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ianch99 07-04-2019 18:54
Re: Brexit
 
This analysis of the Leave campaign raises a very disturbing point (start at 02:50 if you want to fast track to this):

Who pulls the strings behind Brexit?

The thing that made this campaign different was the Dark Advertising funded by Dark Money: where ads, funded by money of unknown provenance, were only seen by the sender (obviously), the social media platform (Facebook) and the targeted recipient.

The principles of an open democratic campaign totally subverted .. I know that members on this forum who believe in Democracy would wholeheartedly condemn this.

OLD BOY 07-04-2019 19:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35990351)

We will do whatever anyone negotiating with us (that has the upper hand) tells us to. USA, China, Japan, Germany, India, France. You know, all the big players. That’s why it’s called capitalism. He who pays the piper cells the tune.
Except that we are a big player, too.

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35990365)
This analysis of the Leave campaign raises a very disturbing point (start at 02:50 if you want to fast track to this):

Who pulls the strings behind Brexit?

The thing that made this campaign different was the Dark Advertising funded by Dark Money: where ads, funded by money of unknown provenance, were only seen by the sender (obviously), the social media platform (Facebook) and the targeted recipient.

The principles of an open democratic campaign totally subverted .. I know that members on this forum who believe in Democracy would wholeheartedly condemn this.
You are conflating the situation. Your comment assumes that people take notice of the stuff they read on social media and what they see in advertisements.

I, for one, take no notice at all. People have their opinions on things and advertisements are highly unlikely to sway most individuals.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35990333)
Baby steps works because it removes the cliff edge which is at present galvanising the opponents of Brexit. Get a deal and end freedom of movement now.

A future Government will be better placed to renegotiate trade agreements than this one which is tied to the whims of the ERG/DUP.

The backstop is why we need a proper customs union with exit rights. Move the Northen Ireland problem to when we have a Government that’s not relying on NI votes.
Again, you cannot have a customs union AND negotiate trade deals. If we cannot do trade deals, it is not Brexit, and not what the majority voted for.

Whether there is scope to agree with Labour a trading arrangement which still allows us to have an independent trade policy remains to be seen.

nomadking 07-04-2019 19:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35990365)
This analysis of the Leave campaign raises a very disturbing point (start at 02:50 if you want to fast track to this):

Who pulls the strings behind Brexit?

The thing that made this campaign different was the Dark Advertising funded by Dark Money: where ads, funded by money of unknown provenance, were only seen by the sender (obviously), the social media platform (Facebook) and the targeted recipient.

The principles of an open democratic campaign totally subverted .. I know that members on this forum who believe in Democracy would wholeheartedly condemn this.
Nonsense. Support for Brexit was there LONG before the idea of a referendum was put forward(eg 2010). Why shouldn't anybody and everybody be allowed to highlight a particular issue? How many people see, never mind pay attention to, ads on Facebook or anywhere else for that matter?

Pierre 07-04-2019 19:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35990365)
This analysis of the Leave campaign raises a very disturbing point (start at 02:50 if you want to fast track to this):

Who pulls the strings behind Brexit?

The thing that made this campaign different was the Dark Advertising funded by Dark Money: where ads, funded by money of unknown provenance, were only seen by the sender (obviously), the social media platform (Facebook) and the targeted recipient.

The principles of an open democratic campaign totally subverted .. I know that members on this forum who believe in Democracy would wholeheartedly condemn this.
Oooh, Dark money. Is that what Darth Vader uses?

Hugh 07-04-2019 19:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35990366)
Except that we are a big player, too.

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------



You are conflating the situation. Your comment assumes that people take notice of the stuff they read on social media and what they see in advertisements.

I, for one, take no notice at all. People have their opinions on things and advertisements are highly unlikely to sway most individuals.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------



Again, you cannot have a customs union AND negotiate trade deals. If we cannot do trade deals, it is not Brexit, and not what the majority voted for.

Whether there is scope to agree with Labour a trading arrangement which still allows us to have an independent trade policy remains to be seen.
Nobody takes any notice - must be why they spend millions of pounds creating and distributing this material, and try to hide where it came from... :rolleyes:

"These are not the droids you’re looking for..."

nomadking 07-04-2019 19:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35990372)
Nobody takes any notice - must be why they spend millions of pounds creating and distributing this material, and try to hide where it came from... :rolleyes:

"These are not the droids you’re looking for..."
And where is the PROOF that people take notice of them? Where would the ordinary person in the street get the money to fund these sorts of campaigns. Doesn't mean they don't agree with the content, it's just they don't have the backers that certain groups (eg trade unions) have. Does that mean their voice shouldn't be heard?



Whether an opinion or expression of FACT is allowed, shouldn't depend on its source.

jfman 07-04-2019 19:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35990366)
Except that we are a big player, too.

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------



You are conflating the situation. Your comment assumes that people take notice of the stuff they read on social media and what they see in advertisements.

I, for one, take no notice at all. People have their opinions on things and advertisements are highly unlikely to sway most individuals.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:01 ----------



Again, you cannot have a customs union AND negotiate trade deals. If we cannot do trade deals, it is not Brexit, and not what the majority voted for.

Whether there is scope to agree with Labour a trading arrangement which still allows us to have an independent trade policy remains to be seen.
You have failed to understand my posts.

You can have a customs union for goods and still strike trade deals in services. You are confusing “a” customs union with “the” customs union.

Again, you can’t possibly know what 17.4 million people voted for that wasn’t specified on the ballot paper.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35990376)
And where is the PROOF that people take notice of them? Where would the ordinary person in the street get the money to fund these sorts of campaigns. Doesn't mean they don't agree with the content, it's just they don't have the backers that certain groups (eg trade unions) have. Does that mean their voice shouldn't be heard?

Whether an opinion or expression of FACT is allowed, shouldn't depend on its source.
Literally all around you in life. On the side of buses, taxis, billboards, train stations, newspapers, magazines, televisions and probably the vast majority of websites the average user accesses is the proof.

If advertising doesn’t work why is so much money spent on it at all?

OLD BOY 07-04-2019 19:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35990378)
You have failed to understand my posts.

You can have a customs union for goods and still strike trade deals in services. You are confusing “a” customs union with “the” customs union.

Again, you can’t possibly know what 17.4 million people voted for that wasn’t specified on the ballot paper.
I have not misunderstood at all. I fully appreciate that the proposed customs arrangements would still allow us to do trade deals on services, but most leavers also want us to be able to do trade deals on goods as well.

We were clearly given reassurance that by being outside the EU we would be able to negotiate our own trade deals, which is an important economic imperative for leaving the EU. Yes leavers did understand and accept that.

You need to grasp the fact that it is the remainers who are confused. Time and time again, on Question Time and in interviews with the public, leavers are protesting that they DID know what they were voting for, contrary to what argumentative remainers keep saying.

You can keep repeating that they did not as much as you like, but that does not make you right, and I aill keep reminding you of this.

nomadking 07-04-2019 19:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35990378)
You have failed to understand my posts.

You can have a customs union for goods and still strike trade deals in services. You are confusing “a” customs union with “the” customs union.

Again, you can’t possibly know what 17.4 million people voted for that wasn’t specified on the ballot paper.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

Literally all around you in life. On the side of buses, taxis, billboards, train stations, newspapers, magazines, televisions and probably the vast majority of websites the average user accesses is the proof.

If advertising doesn’t work why is so much money spent on it at all?
Different sort of advertising. Ads on products to be chosen form a wide range is very different from ads based upon "political" opinions and principles. Still doesn't mean that viewpoint shouldn't be allowed because of who funded it.



Quote:
The EU has customs unions with the non-EU countries San Marino, Andorra and, most notably, Turkey. It also has customs facilitation treaties with countries such as Switzerland and Norway, but these treaties do not abolish all border checks on goods.
...
If pursued, a customs union option with the EU may pose similar problems for the UK post-Brexit. The UK would have to negotiate FTAs with the EU trading partners and grant them the same preferences (that is, apply the same tariff as that the EU). Third countries, however, could be reluctant to engage in such negotiations since they would anyways have access to UK markets through their FTAs with the EU. The issue would be especially important today when the EU is negotiating a number of ambitious FTAs.

jfman 07-04-2019 19:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35990385)
I have not misunderstood at all. I fully appreciate that the proposed customs arrangements would still allow us to do trade deals on services, but most leavers also want us to be able to do trade deals on goods as well.

We were clearly given reassurance that by being outside the EU we would be able to negotiate our own trade deals, which is an important economic imperative for leaving the EU. Yes leavers did understand and accept that.

You need to grasp the fact that it is the remainers who are confused. Time and time again, on Question Time and in interviews with the public, leavers are protesting that they DID know what they were voting for, contrary to what argumentative remainers keep saying.

You can keep repeating that they did not as much as you like, but that does not make you right, and I aill keep reminding you of this.
You did misunderstand. You literally typed the following:

Quote:
Again, you cannot have a customs union AND negotiate trade deals. If we cannot do trade deals, it is not Brexit, and not what the majority voted for.
Given your lack of understanding on this matter it’s unsurprising that you persist with further falsehoods. It’s all about ideology for you, which is fine, but it’s dangerous for you to dabble in half baked thoughts which you present as facts.

denphone 07-04-2019 19:56
Re: Brexit
 
Some thoughts here from a very strong Brexiteer.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...d-think-again/

OLD BOY 07-04-2019 19:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35990387)
You did misunderstand. You literally typed the following:



Given your lack of understanding on this matter it’s unsurprising that you persist with further falsehoods. It’s all about ideology for you, which is fine, but it’s dangerous for you to dabble in half baked thoughts which you present as facts.
Er, what? Do you really believe that you can negotiate trade deals while belonging to a customs union? Would you mind explaining that?

This is not ideology, it's the economic case for Brexit.

jfman 07-04-2019 20:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35990392)
Er, what? Do you really believe that you can negotiate trade deals while belonging to a customs union? Would you mind explaining that?

This is not ideology, it's the economic case for Brexit.
You’re contradicting yourself again.

Quote:
I have not misunderstood at all. I fully appreciate that the proposed customs arrangements would still allow us to do trade deals on services,
Which is it?

We all know there’s no economic case for Brexit. Even Mogg says it could be 50 years before we see any benefit. (Channel 4)

Hugh 07-04-2019 20:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35990386)
Different sort of advertising. Ads on products to be chosen form a wide range is very different from ads based upon "political" opinions and principles. Still doesn't mean that viewpoint shouldn't be allowed because of who funded it.
Why hide where it’s being funded from?

1andrew1 07-04-2019 20:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35990400)
Why hide where it’s being funded from?
Where could that be?


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