Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t think you’ve grasped the problem with that! Brexiteers voted to regain their sovereignty and to forge our own trade deals to increase the wealth-making capacity of this country.

Re-joining the Single Market and Customs Union puts us in a worse position than had we not left the EU. Why on Earth would any sensible person want that?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I was explaining to Seph how trade friction could be avoided which seems to be his objective. I noted he wouldn't like the solution!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Our European friends have supplied us with millions of vaccine doses. That situation was not about threatening the UK, it was about putting pressure on AstraZeneca. How many doses have we supplied our European friends with?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The factories in Europe that we signed contracts with supplied millions of vaccines as per contractual agreement, the Eu supplied nothing that i am aware of.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed it is the EU that is threatening to stop shipments of vaccine to this country as contracted for.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah ... let's knock this on the head right now.

To reiterate Papa's point: The EU supplied us with nothing. The British government has contracts with private companies. These have supplied the vaccine. To claim the EU was somehow responsible for this, and that we should be grateful, is to normalise the idea that normal rules of trade and contract exist only at the whim of governments. That says nothing good about respect for rule of law within the EU.

We have no reason to be grateful, or to consider the EU our 'friends', just because they have not yet arbitrarily intervened in the normal flow of international trade between their territory and ours. The same, sadly, cannot be said for Australia.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK's relationship with the EU is like Sky's with VM's. They'll co-operate when it's in their interests and will compete with each other when it's not.

To pretend that the two are enemies as some suggest is ridiculous and dangerous. The UK's enemies are more likely to be countries Iran and Russia.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But the very fact that the EU have not switched off the tap is a friendly act, is it not? If preventing vaccine exports is an unfriendly act, how do we stand with the USA? Is India being unfriendly by stopping Serum Institute manufactured vaccine exports?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Russia hasn't nuked us . . . I guess that means we're friends? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Eh? Not at all. "They" refers to the UK and the EU.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 ----------

It means we're alive! :D

Poisoning a British police officer in Salisbury with novichok is not the most friendly of gestures.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is nonsense on stilts. Respect for rule of law isn't a deliberate friendly act. It's neutral. We don't decide each morning whether we're going to follow the rules today. Normal behaviour is simply to do so, and nobody should expect to get a pat on the back for it.

Following the financial crisis of 2008, the UK made bilateral loans to the Republic of Ireland that allowed that country to access finance on more favourable terms than it could secure by going to the money markets directly. That's an example of a deliberate, friendly act. It went over and above the normal rules (while not breaking them) in order to help a neighbour.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Further to the point about the USA, the American decision to invoke emergency defence laws to prevent drug exports was known and understood from a very early stage and was factored into the purchase agreements HMG signed with drugmakers with facilities there. There was no arbitrary, unfriendly attempt to intervene in a privately negotiated contract after the fact.

The EU's behaviour has been quite different. It has, in essence, alleged breach of contract, for which they ought to seek remedy in the courts. However, instead of going to court, they have acted as judge and jury and made regulations allowing them to intervene directly, effectively making a judicial ruling in their own favour.

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Well, to be fair to them, that Anglophobe Varadkar didn't become teeshirt until 2017.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

??? That's exactly what the EU is doing.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...rt-2021-04-28/

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

False equivalence.

A Telegraph op ed writer doesn't fully appreciate that the UK is now a third country, I get that. But it doesn't mean anyone's being royally stiffed over.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

OK, so if I understand, preventing vaccine exports AND preventing the export of materials that allow other countries to make vaccines is all cool but suggesting that you might do similar is not.

If the EU just stopped exports without threatening to do so beforehand, that would be OK? I guess that is how the UK prohibits exports of lifesaving drugs..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Having already taken extrajudicial measures, as you well know. Australia has been denied a shipment, others have been threatened.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Says it all doesn't it, and lawyers 'demanding' something isn't (to my knowledge) the same as 'going to court' :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Correct, stamping your feet and shouting demands isn't quite the same as a judicial hearing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It depends upon the circumstances in which you say it. In the bath, possibly not :D but at a court hearing like this one, yes.

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

You said that the EU ought to seek remedy in the courts. I pointed out that they are doing exactly this. Hopefully we can concur on this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, because if their intention was to abide by the rule of law this would have been their first and only action. What they’re doing now is giving themselves political cover - they’re aiming for exactly what you’re far too eager to give them, which is to get people to forget their heavy-handed and clumsy foray into foreign policy and to fix their attention on the subsequent PR effort.

Regretfully you’re sounding a bit like a regime apologist today.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You're crediting the EU's actions on vaccine procurement with more respect than they deserve, Chris. They've blundered along like a drunk in a dark alleyway and eventually have reached the correct route with this week's court hearings.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So you think the EU are correct in challenging an agreement they made with AstraZeneca which - apparently - contained the phrase "best reasonable efforts", and now because the incompetent and 'tight-arsed' EU realise their mistake they're also demanding vaccine from from the UK, who made a much better deal.

get that chip off your shoulder mate, it's dragging you down :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What I'm saying - and I do hope you're able to step up and agree with me on this - is that if the EU or any other purchaser has a dispute with the AstraZeneca then they should sort it out with them, using the courts as a last resort. They shouldn't resort to back door solutions like blocking exports.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The post you quote was posted by someone else entirely - jonbxx! :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A senior moment :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How it started:
How it finshed:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...st-time-since/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Especially when we were promised downsides wouldn't happen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm pretty sure David Davis didn't have in mind the sort of sanctions the civilised world reserves for rogue states. Why would he have?

You sound more and more like Lord Haw-Haw, Andrew.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

French fishermen are amongst the most militant workers in Europe and known for their undue influence. To pretend otherwise is delusional.

But in the context of this situation, I'm very dubious of this threat getting remotely close to being carried out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fuller explanation from the Jersey local press.

https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2...ng-row-erupts/

I think the French have over-reacted.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

French fishermen over-react? Surely not. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never negotiate with terrorists ;) just cuz they have swing in France means nothing they have no swing here

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah ... I'm pretty sure that characterising David Davis' comments as delusional for not allowing for the militancy French fishermen is missing his point by quite a bit. One might even suspect you're wilfully doing so.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

French fishermen were a known quantity in 2016. If you choose to ignore that, so be it.
That being said, I believe the electricity threat to be an empty one. Those making the threat are deluded too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

For cod sake what next!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I suspected ... wilful ignorance. If this is the best you can do, I won’t trouble you any further.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

UK sends Royal Navy ships to patrol Jersey amid fishing row with France

Fishermen who claim their rights are being unfairly restricted are protesting at Jersey's St Helier port.

No 10 said it was sending two Navy vessels to "monitor the situation".

HMS Severn, which has previously been used to shadow Russian navy warships off the English coast, and HMS Tamar arrived near Jersey on Thursday morning.

The ships are routinely used for fisheries protection - with sailors able to board other boats for spot checks.


Oh dear how sad for the poor french fishermen, i feel sure that in the fullness of time these fishing permits can be sorted out but as the EU knows the wheels of bureaucracy turn extremely slowly ,i'm sure given 6-15 years it can be ironed out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57003069

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just another distraction from Boris's home life.;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

French military ship heads to Jersey to join post-Brexit fishing protest as Royal Navy patrols waters


French authorities have confirmed to Sky News that a patrol vessel, Military Ops ship Athos, will be arriving "imminently" to carry out a "patrol mission

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-to-sen...-port-12297840


It's all getting exiting now -ww scallop?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, it was very obliging of French politicians to help Boris out by threatening to cut off Jersey's electricity supply. And those French fishermen are obviously massive Boris fans, cluttering the port like that.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No just more opportunism from Boris trying to be Churchillian.;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No matter. The French will bravely run away shortly :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nice to see the Telegraph being selective in their history...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1620297014

Forgetting to mention the other aspects, like deporting the Jewish people in Jersey to the death camps, deporting other Islanders en masse to Germany, where many died in labour camps, sending Jersey Resistance members to concentration camps, built fortifications using forced labour, which killed thousands of imported slave labourers, amongst many other horrific actions.

But at least they kept the lights on...

(my brother has lived in Jersey for nearly 30 years, having moved there in the 90s - the locals do not remember the Occupation fondly, so this headline is going down like a turd in a trifle)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But everybody knows Adolf and Eva were perfect dinner guests, as long as you kept the conversation off religion and politics ...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Are you saying the Nazis didn't do the things I referred to? :confused:

The Telegraph is comparing the current farrago with the Nazi occupation, and highlighting part of the Nazi occupation as a positive against what is currently happening - "tone deaf" doesn't even begin to describe it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I quite fancy Fish & Ships for lunch . . . with scraps :bsmack:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So when jersey insists on treaty arrangements being adhered to and not trying to 'to understand and help ease the problems', it's send in the gunboats time. Jersey is not being very friendly towards France here it seems

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Smeg head :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Except it isn't...

https://www.theislandwiki.org/index...._and_Rationing https://the-history-girls.blogspot.c...in-ww2-by.html You state They are comparing the Nazis positively against the French - the Nazis also made the trains run on time, but we don't use them as a comparison when LNER/GW/Arriva trains are late, because it was where they made the trains run on time to was the major issue...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As we've seen today, it's not me who is falsely claiming the Nazis kept the electricity on in Jersey. That's the Brexit-supporting Daily Telegraph.;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never mind what the bloody papers say (either pro or anti Brexit), when are we gonna grow a pair and sink a few boats :sniper: :Yes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You may wish to relay that to the Government "source" who said it, and the Telegraph which gave it such prominence… ;)

Anyhoo, back in the Land of Not Comparing Things to Nazis, the Times gives a non-emotional view on this idiocy…

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...rsey-dst59fl9j

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As ex-Military, it always concerns me when people who haven’t been in "the line of fire" seem keen for others (not themselves) to be placed in harm’s way… :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Military or not, if anyone threatens me or family they get one warning before hell breaks loose :p:


Probably the reason I never joined up to be honest, I'd have even had the Red Arrows fitted with napalm :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Totally understand your reasoning on a personal level, but at a nation-state level, it's a bit different - lot more can go wrong, lot more people can get hurt.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The argument the French fisherman seem to have is that the terms of the licences they have (or indeed have not) been granted was changed at the last minute. Any changes needed to be non-discriminatory, scientifically based and notified in advance and I understand that this was not done.

Apparently, the Commission is in talks with the UK and Jersey on these changes.

That said, a lot of this will blow over at, ooh, about one minute past ten tonight...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It is obviously an attempt at humour. Not really getting exorcised over.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

'Next time it will be WAR!' – French fishermen vow 'we will be back' after fleeing Jersey


https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-navy-standoff


All this boat barging and bumping is just like a busy day on the Norfolk broads.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Most of the French boats cleared off around half past 3, presumably once they’d finished lunch. All quite civilised really.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The French boats made me post on another site:

I got grief for that from French posters of course. All blaming Brexit.

So I replied, and they all went silent.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On one of the islands they actually built a death camp for post invasion British Jews iirc. Imo if anyone is being silly it's that paper, my grandfather was sub editor or something there years ago, I doubt he'd recognise the paper now sadly.

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Vichy France that rounded up more Jews than the Nazis asked for, they need reminding of that at every opportunity imo until they recognise their history

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Mostly…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57001584

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In context, the headline is correct.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Except, as posted today @12:27, post #863, it isn’t…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

By Christmas 1944, electricity was no longer available. Candles became scarce, and winter evenings were spent in semi-darkness by the light of a tin can full of oil, with a bootlace for a wick..


Sounds like the 70s.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Then perhaps those quotes would have been better to lead with rather than the atrocities we all know the Nazis were guilty of.

Re: Britain outside the E
 

Perhaps I was highlighting the inappropriateness of using Nazis* as a standalone positive comparator, whilst ignoring the full picture…


*using the old "remember how bad the Nazis were, well, the French are worse" approach…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the E
 

Or you could also add the British invented concentration camps and were complicit in the selling of of millions of slaves, as well as many other atrocities, depends what you want as your comparator.

Re: Britain outside the E
 

Big difference between British South African concentration camps and nazi death camps, so big as not to be comparable imo

Re: Britain outside the E
 

But the topic of conversation was "Nazis in the CIs being compared to current day French actions" and I was highlighting the inappropriateness of the Government source’s comment, as relayed to me by someone who lives there.

We could, of course, have raised the point of the French taking back Normandy and Anjou in the early 1200s, but there comes a point when it’s obvious one is just trying to obfuscate and derail the debate…

Re: Britain outside the E
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What kind of person negotiates a deal like that? Best have a word with the person who negotiated it! :D
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57075664

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You're starting to sound like my wife, she sometimes asks questions where she already knows the answer. She thinks she's being clever too ;) :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure you're both clever. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One of us, not saying which one :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Strangely enough, earlier this week...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-jersey-57068658 Why don't the French use this? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here it is from the horse’s mouth (the Jersey Government)

http://www.gov.je/News/2021/Pages/FisheriesUpdate.aspx Excellent passive-aggressiveness there - we didn’t want to leave, they made us do it… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who didn't see the 'Brexit is the fault of the EU' argument coming? I thought Brexit was the route to the land of opportunity and people voted leave for a brighter future, not because French people were nasty to them.