Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Spot on. :clap:

Extremists just encourage extremists to thrive on the other side.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Disturbing approach by Israel.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ha...eport-13011430

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I wouldn’t worry - there’s no way he’ll bend to Reform U.K.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s irrelevant, Israel are not taking any notice and nor do they have to.

Israel are doing what they deem necessary for their present and future security and that’s that.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There is one question you should ask yourself and it is this:

The answer is, of course, no. Not is any way, shape or form. The Palestinians are perceived as disposable by the current Israeli government and it is this mindset, driven by the evil ultra-Zionist ideology, that delivers what we see before us.

What is worse is the West looking on and effectively endorsing these war crimes through hand wringing indolence. Out of the Western leaders, only Macron has the guts to call this out.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Bless ...

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, he's correct.

Completely hypothetical invention.

Here's another one.

The answer is, of course, Yes. in any way, shape or form. The Palestinians are perceived as disposable by Hamas and it is this mindset, driven by the evil jihadist ideology, that delivers what we see before us.

What is worse is many in the West looking on and effectively endorsing these war crimes as they march through cities chanting from the river to the sea. Out of the Western leaders, no one has the guts to call this out.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You said you were a clear thinker, well I disagree. If you are unable to consider how people react or behave in different situations, then I would challenge your assertion.

Discussing IDF's behaviour in a different context is a valid discussion since it posits the argument that they behave the way have in Gaza *because* they are in Gaza and their targets are, in their eyes, not worth the same consideration as their own people would merit.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You know prior to October 7th 620 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis this year, how many Israelis had been killed by Palestinians 6, that's not perceived as disposable it's actually disposing of people, better people than me will know why we have anything to do with the Israeli government


Tiny minority but hey if it deflects from the meaning of the march and the reason most people were there it makes sense to paint a picture

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

You only have to look at Hebron to know this is true

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Israeli governments duty is to it's citizens.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If you research the history of the area, you can easily see the decades of ethnic cleaning in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The denial of this, in the face of UN resolutions, helps to understand the mindset in play. Israel as represented by the current & past Likud administrations, feels it can go beyond boundaries that most democratic governments would baulk at. Why? Because of the support of the US and the billions of dollars it provides.

When criticised, it is quick to play the Anti-Semitism & Holocaust cards to shout down legitimate calls for restraint. Until Israel is held to account for its actions, what we saw during the Hamas attack will just repeat, again and again, destabilising the whole region.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The clear thinkers are those who understand what is unavoidable when a deadly enemy surround themselves with innocent men, women and children to avoid being attacked themselves.

There are casualties in war. Look at Ukraine. Look at Yemen. Join the dots.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

And why, pray, did the Israelis kill those nice Palestinians who were just having a little game with them by continually firing rockets at Israel?

We need to have a grown up conversation about this sort of thing and stop engaging in these shallow and absurd comments. It’s Hamas that doesn’t want peace and deliberately wrecked the peace talks by this dreadful act of barbarism.

And yet only Israel is the target of the vitriol.

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

Cause and effect. This time, Hamas has gone too far. They will no longer be in existence to be able to respond this time around.

As for Iran, their bluff has been called and they have now confirmed that they will not be retaliating.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Indeed, a war that’s gone on ten times longer and has less civilian deaths, less women deaths and less child deaths.

There’s nothing “clear thinking” about supporting and rationalising unrestricted warfare on civilians, civilian infrastructure, hospitals, refugee camps, churches and mosques.

Hamas will long outlive Israeli credibility in this conflict.

Terror groups commit acts all around the world and it never, ever, permits reprisals on this scale.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There really is no choice when brutal terrorists hide themselves away in the population, using their own civilians as shields.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Assuming that’s actually true - in many cases the IDF claims remain uncorroborated - there absolutely is a choice whether to raze entire civilian areas to the ground, attack hospitals, churches, mosques and refugee camps killing thousands of innocent civilians in the process.

It’s also a choice to restrict humanitarian aid, medical supplies, food, water, fuel and force civilians to flee their homes then destroy everything they have behind them.

American and European leaders were absolutely clear when Russia commenced it’s special military operation that acts far less severe than these were war crimes. This double standard erodes western credibility around the world.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

People don’t care about Yemen OB, it doesn’t tick the same luxury beliefs/ virtue signalling boxes. There isn’t a snazzy flag or catchy chant to sing and most importantly………there’s no Jews involved.

No, no one is marching for Yemen. I doubt many on one of the recent marches could point to Yemen on a map.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Before mentions of Yemen in this thread there have been three references to Yemen on the forum since 2018 and one of those was Covid vaccination rates. With the extensive thread on the situation in Ukraine does that also mean everyone in that thread was merely virtue signalling their luxury beliefs with a snazzy flag?

It’s entirely unreasonable to tar pretty much the entire world as anti-Semitic for having the audacity to believe Israel doesn’t have a right to kill Palestinians with impunity so long as there’s an outside chance a single Hamas militant might be hit in the school, hospital or refugee camp.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s an aside, but I am very confident that if Israel was an Arab Muslim state, undertaking the same actions in Gaza, very few ( in this country and around the world) would give a toss.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not an aside. Either stand by your conviction that everyone calling for a ceasefire is anti-Semitic or don’t imply it.

It’s a well known trope deployed by Israel consistently to attempt to censor its critics. What is the mechanism to speak out against Israel’s actions in a way that isn’t anti-Semitic? If the answer is there is none the question really should be why their religion gives them a free pass.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’ll stand by it, and I’m not talking about just the cease fire.

I don’t think I could be any clearer.

If it wasn’t Jews undertaking this retaliatory operations no one would care.

When we and the yanks were doing it for over a decade we didn’t get as much, no screams at similar scale for a ceasefire in Afghanistan and Iraq and that was years, not weeks.

If it was two Arab-Muslim states it would hardly make the news here.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And by what mechanism can someone call for a ceasefire and not be anti-Semitic?

---------- Post added at 21:11 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------

One may contest, as an aside, that’d depend how much oil was under it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not the calling for a ceasefire that gets my ire. It’s the numbers and type of people marching through the streets calling for it.

As I say, if it was two Arab-Muslim nations at it you wouldn’t get 200,000 in London marching for a ceasefire, you’d be lucky to get 200.

Indigo and Barnaby wouldn’t be marching calling for genocide, “Queers for Palestine” wouldn’t be flying their misconceived flags, Socialist Worker wouldn’t be there.

It’s clear, only the Jews bring out the crowds.

Not a massive amount of oil in Afghanistan, but what there is they’ve given to China.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

In the case of 17 year old Mahmud al- Sadi he was walking to school when killed and no we don't need to have a grown up conversation at all because you bring nothing to this discussion that hasn't already been said, no facts, no insights, no solutions, just more of the same old suck it up nonsense

Yes at least Israel has the decency to only use Palestinians as human shields and they're not to fussy if they're children either

I seem to remember going on a march with a million others protesting about that war, don't remember seeing you there Pierre and what about the many Jews on the march, they antisemitic too or just self loathing Jews as the Israeli government calls them

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Considering there was a million people and you don’t know what I look like, that’s …………….unsurprising.

Don’t know, haven’t spoken to any.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Similar numbers, if not more, protested the Iraq war.

If Israel are concerned by the numbers protesting around the world then they could abide by the norms and customs that we consider acceptable in war. I’ll pre-empt “why don’t you ask Hamas to?” by answering now - I hold nation states that would claim to be civilised above to a higher standard and it’s only right to. It’s what is supposed to distinguish the two.

If a county wants to discard these norms they will, rightly, be condemned. There’s no requirement to run through every injustice in the world before arriving at the plight of the Palestinian people being massacred and survivors having everything they have taken from them. They have just as much right to live in peace in their own land as Israelis. If Israel, or any of it’s supporters, wants to deny them that fundamental right then there’s well known terms for that.

If two “Arab-Muslim” nations went to war (presuming the CIA isn’t financing at least one side) in the conflict it’d be extremely unlikely to be so lop-sided in outcomes or overtly backed and financed by the US with political cover from the UK or the EU. The value in protesting (questionable anyway, Chris had an excellent post on it) is massively reduced.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes, but that was Western colonisers invading Islamic nations

I don’t think I’ve seen many protest Saudi Arabia’s actions against Yemen

Not much about Syria killing their own ( but ‘stop the war’ did jump in when we suggested getting involved)

When there were marches by actual Muslims against violence by Muslims I regards to ISIS in 2017, there weren’t so many Barnabys, Indigos and Tarquins marching along.

I’m fairly certain Israel are not concerned in the slightest, and couldn’t care less.

I wasn’t going to ask that.

But a nations first responsibility is to its citizens and to protect them and itself. Above all else.

If you can’t defend your nation, you have no nation.

The nations surrounding Israel do not respect diplomacy, they do not respect talks, they do not respect any sign of weakness. This is arguably why we are where we are.

What they respect and respond to is power, Israel now know that diplomacy and talks are a dead end.

. By some, by others not experiencing an existential attack

No they don’t, not if their representatives attack the Israelis and want to remove the Jews from the land…………then it becomes a straight fight for survival.

if Palestinian Hamas wants to deny the Jews their fundamental right there is indeed a well known term for that.

Thank you, you’ve answered that perfectly ( I removed the bullshit) but the truth shone through…….blindingly.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Selectively quoting to misrepresent my comments to remove context is unhelpful Pierre.

Your pretence that Israel is under existential threat from Hamas, or anyone else, is a sleight of hand to justify what is clearly a disproportionate response by Israel. Much like the pretence that it was ever about self defence. And the pretence that anyone who opposes Israel is anti-Semitic. It’s lie upon lie upon lie.

Nobody in Gaza is a danger to Israel at this point, much like none of the surrounding nations are a meaningful threat given Israel’s defensive capabilities and the massive amount of American support stationed in the sea. Even when given free reign to mastermind attacks, while tragic, none represent existential threat to Israel.

If the whole premise behind your narrative is false you really are into the territory of revenge for the sake of revenge. That won’t make Israel safer. Or London.

By your logic - if you cannot defend your nation you essentially don’t have one - applied equally at this point is essentially a call to arms for Palestinians. Against Israel. You may rationalise this as the Palestinians not having equal status or rights to a state - they absolutely will not.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If Hamas had gone to ground in an Israeli area they likely would not need to send in the bombers as the reservists in the population, not to speak of the population themselves would have sorted them out. The Israeli police may have been needed to protect Hamas.


There is a difference hiding in a population that is hostile to you and can respond and hiding in one where some are favourable and they can't respond.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The only coffee you’re smelling is Kopi luwak…

Whilst the Hamas incursion was horrific and unjustified, it was not war, it was a terrorist incursion - the last war with Israel by other Arab countries was fifty years ago.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Once again this slur is repeated without evidence.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, if that’s your example of an intelligent conversation, I will pass at making any comment on it.

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

Has it occurred to you that applying your so-called ‘higher standards’ against brutal savages like Hamas, you are only guaranteeing that the brutes will win. Do you want this war to go on forever?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

TheDaddy can “suck on that” as they say.

---------- Post added at 16:14 ---------- Previous post was at 16:01 ----------

How does it guarantee the brutes win?

Has it occurred to you that a nation lowering itself to the standards of a terrorist organisation legitimises the targeting of it’s own civilians and it’s own infrastructure?

Countries around the Arab and Muslim world are congregating in China to discuss next steps. I’m not sure that outcome is a longer term positive.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You are missing the point of my question

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Funny I could've sworn I said I didn't want to have a conversation with you about it although I understand your reluctant to discuss the repeated use of Palestinians including children as human shields by the idf

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’ll discuss it. The IDF are putting these Palestinian children in danger by using them as shields by attack from whom?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I'm not sure I want to discuss children being tied to vehicles, being forced to kneel in front of tanks to deter attack, being forced into buildings in front of soldiers, forcing a 9 year old boy to open bags soldiers thought filled with explosives (the punishment for doing this was demotion btw, demotion in rank for that, wtf), you could say these practices have changed since these cases were brought to court but have they, an Israelii columnist reported in 2022 that a family of five were pulled from their house in Jenin to act as human shields and five children were used in this way in May this year.

Oh and remember you weren't holding your breath over the use of white phosphorus, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International had plenty to say about it recently

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

How about answering the question Pierre asked?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

He probably didn’t because the act of human shields is a war crime. The fact someone else is required to be a participant in war is a red herring.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

To be a shield (of any kind) there has to be someone else attacking you.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Indeed, but the war crime is on the party using human shields.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://wapo.st/3SQ00ok

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes, but point was they are only a shield if they are being used to shield from an attack by someone.

Who were the IDF shielding from? And if they were being used as shields I’m sure a reference of some sort can be obtained advertising the fact.

No point having human shields unless the entity you’re shielding against is aware of the fact these innocents are in harms way.

Should be very easy to verify, I’ll await the response from Daddy’O

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not the point, it’s a crass effort to deflect the blame for Israeli (alleged?) war crimes.

At some point Israel is responsible for its own actions if they fall below internationally recognised standards. The “wHaT aBoUt HaMaS?” defence isn’t a get out of jail free card in that regard.

For a small minority Israel are absolutely blameless in every regard, when the scoreboard of deaths for 2023 (or any other given year) suggests otherwise.

OB claims if there’s a ceasefire the “brutes” win, at this point how can anyone tell the difference?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It is the point, and with respect the rest of that post read as …..” whaaa…whaaa…whaaaa……….whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

No time for that.

I am talking in direct reply to Daddy’O, and his assertion that the IDF are using Palestinians as human shields, my question was ..who are the IDF using them to shield from? Seemed straight forward. No answer yet though.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It is very easy to verify, so easy you should've got off your backside and looked yourself if you don't want to wait, in the case of the boy tied to the vehicle it was to shield from stone throwers, all the money showered on Israeli security services and they break international laws for yobs with rocks and school girls with flags

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They aren’t mutually exclusive positions and others are here for that insight.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The semantic hoops you jump through to avoid giving your own insight on Hamas’ actions are quite impressive.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There’s always the search function - I don’t need to qualify my criticism of Israel on every occasion with implicit justification by placing it out of context.

I understand the rationale for others to prefer that to effectively steer, or at worst censor, criticism of Israel into more favourable terms. I’m not playing that game.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The closest I’ve seen to you posting a condemnation of Hamas is agreeing with me when I said "both are bad"…

Other than that, you have been quite muted on the subject…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m not sure what more I can do beyond condemn all civilian deaths? I’ve said it’s unacceptable for terrorists to target non-military targets. I’ve made it clear nation states should be held to higher standards than terror groups which itself implies their actions fall below what is acceptable morally and legally in international law.

The irony isn’t lost on me here that this exemplifies my point about framing everything in a favourable way to Israel. Israeli victims of the conflict must be held up alone, Hamas condemned unequivocally. Palestinian victims and Israel’s actions can only be condemned with a “but…”.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Condemning Hamas isn’t "framing everything in a favourable way to Israel", except, it appears, in your eyes. You are taking the Corbynista approach of "condemning terrorists" or "condemning all civilian deaths", not condemning Hamas (whilst unequivocally, repeatedly, condemning Israel).

I have condemned actions on both sides - it’s not difficult (except for you..;).

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You will almost certainly find I acknowledge Hamas are terrorist group on multiple occasions.

It absolutely is favourable to Israel to say “Israel are committing war crimes but beheaded babies etc.” versus “Israel are committing war crimes of their own volition ignoring alternative means of achieving their military objectives that adhere to international law”.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There needs to be a cessation of the demand that every post about the behaviour of Israel is accompanied by a "Hamas is bad as well" commentary. To do this is to misdirect the narrative and make it all about how Hamas is only issue here.

I, for one, have condemned Hamas unequivocally and I am sure John has as well. To continue this, as others are also doing, is to ignore the wider questions regarding the actions of an out of control nation state terrorising a captive population.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And as I’ve indicated it’s an accusation at best without merit and at worst that only exists to regulate or censor criticism of Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I thought we may have moved the discussion on a little bit, given they have agreed to a 4 day ceasefire and release of 50 hostages in exchange for the release of imprisoned Palestinian terrorists.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’ve not ignored anything. I’m pointing out which party is committing the war crime. I can’t do anything if that fact makes you uncomfortable - it’s established international law.

The fact you accuse 300,000 people in this country campaigning for a ceasefire, for merely disagreeing with you, of being “pro-Hamas” is far more distasteful than my offerings (or lack of in some cases) in this thread.

---------- Post added at 16:00 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

If they were truly terrorists Israel wouldn’t be exchanging three of them for every hostage. There’s women, children, and people detained awaiting trial for the heinous crimes of “incitement to stone throwing” and flying disagreeable flags.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It wasn’t all stones and flags

https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.am...jerusalem/amp/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

:rofl:

You are still the forums first choice for the job of PR for Hamas. :erm:

Yes, you bluff and bluster otherwise, but members are seeing past that. ;)

Your anti Israeli rants have gone too far off the rails at least a couple of times now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Members are free to form their own opinions but I’m absolutely not doing PR for Hamas. Nobody, anywhere, will find a positive word I have to say about them. Conflating Hamas with all Palestinians is another unhelpful feature of pro-Israeli discourse.

Sure, I’m going against the pro-Israel unlimited and unrestricted right to self defence (ignoring international law, and their obligations as an occupying force) - seemingly a majority opinion in this thread if a minority in the country as a whole.

I wouldn’t agree that they have gone off the rails but I’ve certainly seen some posts removed rather than have anyone argue with the substance which is disappointing if I was wrong it should be easy to disprove. The claim that 300,000 protesters are “pro-Hamas” is more ridiculous than anything I’ve said and gets to stand.

Members can’t see past their own bias (I’ll include myself here) on the conflict, regardless of how many Palestinians die.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=152

I’m not sure the post above is good PR for Hamas.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=473

Here I discuss punishing Hamas while minimising civilian casualties.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=554

Again dismissing that Israel “do nothing”.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Disagree. Some members give Israel carte blanche with no attempt to criticise the current campaign but they, thankfully, seem in the minority.

Just to clarify, in terms of what Israel "has to do", how many dead civilians, women, children and babies, are "allowable" before you would say enough? 1000, 5000, 10000, 20000? If you sanction these deaths, you must be prepared to say how many can die before you would say enough, stop?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don’t give Israel anything, I don’t have to, Israel has a mandate from its people to take whatever measures are necessary for their security.

That’s it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s never as simple as just ‘it’.

Israel has international treaty obligations (shorthand: “international law”) that govern the way it undertakes military operations. As a sovereign democracy it can of course ignore international obligations in preference to the concerns of its citizens, but at the risk of long-term consequences for its wider support and influence in the world.

Their calculation right now appears to be that as Iran and certain unfriendly Arab regimes are backing Palestine and particularly Hamas, they effectively have the Americans over a barrel in terms of public criticism of their actions. Add to that Netanyahu’s desperation to recover from a very serious security failing that has his name all over it and Hamas’s failure to anticipate the scale of the response to their insane rampage and you have a complex, toxic and deadly situation in which a lot of innocent people are dying for the egos of a few very angry men.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And how many Israelis do Hamas have to kill before Israel have the right to strike back, even though Hamas surround themselves with their own civilians for protection?

You are not being realistic. Hamas must be eliminated to stop all of this. The civilian losses are down to the cynical behaviour of Hamas.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

In what way is 13,000 dead and razing northern Gaza to the ground not striking back? Although I will concede that the majority of the dead are women and children so unlikely to be Hamas so there could be more said about the ‘success’ rate?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody disputes the overarching ambition, just questioning whether the slaughter of thousands of civilians and destruction of the homes/property of millions makes it more achievable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I am being very realistic here - yes, these people are really dead, in the real world.

So I ask again: what number of dead Palestinian civilians would you baulk at? 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000, what?? What is the number you are content to see die in order that Israel can pursue it war aims?

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:08 ----------

I'll ask you this question: what number of dead Palestinian civilians would you baulk at? 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000, what?? What is the number you are content to see die in order that Israel can pursue it war aims?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You're asking the wrong people, I would love for Israel to pursue its war aims without anyone being killed.

But Israel will do what it thinks is necessary to complete its aims and whatever we think about it is irrelevant.

I think this time Israel (Netanyahu) is emboldened to go as far as they need to go to eliminate Hamas, only an Intervention by the USA may temper them.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Which brings the second question - how many Palestinian civilians is it legitimate to kill in pursuit of that ambition? On a scale from 0 to all of them.

Is there any evidence that Hamas are proactively using human shields? If you are razing entire civilian areas to the ground it’s not really credible that the people were human shields in their own homes. Similarly those who sought reasonable protection in hospital grounds, places of worship or refugee camps again weren’t held there as human shields by Hamas.

A third question would be after how many civilian deaths can Palestinians legitimately take up arms against Israel under the banner of “self defence”? If the answer is never, why not?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The killing of 13,000 people in Gaza and elimination of a lot of its infrastructure is only going to lead to a successor body in Hamas's place. We're not talking about eliminating something like smallpox. We're talking about an underlying territorial dispute and grievances by human beings on both sides of the Gaza-Israel border.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s a 100% legitimate question. Your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As does your unwillingness to answer his question, it works both ways.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Realistically, Hamas or a successor terrorist group cannot be eliminated but can be heavily disrupted. The Israeli government wanted revenge for the 1,400 death and some of the Palestinians will be no different in seeking revenge for the 13,000+ deaths in Gaza. Violence begets violence whether it's in the name of Hamas or another organisation. Thus, the tragic vicious circle continues.

So, if Hamas cannot be eliminated the logical conclusion to this is to resolve the territorial issue (unlikely in the short or even medium term) and to minimise the threat of incursion into Israel by better intelligence and security (more realistic).

Your penultimate paragraph is sensible.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Which one?

Although not in direct response to this post, to a similar one I replied:

If it’s this one:

I don’t think it’s the answer. I do think it’s a justifiable last resort in some circumstances (no, not 7th October) against military targets or other state apparatus. I agree it’s a vicious circle.

The risk in not protecting civilians is some nefarious actors (Iran, Saudi, take your pick) will very easily bankroll future terrorist attacks with victims out for revenge and it’ll be easy for them to argue it’s both justifiable and necessary to move beyond my caveat above.

There may even be an Iranian niche tech forum where people blame Israelis for voting for Netanyahu, and rationalise targeting their civilian population that way.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

At least they’ll get due process and a custodial sentence, at worst.

Here’s a glimpse for anyone that would hope for the same in a Palestinian governed state, what would happen to them.

Suddenly a few years in an Israeli prison may not seem so bad!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-men-...%20the%20trash.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

What about the due process for the 13,000 plus killed to date?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Not sure this is "due process"…

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/i...-oct-7-un-says

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The very definition of whataboutism.

---------- Post added at 15:48 ---------- Previous post was at 15:38 ----------

That’s definitely what those two men were thinking as they were being beaten to death and hoisted by the ankles up a power pylon.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not whataboutery to point out Israel and due process for Palestinians don’t go as hand in hand as you initially implied.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The point of the post was more about Palestinian on Palestinian barbarism, and not a Hamas terrorist in sight.

Cheered on by hundreds of spectators.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Palestinians are still statistically far more likely to die as a result of Israeli bombing, or at the hands of Israeli settlers, than be killed for spying.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And it's equally definite that the two mourners murdered were thinking "well, at least there's due process here..."

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m just interested. What do you think when you see that headline and videos that are easily found on this incident? I wonder what all the white middle class leftists marching with their Palestinian flags think too.

They’re nice reasonable people.

What a tolerant people.

I’d love to live in that society.

What an inclusive people.

Etc etc

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Personally no, but extrajudicial executions aren’t exclusively a Palestinian trait. Neither does it mean the Palestinian people as a whole don’t have the right to live in their own land without being bombed out of it by Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think it does. If you support the IDF campaign in Gaza then you must be able to sanction the deaths of civilians. For any rational, humane person there should be a red line here i.e. over what number is the response disproportionate? What number is too many?

The inability or unwillingness to answer questions like these is telling ..

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 ----------

There is nothing artificial or false about my question, it is very real and the fact that you can only answer the question with a question is revealing.

To answer your question which, by the way, is framed in an illogical form: Israel has been waging war with Hamas for years, since they helped to create it. No Israelis or Palestinians should be deliberately killed in pursuit of the removal of Hamas.

There were always another ways to respond to the Hamas attack. More considered and surgical ways. The problem was that BiBi was caught with his pants down. The most surveilled "border" in the world, manned by 24x7 monitors, cameras, drones, automated weapons systems allows 100's of Hamas militants through without alarms is very, very strange. Something that the world is yet to get clarity on.

He had to go in strong and hard to save face with the consequences we can all see. It won't save him though.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Some of your posts on this thread have been quite considered, Seph, but this seems distinctly at odds with them. Emotion seems to have taken precedence over analysis.

Whilst the 7 October terrorist attacks were barbarous, this did not logically mean Israel had to respond in a way that left 13,000 people dead. They responded in this way to try and save Netanyahu's power and not for the long-term benefit of the people of Israel.