Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I agree with your sentiments but I disagree that we are running the nhs on a shoestring. I think that we are chucking a vast amount of cash at it already

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

And that's before you consider that many doctors and nurses are deeply, deeply ***** when it come so diagnosis and care.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

No they aren't, what was it the shadow health secretary said no one with a gcse in maths can believe no junior doctor working within the legal limits will not lose money because the sums don't add up iirc

---------- Post added at 01:06 ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 ----------

Iirc we spend less of our GDP on health than any other developed nation or G7 nation, one of the two

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

It has never been claimed that nobody will lose out. That was said on 28th October and there have been improvements in pay since then.

SO WHAT. That has nothing to do with this. Even Germany has problems recruiting doctors.

So the ones that might see a pay cut are the ones working unsafe hours, which is something the junior doctors are bleating about. Anyway as they are NOT working within the limits, the statement doesn't apply to them in the first place.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

There would've had to have been considering I remember hearing a lot of them would have had pay cuts of up to 40% back then, that was when hunt was still saying they were getting a rise and yet this is the man whose word you still want to take as gospel

I was actually replying to ramie but seeing as you're saying so what I actually think we should be keeping our doctors, we give them subsidised education on the understanding that they work for the nhs for a while and if they're not prepared to do that they should be asked to pay back some of the cash, not that hunt has bothered to deal with that issue instead he seems to want to make the exodus worse, what was it the shadow health secretary called him the greatest recruiting sargent Australian medicine ever had


Or the ones that work only unsocial hours because of the job requirements

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

But no one ever mentions that most of the other G7 countries fund their Health Services with a mixture of State Funding and personal Health Insurance.

France - http://about-france.com/health-care.htm Germany - http://www.germanyhis.com/

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Is that what's called an inconvenient truth?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well the junior doctors are going on about unsafe hours and the dangers of being tired, when in TRUTH their hours are being reduced and working patterns that have been AGREED with the BMA. And the evidence that they will all get 40% pay cuts is...................nowhere to be found. They would be constantly screaming it out if there was any evidence. Let's suppose that if you look at a particular OCCASIONAL shift pattern of full weekend working. That PEAK earning week might go down, but with the 13.5% increase for all the other days, the average won't change. Apparently the BMA only want a basic increase of 4-7% and not the 13.5% offered. Sounds like the BMA ALSO agreed to whatever pay cuts there turns out to be. The NHS has the doctors working hours data and can carry out "what if" scenarios and other modelling to check the impact. They are better placed to identify the true level of impact. The November offer has "time off in lieu for additional work", whereas the current offer pays the appropriate rate until the hours limits are hit, and then it is time and a half.

Channel 4 factcheck from Nov 2015

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I was actually in A& E one night. And there was NO DOCTOR on duty. They had to call in an agency Locum

I ask members of this forum, IF you were a Doctor, Nurse. Would you work in the NHS

Answers please

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Well, since the NHS employs* 150,273 doctors and 377,191 qualified nursing staff, out of a total of 1,161,884 employees, which is 1 in 32 of the U.K. working-age population, some probably do...

*figures from January 2016

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Hugh.,

Anyone who works for the NHS, has my upmost respect

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Maybe we should just be paying more for this service, i.e. as much as some of our peers in Europe:

UK health spending as a share of GDP

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Perhaps I should've tried shouting you might have realised I was describing the early negotiations that way, I thought I was being quite clear using words like back then etc and here's a link going back then to, wasn't that hard to find either

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ay-40-per-cent

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

So still no evidence.
With the 13.5% the basic goes up to 26,105. Difficult to be sure what day of the week he is referring for the evening work(until 9pm). Under the current contract, only Mon-Fri 7-9pm and weekends attract any extra. Under the new contract the 5-9pm on Saturday and all day Sunday attracts an extra 33% on top of the 13.5% basic. That gives 51% extra for just those hours. Any basic rate(at the extra 13.5%) Saturday 7am-5pm, should possibly more than be made up with the extra 13.5% for the Mon-Fri. As for the working for free, the proposal is to pay at the "prevailing rate" for those extra hours, and if it puts them over the 48hr average or 72hr weekly limits they get time and a half. The main impact to him seems to be the basic(ie+13.5%) for the one Saturday in 4, but just think of all the other Mon-Fri work days with 13.5% raise. Just 3 days of that cover the 40% gap and the other Mon-Fri work days in that 28day period will add even more. An average of 4.5hrs/week, affected on the new basic(+13.5%). Unless those are pretty much the only hours he works, sounds like he will be in for a pay rise rather than a pay cut.

The only real differences to the BMA proposals seem to be the 2 hours 7-8am and 8-9pm Mon-Fri and 7am-5pm Saturday. But at the same time they are only looking for a 4-7% basic raise and not the 13.5% offered.

Does that sound like anything to get worked up about and go on strike for?

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

Maybe we should start funding healthcare the same way the rest of the developed world does rather than in a manner emulated only by communist states.

Much of the rest of the first world may have a point with funding through a combination of single payer and private insurance.

As Hugh identified we spend about as much taxpayer money on healthcare as many of our peers but lack the private sector funding that compliments it elsewhere.

Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 

I thought we'd already established Hunt was lying when he said the strike was all about money