Re: smoking and the pub
 

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just me then. And I live on a busy street and my son hardly ever goes into pubs.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How am I 'stamping my feet' and how am I not making much sense? Can you really imagine many non-smokers (people who choose not to smoke because of the negative effects) choosing to enter a room that is sealed and designed specifically for smokers, when there large part of the pub is smoke free?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Smoking is bad for your health, and yes passive smoking is also. Why we are debating the right to smoke or not to smoke in a public house is because a complete ban, that inflicts itself on individual freedom of choice, which is everybodys right, smoker or non-smoker, is bad. Smoking is not illegal, therfore you should have a democratic right as to your own personal choice.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

'fraid so, mate. It's a vote-loser not a vote-winner. :(

Re: smoking and the pub
 

With the ban you can still exercise your personal right to smoke in private or outside. As the situation currently stands, there is a large majority of smoking pubs, so the non-smokers who are in the majority, are not well catered for. The new legislation on pubs that serve food will hopefully be a step towards a total ban. But whatever happens, unless smoking becomes banned altogether, smokers will still have the right to continue their habit in private. Please remember that you are not currently allowed to smoke in shops, many cinemas, many shopping centres, and many airports, and no one seems to complain about that.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Can i just say... How long do any of you even spend in the pub?? :Yikes: :D

Point is, if the ban is going to happen it will happen. None of the CF Members are going to be able to change it no matter how much they all bitch at each other.

We will get used to it, either way.

By the way, i'm getting a bit tired of reading 'smokers' like we are some alien universe. There's an awful lot of stereotyping and judging going on in this thread. Whether you are a smoker, drinker, gambler, shopaholic or heroin addict everyone is the same and should be treated so.
I can see the points about smoking, as it obviously is bad for your health, as are a lot of things.

I 've always said i wish they would up the price of a packet of fags to sbout £200 then it could be reserved for the rich, without making it totally illegal which would just encourage more shipping from overseas. etc..!:D:p:

I am a smoker, a very considerate one by the way.;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Good point but I suppose it has alot to do with tradition. Alcohol and smoking are closely associated in many people's minds, hence why when trying to give up it's a good idea not to go in a pub. Not so much because of the smoke but because of the psychological associations.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Most evenings.....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I hear what you're saying - I think it's happening a little both ways to be honest. Like 'smokers are ****, 'non-smokers are holier-than-thou snobs'. I think if the debate continues we should refer more to the habit itself than the person who does it. Earlier on there seemed to be some confusion that smokers would be excluded from non-smoking establishments, whereas in fact it is the act of smoking itself, rather than the person that is to be excluded.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, not just you. But go and start a thread on vehicle emissions instead of diverting a discussion on smoking!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hard to imagine isn't it,
non-smokers wanting to enter a place which (again by law) allows smoking. :(
But then again,it would be a public place where non-smokers have rights.

Please carry on,you're making your own points worthless in this debate.
You and the anti smokers who take kids into pubs,knowing what they are subject to!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It wasn't diverting but comparing and just suggesting whether the priorities were in the right place and asking for opinions on that. :confused:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Umm, no, I could decide it's not worth the risk being a pedestrian and stay at home, which is what smokers seem to think those of us who want to drink in a smoke-free pub should be doing. That is plainly silly, as it remains a cold, hard fact that smokers are the minority, and yet seem to think it's still their right to expect the majority to accommodate them.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hardly ever nowadays. Didn't you know 'staying in is the new going out' ;)

People will have to agree to disagree on this thread topic. Can't see it ever ending otherwise! :D

:angel:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How long do people spend visiting those places compared to the pub?

What about private clubs which serve food to members?
Non-members cannot enter, so why should members who accept the smoking conditions either have to leave their club to smoke, or no longer be able to get food there?
__________________

Ah but walking down the road you are not choosing to be a target are you?
Sure you are exposing yourself to risk, but you are not choosing to definitely suffer that risk.
Going into a smokey environment you are choosing to passive smoke.

If you want to visit a pub which currently allows smoking, why not get a petition together and write to the landlord to show them the number of people who would drink there if it became a no-smoking establishment?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am not making my own point worthless at all. If I go into a smoking room, the smoke will be much more concentrated than if I go into a pub with smokers in it, as there is a smaller volume of air and a higher concentration of smokers. Does that clear it up?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Smokers are in the minority nationally, yes. But they are a majority in my local. I'm not expecting every pub to accomodate me as a smoker. But I don't think it's unreasonable for the landlord to be allowed to choose who they accomodate for.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Actually, base jumping is illegal in the UK (insofar as you can't legally jump from Buildings, Antennae and Spans (bridges)). All you're left with is Earth. So, E jumping is legal. ;)

Regardless of that, though, your analogy falls down on the issue of scale. Exactly how many people are injured in underwear-related accidents each year, and how many might be avoided with the introduction of *effective* legislation?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And it seems vice-versa. :devsmoke:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I've also noted that no one has bothered to answer the question re prioities.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:rolleyes: Don't exaggerate, I am sure 'smoking' places will still have a no smoking area.

I get the impression people are envising a dark room completely filled with smoke to the point where you can't see!:D
It's not as bad as people are making out now, so it won't be much differet when the ban comes in.
A lot of people will stop smoking, it's a good reason to, especially if a lot of others are stopping.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Because out stupid **** money wasting nanny governing goverment have already done it for them without the courtesy of a petition :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I think its because both sides believe they have the divine right to dictate to each other how they should live. Both are wrong, in that respect.

Live and let live.

I don't smoke, but I don't believe in nany state legistlation. Let free market capitalism decide. If non-smoking is what people want, then that's what pubs will cater for. If smoking is what people want, then that's what pubs will cater for.

Let the public decide what they want. Wether a non-smoker wants to sit with smokers enjoying themselves, or a smoker sitting with non-smokers enjoying themselves. Let people decide. Let's not have this "I'm right.... no, I'M right" mentality.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not at all, smokers are not the majority. Even in a pub, where most of the regulars may smoke, all you are getting is a self-selecting group made of people who don't object to the smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

OB - I didn't think you were allowed to smoke in shops as it would set off the fire alarms? or are they not ionisation systems??

Because thinking about it, I've never seen anyone smoking in a shop...

Also - the fact that wetherspoons isnt the best pub ever doesn't detract from the fact that its hugely sucessful - (smokers want cheap booze too!)

The food is not made from scratch on site, but they have appropriate kitchen facilities and the food is not pre packaged as such - meat cooked properly on site etc.

Food in wetherspoons accounts for 25% of all their sales, as opposed to 5% in 1992, they believe this increase in sales to be directly linked to their addition of non-smoking pubs.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Free market capitalism has never been, and will never be, a driver of improvements to health and safety. This is a dangerous idea and, thankfully, one that has no serious support in any western developed country (which is why, amongst other things, owners of buildings are compelled to spend money on inconvenient things like fire extinguishers and high-visibility exit signs - items which do nothing for the bottom line of the business).

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Actually no, because the regulations for smoke in a public place would still apply, so such a room would have forced air ventilation just like a large pub has, and due to the small confined space, they are likely to be more efficient at clearing the air.

A lot of non-smokers, like myself, go into a smoking pub because we have friends who smoke and enjoy their company.
Now, if they all get corralled into a segregated smoking area which is sealed off, in order to spend time with them, I'd have to also go into that sealed off area, along with anyone else who also wants to spend time with their smoking friends.
Unless you think that non-smokers should be banned from going into the smoking area?

Don't even thinking about saying "but you can wait for them outside" why the hell should I? Don't you know how many promotions and business deals are done in company smoking sheds? Hundreds of non-smokers miss out on promotions simply because they aren't able to spend time with smokers while they smoke due to space constraints.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

OK one last go it must be getting a bit smoky in here, and I've been accused - falsely I feel - of diversionary tactics but does it not feel a bit back to front of our Government to be putting so much time and effort into a ban that may save 54 bar workers a year but very little on the estimated 39,000 deaths caused by vehicle emissions?

Are non-smokers happy to go into a smoke free pub but not get out of thier cars? ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I know, you've already said that... Laws will be there if the pub allows smoking or not. Wether a pub allows smoking or not, things like fire escapes and fire extinguishers will be covered.

People should be able to make an informed descision on what they will and won't do. Some jobs are riskier than others. Some lifestyles are riskier than others. Let people decide. People should be encouraged to avoid/quit altogether smoking, not having it forced upon them by an opressive government.

I like atm having the opportunity to choose wether I sit with smokers or non-smokers. I resent having that basic human right of freedom of choice restricted.

Of course, choice, which is what free market capitalism allows for doesn't go down with with your average socialist (i.e. oppressive and authoritiarian) government.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Don't get into free market definitions of choice or this thread will never end ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ssshh!!! It doesn't suit their agenda to get out of the car and walk. They like their cars! Smokers are a MUCH easier target. :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Can't smoke in malls. Shock! Horror!

Wetherspoons are still crap though :) That is, of course, another debate.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You can't see how you're contradicting yourself?
....BEGGERS BELIEF!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Cars are also functional things (not that I'm advocating in any way ignoring the dangers of air pollution)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I know I said it before, but then you made the point about free markets before. This whole thread is orbiting round and round the same core issues.

Something else I've said before is to draw the parallel with road traffic law. Do you resent the curtailment of your right to choose to drive at 90mph through a built-up area while steaming drunk, or do you agree that it is acceptable to curtail freedom of choice when there are larger health and safety issues at stake?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hmmm, we had the debate about protecting staff before didn't we?! Scratchs head, pulls toe nails out, seks distraction - any distraction - from this interminable thread.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So are cigarettes for many people esp. as I have already argued many suffering from mental health problems.

But the point I was making wa smore concerned with Government priority.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is what i mean....... stereotyping, judging, categorizing......

Why? Some smokers drive, some smokers don't. Same goes for non smokers.

'They' may like their cars. BUT if you want to get all stereotypical- non smokers who are fit may actually prefer to walk- to keep fit.
Same way as some smokers might not drive because they can't afford to as they buy 20 fags every day.:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is the point I'm making. Cars are useful to some of the non-smokers on here, it's OK for them to keep those on the road. BUt because they don't smoke, they'll support a blanket ban.
__________________

I can do both.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No. I was actually referring to lippy's comment that 'let's just wait and see how long it will be before the non-smokers try and come into the smoking room.'
Perhaps you are not making yourself clear. Please explain how I am contradicting myself.
:tu:
Not comparably so.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sorry, but as the law is not in already, I feel fairly safe in assuming that anyone that currently wokrs in a pub isn't too fussed about smoking. You've have to be a complete and utter idiot to take a job like that if you don't like smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The analogy isn't consistent with the smoking argument. Drunk drivers kill innocent people. People don't choose to be in a drunk driver's path. There is no choice there.

I am talking about giving non-smokers the choice wether they want to be next to smokers or not.

Firefighting, police work is risky work, but you can't devise laws to stop people taking those jobs. You have to let people decide how much risk they want to take for themselves.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Very comparably so to those who need them in the same way that someone needs a car. Smoking for some is a huge coping mechanism.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Fags aren't functional, was the point I was making

Re: smoking and the pub
 

WTF?? How do you come up with these assumptions?

Nealry every single non smoker i know, doesn't care about passive smoking.
In fact, at work they all come out to the smoking area.
I haven't met many anti smokers in my life at all- so what makes you think that everyone who works in a smoking bar ahould be either a smoker or an idiot?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

When we covered that aspect, however, we also learned, did we not, that smoking contributes to depression in those that later quit as it depresses production of serotonin, and that it masks mental health issues from being professionally dealt with because smokers 'self medicate' (and, ironically, poison themselves in the process).

I think that in the long term, the nation's mental health would still be better without tobacco. No serotonin deficiency, and professional help for those who need it, rather than a poisonous habit.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

To you. To others they are a stress release mechanism.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This thread makes me need a fag.......:rofl::devsmoke::smokin:

:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So is masturbation. Thank your stars they're not making that illegal. :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I have no idea what sort of responses you would get if you told all smokers that they either have it quit, or give up their cars. But anyway the point is, if you looked at the population as a whole, and asked what was more important, cigarettes, or cars, you know what response you would get.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oi!!! :bsmack: :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Coming ( :erm: *ahem*) from the guy that wears glasses - you know it makes you blind, don't you :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Quite possibly so, and this is why we have 39000 deaths from vehicle emmisons and 59 bar staff deaths from passive smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Haha, I've got strange thoughts about sealed off rooms in pubs now...:shocked:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You can't compare the numbers of deaths caused by vehicle emmissions to the number of bar staff deaths caused by passive smoking, now come on...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Clarie,is it true that you want to enter a place where smoking is allowed and you'd like the people who smoke to be somewhere different?

Yes or no!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

lippy, what I want is for smoking to be banned in all enclosed public places, and for the pubs and restaurants where there are a lot of smoking customers, a sealed room or an outhouse to be provided.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

1. It's not about liking/disliking smoking, it's about health and protecting staff as they are in other work environments
2. Job choice might not be there, idiot or not (though idiots probably have less job choice)
3. I'm bored

Re: smoking and the pub
 

A cleverly edited statistic which, of course, factors *in* all deaths from emissions, yet factors *out* all deaths from passive smoke except bar staff.

(Although, in fact, the original article does not say vehicle emissions, it says air pollution, most of which is from vehicles ;) )

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Was that a yes or no to my question?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Reike's better for you ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:rofl:
__________________

It was a no lippy. Although depends on what you intended by your question.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't go for that hippy rubbish, I just shout and slam things :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No!...good stay out of the pub then! :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I didn't I'm using the figures and argument that George Monbiot uses here
Comes down to priorities for me.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're not making sense now...

And nor is that a reasonable thing to suggest.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Now who's being pedantic ;)

Good point about masturbation though :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I bet that makes you sore in the morning ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

These figures don't even consider the non-smokers who aren't working in the pubs.

Furthermore as we have said so many times, the ban on smoking in public places doesn't mean we cannot address the car fumes problem as well.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That wasn't what I was saying....:erm: Someone said about the health and saftey as far as passive smoking is concerned for bar staff. I was pointing out that if you did in fact detest smoky places or have a high intolerance to passive smoking you'd be a fool to take a job in a pub.....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What I'd like to see is some comparison between the amount of smoking that goes on in the UK and the amount of driving. It seems to me that a bald statistic comparing death from smoking to death from air pollution (important point, the article *did not* put all air pollution down to vehicle emissions) is meaningless.

For example, prior to the Paris crash, Concorde was IIRC the safest commercial airliner in the world. Afterwards, it was one of the most dangerous. This of course was simply because there were not many Concordes and not many flights, so the statistical effect of a single crash was artificially magnified.

Similarly, how do you compare miles driven to fags smoked?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

See posts above, then rejoin the merry-go-round.


SOMEBODY PLEASE ANNIHILATE THIS THREAD!!!!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Let's look at this from another angle... at the moment, you, as a pedestrian, have the choice of walking either along the pavement or you can walk on the side of the road. You're fully aware that walking on the pavement is the safest option, but it would inconvenience you more than walking in the road from time to time. Should you have the choice as to where you choose to walk - if you want to, should you be allowed to walk on the road instead of always on the pavement?

If the government gets its way, they're saying that because of the risk of walking in the road and potentially getting run over, you're no longer allowed to not walk on the pavement, because they've decided it should be that way. Even if you want to, you will not do it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How's this?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's a thoroughly bad analogy - the ban on smoking is not going to prevent you from standing outside a pub to smoke. It is just going to restrict you from smoking inside.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

In the analogy, you're still able to walk in your home, or anywhere else other than the pavement

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This doesn't take into account many of the other important factors - for example that smoking isn't just dangerous for the non-smoker but also for the smoker. Also the anti-social problems associated with it such as the terrible smell. To put this into your analogy, let's add that the driver is also risking his own life, and causing terrible smells for everyone, making his and their clothes smell. Do you not then think it would be less of a case of free choice and more of a case of what can we do to reduce the numbers of drivers on the road full stop?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Smoking is legal yes?
It's a personal choice yes?
Not smoking is also a personal choice yes?
Not exposing yourself to passive smoking, or actually exposing yourself to passive smoking is also a personal choice, yes?
Is there anything about this that you're still confused by?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am not confused in the slightest thank you Xaccers. Repeat the same points if you like but it won't add weight to what you are saying.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Think the similarity is that they are both air pollutants (air pollution/smoke) and cause cancers that are both respiratory diseases and effect both lung and heart similary.
__________________

You seem to be repeating the same points of view aswell, as do I, and a good many others contributing to the thread discussion.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You seem to think that the owner of any establishment should bend to your will no matter if it will affect their ability to stay in business or not.
I believe that is a very self centred view.
If I don't like the enviroment of an establishment, I just won't go there. I certainly won't try and get the owner to change the enironment within their establishment.

And like I said, what about members only clubs where everyone has accepted that smoking takes place?
Either they have to stand outside the premises to smoke, or are denied the ability to eat at such clubs.
Why should they suffer because people like you can't accept that people have the right to choose if they want to expose themselves to unhealthy activities.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ah, but you might get run over while you're stood outside - bloody car drivers ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I understand that. However, how much exposure to each substance is required to produce the carcinogenic effect? How many tonnes of toxins are released into the environment annually by each activity? And how much could reasonably be reduced by the introduction of sensible legislation?

You can't simply say 'car exhaust kills more people than tobacco smoke'. Before the statistic can be meaningful, you have to understand how many tonnes of each pollutant is required to kill one person.

None of the above, by the way, should be taken to mean that nothing should be done about air pollution and vehicle exhaust's role in it. In fact, a lot has been done already. Legislation has removed lead from petrol, fitted catalytic converters to exhaust pipes and reduced sulphur and particulates in diesel engine exhaust. Still, more can be done. And I will be happy to debate it endlessly just as soon as one of the pro-smokers who profess to care so much about it, demonstrates their care by starting another thread on it, instead of using it as a spurious argument against targeting smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

One night at work my husband needed to get some information (away from the normal work environment) from some others at work and the only way he could get the info was to join the smokers (who had the info) in the outdoor shelter. That morning he came home reeking of cigs!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What we need here is a smiley with a sad head, flopped to one side, tongue out, head in a noose. This would depict thread contributors and watchers who are failing to control their addiction to the thread and the need therefore for drastic action to halt the circular arguments.
__________________

Probably by some blighter brushing hot ash off their trousers (genital region) whilst navigating the ring road :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But we really are talking about a ban on smoking in bars/restaurants. I can't think of any other public enclosed place where it isn't already forbidden to smoke. Car emissions affect everyone and can be attributable to the deaths of many more people. It should be the number 1 priority.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

To be provided for the non- smokers I presume you mean?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Now there's a thought, Claire, would you be happy with a sealed room or outhouse that was smoke free for you to stay in?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But to use your argument from earlier, when I was asking for specific research, that as this would take a long time to undertake should not mean that we do not act now. Therefore would it not be sensible to ban (or seriously restrict) driving and flying until we have all the facts? As we appear to have done for smoking in public places.

For me the comparison was more about Government time and priority, ratehr than a spurious, we shouldn't do anything about smoking because vehicle emissions are very bad too.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I nearly ran into a lamppost when I dropped a fag down myself once :erm:

The weird thing was I wasn't even in the car :disturbd:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's an interesting notion but here's the thing:
a) The majority of the population are NON smokers.
b) My non-smoking does not affect you in the slightest. It is the smoke itself causing the offense, therefore it should be the smoke that moves.
c) A non-smoking outhouse does not protect the bar staff.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Self service. That is the only answer ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Again, you are contrasting the entirety of the problem with air pollution (not all of which is from vehicles) with a specific aspect of the problem with smoking, thereby distorting the ratio of the apparent scale and complexity of the two problems.

Even so, maybe vehicle emissions should be a higher priority, but as vehicle emissions are a direct result of economic activity (so you can't simply ban, or even heavily restrict, vehicles), and are a social necessity for vast numbers of people, the issue is more complex and requires bigger, strategic solutions. Many such solutions are already in place - catalytic converters, low-sulphur fuel, lead-free fuel, emissions testing in the MOT, and so on - and many are in development or are encouraged by the Government through tax, such as LPG, fuel cell and similar technology.

This smoking ban, on the other hand, has been identified as a very straightforward way of tackling a serious, but identifiable and containable problem.

And as I have said countless times now, the existence of other problems does not in any way mean we should do nothing about smoking - especially if smoking is easier to target.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

1. The majority of patrons of smoking establishments are smokers. This will affect them more than the majority of non-smokers in the UK
2. You have the choice of not entering a smoking establishment, no one is forcing you
4. Where's 3?
5. Not working in a smoking establishment protects anyone who doesn't want to work there due to the smoke.
6. Your wishing to deny me the choice to enter a smoking establishment and eat affects me.




3. Ahh here it is

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're expecting prioritisation from the Government that dedicated weeks of Parliamentary time to stopping a few thousand horse riders from chasing foxes across the countryside? If there's one thing this Government does not do, it's prioritise effectively.

Even so, I reject the suggestion that just because we are talking about smoking now, it means that no-one has done anything about vehicle emissions. Without wishing to repeat myself, I said in a previous post above, the emissions problem is vastly greater and more complex. Nevertheless, a lot has been done. Nobody is saying we should do nothing about emissions until we understand the problem better. What I said earlier was that I will not accept the casual abuse of statistics that has been posted, comparing air pollution death with passive smoking death among bar staff, when we have no background or context within which we might understand if the comparison is even valid.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh! The Humanity! LOL! :D

Seriously, you're quite right. Smoking is a smelly habbit, especially for non-smokers.

:angel:
__________________

Or employ bar staff who smoke themselves. It could be added to the job description quite easily! ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

We are not talking about this anymore.......:rofl: The discussion has moved on...

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I dunno, I quite liked my analogy :rolleyes: My ban wouldn't stop you from walking alongside the road, just from walking on the road itself. Similarly, you're suggesting that smokers will be allowed to smoke near the pub, just not inside it.

I don't disagree that the ban would prevent people from having a smoke in the street, but what I'm saying (and have been all along) is that the ban takes away the fundamental choice that you and I and everyone else, as adults, currently have over what we are allowed to do and when and where. I believe vehemently in adults being given the option to choose what is right for them, this applies to smoking cigarettes in a pub, drinking alcohol, having an abortion, believing in God, standing for parliament as a member of the BNP, etc... etc... etc... However, I'm aware that some people feel that it is acceptable to have your rights removed like this. Personally, I'd like to have the choice to smoke outside or inside the pub... or even not to smoke at all if I chose to.

I'm getting a sense of dÃÃâ€*’©ja vu :spin:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But this legislation is designed to protect staff in places of work and as the only place of work where smoking is still permitted (that I can think of) is pubs. So it really only protects bar staff which is a fair point. How often is the general non-smoker in a pub, a few nights a week on average? Their exposure to tobacco smoke is minimal compared to the toxins and nasty stuff that we are all breathing 24/7. General polution is a much bigger problem and affects many more people than this legislation is designed to protect.

I agree that it is much more difficult to target econimic activity for various reasons. But to legislate for the protection of an area of employment which kills 54? bar staff a year seems to be a case of misplaced priorities.

Ok, smoking is easy to target and I'm all for segregated smoking areas with adequate ventillation to address the concerns of bar staff but I get the feeling that the hype over the smoking ban in pubs is more to do with the fact that non-smokers just don't like it. How much would it really affect non-smokers if there were separate smoking areas in pubs, unless you're there more than you really should be. ;)