Parliament passed the bill: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-disobedience/

It was never seen as entirely legal right up to the eve of the vote. The position of Madrid has always been that it is illegal.

Quote:

The Spanish Constitutional Court last night suspended a referendum law that was approved on Wednesday by the Catalan parliament, blocking the way for an vote on independence from Spain. The law will be suspended while judges consider arguments that the vote breaches the country's constitution.

There is also an explanation as to why it's illegal here: https://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...st-explains-17

Quote:

Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.

But legal or not it's questionable if a region of a country can just declare independence without the approval of the parent nation. Is that really a precedent we want to set?

If a region of the UK, Scotland or Wales for example, suddenly decided to hold a referendum without permission from Westminster which they subsequently won would you approve of the EU demanding we recognise it?

I think they should offer a legal path to a referendum and they certainly should not have reacted so violently. In doing so they've only increased the support for independence both in Catalonia and around the world. This is a complicated issue though and within Catalonia the question was not settled and you can't have suddenly declarations of independence.

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35921350)

Just because I feel that remaining in the EU is the least worse option for the UK in terms of funding public services, the economy and the country's global influence doesn't mean I love the Spanish police force. They've handled the situation very badly and I think politicians in Spain all need to sit round a table and sort it out.
As I asked before, "Do you believe it is undemocratic to obey an unconstitutional referendum?"

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35921356)

And as I said, conveniently unconstitutional.

And in reply to the underlined bit, I am not talking about Spain's police, I am talking about the EU.

Re: Catalonia Independence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35921362)

And as I said, conveniently unconstitutional.

And in reply to the underlined bit, I am not talking about Spain's police, I am talking about the EU.

If you read the Economist article, you'll realise that your statement " The Catalonia Referendum on Independence, wasn't classified as illegal right up until the eve of the vote" is wrong.

Quote:

But there is a problem: Spain’s democratic constitution of 1978, which was approved by more than 90% of Catalan voters, gave wide autonomy to the regions but affirmed “the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation”. Only the Spanish parliament can change the constitution. Mr Puigdemont’s referendum is therefore illegal, and Mariano Rajoy, Spain’s conservative prime minister, is determined to prevent it taking place.

And as others wiser then me have explained, you can't have any part of a country calling a referendum. That would be a recipe for chaos. They need to abide by the constitution of the country and that constitution will vary between sovereign states. Even if Canvey Island fancies a bit of independence. ;) https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/r...-a3660471.html
I've already explained my feelings on the EU.

Re: Catalonia Independence

I see Madrid's now contending that many of the images shown during and since the pre-referendum violence are fake:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-e...-pictures-fake

I'd like him to show us which ones they are and what proportion of the total they represent.

Re: Catalonia Independence

It is worth remembering how recently Spain actually became a democracy. This is not a nation with a long history of being an open democracy.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Span...n_to_democracy

Re: Catalonia Independence

note to self 40 years is not enough time to realise you live in a democracy

Re: Catalonia Independence

Catalan leaders call election on 20th December.

Re: Catalonia Independence

Catalonia has declared independence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116

Let's hope that, whatever else happens, there's no return to the violence of a couple of weeks ago.

Re: Catalonia Independence

This is going to go well.

Re: Catalonia Independence

A civil war within the EU would be an interesting development

Re: Catalonia Independence

If they have declared independence, they are no longer part of the EU, nor of the euro. Let's watch them wriggle out of that one.