Cable Forum - Britain outside the EU

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- - Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

mrmistoffelees

13-06-2021 12:07

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36082762)

I don't believe that the UK is wanting to pull out of the Protocol, we are just asking for some common sense on its interpretation.

If this is the kind of inflexibility we can expect from the EU, maybe we should think seriously whether this deal with the EU is actually worth it. Many of us saw this coming but we hoped that the EU would demonstrate some intelligence in dealing with the practical issues arising from the new arrangements.

So the U.K. agreed to a legally binding treaty but now we want them to make concessions to us because we’re finding it a bit difficult?

I don’t think it’s the EU that needs to demonstrate its intelligence

1andrew1

13-06-2021 12:52

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082765)

I think BoJo only wants to implement the protocol he signed in a limited and specific way. :D

Brexit negotiations will never end. Boris Johnson needs to establish trust with the EU. Hic current boud-mouthing and the threats perpetuated by him and David Frost are proving ineffective. They might work inside the priviliged walls of Eton or the House of Commons but not outside it.

Building strong relationships and trust is key. Unfortunately for BoJo, the G7 summit which could have been a great British triumph and advert for the country has shone a spotlight upon its weaknesses. A change is needed in the UK's approach.

Carth

13-06-2021 13:43

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082765)

I rather think it's the EU that are finding it difficult, it does sound 'off' when a trade bloc are trying to prevent a UK product from being sold in the UK.

Throw as much legal jargon as you like at it, but the bottom line is the UK should be able to sell it's own products within it's borders :p:

Sephiroth

13-06-2021 13:53

Re: Britain outside the EU

I wish the Remainers would agree with Carth - namely that there should be no impediment to selling UK goods within the UK under our agreement with the EU.

Even if it is careless that Johnson et al thought the EU would implement the agreement in the way I've just mentioned, the Remainers should wish for this rather than go on about following the agreement to the letter while the EU tries to break up the Union.

The Remainers won't admit that this is an unsaid goal of the EU - to punish the UK as best they can. "Oh", I hear the Remainers say, "where is the link to a stated EU goal to that effect?". The realms of the bleedin' obvious need no published statement.

If you need evidence, read today's papers and watch the BBC (yes BBC), reporting that Macron does not consider NI to be part of the UK. What do the Remainers say about that? Paywall link: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...aign=DM1441753

Quote:

Boris Johnson was left infuriated on Saturday when Emmanuel Macron suggested in head-to-head G7 summit talks that Northern Ireland was not part of the UK.

The Prime Minister attempted to explain his frustration with the Northern Ireland Protocol by asking Mr Macron what he would do if sausages from Toulouse could not be moved to Paris, according to a UK government source.

The French president was said to have retorted by arguing that the comparison did not work because Paris and Toulouse were both part of the same country, incorrectly suggesting Northern Ireland is not within the UK.

Mr Johnson expressed bemusement at the remark to aides straight after the meeting and later hinted at the comment when telling Sky News that some leaders needed to get it “into their heads” that the UK was a “single country”.

1andrew1

13-06-2021 14:14

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082782)

I wish the Remainers would agree with Carth..

You mean with this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36082379)

I'm all for owning it, it's easy . . just don't send any chilled meat to anyone in the EU . . and if that includes Northern Ireland (who are NOT in the EU) then I'm fine with that.

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082782)

Obviously, no one is happy about the situation. I think that you're now realising what others have known for some time - that your Party's Prime Minister signed an imperfect deal. Dreaming about fantasy solutions or slagging off the other side won't solve it. Trust and talk will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082782)

Even if it is careless that Johnson et al thought the EU would implement the agreement in the way I've just mentioned, the Remainers should wish for this rather than go on about following the agreement to the letter while the EU tries to break up the Union.

The Remainers won't admit that this is an unsaid goal of the EU - to punish the UK as best they can. "Oh", I hear the Remainers say, "where is the link to a stated EU goal to that effect?". The realms of the bleedin' obvious need no published statement.

There's no evidence of punishing the UK, that's just playing the victim mode and not an approach a country like the UK historically takes. It's disappointing you want to pull the UK down to such a level.

mrmistoffelees

13-06-2021 14:31

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36082780)

They can, but it changes when one of those countries in effect in the EU for trade

You know, the changes we agreed to???

Carth

13-06-2021 14:47

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082783)

You mean with this?

Originally Posted by Carth
I'm all for owning it, it's easy . . just don't send any chilled meat to anyone in the EU . . and if that includes Northern Ireland (who are NOT in the EU) then I'm fine with that.

Heck yeah, see how long it takes for N.I. to kick off . . . especially when they suddenly can't 'export' to us (as part of the solution) ;)

Taf	13-06-2021 14:54

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082530)

As I and others said at the time, this would have given us more chance to strike a better deal.

The EU was not in negotiating mode from the start. They expected the UK to capitulate to all the EU demands. This was highlighted many, many times by politicians of all flavours from within the EU. Remember that the EU is a Legal Body not a Federal Union as yet. Lawyers in the background run it most of the time, supported by translators who have to be meticulous at all times.

mrmistoffelees

13-06-2021 15:02

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 36082790)

Indeed if only we as a country could of somehow been aware of such behaviour at the time. If only we could of had some insider knowledge as to how the EU can operate.

So is it ignorance or stupidity the U.K. government is culpable of ?

Carth

13-06-2021 16:08

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082793)

Many of us were aware of their behaviour and voted accordingly, the ignorance and/or stupidity are possibly confined to those who weren't . . and didn't ;) :p:

OLD BOY

13-06-2021 16:09

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082765)

No, that’s not what I’m saying. As with everything, the devil is in the detail and we have been attempting to get the EU to understand the practical problems that have been thrown up by the way in which the EU is interpreting the Protocol. We have put forward many ideas, including trusted trader schemes, which have been shown to work effectively, but the EU is having none of it.

They are being awkward, plain and simple.

mrmistoffelees

13-06-2021 16:21

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36082797)

So we agreed to something we didn’t fully understand? Else surely the government would have known that this would occur?

The EU are playing to the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

Sephiroth

13-06-2021 16:37

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082800)

So we agreed to something we didn’t fully understand? Else surely the government would have known that this would occur?

The EU are playing to the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

And you are defending that - Jeez. They should be more reasonable given the difficulties the "letter" is causing in NI.

OLD BOY

13-06-2021 17:11

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082800)

So we agreed to something we didn’t fully understand? Else surely the government would have known that this would occur?

The EU are playing to the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

No, I didn’t say that. I said that the problem was with the way the EU was interpreting the Protocol, not the Protocol itself.

Trust you to keep batting for the other side. Macron has said: “Nothing is negotiable. Everything is applicable.”

In other words, his mind is made up and if the Northern Irish people (whom he does not regard as U.K. citizens!) suffer food shortages as a result of the EU interpretation of the Protocol, he doesn’t give two hoots.

pip08456

13-06-2021 17:22

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36082800)

So we agreed to something we didn’t fully understand? Else surely the government would have known that this would occur?

The EU are playing to the letter of the law, nothing more, nothing less.

The problem is it is not the letter of the law.

Quote:

It is common for trade agreements to contain provisions enabling either party to take unilateral action if the implementation of the agreement gives rise to negative consequences. In the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland, these measures are set out under Article 16.

Such ‘safeguards’ as those in the Protocol are not commonly used, but are included as a protective measure to give both parties a formal recourse of action should the agreement entail any unintended outcomes that present significant challenges in either place.

Article 16 provides both the UK and the EU with a unilateral power to take action should the application of the Protocol give rise to ‘serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade.’

Both parties are restricted in the action they can take to address any such issues. It must be limited to the scope of where the problems exist (i.e. a response cannot be taken that will alter the application of the Protocol in any unrelated respect) and there is a process in place which means action cannot happen on a whim or go unchecked.

Article 16 does not provide any detail on what constitutes a ‘serious’ impact or what is meant by ‘diversion of trade’. What causes a serious impact in one place might not in another, so this ambiguity allows for interpretation at a later point.

Link

There cannot be "letter of the law" where ambiguity exists.

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