Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm not sticking up for anything, I'm just trying to understand your logic.

So are tax evasion schemes legal in more or less percentage of cases?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Doesn't it say something though when a court case costing god knows what is needed to decide if tax is payable .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm not here to play games Russ if there's a point to this inane questioning just spit it out or I'll stick to my original assumption about your participation in this, oh and I really hope it's not over something really stupid and puerile like I've missed a word of a sentence somewhere.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:19 ----------

I said way back we should make them prove in court that such schemes are legal before their allowed to use them rather than the other way round.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Petulance will get you nowhere.

Tax avoidance is not illegal. The fact 20% have been found to be doing so legally should make this obvious to you.

Tax avoidance can be used illegally - but within itself is within the law.

Tax evasion, by the way is totally illegal.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What have the other 80% been found to be doing, you know the vast, vast majority using the aggressive schemes.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The 80% have been using tax avoidance scheme illegally. It really shouldn't be this difficult to explain.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And that's what I've been saying all along, that in a vast, vast number of cases it's proven that their acting illegally so the onus should now be on them to prove their acting legally before these schemes are used and it's their own fault, no where else in society would we put up with such an abused system, look at the vilification benefits claimants are getting from all quarters over a tiny percentage of illegality.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That's a bit of a sweeping statement Russ ,they are only illegal because a court says they are ,it could just as easily be the other way round .What should happen is that before a tax scheme is used maybe it should be assumed to be illegal until HMRC have approved it for use

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

This gives a reasonable explanation.

http://www.stanbridgeaccountants.co....99s-difference

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

This debate highlights exactly why our tax system is both a mess and a joke and it is long past time it was soted out because surely it is possible to do it if the government of whatever colour of the day could be bothered. Seems to me if you at the lower end pulling a scam you get the book thrown at you but if your at the higher end more often then not the book gets rewritten.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm assuming that this quote is from HMRC or some government official either way it makes absolutely no sense and goes someway to explaining why our tax system is such a mess

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The challenge HMRC have is that the people creating these aggressive schemes employ very clever and expensive lawyers and tax specialists, whose expertise HMRC often have difficulty matching.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I agree that's why they should not be used (classed as evasion if you like) until HMRC has shown them to be legal ,we should not be in a position where a scheme is used ,tax not paid and a costly court case is needed to decide if the scheme used is legal or not .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

One of the saddest things is people having to claim benefits whilst in work, that to me isn't right, the employers should pay a decent living wage.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Tax avoidance is legal - such as putting your money in an ISA instead of a savings account to save on tax on the interest income.

Tax evasion is illegal.

:)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No surprise here... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25886638

I'm sure this will be divisive, some will see it as the Tory reform is working, and some will see it as the total opposite.

You can also see that they want to help those that are sick back into work. Now I can't get my head around that. Not when you have forms to fill that is based on trick questions that is geared up to make you fail. The forever changing goalposts. Then there's atos on top which is also geared up to make the sick fail. So when they say they want to help, in what way are they really helping?

Then you'll read that 'millions' apparently have withdrawn their claims. Is that because they have something to hide? Maybe, but the amount of times I wanted to just give up just to be left alone, sod the impossible forms and all the stress that comes with it. I don't think it's that black and white.

The Mail is having a field day with the 'Benefit Street' program, with quotes of the sick playing slot machines like there's nothing wrong with them etc. All damning but the vilification is seemingly constant but it's working.

I have witnessed first hand to be called 'a cheat', why? Because I don't look ill or use aids such as a wheelchair. I would do my hardest not to appear sick to anyone I meet, that's being human and nothing else.

Yet for all those that think the reform is working or think it's easy to just fill in a form and claim everything, live the high life and laugh at people paying taxes then you're ignorant of the facts. The truth is that you're also condemning the genuine and making their lives a lot harder in the process.

I've also been accused of wanting the Gov to fail, just so I can bitch and moan about it. Things said like that are is just pathetic and ignorant. When it affects me in this way then bitching and moaning the last thing on my mind. I do wish for something different, just something that is fair and a whole lot more honest.

Being ill, sick, disabled etc the lines are now blurred enough to just group us as a 'benefit claimant' and nothing more and sh*t sticks.

And no I don't feel sorry for myself. I feel frustrated for those that don't have a clue.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I said this months and months ago. that it'll just be a cut in money by stating they're fit for work. and knowing full well that the prospect of them finding work is very low.

infact it'll be like you can carry on as you were. you don't have to come in and sign on. we'll probably do a formality check once a year, but not to worry if you don't hear from us. it was just about taking money off you by putting you down as fit for work.

we'll probably be hearing from a load of these kind of people stating exactly that. that they have just been abandoned. and just get given their reduced money with no questions asked.

the hard working people won't have a problem with them either now. they'll be told that they're ok now and to leave them alone. we've reduced their money substantially.

but I do think that they should give those that they have deemed as fit for work a card or something, that they can display to someone who's uncertain. so they can prove that they're fit for work and not to be bothered anymore.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I am waiting for those who think it is perfectly acceptable to ruin innocent peoples lives and make others totally miserable who really are in need for the sake of finding a few shirkers.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I hope I never have to claim... Never claimed but I am glad that if ever we found ourselves without a income there would be some sort of help for us by the way of benefits ... as this would maybe help a little while finding another job ...:D My first job was a YTS a whole £25.00 per week and still had to pay digs to my Mum and Dad a whole £10.00 LOL does anyone remember the YTS scheme in 1986 ... :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Long before my time.

but to be fair. you could by a single for 10p then :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I did 2 years YTS 1985 and 1986 £26.25 per week

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yep, I had the chance to either stay on and do A levels in 6th form for do a YTS with South Wales Police. I chose the latter and 5 good years working for them, getting a level 4 NVQ at the same time. It's a shame they no longer do YTS, I thought it was an excellent idea.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

8p and 10p if you wanted a match :LOL:

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:11 ----------

I to thought it was excellent idea as it got you in a working environment...;) and if you impressed the gaffer you got kept on like I did... :) so all was good worked since I was 16 because of the YTS ...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I did painting and decorating on a YTS... That was fun.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I became a stock controller through YTS. The money was crap but at least I gained a lot from it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My wife was a bank clerk on a YTS scheme and now is a bank manager, so some good came of it for her.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I went on a YOPs scheme in the early 80s, and now I am in IT senior management - these schemes made a difference.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm trying to do the maths.

16-18, 32 years ago, and you're 57.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I may have got the scheme name wrong, but in 1980 I attended the Control Data Institute Programming Technology course (Assembler, COBOL, and RPG2, and some basic Systems Analysis) - it was for 18-25 year olds looking to re-train, and was funded by whatever the JobCentre was called in those days.

Update - it came back to me; it was a TOPS (Training Opportunities Scheme) course.

I had just left the RAF, and there wasn't much call in Civvy Street for someone who could speak Russian, take morse at 45 wpm, and had a markman's badge... ;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Did you shoot anyone, put Russian to good use and use Morse code at 45wpm?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Whilst in the RAF, yes* - outside, not as often....

*shot at people - not sure if I hit them....

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Anyone shoot you back?

obviously they missed :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yes, I have been shot at (which was why I was shooting back).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You have my sympathy, my wife and I are not looking forward to the next few weeks. We have just received the letter asking for all the details of my son. He is aged 38 and has never worked due to being special needs. He cannot read or write, cross the road without help and needs help with personal hygiene. Fourteen tears of schooling was unable to teach him much, so how does the Government think that someone sitting in an office can now rule him "fit for work" from a letter's details.

More to the point, where are the jobs nowadays and the promised help for disabled that are ruled fit to work?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What makes me MAD is Sometimes the New Rules are bollocks I personally do not agree with ATOS doctors employed by the Government to make a decision for some illnesses as I know someone who has crohn's disease and they were took off ESA because of them and because of this decision they made her condition worse because of the stress they induced on them. They landed in hospital because of a flare up. This person needs B12 injection every 10 weeks because they had a bowel resection as her body cannot absorb B12 through food intake they also suffer increased vulnerability to infections...
They also have thinning and weakening of the bones (osteopenia and osteoporosis) this was because of long term use of steroids through this really horrid illness, she appealed and won but it was at the cost of her health as while in hospital they put her on a thing called the elemental diet to rest her bowel but it took 4 weeks in hospital before she was discharged through the stress all this had caused at the hands of the ATOS doctor and his decision. This doctor spent all but 30 minutes with them and assessed them fit for work... despite their specialist and own doctor disagreeing with him how he came up with that decision is really beyond me and something I will never understand. They appealed and won and the award given to them was indefinite they were also awarded DLA middle rate because of the attention they needed at night something they had thought they could not claim for as they had been told they would not get, without these benefits they would be snookered as they really are not fit to work...It really makes me so MAD that someone can take someone who really needs benefits off them, if she could work she would but unfortunately they could never hold down a job also this illness is through no fault of her own something she was born with so...what they need to realise is that some people who claim NEED THEM AND ARE NOT PLAYING ON THEIR ILLNESS THEY ARE ILL :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'd be very surprised if you have any problems although I know that the natural tendency is to dread such things. I am certain that your son will not be ruled fit to work and from what you've written nor should he be. Best of luck! :tu:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If your son gets took off his benefits go to your MP as this really would be disgusting, he is entitled to these benefits but I'm sure you will be fine try and not worry. My thoughts are with you and many like you it just does not seem fair the worry these people cause.;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

To be fair, they aren't too bothered by whatever the illness or disability you have. It's whether or not you can perform the simplest of tasks.

As I stated earlier the ESA50 form is designed to make people fail or to be called in to see an ATOS agent. This is why so many people win on appeal because that is when you are most likely to be represented by someone professional and they could/might include your medical history.

For those that haven't seen one of these forms, see here....

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...717/esa-50.pdf

With example questions such as 'Can you reach your top pocket' to 'Can you press a button' and 'Can you pick up a £1 coin'. So even those with severe illness should be able going by the examples set out feel like they have no choice other than state 'Yes' or 'No problems'.

The trouble is they are always changing the questions. For the like of Crohn's sufferers, they've now included an answer to the question of bowel control which is 'Yes – but only if I cannot reach a toilet quickly' - Quite bizarre as if you tick that, then you fail as for that question you will not qualify for the support group. All the questions are loaded, and it's designed so you don't have the space to write anything either.

What people get wrong is that they don't seek help in filling out this form, it looks easy enough doesn't it, quite short too, but it is apart from DLA the hardest form to fill in properly. Also the form somewhere states if you have any info from any doc, specialist, consultant etc etc to send with it the form, but you only get 8 weeks dead to fill it and send it back. Getting info isn't easy, asking for notes isn't easy, some times you might have to pay and some times the info just isn't good enough. But you have to do it! Ask you GP for a thorough medical letter outlining all your probs, medications, and get them to explain in the letter how it affects you. Get a copy of your medical notes, I paid £50 for my life history and shows all the info I need if and when I need it.

And to 'Weenie' I too suffer from severe Crohn's and take B12 jabs every 12 weeks, been on all the liquid diets, all the meds from preds to the bigs guns that are immuno suppressants (chemo drugs, anti rejection drugs), MTX, 6MP etc

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

[QUOTE=peanut;35666252]To be fair, they aren't too bothered by whatever the illness or disability you have. It's whether or not you can perform the simplest of tasks.

I hope you feel better soon, and they should be bothered as they are making some people's illnesses worse by the stress they cause

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Of course they should, it should be down to the GP, specialist or consultant to decide whether you're fit enough to work. Not a system that's designed to cut costs or a suit that has no knowledge of what the illness is and what it means. Just because some don't look ill doesn't mean they are not very ill.

My point is that there are people who think that the ill are being looking after, and that they do get what they need/deserve but that's always not the case - far from it. They said a million have been found fit enough to work, yet I'd like to know just how many failed just on the basis that the tests are just badly designed so how many people are suffering.

As for the stress they cause, well I don't think they are too bothered by that. The truth is even though you are ill, sick or whatever and you do managed to 'win' a claim, the stress (though fear is a better word) never goes away because the next time you fill in the form you just might not quality. EDITED (The max allowance 'normally' for ESA is 3 years, the majority has to redo the form on a yearly basis - though just been told that some do get awarded with no set period which is new info for me so :tu: ).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

@ Solitaire - please keep us informed of what actually happens. I'm sure we're all interested in the outcome. Best of luck.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Maybe I was mistaken about the ESA. I know it she was awarded a indefinite award for the DLA for the attention she needs at night I thought because she was awarded this for DLA it would be applied to her ESA as this would make sense if they declared it for ESA if you get what I mean ... :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Actually I can't find any info on an indefinite award for ESA, 3 years seems to be the maximum (or indefinite if you keep on qualifying for the support group).

As for DLA being indefinite, well that's all about to change. In 2015 PIP is going to be introduced and if you think it's bad now, it's going to get a whole lot worse.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

:shrug: I just do not understand why???

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My ESA is / was 18months (due for review in November) I'm already getting my crap together for it ;)

As you say My first PIP review is coming 2015 and judging from what's coming out of the RNIB I doubt it will go well.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Because the sick etc are an easy target for the cuts. That's all it is. People fall for the negativity surrounding benefit claimants and the sick gets grouped with the frauds and all the other benefits, enough to make it look like something needs to be done. So to those that believe what they read or hear it's become a popular choice to kick the sick back into work as we're all on the fiddle.

Ok a little bit cynical there but you get the gist.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

:clap: well said ... :D

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well here's hoping..... (for the better). Though will believe it when I see it.

Atos may lose fit-for-work tests contract as ministers line up rival firms

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...tests-contract

I don't think it'll get any better whilst IDS is still being protected.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Having just watched the last episode of Benefit Street and the debate that followed I think the subject is by far too wide to be able to be discussed evenly. The amount of benefits there are all come with different problems, from the jobless (JSA, Income support), those that will not work, the sick (ESA, WRAG, Support group), disabled (PIP DLA), pensioners, housing benefit, Bedroom Tax, child support, working tax credits, I'm sure there's a lot I've missed out. Each comes with their own problems and can't be discussed as a whole.

The debate itself was interesting (but a bit pointless) and I gained nothing from it again, (The C5 one was utterly useless). But I do hope some good comes from it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That one last night was a bit more focussed on the bigger problem. such as people in work claiming benefits.
it can be the case that somebody working is receiving more benefits than a benefit scrounger.

you have to ask at the start of these debates whether it's hate towards people not working. or the actual cost.

if it's the cost. then focus on the unpaid taxes from the rich. the winter fuel payments to the rich. there's many places where there's millions, if not billions of pounds to be had in an instant.

but we're stuck either arguing about **** not working. or **** costing us what is a few pence compared to the bigger problem that we ignore.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I recorded this to watch later on I am hoping that at least there will be a debate and not just s slanging match like the ch5 one.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My opinion would be a taxpayer doesn't like to see someone who's on the dole having more than them.

There's been too much bad press now, but now I do hope some people get the right info to see that it's not always black and white, that their ideas of someone on benefits isn't just job / workshy related. And life isn't a bed of roses on benefits.

I do understand how taxpayers feel, they are paying for the likes of me, I wouldn't like the idea of someone having a cushy life if I had to work and end up with less, but that's the kind of message that seems to be coming across.

Dave's message of making work pay is correct, but as you say it's aimed at everyone, the sick included and those that will never find a job.

I like the comment saying that it's ok (nothing get said nor done) for the bankers and the big corporates to spend all the taxpayers cash but not ok to go on benefits.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I hope I'm right by saying that the public opinion doesn't seem as bad as what the media is making out when it comes to attitude towards claimants.

Oh and that White Dee really gives people with depression a bad name (IMO).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Peanut the people who get to me are the one's who work and claim, everyone else I'm fine with as they need it IMO ... and these are the people who give benefit claimants a bad name as many people are brain dead and believe the media hype ... when they print stories about these cheats they assume all claimants must be the same ... sadly ;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not " having" as that is different.

But someone not working and on benefits should not receive more money than somebody who does work, and whose taxes are paying for the others. That is immoral.

There are bound to be certain individual cases, of course, but as a general rule, I think it is good one.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

You will always get the ***** head cheats and the ones who take benefits for the hell of it or do it as a way of life, must clamp down on these **** bags.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Welfare is to prevent hunger. so why are foodbanks rapidly increasing?

Thanks.

Another nail in Dave's coffin.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

They're giving away FREE stuff, what do you think is going to happen.

They are opening up in NEW areas, therefore it is NO indication of the level of demand in an area, whether past, present or future. Decades ago, if a supermarket opened in a new area and people stated using it, doesn't mean there wasn't demand for the supermarket before then.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That's the whole point. FREE stuff.
you have to be referred to one.
we shouldn't need them in 21st century Britain. one of the 'richest' countries in the world.

under the rule of GOD himself.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And what evidence is required to be referred to one? There was a documentary type program where an alcoholic splurged all his cash, including the extra DLA he received on booze. His Alcohol support worker(ie makes sure he can remain an alcoholic) arranged a referral. He was able enough to be teetotal for 2 weeks, therefore saving money.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Ok. you win. they're poor, they're faking.

problem averted.

Dave, thank nomad :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

:rofl: :D

The majority of the 13 million people classed as living in poverty in the UK are in work, a charity's report suggests.
People do not ask for this, I mean careers officer asks a pupil what do you want when you leave school. Pupil to leave school replies get a rubbish job or benefits and live in poverty, sounds aright to me...living on benefits/low wage and living in poverty is not a choice done by the majority...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25287068

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If they're poor it is likely to be because they are spending the money elsewhere. If you opened a food bank up in 2009 or before, the only thing that might mean that the demand wasn't the same as it would be today, is because fewer categories of people could refer you. If those extra categories of people had been available in 2009, the demand for that food bank would have been the SAME.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well if the workers are hungry. then the poor have no chance :)

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:37 ----------

Bedroom Tax, most probably.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The definition of poverty is a meaningless one. Eg take the theoretical situation where prices double overnight, the number of people defined as being in poverty would stay the same. If people's income doubled overnight, again the number "in poverty" would still be the same.

The "bedroom tax" started less than a year ago.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Which coincidentally coincides with the rise in food banks.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It trebled in the 2 years from 2007/08 - 2009/10. 13,849 to 40,898.

The figures for 2013/14 aren't listed yet, because apart from anything else the year end(I'm assuming march) hasn't taken place yet.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Well I think we can both assume that when the figures for 2013/14 are released. they will have no doubt trebled again.
infact it's obvious that they have.

unless you're saying that there's always been poverty. and in making that point cancels something out. then you're unfortunately wrong.

it's a bit like after 49 years being in government. the Conservatives blaming the previous government for everything that's going wrong under themselves.

my sister has been split up with her husband nearly 7 years now. and he still insists that everything to do with his life is her fault. I can't afford the mortgage. it's her fault for leaving. I can't go to work because I can't bare her being seen picking the kids up from school. I can't get her to sign all the house over to me. after all. she was the one who left. I haven't done nothing wrong :)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...ction-benefits

I get this with the dwp / job centre all the time, I'm lucky as I have natalie to read my post but they should sort it out! I've had one or two accessible letters inmy time with them but it's hard work getting them.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Sanctions save money.
Sanctions punish the poor.
Sanctions cause hardship.
Sanctions are the norm.

When sanctioned, you are taken off the unemployment head count. ie: you're to believe they've found a job.
you can see why it's encouraged to hand out sanctions all day long. can't you.

So when you hear on the news that unemployment figures have gone down.
just remember that what it most likely is, is that they have stopped thousands more of peoples money by way of sanctions.
and that a percentage of these people will turn to crime to get money that has been took from them.

So logically crime is increasing, and will increase constantly. and the sacrifice is to save money.
a percentage of the crimes taking place will be costing you money.

https://www.scriptonitedaily.com/201...yment-figures/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Exactly right, they have no chance at all, people running the food banks have noticed a rise in people's needs since the bedroom tax, and the benefits cuts by ATOS declaring people fit for work when in many cases they clearly are not... :( What a system we have when parents skip meals so their children don’t go hungry, something needs to be done as in this day and age this should not be happening, I personally think this is a disgrace for this to be happening in 2014 in the UK ...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

My sister works as a catering assistant (glorified dinner lady)
and she sees kids who have been sent to school with nothing to eat.
kids who are refused dinner because their parents haven't paid.

she gives them food to eat. when she first done it she was told off. but she said she's not going to see a child go hungry. and especially when the food gets thrown away or is taken home by the other assistants. including herself. so she does it regardless.

and the best thing is that a lot of these kids parents have money.
obviously it goes on where the parents don't have money too.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Thank God for kind hearted people like your sister, I know my son has forgotten/lost his dinner money and the dinner ladies just feed him and send a slip in his bag to let me know what has happened, I know they no longer give extra's at my son's school as he looked at me quite shocked when asked him if he ever went up for extra's, he had no idea what I was talking about. I explained to him I used to up for extra's as when I was at primary school in the 70s the dinner ladies always gave out the food that was left so no waste...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

ATOS are trying to get out of their contract early http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...m-atos-3168142

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Good riddance to bad rubbish ... :D

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That's is excellent news, but nothing will change unless they change the tests and examination procedures. Until they give the power to the GP, Consultants etc the ones that are qualified to give a fair judgment then nothing will change even as and when the next company gets the contract.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Aren't they the worst people to have that kind of power ? .If i had listened to my specialist last year i would still be on the sick instead of earning a good living

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It depends. Take for example Crohn's disease, it is different for everyone but if you read the guidelines set for the DWP they don't have a clue, it makes it out like nothing more than a mild tummy upset. What chance do certain illness have when it's like that. My GP and consultant know the extent of my illnesses and what it also entails, I'm sure they would and I would welcome them to be able to decide on my behalf.

If it was for a bad back and solely based on a GP's say so then I'd agree with you.

Also what has being able to pick up a coin, or reach your top pocket got to do with Crohn's disease? On the surface most wouldn't even 'look' ill, it's all wrong.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

In terms of longterm recognised problems no they are exactly who should have the say and the one's I deal with have a relatively quick turnaround I'd have been discharged by now but as my condition is progressive I'm kept on bi yearly appointments with priority if anything gets worse. At least my specialist knows about my condition although I did get a medical doctor at my assessment half the time was taken up by me explaining to her what the condition was. I was lucky to get that doctor a month later she was gone .

I cannot defend or agree with people making death threats against atos employee's that's never acceptable under any circumstances. Problem is we will get rid of atos but the problem will stay the same with whoever takes over as long as the DWP deny setting targets but making these assessment company's abide by targets the problem will never go away.

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I quote a Tracy Roberts.

Now you're going to say "I don't mean them kind of people"

But you do.
so does Atos.
so does Dave.

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[QUOTE=peanut;35674487]It depends. Take for example Crohn's disease, it is different for everyone but if you read the guidelines set for the DWP they don't have a clue, it makes it out like nothing more than a mild tummy upset. What chance do certain illness have when it's like that.

Sadly very little Peanut, and that is why with complicated illnesses like Crohn's it should go on your specialists/doctor's advice notes as it is them who deal with you and as you know all to well crohns is an illness that cannot be faked as you go through to many tests mri scans,scopes etc Crohns is a very complicated illness that not only affects the bowel, it can lead to inflamation of the joints,eye problems and many other nasties that crohns's patients have to cope with on a daily basis CROHNS is one nasty illness and for many remission from Crohns does not last long, unfortunately there is no cure for Crohns but hopefully one day there will be sooner rather than later ...

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All that happens on here, is that people quote the extremes to try and prove a point.

Nobody, in their right mind would say anyone in wheelchair does not need assistance, but it assessing that need.

There may be people out there in wheelchairs that earn a good salary.

Just because you're disabled does not exclude you from having career or earning a good living, to think that is actually quite patronising.

You might have someone in a wheel chair quite capable, able, willing and eager to work. That doesn't need any benefit or aid.

Or you may have someone with all limbs intact, that has arthritis, and has good days and bad days. Sometimes can get around, sometimes can't get out the house.

None, of the above doesn't mean that trying to ascertain the need out there and only pay for those that require it, is some kind of evil thing.

Get real, if you think you qualify to receive benefit, for any reason, Then expect to be assessed as to whether you need it.

Now stop whinging.

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I totally agree. I'd easily give up both legs and be in a wheelchair compared to the way I am now (Yes seriously). As long as it's pain free I'd be able to live around it.

But that's not the point though is it. People don't understand the differences between being disabled and being ill/sick though you can easily be both obviously.

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And good luck. you'll need it.

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This ^^

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Pierre you seem to think were asking to just be handed cash with no questions like a lot of the public seem to also think. You highlight well the misinterpretation many have because not a single genuine claimant has a problem with a properly conducted assessment by a trained medical professional. Were not getting that with atos they have their own training scheme that takes medical secretary's as well as many others not qualified and gives them the power to make a decision beyond their ability that has a lasting and damaging affect on people.

We would also like the DWP to stop lying about imposing targets when they do and atos has been caught on camera more then once insisting they have targets they must meet.

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To right Gary
As I have stated before I know someone who was assessed and their crohns really flared up because of the stress they induced on them. They landed in hospital because of a flare up. This person needs B12 injection every 10 weeks because they had a bowel resection as her body cannot absorb B12 through food intake they also suffer increased vulnerability to infections...
They also have thinning and weakening of the bones (osteopenia and osteoporosis) this was because of long term use of steroids through this really horrid illness, she appealed and won but it was at the cost of her health as while in hospital they put her on a thing called the elemental diet to rest her bowel but it took 4 weeks in hospital before she was discharged through the stress all this had caused at the hands of the ATOS doctor and his decision. This doctor spent all but 30 minutes with them and assessed them fit for work... despite their specialist and own doctor disagreeing with him how he came up with that decision is really beyond me and something I will never understand.

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Not at all. But some on here, and the quoted bit by Gary is a prime example, are using extreme examples to demonise the need to means test for these benefits


I am in a complete agreement, the testing, assessing, has to be undertaken by competent qualified people.

if this isn't the case, trust me, I'd march alongside you.

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The problems arise when a decision is made that the client disagrees with .How many times has a doctors competency been called into question when a patient disagrees with a diagnosis .I don't think it would make any difference who did the assessments ,if the patient disagrees with it they will be rubbish and incompetent ,if the patient gets their own way then all will be well

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So Marty you think someone with terminal cancer couple of months left to live is fit for work because atos have how about an elderly woman riddled with arthritis who refused to climb a set of stairs having her benefit cut because atos labelled her "uncooperative" and there are many more examples feel free to Google. Pierre most assessors at atos are not doctors never have been some only have whatever medical experience the atos training program gives them which is very little as the training program is more concerned about filling In the forms correctly dispatches showed that.

As it is now the work capability assessment is not fit for purpose and it hasn't been for quite sometime not only my opinion but also the opinion of the guy who helped originally create it. Also why shouldn't extreme examples be used by the claimant side the government and media do it all the time to "highlight" the need for reform so what's good for them and all that.

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Yes of course i do because that's exactly what i said :rolleyes:

One extreme example you missed was the 49 yr old ,riddled with Arthritis ,having to take gob fulls of tablets ,blood monitoring every 2 weeks and steroid injections ,he was told he would be on the sick for the foreseeable future ,would not be able to drive for a living and certainly not be able to work fitting windows ,he was told all this last year by his specialist and is now fitting between 9 and 12 windows a day.My point is that just because you read of someone getting told by ATOS that they can work doesn't always mean they are wrong

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Unfortunately in some cases the ATOS are not only disagreeing with the patient they are also disagreeing with the patients own doctor and specialist ...

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Who can also be extremely biased because it's their job

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Bias is rampant throughout the whole welfare debate on both sides which is why a longterm workable solution is not possible and a person with two months to live being taken off benefit is OK in the eyes of some says a lot in itself.

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same thing but about ATOS cuz its their jobs and their targets

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

Exactly ATOS are government puppets and as I have said many times before the sick and the poor are being targeted to appease the tax payer.

For some those who are suffering are collateral damage for others they are human beings whose lives are being ruined. I know which side I am comfortable being on

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---------- Post added at 22:07 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

[/COLOR]True ...

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While a very high percentage of appeals are finding against ATOS I think that proves in a lot of cases they are indeed wrong.

Each and ever time an appeal goes against ATOS its a potential life in ruins I am not happy or comfortable with that and I do not like those who are in the slightest

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GPs and Consultants operate on the basis of believing the patient, on the basis the patient has no reason to lie to them. Bringing in the issue if benefits clouds the issues as there is now a possible incentive to lie.

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the liar who blags their doctor is better equipped to blag and get through the ATOS medical than the honest patient who needs the help

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What about those who are swinging the lead or just plain faking an illness because it's easier than working ,they've managed to fool their gp and the specialist