Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why didn't Drayton phorm this service before joining Phorm. Could have saved him some grief...
"The mists are clearing, I see trouble in my crystal ball. And a pop up ad, hey, that's never happened before?!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Comments about "another forum" fully taken on board. I certainly don't want to discuss that here. There is enough of a stink already going on about it over on Beta - thanks guys!

BUT ... :erm:

there is a related issue or two that may be relevant.

It occurs to me to wonder on what basis such a banning works. It has relevance when we think about the way Webwise will work.

By IP address? No good - BT Residential customers have dynamic IP addresses so change your IP and you are someone else.

Maybe they do it by BT account number - which they ask you for (but don't actually "require" when you sign up for BT forums - well that works for BT Forums (and I would guess was how a backup identity or two that I created earlier, but had only used once, as a test, were automatically banned along with my main one, when the ban came). But that doesn't work for Webwise either because the cookies won't contain that info.

By phone line? (BT Broadband accounts authenticate nowadays on CLI - caller line identity) But then there is no way of distinguishing who you are dealing with at the other end of that line. Which brings us right back to the cat who opts everyone in the home network to Webwise. (Sorry in advance to all cat lovers - no cats were harmed in the making of this post). Phorm have created such a privacy revolution with their boast that they don't know who you are, that they are stuck with not recognising a cat when they see one.

The Webwise cat who can change someone's T&C's.
The cat with legal powers.
McCavity the Webwise cat who isn't there.
Maybe I should research my T S Eliott.
I think that cat has a future in the campaign.
BT the company that enters into contracts with cats.
"Darling, the cat has signed us up to Webwise, and deleted all the holiday photos, and is it true I have to paint our lovely home black to match the new HomeHub? I did try to get the photos back from Digital Vault but I can't log in to Digital Vault today."
Gentle ridicule can be very effective.

The next BT survey perhaps could investigate how many cats prefer their owners to use Webwise, in fact preferred it so much that they signed them up for it because Phorm offered them a years supply of Caesar.
Can cats go to court?
Can a cat be sued for breach of contract?

Finally - BT have managed to make one of my predictions come true. I said that Webwise would simply result in more people surfing anonymously and using encryption. Now for the first time in my life I am considering the use of web proxies and a greater use of alias identities than I ever used to. This has to be a BAD thiing. I prefer to post and surf as ME except in rare situations. But now I will be thinking much more about anonymity and subterfuge and that can't really be healthy. I don't like it. But my devious, deceitful, bone-headed ISP and the powers-that-be who are somehow collaborating with them, have forced me to it.

So back to my main point. Computer use is much more complicated than Phorm seem to realise. It isn't one IP address, one computer. Most homes now have networks behind the router. Most homes are now using wireless, and many homes contain a variety of adults. BT Fon, Openzone, and a variety of other wireless hotspots exist. Phorm cannot cope with these. It can't cope with them as far as identifying people goes (hence issues around temporary black/whitelisting of IP addresses after someone opts out of Webwise) - and it can't cope with them from a security point of view - the various users of a given IP address who are either opted-in or not opted-in, ignorant or knowlegeable about Webwise, including McCavity the Webwise cat, customers of the same ISP or just piggy backing on someone elses connection (legally) - from what I have read so far (and IANAT - I Am Not A Techie) they are going to be exposed to a security and privacy nightmare. And BT don't seem to care one hoot.

Over on the BT business forums the mods are referring people to the BT Webwise FAQ. That is the one that is full of errors, inconsistencies, and hasn't been updated since early April of this year despite the various legal developments since then and the many many unanswered questions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

UK questioned on online ad system

The UK government has until the end of August to respond to a letter from the European Union about the controversial online ad system Phorm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7542810.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if anyone spotted this but well here goes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7542810.stm

LOL phormwatch just beat me to it if i hadn't been posting it on BT beta first :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe this is their main problem (philosophically). Back in previous incarnations, they were dealing direct with the user of the PC. They used impenetrable EULAs to get consent for their *wares. If people didn't each have a separate account on the PC they would all be tracked - this has been mentioned wrt Phorm.

So it would seem that having been "found out" they have moved to the ISP level, but still use the same thought processes as though they had forced the impenetrable EULA on someone, not thinking about multiple computers sharing a connection, in the same way they dismiss the idea of several people sharing a logon.

I wonder if Openzone will track anyway after accepting their T&Cs? Or if the informed consent will include warnings that if you're a Fon user you may be profiled when you use someone else's connection? The more we discuss this the more gaping holes there seem to be in their thinking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

pwned, Flo. ;)

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

If you can get me a copy of the letter to the pensioners, I think I know of a few people who might be very interested in seeing it...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A shame there's no option to 'Have your Say' for this article.

The section that reads
It seems to give BT the green light to roll out Phorm and argue the toss later (and I can guess how that will go).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget that in order for these agencies to be able to jump up and down they need to have BT go ahead with the (new) trial. BT must be itting themselves

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the Information Comissioner pretty much has his hands tied now. Although I feel he should have taken action against the initial trials, since he hasn't, he has no power at the moment to proactively prevent practices being implemented which may lead to breaches. He has to wait for the roll-out before ruling again.

This I think was the subject of a review of his powers. I think there was some talk of bringing the ICO in line with the FSA, who have the power to fine financial institutions who simply put their customers data at risk. A bank was fined substantially after a laptop was stolen from an employees house. The bank can't be responsible for burlaries but they should have either encrypted the hard drive or prevented employees taking work home.

I'd say don't be too hard on Richard Thomas. Politics is a hard game and we need all the allies we can get.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a few jumbled thoughts while I take break from plumbing the bathroom (any excuse ;) )

to Virgin

If you implement Phorm I shall cancel my account. No further monies will be paid as it is my opinion YOU have broken the terms of our agreement.

If I were to remain a customer this would mean that YOU have made me party to an illegal act, which in itself is a crime.

Lawyers please

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh deep joy. Hope Emma has seen it. I've digged it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How difficult is it to say, "we were spying on everything you did while you were online, and we're selling that private information to other companies"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have posted on beta BT just to be sure..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The phrases "rock" and "hard place" come to mind. BT's ship of commerce trapped between The Scylla of illegality and the Charybdis of commercial collapse.

Or is it more a case of tying Ian Livingstone or Gavin Patterson to the mast with cotton wool in his ears so they can't hear the siren calls of Phorm?

There is a good collection building up of "memorable phrases" and "interesting contradictions" that need putting side by side.

We can see the whole internet - we don't know where you've been

We don't store urls - we know you looked for a Canon camera last week

We respect privacy - we handed the BT Webwise helpdesk to Phorm in the USA

Transparent to end users - we do not have any agreement with Phorm

Town hall meeting to answer the critics - sorry the video is not available

We offer customers choice - the cat can change your T&C's and opt you in

We demand you respect our web page copyright - we don't feel it is reasonable to respect yours.

And so on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can I post this over on Bt forums R Jones?