Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

I just used 95% as an example, it could just as easy be 99.5% as I don't work for NTL and don't know the figures. There is no logical reasoning that would suggest that heavy users are early adaptors or long standing customers. I would think it more likely that heavy users are quite new customers who haven't got tired of trying to download the entire internet yet.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

I`m an early adopter of new tech. A large number of my friends are early adopters of new tech. I can assure you that the people I know who came to the internet later are the lower users of bandwidth. I've been using it for 13 years now and my consumption of internet resources is simply expanding as I'm able to get more and more from the net.

Give me 56k dialup and I'll download less because the speed restrictions are too painful to wait out. As bandwidth increases so will consumption. People go for the fastest tier not because they want to save time but because they want to do more. Increasing bandwidth but then imposing caps is simply short-sighted as it doesn`t take into account why people want more bandwidth.

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Heh excellent points made. What I agree with.

Back in broadband early days in the 1990's the early adopters will have been the ones paying £40+ for broadband and are the likely the power users now who NTL are trying to get rid off. I am getting quite sick of some comments made to try and justify these caps, the only 2 options that are good value for money are the 300kbit 30gig cap and the £24.99 2mbit 30 gig cap, the 1mbit 3 gig cap and 3mbit 30 gig cap are both huge profit makers.

Now to be honest :-

I dont care if someone pays the same price as me and downloads 5x as much.
I dont care if someone pays the same price as me and shares it with a whole household of people.
I dont care what others download.
I dont care if you spend £37.99 to surf the net and send emails and expect everyone else to do the same.

Some FACTS.
All the family that lives in my area incidently are NTL customers, and guess what they all unhappy, the first lot arent happy because no boardband in their area, the second lot unhappy because no digital tv and had a lot of billing errors, I am unhappy because of india call centre's caps etc. Another family member is unhappy because he cant have sky sports news and premiership plus (no digital in area) This is not made up I know no happy NTL customers sorry to dissapoint.

More facts, if it was cheaper to rent someone's network then use your own then why would BT build their own network and rent it out to isp's, what kind of suggestion is that, the evidence is clear, easynet have their own network, they dont rely on BT wholesale, and their package portfolio proves it, you can all claim they not making a profit but I am willing to bet they are making a profit. NTL are making a 50% operating profit as stated in another thread which is no surprise since they own their own network and use transperent proxies and have a cap, this 50% is about to increase when these new tiers come into force.

What baffles me is NTL staff on here claim that customers are not thick/stupid whatever word you want to use yet carry on trying to sell a 3mbit tier as a surfing package and not as a downloading volumes of data package which is what its really suitable for. You can send your emails over a 3mbit connection but it wont make jack difference to a 512kbit connection. The only difference is you paying an extra £20 a month.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

You must be right then. :) I'll forget all that I learned being involved in consultancy work for a certain consumer body. The socio economic class findings must have been so far from the mark. :shrug:
__________________

Chrysalis, have you bothered to check company balance sheets?

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

I dont try to sell anything i am an Engineer. Again get your facts right and stop saying things you cannot prove. Its not the first time you have comeout with a wild and untrue statment like that. Prove to me that i having been selling 3meg as a surfing package to users on this site or anywhere else. If you cannot then correct you statement :mad:.

See the bottom part of my sig for other wild statments proved to be untrue :)

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As a 300k user I agree with chrysalis. I cannot see myself taking up the 1M option with a 3GB cap. I am a patient sort and I will stick on 300k.

Most of what I do can be done fairly well with 300k. As for downloading large files (Mainly Linux ISOs in my case). I will just have to leave the downloads running overnight and all day till they finish as I do now.

I would rather they had raised the speed to say double and kept the same 30 GB cap. 3 GB is too small a cap.

One would have thought that if NTL wishes to be competetive then they would keep an incentive in there for those of us who are not speed merchants. If an ADSL provider comes up with an improved offer (as I am sure they will) people like me will probably be tempted to move.

Finally for those staying on 300k with 30GB cap, will NTL reduce their charges? I have not seen such an indication, so I assume not. This will in the end be a further disincentive to stay if a better option were to come from the ADSL camp.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

The Question i have is that if the powers that be, those who set these cap limits forsaw the customers view on this, and set a realistic cap:-

I.e.

1Mbit 30 gig a month
2Mbit 40 gig a month
3Mbit 60 gig a month (1gig a day is appauling for a 3mb service)



Then no one would be that bothered, i guess all the problems are that the cap levels are unrealistic, competition with other service providers on both costs and cap levels are more competitive.

I understand the reasons for the cap both on business and network, what i cant figure out is why they chose those levels.

If im paying for the top level account 3mb damn right im gonna use it, and not on a GB a day, if i want to max it for a couple of days then tale off then i could, not with these caps tho.

Again Ntl totally unrealistic.

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I am rather tired of reading on here that ntl customers must be thick or stupid. I can assure you that the ones I speak to are not. Even those who have not been on the internet much have a fair idea of what I mean if I mention a 'download limit'. I've never once come across anyone who failed to understand what I was talking about.

I also worked for all of last year in the department that handles disconnection requests. Want to know how many requests we had to disconnect because of the cap? None. That's right, not a single one in 12 months. And that covers the entire former NW business unit.

So please, no more of these quasi-experts telling me what customers want and what they don't want. I happen to KNOW because I am at the sharp end dealing with it all the time.

Incidentally, I am also regularly pleased to see how honest the sales people are in explaining caps. By the time I need to speak to the customer and I point the cap out, they invariably tell me the salesman told them already.

This is the reality, not the invented fiction.

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Are CS telling people that there is a download limit or a limit on usage? Reason I ask is if there is going to be a "download" limit then one would assume upload data doesnt count towards your usage total.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

Individuals use their preferred terminology. I tend to use download limit as that covers it reasonably well, others use data transfer limit. Useage limit could imply that there is a time restriction, so none of them is perfect. Data transfer limit is probably closest and least geek-sounding. Perhaps I'll use that in future.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

I was kinda hoping that the upload wouldn't be counted, I work with digital photographs and I upload sometimes hundreds in a day to our servers, we are talking 2MB + each too, I guess ill have to put up or shut up, just hope that when they start enforcing the limits they will offer me something, NTL is my only option so I have to pay whatever they ask. I hope that after years of faithful service across all their services they don't just kick me off for using 50GB+ a month. *sigh*

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Not completely true, although many people hate AOL they do also offer a service over NTL's cable network that is uncapped and currently quicker than NTL's current service at 1Mbit for £25 unfortunately they won't be increasing their speeds when NTL does but AOL is unlikely to ever put any caps on their connections. If people really hate NTL or if NTL heavily enforces these caps people always have the option of going to AOL. It's what i plan to do if NTL heavily enforce their caps.

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Anyone who considers AOL a serious ISP must be bonkers.

You don't get access to the internet, you get access to the AOLternet.

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Agreed, but a worthy last-resort and a nice way to kick NTL in the teeth by using their connection but without paying them directly (so therefore paying them much less) but having a unlimited bandwidth connection :)

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No real argument though as you're using a residential connection for work.

You need the business broadband deal.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

Do you honestly think they'd care?

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

A business deal? I wish I had a business, I'm a photography student mate.

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I wonder how many of the people who voted yes, would really be bothered to go to all the effort of moving when it actually came to it, I'd be surprised if it was over 50% - most people are really lazy when it comes down to it - Gas & Electricity are prime examples - all you have to do to get cheaper prices is "move" to a different supplier, but still millions of people don't - they just can't be bothered. This will be just the same - people will say "yes, I'll move" - but when it comes to action - they won't.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

On that note... anyone got any idea how much a 4mb DIA-Plus connection would set me back?
http://business.ntl.com/product_solu...cess/index.php

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

Yes, they are contactable on 0800 052 9900 and will give you a price after discussing your requirements and possibly doing a site survey. ;)

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This seems like an ideal option for those needing to shift large amounts of data. Do you have any idea if you actually NEED a business?? Or can I just get it at home anyway as long as I pay for the service?

Also does anyone know a Rough price for say 2MB or 3MB? I do not really want to go through all the hassle of ringing them etc... Just to find it is £300p/m or something stupid..... :D

If it is not a stupid price it may well be a viable option for those who are cap moaning (myself included) ;)

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If you are thinking that you can get such a service at a price not far removed from residential tariffs then forget it. If you rang them you WOULD find that the rpice would be in your "stupid" category.

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I remember discussing leased line options with a nice chap from clara.net once. This was at a time when BT broadband wasn't available in city suburbs. We were looking for backhaul for our own community ISP.

He checked I was sitting down before telling me the prices :Yikes:

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

What do you mean by this? You don't have full access to the web with AOL? Do they block stuff?

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So far i know of, me, and about 6 others at this present moment. Which wont make NTL break into a sweat. Thats just immediate friends i know, and they have all taken phone and TV elsewhere too. The real shame being ,its the thought of having a cap, whether you exceed it or not that seems to alienate people more.But its more likely the people who have no idea what a cap is who wont bother moving.
Not one of them has left because they were unhappy with the service in any other way. ;)

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4Mbit DIA Plus will set you back 4 figures a month I'm afraid...

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

Lol, imagine the 45mb DIA line.......i dred to think the cost per month for that:Yikes:

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NTL and any ISP's must take notice if alot of customers demand something new or to change. If NTL was to notice a massive decline in their users but a massive increase in their AOL users they would have to compare their products and reliase what they're doing wrong. Because NTL has leased out their lines to AOL they've in many ways removed their monopoly over NTL customers, something i'm sure other companies wouldn't have been as stupid to do.

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If you knew the facts of the AOL deal you wouldn't say that.

Remember, they don't have to do the marketing, support or billing for it. It's a great deal for ntl. Far from them being stupid, the only stupid thing is that they haven't yet got more reseller deals. There's big money to be had there.

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I know they will make alot of money via AOL, but i bet they make more money through their own service.

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Not so actually.

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there is a article that i read today about how microsoft wish to explore the possibility on how to stop piracy on xbox2. They want to investigate the possibility of starter discs at low prices upon if you like it you then download the next level/levels and pay for it that way to cut out/limit piracy.

The thing is with BB caping this makes the whole thing pointless, or forcing you to go on highest tiers and still possible for you to go over limiting you on what ypou can do. NTL should be showing the way forward instead of throttling the internet. What with new idea's comming out and per per view movie downloads - of which none we can do due to these poxy limits and not having any choice to go elsewhere!

Blair say everyone should have BB, BB revolution and all that Cr@p - thing is he forgot to say you can onl use it X hours a day before you get switch off of limited.

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Yeah I read recently that the Half Life 2 style of delivery (a 4GB download) will become more and more the norm for delivering content such as DVDs on demand and games. The whole thing kind of feels like 1 step forward and 2 steps back, all this new wealth of content is coming that wasn't there before, but now we face new limitations. I did some reasearch on ISP's which offer extra GB's of bandiwdth to be purchased and some actually charge £1.50+ per GB! thats one hell of a premium when you think that I pay $6 (£3) a month for 250GB of bandwidth on a hosting package I use. Oh well give me an option NTL please - 50GB! I will pay I promise!

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at least ntl should do 1 tier unlimited even if it costs more - say 4meg unlimited £49.99 a month, why they hell they got 2 meg and 3 meg at 30gig cap now after lowering the 3meg 40gig cap to 30gig is just a joke.

who's goona pay extra to reach the same limit quicker?

I know when it comes into effect i'm going from 1.5meg to 3meg upon which i'll downgrade to 2 meg and save myself £10 a month or whatever it is and still be faster than what i was on. Seems like another stupid error on NTLs part.

if i was pricing tiers this is what i would come up with:

1meg=£1 7.99 - 10gig cap
2meg=£2 8.00 - 30gig cap
3meg=£3 9.99 - 60gig cap
4meg=£4 9.99 - unlimited

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

NTL are probably thinking that despite massive increases in speed, people will not want to download more, they will just be happy with the same amount of data delivered faster. Yeah right.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

ntl are probably thinking 'we have the best part of 2 million customers, and the marginal few leechers that we would like to dispense with are starting to get a bit windy & posting a lot, recently'

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Amazing but in most cases true.

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NTL, Thinking .... now theres a thought ;)

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The way i see it ntl just want to be ahead of BT, and with bt getting rubbisher and rubbisher, the future is only bleak for ntl :(

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I would dispute that BT is getting worse, they are in fact getting better.
__________________

No, no, no, no, no.

People need to get the idea out of their heads that ntl even give a monkeys what goes on on websites such as this.

It's easy to get the idea that you're dictating policy, but you aren't. I can assure you, as I've said many times before, that what a couple of hundred people say on a website does NOT influence policy decisions for over a million broadband customers.

Please, let's all bring some reality into the situation.

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Here! Here!

Reps given :angel:

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I'm actually tempted to get multiple business 1.5mb links put in and use some sort of bonding router. Same bandwidth, lower price. Would have been happy to spend about 3k a year on the DIA... not 13k! :Yikes:

* Edit - I'm aware that there are obvious other advantages to the DIA like 1:1 contention, PROPER support and 1:1 up / down speed ratio. *

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If you look at http://www.adslguide.org.uk/ there are a couple of articles for new services. A SDSL service from Fluidata and an unmetered service from BISCit. Why not try them if NTL caps are a problem?

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

...or you could use one of the many non-crippled, non-metered, competatively priced ISPs.

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At some places you can't get SKY and it's cheaper to have phone+digital through NTL than digital through NTL then phone through BT...

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Friend of mine is getting bonded ADSL from nildram.

2x 2mbit making 4096/512 for about £90 a month unmetered.

The future of NTL is budget internet, rest have to go elsewhere.

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Each and to their own. NTL isn't 'budget' internet, thats just overpriced.

Remind me how much bulldog or even telewest offer for even then, an overpriced 4mbit service?

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Heh, I'll remember that one when I have 8128/768 for much less in a couple of months from a UK company :)

Seriously that's quite concerning that someone's willing to pay that amount for an internet connection that slow but not the first person I know who's paying that amount for bonding, and purely for personal use assuming that's the case.

BTW It's £100 a month, £45 for each connection and £10 for the bonding. That doesn't reflect at all on ntl, most people really aren't going to want to pay even 1/4th that amount for their home connection.

NB That's not my opinion, HSI's mass market price point is around the £25 per month mark and most connections in the UK are at this price or below.

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2mb for £25/month with a 30gb cap will do me nicely :tu:

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

just wondering will the 30gb cap include uploading and downloading or just downloading. because if its downloading then i think i'd be just about maybe able to cope :)

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It's download only I believe

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well if it is then im happy

quick reply btw...:)

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

Same here. And for most* people who want that little bit more than an entry level package.




* most = 90% of customers who only use 10% of network resources :angel:

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2MB 30GB cap £25.





If itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s 30GB over the month no holds barr and I could download 2-3Gb in one day if I wanted to then itââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s a great price is it not. I donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t download a lot but I would like the option if once or twice I wanted too.



For £7 more than the 1MB I get a speed quicker than I could ever need.

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ignition care to name this company? and is it london only.

thanks.

My friend lives in a preety much unpopulated area and only is getting adsl enabled in march, he has a very high need for traffic, he set out his plans to nildram from that start and told them he would be using 100s of gigs a month and this was the reccomended package for him.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

He has no ADSL now but has a very high 'need' for traffic :scratch: sexual frustration? :p:

Check my profile the company is named there. Part of BT's April MaxDSL trials.

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All I ever see when I read these threads are people moaning about the caps and those that seem to defend them.


I to be honest am a Heavy user and can on some days download in excess of 10GB so a 1GB a day cap will obviousley hit someone like me very hard.
Of course I do not download this amount every single day but on more than a few occasions in a month I break the 10GB a day barrier. The point here is that although I don't do it all the time it is nice to be able to if I want to.

How impossible is it for NTL to cater for the Heavy user aswell as the "Average" user??


I also read alot of posts saying that "Oh every I.S.P is going to go hard capping soon"
This is a total load of rubbish. there will always be I.S.P's out there who cater for the heavy user and eventually they wil be the ones who get the customers. All it takes is for people to actually find out what is available on the internet and how to use the internet properly.
Some people may be surprised to hear that the internet comprises of a whole lot more than millions of forums and web pages...

What is going to happen when game delivery such as steam becomes common. I know most games from valve will be delivered via this service in the future. NTL users will simply not be able to use it. Half Life 2 comes in at over 4GB, with NTL that would take 4 days or more to download.....Why should we dip out?
What will happen when video rental via download becomes mainstream? Again NTL users will not be able to take part. There are a couple of these sites already popping up in the states and they are proving pretty popular.

It just seems that the whole future of broadband is about to take off but there is no suitable package available to NTL users to be able to appreciate them. The PC will very soon become the main peice of Home Entertainment kit and will be responsible for movies, music etc.. All streamed from the net.
In fact in my lates Custom PC magazine Hitachi has developed a TV with Braodband connection and a 160GB hard disc to accomadate this forth coming revolution. At the moment it is only available in japan but hopefully we will see things like this soon to. For reasons like this I believe that NOT all I.S.P's are going to go hard capped and MANY will cater for the heavy user becuase the "HEAVY" user will simply be part of a not to distant future. Sadly that future user may not be with NTL??

Just to make this post a little longer I just want to go back to the 100MBIT service that was talked about a while ago. Was the DIRECTOR of NTL not talking about video streaming and movie downloads etc... And that there was need for a 100MB line in the "Not to distant Future".........And then they go and cap their current flagship product at 1GB per day?? Hardly "Future" thinking now is it?

Other I.S.P's seem to offer such a higher cap compared with NTL and I fail to see why they cannot match them? Pkusnet currently limit their flagship product to 75GB per month. 1-8AM does NOT count towards this giving a potential of 275GB per month download...NTL?? 30GB p/m (or 1GB a day)

Ukonline?? 500GB per month...NTL?? 30GB per month (1GB per day)

I find it quite fascinating that the difference between the caps is so huge. Over 200GB more on the smallest one. Forget BT etc.. as they are crap and are just after money.

Why can NTL not cater for people like myself who want the bandwidth? What will happen in the future when people actually USE the internet? Surely NTL will have to change their packages? Hopefully they will not leave it to late becuase Broadband is picking up very quicly and only those that look to what the future holds will still be standing. :p:

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I couldn't agree more Earwig. Lets not forget NTL's adverts encouraging us to wear out our modems (or at least see if it was possible). Also look at the "Broadband Plus" (http://www.ntlworld.com/broadbandplu...adbandpluscust) offering from NTL which is full of bandwidth hungry things to do on the internet.

I could go on, and on but it's just not worth the effort. I think you said it all, but no doubt you'll get the usual suspects calling you a pirate **** and accusing you of making the service worse for everyone else.

p.s. To all of the "normal" users. Be thankful us superusers are around. Without us pushing for faster and better services since the start, the likelyhood is that you'd all still be on pay-per minute dial-up connections.

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10GB in one day? What are you doing to go through that amount of data transfer?
Now you know you don't really want to encourage members of the forum to read your post and think of an inteligent, well thought out response do you? ;)

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Push for unmetered dialup was from the Campaign for Unmetered Telecomms, a focus group, they along with some industry managed to get FRIACO out of BT.

If you weren't around now we'd all probably be on much faster and cheaper connections as the average bandwidth usage would be lower. Broadband was kickstarted by limited P2P usage and is now held back by excessive usage, 60+% of internet traffic is P2P now.

'Superusers' are the thing that forces contention down and prices up on the wholesale level on ADSL and to cablecos in terms of hardware and bandwidth provisioning.

Not going to thank 100+GB users for anything thanks, I helped kickstart it all downloading a GB a month from Napster ta. The wholesale abuse of P2P etc by 'Superusers' has just made life harder for light users of it - notice the law suits going out in US to small P2P users, and as the Plus.net example shows are forcing ISPs hands in order to keep their prices half decent.

I'd love it to be different but at the moment pricing, etc, is built on low contention models where bandwidth is scarce. If it weren't for the 'Superusers' using 10s of times more bandwidth than Joe 'Average' whose 'average' is skewed massively by these bods we'd have faster, cheaper connections because higher contention would be doable with no apparent loss of quality of service, especially on the upstream side of things as this is where the biggest difference in relative usage is. In some areas upstream usage is higher than downstream despite the highly asymettrical speeds, simply due to people running servers, be they FTP or P2P, on their connections.

A hell of a lot of capacity increases have been due to nothing more than this P2P / FTP upstream usage. Unlike DSL the access / transport network on cable is inherently asymettrical. Lines had to be drawn somewhere, if heavier users are going to leave ntl I think that'd go down as 'mission accomplished'.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

That's the bugbear, I don't download much either, mainly program, and Windows Updates and such like, but you never know how you usage will change.

If it was 30gb per month, then it wouldn't matter if you used a few gigs in one day, so long as you balanced it out over the month. If it's 1gb per day, then it's going back to the old days of the 2 hour cut-off on dial-up, having to hope your update completes before the 2 hour cut-off appears. Only this time it will be hoping you have enough of your daily allowance left to do any updates / download you need to do.

Same scenario, just modernized for today.

I've been monitoring my use for 28days now, and it's looking like the month will be around 2gb use. But when we get the speed increase we'll probably be online gaming more (2 PCs), so gb used will increase. It would be better if you could play more some days, and less on others if you chose too, so long as your total use is within the limit. It's a bit short-sighted when they advertise broadband for gaming, streaming video, radio, video conferencing etc, then limit your use.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

grab a couple of films from usenet and go over 10 gig easily.

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

That would be piracy and illegal, surely no-one here would use their connection in such a way and then complain about being restricted by their ISP in how much they can download each month :erm:

Re: [Merged] *ALL* ntl Cap Discussion In Here Please.
 

I probably should have been clearer. I meant early adopters, not excessive users when I said "Super User".
__________________

This has been done to death, there are plenty of threads around here on how you could legally do 10gb a day with ease.

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I am what you could call an "Early adopter". I have been using the Web since 1994 (possibly since 1993) and have been on a broadband connection since 2000. I still don't manage anywhere near 10 gig a day.

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1994? Same as me :) Anyone remmeber Mosaic?? :rofl: Spent many a happy hour downloading Nutscrape etc on a hi-speed 28.8 modem :erm: Well after I threw out the 9.6 and then my 14.4 modem anyway :p: Been on BB since it arrived in Peterborugh so probably nearly as long as you ;) 10g a day even when I was on 1Mb was never even aspired to let alone reached.

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An NTL power user service would be fine though, I am prepared to pay a reasonable premium for my 40-50GB a month usage. Apparently we lack choice:

"Yesterday the government highlighted UK broadband as having the best availability of all G7 nations. Sadly, research commissioned by the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) finds it lacking in price and choice"

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/cgi-bin/n...pyFyAkGXavmrGM

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Sounds like Metered BB to me, and on its way in Q2-3 according to the investor thingie

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There is quite a lot of difference between early adopters and superusers. I was using networked computers over long distances before most of you were born. I had my first home modem in 1982. The fact that I was one of the first early adapters doesn't mean that I want to download several gig a day. I know quite a lot of users who download as if there was no tomorrow and the vast majority of them are pretty new to the internet. They haven't got tired yet of downloading for all they're worth, copying it all to CD and DVD because they soon fill their hard disks quickly. The thing with them is that they hardly ever listen to, watch or play what they have downloaded. The most they do with it is give copies to friends. I don't know anyone who sells it but no doubt some do. The early adapters that I know have got fed up with constantly downloading and do very little of it.
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No one is doubting that you can download 10Gb a day legally, it's quite east to find that volume of legal downloads. But to do it day in and day out, every day, every week is absolute rubbish.

There is a lot of mention of what you will be able to do on the internet in the future. Many are saying that you won't be able to do these things on a NTL connection. Why not? This isn't the future it is now. Who knows what pricing and usage control there will be in the future? The problem today is that there is a minority of internet users who use the majority of ISPs resources and are not willing to pay the price for what they use. These are the ones who are holding back progress.

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It was companies like NTL who told users how much they could download and how fast they could do it. It was the likes of NTL who sold the service based on that very fact, telling people it was unlimited, and they could get as much as they like.

The people holding back NTL are the mangement of NTL themselves, who screwed things up so badly that it'll take years to fix things, and in the meantime they'll slowly fall further and further back, while ADSL takes over the market.

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It was also companies like NTL who right from the start told users what they COULD NOT DO with their connection but most complainers forget that little fact and completely disregard the parts that don't suit their requirements. Read the T&Cs and AUP and tell me I'm wrong. :)

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I have no reservations about what I use my connection for and to be honest alot of it is done on Newgroups....

I would not however consider myself a pirate and those that know the ins and outs of the meaning of the word in this sence would realise this.
To be collared with the tag "Pirate" would mean that I would either.....

A. Actually be the guy that goes into the projection booth and setup the Digital Cam and direct audio feed and encode these to SVCD. Or setup the Telecine machine to rip the digital image direct from the reel.

B. Download the above finished items and "Sell" them on to make a profit or even mass produce and sell.

These are the types that deserve the Pirate tags.

Those like myself who download for their own "personal" use are un-desreving of this tag. Also, polls on several P2P forums found that nearly 80% of those that download these releases from P2P sites are actually willing to part with their money for the original when it hits the streets. I have a huge collection of films and when they hit the shops they get ditched and the originals are bought to replace them. (as long as the film was not really bad, like say Alexander :Yikes: )

If downloaded from Newsgroups it is also worth noting that nothing illegal is being done on the part of the person downloading. For a person to be prosecuted for this type of thing they have to be actually "Uploading" the file and contributing to it's spread across the net. No uploading? No problem :D


This is not really the point though becuase it is easy to get through vast amounts of bandwidth without downloading anything that we shall call "dodgey".

In a reply to my post it was stated that I went on about the future of broadband rather than the present. But I thought I did speak alot about the present??
I pointed out about the Rental Downloads in the states and the TV in japan with Broadband and Hard disc. THAT is the PRESENT ! ! ! At least it is for these countries.....But sadly not for us. Why do we not have streamed rentals direct to our PC's or TV's?? Simply becuase we are so far behind these countries in technology.
And while we are sitting here thinking about what WE have at the present and not what OTHER countries have in the present will will ALWAYS be a step behind.

Which brings me nicely back to the 30GB cap on their top tier.

I really do fail to see how the others can cap SO MUCH higher. Not just 10-20GB more but over 240GB more! ! or 470GB more for ukonline.

Surely NTL is holding the technology and the country back and not us "Heavy" users that use it for what it was designed to do......Shift large amounts of data and lightening speed.

I have no problems about going to another I.S.P when the caps come and would quite willingly drop to a slower speed to ensure either "No" cap or at the very least a "Beleivable" one. The piont is though that I have been with NTL now since they started BB in my area and have had EXCELLENT service with them. For this reason I do not really want to leave them and would love to carry on with them.
All I ask is for a service that suits people like myself and the many others out there.

Other I.S.P's can give it to me, why not NTL?? :(

Sorry for another long post....... :erm: :o

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Yep, just like I remember when we got ntl in when they first arrived here about 8yrs ago (it was Comcast then), the salesman gqave his patter....the phone line rental was £4.28, and I said to him, yeah but they're bound to put the price up once they've got you on it.

Oh no he says, we're cheaper than BT, and it'll stay that way...yeah right...lol ;)

They get you onboard with all the promises, then move the goalposts. They should be the best TV/Internet and phone provider in the country with owning their own network, it's the management that seems to fall short.

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If it is heavy users holding back progress then why in other countries around the world with the same heavy users are they making massive speed progress and cutting prices?

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Because ntl quite obviously don't want to.

As a business they have the absolute right to provide any service they want, and impose any restrictions they desire. If these do not meet your requirements then you have the choice to go elsewhere. I would have thought it quite obvious by now that ntl do not want people who download huge amounts each month on their network, so they are going to taylor their products to discourage these people. If that makes a few thousand heavy users leave for another ISP then quite frankly I think they will be well pleased to be shot of them, and so will the rest of the customers who are suffering because of them.

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Crikey, nice post ..... no wonder some people get their backs up on here :rolleyes:

As a business they have the absolute right to provide any service they want, and impose any restrictions they desire. .... and I suppose the same applies to all your jobs that are swiftly disappearing elsewhere ;)

... ntl do not want people who download huge amounts each month on their network ..... and they (you) define huge amounts as over 1gb per day (if I've been following this right), which immediately puts many of the aforementioned legal ways to download large files out of reach. Advancing technology = NTL at the back of the queue again :p:

If that makes a few thousand heavy users leave for another ISP then quite frankly I think they will be well pleased to be shot of them, and so will the rest of the customers who are suffering because of them. ..... hmmm, I was under the impression there have ALWAYS been heavy users on NTL (and others), and yet this suffering we are seeing is a new(ish) phenomenon that is probably more likely to do with management than a few thousand heavy users :)

just my 2p .... you can shoot me if it makes you feel better ;)

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you obviously dont remember or didnt see the flyer they sent out a few years back - the one suggesting you can use your broadband connection to download films - the one with the picture of spiderman on it taken directly from the movie poster!!! They were selling the service as a product to download movies.

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I do, and the problem with that ad (as well as the legality issue) was that it came out immediately after NTL "announced" the cap, then went on to advertise the fact that with their UNLIMITED service you could download loads of illegal movies, which understandably got people's backs up.

The timing was appalling (as per usual)

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Well it seems Pipex is another ISP that doesn't agree caps are the future. I'm actually quite looking forward to my inevitable switch to ADSL now.

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Must...resist...temptation...to...say..."I...told. ..you...Pipex...rocked"..... :disturbd:

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I remember it well. :) I am not saying that NTL are saints or have never been misleading with their advertising. What I am saying is that some people only remember one side of the matter. You hear the "I was sold NTL broadband as an unlimited service that can do this that or the other" side but not the side which covers illegal use of the service. To be honest, if you read all the information available at the time of the "Spiderman" flyer NTL were not saying that "anyone" could download the Spiderman movie. If "you" was given permission to download the film by the copyright holders then it was quite legal for you to do so. If you did not have their permission then it was illegal for you to do so. Advertising can suggest certain things are possible but you have to look at every aspect to see if it is possible for "you" to do the things legally.

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Except they had a picture of the latest Spiderman movie on that same flyer that was telling people they could use their BB service to download movies.

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So, they were telling you that you could download movies which is quite correct, you can.

They were also telling you that you could download the Spiderman movie which again is quite correct if you have the copyright holders permission.

It's just like buying a fast car such as the 9 litre V8 Corvette special which averaged 235 mph on Nevada desert roads. It could be advertised quite rightly as being a car that allows you to drive at over 200 mph but try doing that on the M1 and see if you can get away with it.m I don't think that the judge would accept the fact that the advert said you could drive at over 200 mph as being mitigating circumstances for your breach of the law.

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:rofl:

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Well, as I have stated many many times before, and as you have just backed up, if anyone doesn't like the restrictions NTL imposes, 99.9% of the time, they do have the freedom to go elsewhere.

I know I will be if the caps cause me a problem.

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Not quite. Car adverts of that kind always include '*where permitted' in the small print. NTL made no such disclaimer in their advert. In fact, what they said was that the Spiderman movie was available to download from the 'net before it was even in the cinema. Blatant incitement to perform an illegal act.

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Thanks Chris, that exactly the point I was trying to make.

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The difference with fast cars is there are places of you can legally drive at such speeds. Track days, driving across Europe, private land, etc... Obviously it takes a little common sense where you chose to do it.

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NTL would not have to put any such disclaimer in the advert. The law overides everything else and everyone should know the law. Ignorance of the law is no defence.
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Of course. :) Likewise there are times when you can legally download copyright material, for instance by having the copyright holders permission.

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At the time of the advertisement there was no legal way of downloading Spiderman, even with permission of the copyright holder.

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But they didn`t, did they? If you were with NTL from the early days of cable modem roll-out there weren`t any caps, so how could they have told customers about them from the beginning? Not to mention the fact that NTL actually did their best not to tell customers by slipping the changes out quietly on a Friday afternoon, and not to mention the fact that the manner in which they did it contravenes their own T&Cs and AUP, so if anyone took them to court then from a legal perspective it could be argued that NTL *haven`t* told customers everything they need to know.

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I agree completely. Anyone caught warezing Spidey could not claim in court a valid defence that it was OK because NTL said they could do it. However, the very fact that someone could claim in court that they did it because NTL said so does leave NTL exposed to a charge of incitement to commit an offence.

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If the copyright holders wished to allow internet transfer of the film to people for review, etc they could have done just that, no doubt having a plethora of non-disclosure and similar restrictions on how the copy could be used. Neither of us know if that actually happened or not. The general public would not have had any legal method of downloading the film but that is immaterial.

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How very pedantic of you.

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I think you will find its a lot more then a few thousand, we are talking anyone who uses more then 30gig a month not just 24/7 downloaders, Probably more like 100 thousand.

Have a look at this.

http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?c...=main&id=27123

It also debatable if its even illegal.

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I agree with most of what you are saying but you are missing my point. Right from the start there have been T&Cs that say you should not use your connection for certain activites which included, amongst other things, not using it to transfer copyright material without the copyright holders permission. This term has been overlooked in much of the argument and discussion regarding caps but contravention of it by some customers is the prime reason for caps being introduced.

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I also think this "term" was overlooked when they made up that flyer! LMAO

And that's the point I was making, let's not get too self righteousness when condemming (illegal) movie downloaders as NTL themselves have mislead/misinformated people in the past with their advertising.

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Correct me if i'm wrong, but at that time there were NO legal means to download copyrighted films, no matter what way you look at it. So ntl were in fact endorsing illegal use of their service.

The only legal way to download a copyrighted film, would be if the makers (or someone on their behalf) offered the films for download, on a pay by movie basis. There wasn't such a service available, and i don't even think there is now. So at the very least ntl were leading it's users up the garden path with lies, and at worst they were endorsing illegal downloads.
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So they could sell their phone service saying 'it's perfect for ordering drugs' - and when questioned by the police they could just say 'ah, but if drugs were ever to become legal, our phone service would be perfect for placing orders to your local dealer, however at the moment we do not endorse such things, even though its' in black and white... oops'.

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ahhh yes but they were expecting you to ring up the copyright holder and say "hey NTL adverised downloading of spider-man, please can we agree terms so I can do this"!

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One possible explanation is that you could use your connection to view the trailer / advert for Spiderman or any other movie for that matter.

Not that I disagree with you all - but its a possible explanation...

Phil.