Cable Forum - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I think its safe to say they must be relying on the "lawful use of the work" option. I'm not sure that being in breach of the rest of the copyright act would prevent the use of this exception (I'm getting out of my depth there though). However, if the use is not lawful under say RIPA, then yes 28A becomes void.

So 3 reasons why Section 28A will not save them.

Also, here is the problem with the implied licence argument:

Quote:

An implied licence to use a copyright work might arise when there is nothing in writing granting you a licence and you have not even agreed a licence verbally with the copyright owner. In both of those cases you have an explicit licence, although where there is nothing in writing there may, of course, be a disagreement later on about whether there is a licence. It is always better to ensure that any agreement about a licence is recorded in some way.

You will only be able to argue that you have an implied licence where all the circumstances suggest that the copyright owner expected you to use his or her copyright material in the way you are going to use it, even though this was never discussed and has not been written down anywhere.

Examples where this might be the case are:

* Where a copyright work has been commissioned and the commissioning contract does not deal with copyright,

* Where you want to use some material you have downloaded from the Internet and the copyright notice on the website does not say what you may and may not do with it. You could therefore argue that the circumstances suggest there is an implied licence to do this. Whether any particular material might be covered by an implied licence is something you will have to judge from the website you found it on, but you cannot argue that you have an implied licence where the material was on the Internet illegally in the first place of course.

( From http://tinyurl.com/yr5bkc )

Plenty of websites have explicit copyright licences and therefore an implied licence cannot exist.

pseudonym

29-07-2008 11:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34610315)

At the risk of repeating myself (I've asked this before but it's still relevent and still unanswered)

If ISPs want to profile their customers' data and they are so sure that customers are happy to allow this in return for targetted adverts, why not release Webwise as a browser add-on and allow people to download it.

Instead of installing a Webwise proxy in an ISP (and paying the ISP), they could simply set up a webwise proxy server on the internet, register a suitable domain name eg "MoreRelevantAdverts.com" and inform customers how to set up a proxy in the browsers they (claim) to support - port 666 might be a good choice ;)

Dephormation

29-07-2008 11:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34610426)

Also, here is the problem with the implied licence argument:

Quote:

you have an implied licence where all the circumstances suggest that the copyright owner expected you to use his or her copyright material in the way you are going to use it

Plenty of websites have explicit copyright licences and therefore an implied licence cannot exist.

Even if there is no detailed copyright licence, or even no copyright notice at all (because copyright is assumed to exist by default), is it reasonable to assume that copyright holders will welcome their content being used to promote their competitors, enrich Kent Erdfsfd, and enrich Internet Service Providers?

I doubt it.

I'm glad I'm not paying BT's lawyers. I'd want all my money back. (Solicitors Complaints Bureau might be able to help BT).

Pete

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34610437)

Brilliant. Given BT's Market Research its a surefire winner.

I'm starting to think Kent's a genius (bet you never thought I'd say that! for avoidance of any doubt it is indeed sarcasm). No doubt it gets quoted on their blog in 15 mins "'Kent's a genius' says harshest critic".

He's got BT to pay for his Market Research and product development/testing, yet all he has to do is advertise some proxy settings, and there will be a stampede of customers who want relevant ads.

Then he can cut BT adrift.

And there was I thinking it was BT who'd want to cut Phorm adrift. :doh:

No wonder Ian Livingston was so heistant to discuss Phorm. He must be very worried about Phorm cutting him out of the action.

Is it too late to buy Phorm shares?

Tharrick

29-07-2008 12:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

It it too late to buy Phorm shares?

As our friend HamsterWheel would remind you, it's never too late to buy Phorm shares :P

Bob W

29-07-2008 13:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter N (Post 34610323)

When BT Webwise is off you won't receive warnings before reaching fraudulent websites. BT Webwise will not scan or collect any data from the web pages that you visit to see if there are better adverts to show you; no data, in fact, will be analysed, stored or passed to Phorm or any other partner if you are switched off.[/I]

What that does not specifically state, is whether the data still passes through the intercept, provided by Phorm and sited in BT's racks. As Phorm 'gift' the hardware to BT(Retail), they can quite truthfully say that the data is not 'passed to Phorm or any other partner'. I can't see how they can manage to bypass the intercept without the facility to allocate IPs and reroute subscribers who don't opt-in, based on their IP address, but I'm not an IT expert or a BT executive.:confused:

phormwatch

29-07-2008 13:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I've converted the Phorm Flyer into text, which can be used to cut and paste into Forums, etc.

Admin Edit (Chris T): Link removed at poster's request

I've posted it around a couple of Forums already which didn't seem to have a webwise topic...

pseudonym

29-07-2008 13:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34610448)

As our friend HamsterWheel would remind you, it's never too late to buy Phorm shares :P

The smart money would be buying shares in ISPs and SSL certification authorities, because if phorming isn't outlawed, the only way e-commerce sites will be able to protect their business interests is to go https only or buy an ISP. In fact, if it is OK for an ISP to tamper with and profile their customer's communications then owning an ISP would give a suitable business a huge edge over their competitors.

HamsterWheel

29-07-2008 14:18

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34610448)

As our friend HamsterWheel would remind you, it's never too late to buy Phorm shares :P

And up they go :D

Tharrick

29-07-2008 14:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Oh yeah, shooting up. After all, 875 is much much more than 3580 :P

Raistlin

29-07-2008 14:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Once more.....a reminder that share prices, and fluctuations therein, are not relevant to the topic of the implementation of Phorm/Webwise, their effects on affected customers, and the debates for/against the technology.

Rchivist

29-07-2008 14:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob W (Post 34610472)

I've seen quite a few different versions of this BT statement, and never yet seen a form of words that unambiguously indicates that a not-opted-in customer who wants nothing to do with Webwise, will have their traffic completely ignored by the newly installed DPI kit, and neither intercepted, nor inspected by the newly installed DPI kit.

In otherwords- for their traffic to be simply "conducted" by the conduit of BT Retail, to it's destination with no other interference whatsover except what is required for the purpose of technically managing the service (and NOT selling adverts).

Nor have I seen any explanation of how their cookie free system will work.

As always - its what they don't say that counts.

Once I've had the time to read it through properly and do the necessary copying, cutting and pasting when the hard copy arrives, Ill give an account of what the BT Retail legal counsel's letter to me DIDN'T say.

Tharrick

29-07-2008 14:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Apologies, Rob - I think I missed the decision to not discuss the share prices in the many many posts since I went away.
I've added him to my ignore list now.

AlexanderHanff

29-07-2008 15:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16528

Trouble in Canada for Phorm too.

Alexander Hanff

Peter N

29-07-2008 16:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rryles (Post 34610387)

Section 28A of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 was added in 2003 by Statutory Instrument 2498 as follows:

From here: http://tinyurl.com/58cwyw

I leave the interpretation to the reader :angel:

Interesting that a "computer program" is treated differently. You may need to establish what that two word phrase actually covers as it's arguable that HTML is a high-level computer language and therefore any webpage is a computer program.

On that basis, Phorm's arguments about textual content being freely available are meaningless as the source-code has to be disassembled in order to access the text. I believe that this is illegal without resorting to copyright law and civil courts.

How does the law differ if that is the case and should you be looking at the problem from a different angle - e.g. program hacking rather than a copyright breach based purely on the textual content of the webpage?

Dephormation

29-07-2008 17:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

First cut Wide Open West htaccess block directives on BadPhorm.

If anyone is willing/able to spot holes I'd be most grateful.

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