Re: Brexit
 

Yes, the country that supplies cars, electronics and whatever else to Europe. The UK on the other hand supplies . . . well, not much really

Re: Brexit
 

Fruit & veg.


Oh, hang on a minute

Re: Brexit
 

sammy wilson confirmed on sky news dup voting against deal

Re: Brexit
 

Not a surprise Dave.

Re: Brexit
 

no it just a matter how big defeat for deal will be Den then no deal voted down tomorrow

Re: Brexit
 

In which case, either the 'no deal' option becomes law (legislation is already in place for us to leave on 29 March) or it's a General Election.

Contrary to what some think, the General Election is not such a bad idea. Parliament gets dissolved, so no more House of Commons nonsense, and Theresa May goes into the election with a mandate to deliver Brexit on a no deal basis. That will put Labour on the defensive. Most people believe that Labour is all over the place on this subject and blame Labour for being obstructive, coupled with which Jeremy Corbyn has lost his popularity and considered a dead duck, even by Labour supporters.

What could go wrong for Theresa? :erm:

Re: Brexit
 

You cannot transpose single subject Referendum with a General Election manifesto. They serve two radically different purposes. One presents a single issue and the other a spectrum of policy proposals.

You just sound desperate to suggest this ..

Re: Brexit
 

Bizarrely a Kantar/TNS poll gave the Tories a 10 point lead this week, but a general election would still be a very risky strategy. Dissolving parliament now would ensure a No Deal outcome because there would not be a new parliament in place before 29 March. There is a bit of a convention around governments (which remain in power during an election campaign) doing anything significant to the country while an election is in the offing. I’d say watching the UK leave the EU with no transition arrangements in place, and the attendant likelihood of urgent action being required, would qualify as significant. It would be constitutionally dodgy and it could well be electorally disastrous.*

However, if an extension is granted I wouldn’t rule out a snap election following shortly afterwards to try to break the deadlock. The parliamentary maths are clearly impossible as things stand, there’s no obvious way of getting any deal through parliament this month or next, and if it’s not done and dusted by May, by law we will have to hold European elections, which Nigel Farage would doubtless win by a country mile, to the embarrassment of both main parties and the EU, for whom symbols like the parliament are important and for whom the presence of Farage and his type are an insult.

*(edit) also, the last person who tried sending MPs home and governing without them because he didn’t like what he was being told was Charles I, and we know how that worked out for him.

Re: Brexit
 

Theresa May said in parliament to answer to Yvette Cooper she bring in legislation to change law if no deal voted down

Re: Brexit
 

I am certainly desperate for the Conservatives to get a good majority so that we can get a government that can govern.

Jeremy is a dead man walking now, so there’s a better prospect this time round that we will get a Conservative majority.

Re: Brexit
 

That worked so well last time she tried that...

Re: Brexit
 

Tamara Cohen
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Sky News prediction - PM will lose by more than 100 votes

345 MPs have indicated they will vote against

220 MPs for

72 MPs unknown

Thanks to @breeallegretti @katewilsea who called it right on MV1

Re: Brexit
 

It will be interesting to see if she will follow that through. I think it would be a mistake to rule out no deal. What else is there that would not infuriate the voters?

---------- Post added at 18:45 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

When Jeremy was popular. Look at him now.

Re: Brexit
 

Pound down as Brexit vote hopes fall away

https://news.sky.com/story/pound-dow...edium=referral

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, a poll and a short extension to Brexit to allow the legislation to go through is now the most plausible solution.

Re: Brexit
 

Rumor is David Davies might vote for the deal. The defeat might not be as bad as expected? If most of the Tories are united then May could call an election with 'Labour blocking Brexit'....

Re: Brexit
 

Yep 20 plus points ahead in the opinion polls heading for a big landslide but of course it never turns out that way as you can go back to Winston Churchill who was extremely popular as a war leader yet was voted out of office come General election time.

Re: Brexit
 

The EU is also agreeing a free trade deal with Vietnam, so how is size of economy relevant?

Re: Brexit
 

Actually if my memory serves me right he was very unpopular then as there was a huge media onslaught right up to the general election on him where of course the general election result never worked out as many thought it would.

Re: Brexit
 

mp's voting now

Re: Brexit
 

:confused:

How is the size of the economy not relevant in a trade deal?

Re: Brexit
 

sky just said David Davis voted for deal



Hannah Bardell
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I can safely say the no lobby is absolutely rammed.... the PM is about to face another huge defeat. #Brexit #BrexitShambles

Re: Brexit
 

Ayes (for the deal)242

Noes (against the deal) 391

Re: Brexit
 

Vote on May's deal

242 Ayes 391 Noes

The noes have it.

Re: Brexit
 

for 242

no 391

majority 149

Re: Brexit
 

Theresa May defeated by 149 votes.

Re: Brexit
 

vote tomorrow for no deal

Re: Brexit
 

If no deal loses, vote for extension on Thursday

Re: Brexit
 

What's to stop the EU from exercising what would be a masterstoke for them- Refuse to grant an extension.
Parliament would then be forced to revoke A50 as a no deal brexit option will be removed tomorrow........

Maybe that was Mrs May's plan all along.

Re: Brexit
 

I have no patience for the ERG at all. Cowards.

The truth is any deal will require concessions and pain. They went though the referendum and spend the last three years since talking up a Brexit that was never on the table. German car manufactures will force a great deal for us, we have all the cards, we'll replicate the trade deals the EU has easily and we'll have more money from day one.

They were never going to vote for any deal because they don't want to get their hands dirty. I think secretly they want this deal to pass but they wanted it to pass without their votes so they can cry treachery and claim their utopia was thwarted by Parliament.

They would rather risk their entire project than have to have any responsibility for it. If Brexit doesn't happen then Leavers can they can blame Remainers but they can also blame each ERG member who, when it was within their grasp, voted No.

Re: Brexit
 

So true. These cowards, No Deal chancers, may just have voted away their Brexit. I hope so ..

Remain MP's voted for May's Brexit yet these fools, who have bleated for years about leaving the EU, voted against leaving. History will judge the Tories harshly and will reserve specific ridicule for the ERG.

Re: Brexit
 

Majority voted to leave and leave we should if no deal is the only option left then that is what we should go for.

Re: Brexit
 

But it isn’t the only option left.

If it was the only option left, they wouldn’t be having a vote tomorrow- it would just happen.

Re: Brexit
 

Well what option is there? TM deal got voted down holding and extension will gain what? They've already said have the EU there is not more to talk about

Re: Brexit
 

If the EU and the Remain side hadn't been so persistently obstructive, what is in the withdrawal agreement could've be set up a year earlier. There is nothing that is Brexit related in it. It specifies continued freedom of movement and continued following of EU rules. At least that would've given more time to prepare.

Re: Brexit
 

it not only option and it be voted down tomorrow by parliament

Re: Brexit
 

Tomorrow’s vote is indicative. Even if they indicate they don’t want no deal, no deal can still happen unless the EU withdrawal Act is at least partially repealed. Repeal is not on the agenda tomorrow.

Re: Brexit
 

But delay is, because if they vote against no deal tomorrow, there will be a vote on Thursday about delaying Brexit, and then there are a number of possible options.

From the BBC

Re: Brexit
 

I know - I’m answering the narrow point that seems to have confused some people. No Deal will not be ruled out tomorrow.

Re: Brexit
 

What other option is there that delivers on the result of the referendum, Hugh? I haven’t heard of one yet.

Re: Brexit
 

May deal comes back a third time I guess

Re: Brexit
 

Well, exactly. It’s either Theresa May’s deal or no deal in the end. There’s nowhere else to go and time has almost run out.

Re: Brexit
 

Jezza has a few ideas. They may align to your notions of Brexit. Or they may not.

Re: Brexit
 

They clearly do not as his proposal would not amount to leaving the EU. How would we be able to make trade deals under his proposition?

Re: Brexit
 

They would amount to leaving the EU, that's not in dispute. But his ideas about a future relationship with the EU would differ from yours.

---------- Post added at 23:08 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

Totally agree. If they had any integrity, they would be picking up the baton and challenging May long ago.

Re: Brexit
 

But Andrew, it will not deliver on the result of the referendum. The electorate know that and will not be fooled.

Re: Brexit
 

The referendum was binary. Everyone has their own interpretation of this. You are not wrong in yours and neither is Jezza in his.

Re: Brexit
 

:confused: Remain MPs voted against the "deal".


Brexit MPs voted against it, because of the non-temporary nature of the backstop.

Re: Brexit
 

A backdrop by its nature can never be temporary. ERG MPs for reasons best known to themselves gambled a definite Brexit for the unknown. Shows how irrational they are.

Re: Brexit
 

We were promised we could make our own trade deals. Corbyn's solution doesn't deliver on that and will leave us in a worse position than we are now, taking orders from Brussels.

Come on, Andrew, I'm sure you know the advantages Brexiteers see in leaving and I repeat, Labour's vision simply does not deliver.

Dress it up as you want. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a bloody pig!

Re: Brexit
 

Remain MPs voted against it. How is that supposedly rational, unless they are determined to prevent Brexit? They are determined to overturn the democratic vote.


ERG would've have voted for it, if the backstop had a defined end-date, rather than continue with the nonsense of it ending only if the EU says so.

Re: Brexit
 

If it has a date, it's not a backstop. That's just not cricket. :D

The backstop is dependent on a deal being reached with the UK, not one side or the other calling it off. As the EU has the most trade deals of any trading bloc and the UK is a close and rich partner with close ties, a deal would invariably happen.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:48 ----------

Every MP should follow their conscience. If they believe that a vote for Brexit will close factories and offices and leave their constituents worse off, then I am sure you will understand that it is rational for them to vote against it.

Re: Brexit
 

What in the heck is this nonsense ?

Are you forgetting that a lot more Remainer MPs rejected this crap deal??

The ERG are certainly not cowards. They are standing tall, voting against something which does not deliver on the referendum result, it was an absolute shoddy deal.

Well done on them for voting against an absolutely shit deal.

Absolute rubbish, there was no such thing as voting for a deal before and during the referendum.

More rubbish - We can blame Remainers anyway - Brexit won and was chosen by a democratic decision, thwarted by a Remainer Prime Minister and Remainer driven Parliament. I've told you before this would have been different if a Brexiteer was in the driving seat, we'd have stood up to those corrupted fools in the EU, but oh no, we have to stay in a disgusting, corrupted union and pay a con job membership fee and for what?...

..Paltry benefits, when we can get them anyway, living by self determination, that is my right as a citizen to live in a truly independent country, instead we're tethered to a corrupted and cancerous EU.

---------- Post added at 00:03 ---------- Previous post was at 00:00 ----------

No factories or offices are closing, more negative Remainer fantansy crap.

Re: Brexit
 

We were promised lots of contradictory things and doubtless some people still believe some of it to this day.

I know that the Brexiter Boris Johnson said "F--ck business" but the business fundamentals remain: If you're negotiating with large countries like China and India, being a 65m country is not an advantage compared to being a 500m person trading bloc. So there is no Brexy bonus here, Old Boy.

By not being in a trading bloc, we will have to be a rule-taker. It's all a compromise. You can either be in the club and influence the rules as we have done so on many occasions, or you can sit outside them and accept them. Even then, you can't pick and choose the particular trading bloc's rules you accept as trade is done largely with the countries closest to you, your options are limited. The closest rules a country has to others, the cheaper that goods and services can be provided.

Re: Brexit
 

Please re-read my post Mick, nowhere in it do I say they are.

Re: Brexit
 

Obviously Remainers largely voted against it. They don’t want Brexit to happen.

I am calling the ERG cowards because they want it to happen but don’t want any drawbacks to leaving on their hands and want to blame everyone else if Brexit doesn’t live up to their plan.

Nothing is ever their fault. They never seem to take any responsibility. It doesn’t matter what happened or what will happen it will never, ever, be down to them. That’s why they’re cowards.

---------- Post added at 07:18 ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 ----------

Remainers were always going to get blamed anyway. Search my posts after the result and I said when we don’t get the brilliant outcomes the Leave campaign ‘suggested’ that they’ll blame Remainers. The people who ran the campaign don’t have responsibility for enacting it and spent three years running away from it.

May had the task of actually doing it.

Re: Brexit
 

Spot on.

Re: Brexit
 

Not sure May was ever truly a Remainer, just using Brexit to cover her xenophobia and cling on to her premiership.

Re: Brexit
 

Would love to know of an example where the Remain side has done anything to help Brexit and reach an acceptable deal with the EU. They put the EU in driving seat, safe in knowledge they will get whatever they ask for. If the mantra of "No Deal is better than a Bad Deal" had been stuck to, the EU would've had to be more amenable. No Deal isn't good for the EU either.


There is talk of delaying things for just 2 months. That is the margin by which the Remain have stalled everything. Without them there wouldn't need to be a possibility of any delay. Everything would've been in place long before now.

Re: Brexit
 

Why would the remain side do anything to facilitate something they so vehemently disagree with?

Perhaps if May had reached out for cross party talks a few months earlier she could of cobbled together something that got a deal through (although i doubt it)

Saying there will be a delay of a couple of months is just daft, we're in deep doo doo and no one has an idea on how to navigate a course through it.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly as it was the Brexit side who won the referendum so its up to them to facilitate Brexit and our withdrawal from the EU which in these past near on three years they have up to now made a complete omnishambles of.

Re: Brexit
 

Confucius had a saying:- 'You can't polish a t*rd'.
RIP Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Unfortunately I don't think it's going to be that easy,

Re: Brexit
 

Revoking article 50 ? easy peasy ! But admittedly our Govt. struggle to do anything.....

Re: Brexit
 

The government has published its 'no deal' tariff plan I see - https://www.ft.com/content/d05189c8-...5-23d669740bfb
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47551266

It looks like most products will be tariff free, only meat, dairy, cars, ceramics and fuels will attract significant tariffs which is good news for those industries though of course not for consumers who buy Irish beef and German cars for example. It looks like a temporary initiative for a year in the first instance.

I see also, there is a plan for no checks and customs declarations at the Irish border planned for a period of 12 months.

So, rolling these two together, we will charge tariffs on some imports from the EU unless they come across the Irish border where they can just go through. You could see a lot of EU shipments coming in to the Port of Dublin and then across the border.

Re: Brexit
 

Because that was the democratic decision of the electorate and both main political parties gave a manifesto pledge to implement it.

Maybe they are just not democrats.

Re: Brexit
 

Ummm no, if 17.4 million people decided to jump off a cliff would you follow them? I highly doubt it.

You seem to have a very skewed vision on what democracy is. Democracy by it's very nature is open to challenge and/or change. Has anything illegal been done in this process by the remain camp? I haven't seen anything so far?

Re: Brexit
 

Loved a guy on Five Live this morning. He thought we could tell the EU to 'do one' on account of we have rabbits in the fields and can grow our own potatoes ! Bit of limited diet ! :D What next ? mud houses and horse drawn transport ...

Re: Brexit
 

Very limited especially as 95% of the population wouldn't have a clue how to catch a rabbit (myself included)

So that would leave the majority with just potatoes then.....

Re: Brexit
 

Problem with a rabbit only diet is it can lead to malnutrition because the meat is so lean it's missing fat and other nutrients. Otherwise I applaud his enthusiasm..But even during WW2 we couldn't grow enough to feed the population which was a lot lower than it is now and we required help from other countries in the commonwealth. We will still need to import some foods.

Re: Brexit
 

norman smith
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Brace yourself...but I'm told Meaningful Vote 3 has not been taken of the table.

Re: Brexit
 

Obviously they aren't 'meaningful' votes if they don't accept the result !

Re: Brexit
 

Maybe we can strike some deals with Russia . . remember them?
The country that everyone is sanctioning, apparently.

Germany are doing quite well from a country that 'is constantly trying to undermine the west by nefarious means' . . sanctions my rear end :p:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekea...n-russian-gas/

https://www.dw.com/en/siemens-to-hik...dal/a-47548791

https://financialobserver.eu/cse-and...ing-in-russia/

Putin laughing his socks off I'd guess ;)

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

written with a straight face no doubt :D

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Unions are going to love that

Re: Brexit
 

And I have repeatedly told you that how the hell can Brexiteers enact it when they were not in government or steering the ship ???

It's not rocket science.

This is a Remainer led farce because there is Remainers at the helm.

May did not have the task of actually doing it at all either, she's so incredibly weak and let the EU and Remainers in her inner circle completely walk all over her, but that appears to have been her intention all along, hence why I say, it should have been a Brexiteer in the Captains chair!!!

Re: Brexit
 

The thought occurs that they did have a chance to be in charge when Cameron ran away..Why didn't they?

Re: Brexit
 

Because there is that little thing called a Leadership bid, that saw Theresa May win. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

No it is not exactly at all - How can they facilitate it when they are not in charge... ???

Give them the chance to be in charge and it would be a total different story, we've been completely bowled over by the EU with Remainers sabotaging negotiations, revealing our hand so publicly, demanding no deal removed from the table former MPs and Prime Ministers, who are staunch Remainers meeting with Michel Barnier. You got war monger Tony Blair running around in the background too.

Re: Brexit
 

But they had a chance to try to take charge when there was the Conservative leadership contest but the Brexiteer candidates were more interested in warring among themselves for their own personal political benefits rather then uniting to make sure they had a strong Brexiteer candidate in the leadership contest where then they could possibly win and take charge of events.

Re: Brexit
 

Because they lost the Referendum to stay, so democracy has to prevail but you're right, they didn't have to and they quite clearly have done everything to thwart the result and we are, where we are...

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

That's natural and common in any leadership bid.

Re: Brexit
 

And nothing has changed since as you can see for yourself..

Re: Brexit
 

Ain't that the truth.

Re: Brexit
 

Had the result been the other way but by the same margin, Do you not think it would be roles reversed here ? I would understand completely those who want to leave doing everything could to effect change where possible.

Re: Brexit
 

Carry on Leaving aka keep on voting till they get the "right" result?

---------- Post added at 13:23 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

Yes, agreed, and Nigel Farage said this would be the case.
It makes sense. If you lose 70-30 you've little chance of changing people's opinions but at 52-48 you do.

Re: Brexit
 

h/t @richard_littler

Re: Brexit
 

Didn't a couple of other countries vote to leave and then, after a second referendum, decide to stay?

Following the result, maybe the electorate in these countries foresaw the problems that we are now having whilst attempting to leave and decided it wasn't worth it when it came to the second referendum??

Re: Brexit
 

No country had ever held a referendum on leaving the EU before the UK in 2016.

A few countries have held referendums on EU treaties, where their constitutions required it (Ireland, for example). On several occasions a ‘no’ vote in a referendum has resulted in cosmetic changes to the proposed treaty followed by a second referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

Ok, thanks.

Going back to an earlier post you made, if a general election is called, the PM is still the PM until she is re-elected or someone else wins. Do you know the position of MP's during the election period? I ask because an MP once said at a meeting that he was the MP for X area and was told off because, during an election, he was simply a prospective parliamentary candidate along with all the others standing for election. Does this mean that they are no longer MP's as soon as an election is called ie Parliament is dissolved?

If so, it seems odd that the system that we have is a PM with no MP's and no Parliament!

It's just been on the news that the three police forces in Yorkshire have now cancelled all leave for their staff over the Brexit period. They must be forecasting civil disobedience, which I think could well happen from either side depending on the outcome of Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

When exactly is the brexit period ? some are after an extension of artical 50

Re: Brexit
 

True, they did also say that they are keeping things under review as development take place.

Re: Brexit
 

It's hard to know what to plan for on the 29 march
option 1 celebration party
option 2 peoples revolt

Re: Brexit
 

There is basically a caretaker government in place to deal with essential stuff, but otherwise we have no Government or MPs during elections.

Re: Brexit
 

I like to see what the press is reporting on Brexit and came across a gem in the Mail. Apparently, the 100% tariff on fish from the EU will double the retail price of fish. Totally wrong (project fear perhaps?) it would double the imported price, not retail.

The same error was repeated in both a picture and in the text. If we rely on the media to get our facts, what hope do we have when articles are so badly wrong?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-Britain.html

Re: Brexit
 

The only tariff mrntioned is on "protected fish and seafood products (100 per cent)". This does not mean all fish imports.

Re: Brexit
 

I like the way they keep saying brand new cars imported from Europe will cost an extra 10% . . . leave em in the showroom, watch what happens to the price then :D

Re: Brexit
 

Wouldn't the be the same?

Just a group of people muttering unhappily to themselves about how the world has gone to the dogs? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Not true.

The government is still the government because it is appointed by the Queen, not by parliament or by the electorate.

When a general election is to be held, the Prime Minister asks the Queen to dissolve parliament. The Queen does so. From that point on, there are no MPs. There are still government ministers. By convention they don’t do anything radical during the election period but they still hold office and they continue to do so unless and until the Prime Minister resigns.

After an election’s results are known, the PM will either continue in post, or else (s)he will go to Buckingham Palace, tell the Queen that (s)he can no longer form a government likely to enjoy the confidence of the House of Commons, and advise the Queen which member of the House of Commons most likely will have the confidence of the House. The Prime Minister then resigns, and the person they have advised the Queen should appoint is summoned to the Palace and invited to form a government.

In our system, all of that normally happens within hours of an election result being known but in 2010, while the Coalition was being formed, it took several days.

To return to the main point however. The government continues to exist and has full executive power during an election campaign.

Re: Brexit
 

I wonder if that's what he voted for or if that's the cake and eat it situation bozo promised us, still at least we'll be free...

Rabbit is also easy to spoil as although they're easy to skin it's easy to nick their spleen iirc and spill the contents over the meat and it's not just can lead to malnutrition, you eat nothing but rabbit for three months and you'll be dead.

Not sure how I'd feel if I were a farmer, on the one hand they've got this new rabbit potato combo revenue stream but on the other Minford is still espousing that running down farming "like we did coal and steel" is the way of the future, I'm not really sure how being totally dependent on other countries for food is taking back control.

Re: Brexit
 

Good point. I have had a look and haven’t found a harmonised standard for ‘protected fish’. Plenty of different categories under the fish section but not ‘protected’.

Re: Brexit
 

parliament votes to rule out no deal in any circumstance

Malthouse amendment defeated