re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ah yes, the Rotterdam effect.

IIRC someone estimated it inflated the EU export figure by around 10 percentage points. Must see if I can dig out a linky.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't be surprised if all the pro EU sources of that sort of information are down for routine maintenance until July... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I couldn't agree more with you. My reasons are many fold and we all have our own. You are correct. I believe staying will mean more of the same, if not worse. There is a school of thought that says the referendum may not be totally legal. If this is true, who are they to tell us what's legal and what's not in our own country. Yet another reason to get out.

Rotterdam I don't know much about, I'd have to research that one.

You may also want to take a look at this. I've been saying I can't see how this so called agreement can be legally binding and found this in my research:

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85917 IN Voters take note of this too.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is a article here about trade: https://fullfact.org/europe/do-half-...rts-go-europe/

It's not unique to Rotterdam, other ports would have the same effect. It does inflate the trade into the EU but it actually could also effect imports from the EU as well:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...m-effect-.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know the Govt is really dragging its heels over showing how many 'Active Nat Insurance numbers it's given out, which is a disturbing lack of transparency. Especially as the numbers may not match the official 'people - in' figure...

For me the big issue will be that the whole campaign will be like this, with lies or porkies at least told, misinformation & fear.

We're not on a level playing field and its bs

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The giveaway is that if you take the stats at face value, the Netherlands is our third-largest trading partner, which is obvious bollards when you think about it.

The problem is, while it is obvious not everything we send in to Europort is destined for Dutch consumption, it's impossible to put a figure on how big the distortion is, because some of what we send there is indeed intended for the Netherlands, and some of it is for elsewhere in the EU, which means is is legitimate to include it in an overall figure for our exports to the EU.

If you exclude the Netherlands altogether, the percentage of our exports supposedly bound for the EU drops by 10 points. If you assume half of it is genuinely EU bound, then you knock 5 points off the total. We don't know precisely what the effect is, but given the supposed size of our exports to a nation of 16 million, we can say for sure that it does exist.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very interesting. Never looked at it that way. Amazing what you can do with stats to get the answer you want and that's what our Governments have been doing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

if there's so much to hide then its time to get out .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More here

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I so wish we could get this over with and i can vote NO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now why would HMG wish to grossly understate the migration numbers I wonder? :confused:


:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 13:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Look at it this way, - we need to use the time we have to argue to case for 'out' to as many people as we can. If HMG could have set the date sooner I'm sure they would have done. The last thing they want is more time for the truth to come out.

You can bet your life that if the circumstances had been different (i.e. all things EU been getting better), our glorious leaders would have set the date further into the future. As it is they know more chaos lies ahead so they're doing everything they can to try to keep us in. I just hope the great British public see through this deception and base their decision on what we've actually learned about the nature of the EU since the 1970's rather than the lies and scare stories being put about.

We must get out before it's too late!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I actually think their timing is deliberate. This so-called deal is still fresh in the mind.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

National insurance number applications (NINOS) do not and never have matched the number of migrants entering this country ,because of time lag between a migrant entering the country and applying for a NI means they are notoriously unreliable as a way to measure immigrant numbers.Also in recent years there have been a number of government initiatives aimed at getting people of the black economy and working legally ,these would include migrants working illegally at your kebab shop to the 50,000 Romanies granted NI numbers to try to get them to work legally,these are people who have been in the country for years ,some even born here.There is also NI fraud where multiple applications are made

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hawking might just be wrong link :shrug:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Agreed!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Toodle pip Mr Spounging Europe :D:D ..

it was good knowing you when it mattered Now your like a huge pointless unsightly spot on our Arsenal.


Byeeeeeeeeeeeee :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Get the message out there folks. Don't keep it to yourselves! :tu:

The vested interests who want us shackled to the EU have massive resources and to win this battle ordinary people have to get off their bottoms, spread the word and vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There are a number of powerful people who want out of the EU as well, i.e a lot of the press, this isn't the ordinary people against the elites. It's two groups of people who disagree with each other.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well said my friend. Like the Scottish referendum the Yes Campaign thought they had it won and had to do nothing. The IN Campaign in this case think they have it won and are only spreading fear and doom to ensure their victory. The Yougov Poll of Polls has IN 51%, OUT 49%. Yes folks it's that close. All these forums have OUT leading by a big margin but this is the one most go by.

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No they didn't. The Yes campaign were far more active and cohesive than the No campaign. Big rallies, massive online presence and a really active set of activists who were going to every town, every door and every Internet comment section to campaign for a Yes vote. The No campaign won in the end but prior to the vote it the polls were a lot further out than they become and it was far too close.

And to go back to the Scotland example it turned out some fears are real. The 'project fear' campaign then turned out to have saved Scotland from some considerable economic consequences.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know, that's why I did say ACTIVE numbers...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I didn't say the 'elite' ALL want us in. What I said was that if we're going to get out ORDINARY people have to get us out and that's a fact.

All the major political parties want us to stay in and they have far more power and influence both within the UK and EU than those who want out do.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Which doesn't make any difference .inactive or dormant numbers only happen when people die or do not use the number to claim benefits,live abroad in some cases or have not worked .Using NI numbers whether active or inactive as a tool to count migrants does not work .Only conspiracy rags like the Sun think it does

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well Osbourne has thrown a sprat to catch a whale by hinting on what's in the upcoming budget on Wednesday. He's painting a picture of doom and gloom as regards our economy. Obviously a trick to manipulate an IN vote.

What angers me is he is planning on cutting disability benefits but as usual making the rich richer. Why doesn't her go after them in order to sort out the economy if it's as bad as he makes out?

No doubt I'll have something to say on the EU after I hear him on the Andrew Marr show this morning - Assuming he allows him to speak that is. Boris ran rings round Marr last week and that's why he kept interrupting him.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think it's a trick. I mean it hardly looks good on him that he the economy continues to be rather stagnant and that he keeps having to revise his outlook and plans every six months. He is 6 years into the job now.

Besides you can see the economy is still rather concerning around the world. Asia has been really turbulent, the US fears a recession, Europe continues to muddle along between recession or flatlining growth.

This isn't all about Britain and the EU.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 ----------

I agree he shouldn't cut disability benefit in order to fund a tax cut but we are talking about the 40p tax band which kicks in around £42,000. Hardly 'rich'.

Still I do wonder how he can continue to justify cutting more and more of disability benefit. He had public support for job seekers allowance, child benefit and so on but going after people who are disabled is pretty risky and inhumane. This benefit is a budget which allows a greater degree of personal liberty from what i understand, i.e money to account for the additional costs facing disabled people such as taxi fares instead of buses, so why bother cutting that? :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/03/12.jpg

These posters will be plastered all over the place. Note the date. Bet the stay lot never saw that coming. :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What I mean is he's not touching the richest therefore in effect giving them more while we get less. I'd love to go out to work but that's looking less and less likely as I'm finding it harder to walk these days and my eyesight is getting worse. Who is going to employ a 62 year old blind cripple. Damned Arthritis should be banned lol.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Fair enough. I am surprised at the amount they go after the disabled and still get away with it. I think they're banking on the fact that few people know what these benefits actually are and what they're used for and play on the stereotype that benefit-claimants are like the family in Shameless rather than people in genuine need.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

OK. Osbourne on Andrew Marr didn't do anything in my opinion to convince me to stay in the EU. Quite the opposite, in fact. Why would we want to stay in a Union that's flat on it's back with a dying economy when we can come out and concentrate on our own economy. He is looking to save £18 bn by the end of the decade. It doesn't take brains to realise if we came out the EU he could save more than that instead of taking it from those who can't afford it.

In my opinion the EU is a dying duck as far as the UK is concerned. It's heading towards closer political integration and the Eurozone is collapsing. They must sort out the economy then they may have a chance. I predict one country called Europa.

With Turkey seeking to join the EU, I can only see nothing but trouble with Migrants coming in through that route. They will be granted freedom of movement soon thought admittedly it will be a while before they are full members.

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------

I agree there people claiming DLA that shouldn't be getting it and that something needs to be done about that. Recently, I had to fill in a back to work form which I find ridiculous as they know my situation. They know it's incurable and my circumstances will never change. Why go after the likes of me when they should be chasing the work-shy shisters who have no place on DLA. Later this year I'll have to prove myself unfit again having just given them the information as DLA is changing to PIP. And they wonder why we get angry?

Of course, I strayed off the subject sorry all.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My accountant sent me this email a week ago:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We can but hope

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One courtesy of Gordon Brown that Mr Osborne hasn't seen fit to remedy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep. Strange.......wonder why not? :dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Probably because it would be even more expensive to do so now considering how much the Personal Allowance has gone up since 2010. I think that policy, rising it, was one of the better moves of the Government. Next up should be rising the NI threshold so that the lower paid are completely lifted out of income tax or just combining the two.

Rumor is that fuel duty is about to be raised though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

In our dreams.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Read the rest of Tony Parsons critique here

Be afraid, be very afraid.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Totally agree with this. In the past referred to the Sick Man Of Europe, nothing has changed. If Erdoğan continues to get his way, Turkey will soon become a pariah state ...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Project Fear! :D

I think that article is overblown.

For a start if we took it at face value then there leaving the EU won't make a difference. We already have control of the border since we're not part of the Schengen agreement. The danger would remain that these people could move though Europe and sit in Calais waiting for a chance to sneak across but that would be true irrespective of if we were in the EU or not. In fact If we did leave the EU then we would also have no ability to stop Turkey joining!

So it's hard to see what difference voting to leave will make in respect to our security there. The other question is how likely is it that Turkey will join? Every member must agree for the succession of a new state. That includes France and, currently, Britain.

If you're that worried about EU policy in this respect then the best option is to vote to remain so we can stop Turkey joining in the first place. His argument makes no sense.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

On the contrary getting out of this madness is the right policy IMO. Let the rest of the EU wallow in Turkish migrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I hope you understand how much the few sentences above make it seem you're totally clueless about Britain's relationship with the EU, An what being A EU citizen means when it comes to moving/living in the UK.

Open borders no, but EU citizen status will get you into the UK. A little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well every single state would have to agree to their accession which I think is unlikely and France need a super majority in the senate to overrule their people getting a referendum on any new state joining. We too can veto it if we remain a member.

As I said his argument is flawed. The best way to protect ourselves from Turkey joining the EU and the increased instability it may bring would be by remaining inside the EU and stopping it. I fail to see what leaving would achieve because we can leave the EU but we'll still be on Europe's doorstep.

I know what the EU means and I know the rules about freedom of movement. It's a fairly basic part of the EU. If you read the article and the post I am talking specifically about the argument made in that article regarding the borders of Turkey. No need to be so mean-spirited about it especially when you had to deliberately misrepresent my post to do so.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I for one don't think our negotiating position with the EU will be enhanced if we stay in. If anything we'll be in a weaker position having had the chance to get out and decided to stay in. We've been trying to get reform in the EU for years and loom where it's got us. The notion that they'll suddenly start listening to the UK is naïve IMHO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you're being mean-spirited and deliberately misrepresenting my post. I quite clearly started my post with "I hope you understand" an then went to explain how your post may make you look as if you do not understand the UK's relationship with the EU.

I then left it open for you to reply and clear up any misunderstanding. It is very mean spirited of you to attack me and claim I misrepresented your post. I do not expect an apology.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We'll have a veto. Doesn't matter if they listen to us, we'll still be able to block it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't you believe it. The EU has form on being able to circumvent any veto through other routes.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My post had nothing to do with freedom of movement and you ended with 'a little bit of knowledge is a terrible thing'. Your intention is clear.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:12 ----------

They haven't been able to do so with the vetos we have used.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You mean the Vetos we used but were ignored? I mean you do understand we have used vetos that have counted for nothing and they have been ignored.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

Oh dear lol, oh dear oh dear ................

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Genuine question as I don't know, has the UK vetoed another state from trying to join, and who vetoes? it's not the people, it's the Govt right?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah it's the government. France has a law that obliges it to be put to a referendum but that can be overruled with a super majority in their Senate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the "rule" is pointless as far as the general population is concerned.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Isn't that what is called Democracy? The Government decides on behalf of the people unless it concludes that it does not have a mandate to do so ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yeah right. They'll find a way to do what they want just like they always have.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's for sure. They will see us as weak. Remember that this 'deal' Cameron made has to be agreed by the European Parliament long after the referendum. The other 27 Countries also have to sell the deal to their own Parliaments and there will be people in these Countries who won't be happy with it. After all, why should the UK be treated any different to the rest? We're all in the same boat after all.

What I believe will happen is that not all Euro MPs will vote for this deal and there is a scenario where it may not even get through. In that event all this will have been for nothing and a lot of money will have been wasted. It will be very difficult for the UK to get anything more out of the EU if we stay.

---------- Post added at 09:17 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

Yes we have a veto but Osbourne wouldn't commit to using it on the Andrew Marr show. IMHO I doubt they would veto Turkey joining as there are another potential 70 million customers for our trade should we stay in.

The point is that if we do remain in the EU we won't have the same clout we do now as they will think we are too feart to leave and they can walk all over us should they chose to.

Also this so-called voice we have by being in the EU is a fallacy to an extent. Every time we make a suggestion we are outnumbered 27/1 until we convince other Countries otherwise as are they. Do you really believe they listen to us now and will listen any more if we stay? I think we've shot our bolt with the EU by holding this referendum and I think reading between the lines Osbourne does too and going by that, the rest of the Tory Party.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The one true veto is OUT. To quote The Beatles "Hello, Goodbye".

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No it isn't. Did you know that Russia is more democratic than we are? Let me explain what I mean. Though it's a One-Party-State, everyone has a say from the person in the street up to the top man. We do not. If Russia had 2 Parties or more it would be the most democratic country in the world.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------

Oh dear! What have we started?

Falling like dominoes: Now Dutch wants own EU vote & Czechs say they might leave

DUTCH voters have demanded their own in/out referendum on EU membership amid fears in Brussels the whole 28-country bloc is under threat.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Claude-Juncker

Is The EU Dead?

https://cfrankdavis.wordpress.com/20...s-the-eu-dead/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why doesn't Russia have 2 parties or more? We do have a say, but just like in Russia wether or not anyone listens is another story.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

cos it's the way it is in Russia. When I say they have more say than us I mean the man in the street holds a meeting. That meeting passes their ideas up the chain to the district who pass it up the chain to the Council and so on till it reaches the top.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am struggling how this justifies the claim Russia are more democratic than us or really how what you say works in practice. It actually sounds rather sinister and reminiscent of the Stasi.

You can get your voice heard in the UK. Write to your MP, phone radio stations and so on. It's just that with 65 million people you become a voice in the wind. Russia has 143 million so I doubt Putin is hearing from the 'man in the street'.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am not sure too many people in the West would agree with you on this point.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm not sure many people in Russia would agree with him.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They'd agree or it'd be dose of polonium...

Ignore them Big Brian, I know what you were trying to say. You've entered a hornets nest joining this forum!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No he hasn't , he has entered a forum with a unbiased moderating team. So you're free to put your point forward, but you're going to also have to read other users responses.

The fact I am not banned shows how tolerant, unbiased, none political this forum really is. Forums like this (there is not many) really do show the unedited opinions of poeple for all walk of life. From surviving on minimal benefits, to living on very very good earnings.

An my dyslexia is almost never mentioned lol.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Err, not currently banned that's true !

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why would I get banned? Abusive name calling? Threatening? Ect???

I do and will at times defend my "point" but that's because I believe in what I say. I can only be me, I cannot change to avoid a ban. I suspect you would love me banned. I wouldn't want you banned it's important to read your views. It's even more important to understand why you formed those views. An your daily posts makes your political beliefs and the reasoning behind them very clear.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I say leave Russia to the Russians and get to grips with the pathetic reality that the UK has managed to achieve virtually zero reform of the EEC/EU from the inside. Not only that but in spite of wanting us to stay in, Cameron has been offered diddly squat at a time when there's a very reasonable possibility that we'll pull out. All of that strongly suggests to me that a) the EU can't/won't be reformed, b) they've never wanted the UK's preferred vision of Europe, c) they'd rather we leave than change and d) if we don't leave we can expect to have even less influence because any threat of the EU's second largest net contributor upping sticks will have gone. They'll have won the battle of wills and we'll be condemned to the EU's very own version of a nightmare.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Please don't ignore us :) Seriously, there are not many definitions of democracy that do match Putin's Russia. I am sure the Soviets referred to by Brian don't put forward policy ideas that depart radically from Putin's agenda.

A very special version of Russian democracy

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm glad you do. I had to do it for a Modern Studies Exam in the 80s that's how I know.

Not so much a hornet's nets but some just don't have a clue of politics and that's fine by me.

No it doesn't mean they are listened to but that's how it works.

---------- Post added at 19:02 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

I don't think I'm local to you as I said in my opening post on here I can't find one for my area but it's nice to have a decent debate for a change. I've been on other forums where people just don't have a clue and spout drivel all the time.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm sure many think you don't have a clue an spout drivel "all the time" .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting "debating" style.

Please explain why "some just don't have a clue of politics"? I am also interested to know how a Modern Studies Exam in the 80s relates to the Russia of 2016 ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Russia ... or rather the USSR ... was a one-party communist state when you studied it in the 80s. Progression within the party was by patronage and disagreement with the party could be injurious to one's health.

There was a brief experiment with the democratic election of communist officials at the very end, but the USSR fell apart pretty soon after that.

Russia today is (in theory) a pluralist democracy, but intimidation of opposition parties and their supporters is rife and in practice there is no democracy worthy of the name.

I won't be surprised if you also think RT is a great news channel that cuts through the western propaganda to tell us what the world (according to uncle Vlad) is really like.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have to say that the output of RT and Radio Sputnik would be 'worthy' of Donald Trump.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just some comments have a lack of understanding on the EU that's all I meant nothing more. For example:

All the red tape our Ministers have to go through to make decisions for our own country for example. Things come across their desks and they are constantly told they can't do it as they would infringe EU laws even if the things they want to do benefit the UK.

Regarding Russia. Anyone who thinks they are not still a communist country is wrong. Yes they have mellowed a bit but they are still communist.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wonder how much of that is ministers hiding behind Europe because then they don't have to act, make decisions, be unpopular etc etc we've just given them a fat pay rise when they're doing less work than ever.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Your last paragraph just proves my point and I would be interested to know what led you to that conclusion. The point I was making was Russia, despite Putin's so-called democracy is still a Communist Country. Doesn't matter which Part get in they are one and the same. They just have different ways of going about it. Hence One-Party-State.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I now understand the point you're making but your use of the term "one party state" is factually incorrect and confuses the issue ...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. One man's idiot is another man's genius. Donald Trump is very popular despite his views. Like it or not he feels he has the right to say it unlike our Russian friends.

Anyway, back to the EU. Yes we have a voice but who listens? How many times have we been voted down on things that could only have enhanced the EU? It's a voice in the wilderness and will get weaker if we stay in as they will see the UK having no stones and will walk all over us. Staying in the EU will send a message to them that we are happy with the situation and they will then ask themselves what all the fuss was about. We would have a louder voice by not being affiliated to anyone.

Leaving the EU would also allow us to grow our economy by negotiating our own trade agreements with our own rules. We don't need to follow the example of Canada, Norway or Switzerland to achieve this. Despite what some people think, Britain is more than capable of standing on her own two feet on the world stage and achieving what they want.

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Couldn't agree more. I dare say some of them do hide behind the mask of the EU and these are probably the ones who want to remain in that den of vipers.

Interesting about the fat pay rise though and them saying they don't listen to independent bodies who award such things. The Junior Doctors used that against the Government saying "No? You listened when they gave you an 11% pay rise though." Sorry I digress.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 ----------

My apologies for the confusion.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But you said "Did you know that Russia is more democratic than we are?" Anyway, I hope we can all agree we would rather be living here than in Russia :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35808955

Obama, Nato,... Who'd have thought?...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So says Professor Patrick Minford*.

Read full article here


*Patrick Minford is Professor of Applied Economics of Cardiff Business School.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I did. That's how it was put to me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why would leaving the EU hurt NATO they're separate organisations, plus given we were in NATO from 1949 (which for the hard of thinking is quite a while before 1973 - which is when we joined the EU) Not being part of Europe then, didn't seem to hurt anyone. Honestly the Septics need to know when to stfu.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The UK would indeed still be part of those organisations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron came up with a good one stating that jobs would be lost - they are being lost right now mate - anyway if we exit then you will loose your job old bean.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He lied about it to if we're talking about the same thing. It's from a 16 year old report that states 3 million jobs rely on trade with Europe. In the next paragraph it also states that if we leave the EU there is no reason to expect the loss of any of these jobs as they rely on the trade not the actual EU, that's if we are talking about the same thing. Well done Dave you just convinced me to vote leave, I don't like people trying to make mug out of me, not when I'm perfectly capable of making one out of myself without anyone's assistance

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's the same lie that the Lib-dems, remember them, used to peddle and the TV interviewers never picked them up on it. Presumably they were happy to perpetrate the lie.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of Course. Are they not trying to manipulate a Remain vote while seeming impartial?

---------- Post added at 09:21 ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 ----------

100 DAYS UNTIL EU REFERENDUM: New poll puts UK on course for Brexit

BRITAIN is on course to quit the EU after a new poll revealed the UK public is ready to back Brexit with just 100 days to go until the historic in/out referendum.



By Greg Heffer, Political Reporter

PUBLISHED: 13:53, Tue, Mar 15, 2016 | UPDATED: 17:25, Tue, Mar 15, 2016

In a huge boost for the Brexit campaign, a new ORB survey has signalled the Leave camp currently holds a seven-point lead over those wanting the UK to remain in the EU.

The poll, on behalf of the Daily Telegraph, shows the battle for Britain’s future is currently deadlocked, with Remain on 47 per and Leave on 48 per cent.

But, when the study is adjusted to take into account people’s likelihood to vote, the Brexit campaign would win by 52 per cent to 45 per cent.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...n-Project-Fear

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, the main news bulletins are balanced enough in content but story order is another thing. When it comes to current affairs programs then the bias kicks in. Possibly not editorially but many of the interviewers seem to go easy on stay whilst heavy on leave interviewees.

No surprise there, the demographic most likely to vote are the older age group who remember the systematic lies that got us in in the first place and then the decades of lies about the common market when they knew all along it was an EU superstate that was in the making.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct. I was only 21 at the time of the last vote but had the sense to see what was coming. I've been political since I was a child and my father and I had some right ding-dongs over the years. Though my parents voted for the Common Market, I believe they regret that now and will be voting out. He's a died-in-the-wool Tory but I won't hold that against him.

The only poll that counts is the one in 99 days time and at this moment I can only see one verdict by the good people of the UK - OUT! though it's the younger generation we have to convince. they seem to think it's a good thing this EU. Off to watch the Budget soon though I don't know why as there is never anything in it for the likes of me. LOL!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wonder if the budget was aimed at trying to get more people on side

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

if it was it failed with me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EEC went through a sort of de-metamorphosis and became the ugly EU so it's no surprise that those with good intentions in the 70's feel duped.

Young people especially need to decide whether they want to live in a democracy or a bureaucracy. Conceding the democratic system that has served this Country so well is the real leap into the dark.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, nobody voted for what we have now and it is an indictment of previous governments that we have until now been deprived of a say on something as fundamental as this.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Those with good intentions as you so delicately put it were warned by those of us who voted against that this was what would happen. They only have themselves to blame for not listening.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 ----------

I believe it was but he failed massively just as he failed on all his targets and promises made at the past 2 elections. Again the rich get richer, this time at the expense of the disabled, while the rest of us suffer yet again with stealth taxes. In my opinion all he did was manipulate the figures to make it look as if he was still on target for 2020.

What really angered me was him using it as a political platform to put the Remain point across about being safer and more secure in a reformed EU. Has the EU actually been reformed? This was unfair to the Leave Campaign as we could not respond. Are the INNERS working to a script I wonder as they say word for word the same things?

I don't think it's any coincidence that Obama is visiting next month either. It's no secret how he feels about us remaining in the EU. Talk about bringing out the big guns. They must be worried about the possibility of losing the vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It was - this had the look of a pre-election giveaway budget. Normally at this stage in the electoral cycle a chancellor would be doing really unpopular things while he could get away with it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But we did by returning a succession of pro-european parties in to government.

Cheers

Grim

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Apart from the early eighteis we didn't have much of a choice as I recall after Labour became EU friendly.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No, we didn't - any more than Scotland voted for separation by electing the SNP, as the outcome of the 2014 referendum proved.

We elect a government with a broad manifesto. Nobody is in love with every line of that manifesto; it's just a matter of picking the one that's the best fit with your own views.

An EU referendum has not been a top priority until now. That's not to say it wouldn't have been welcomed, had it happened. In fact, with the state the EU is now in, I'd say the stars have aligned quite nicely.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct! :tu:

At no point were we given the chance to decide whether we should be part of a single European state. In what way could those of us who didn't want to be part of that have the chance to vote to stop it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Two points:

One of the main aspirations of the SNP is independence and aren't they already mumbling about having another go party based on the mandate inferred by their majority (didn't really want to take this thread to far off course - sure there's a thread for this elsewhere)

I accept (sadly) that manifestos are usually lacking, but using your logic if the stance on Europe was important then more people would/could/should have moved it up their list of priorities when selecting the manifesto that best suited them. We have had choice but the election results show (using your manifesto argument) that our relationship with Europe is well down the electorates list of priorities.

As you know, the government is elected to represent our best interests on a national and international level. We 'trust' them to do the job on our behalf and as such we have voted to stay in Europe every time we've elected a pro-european party.

Now I'm not saying our past actions have been right or wrong, I'm just saying it as I see it. I think many of you would be surprised to know I'm leaning more to out as the days tick by.

Cheers

Grim

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The problem with your argument is that you effectively make every general election into a referendum on a single issue (EU membership). If the EU is sufficiently low in people's priorities, e.g. they may not like it, but are prepared to tolerate it for the time being, then it is quite possible for them to vote for a manifesto whose position on the EU is the exact opposite of their own, simply because everything else that manifesto says is more attractive to them.

You are right, the SNP is all about independence, but you're ignoring the fact that the same electorate that voted the SNP into power in 2011, also voted against independence in 2014. This is because in 2011, everything else the SNP had to say about the governance of Scotland, was more appealing to the electorate than that said by the main opposition (Labour).