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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

Hugh 10-06-2021 19:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082499)
His ancestors were from the South...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082500)
... and England. Goes back some way. Indeed, the name "Biden" comes from the English leg.

For example: https://www.chichester.co.uk/news/pe...cestry-3034906
I meant England…

(replying to the 3/8ths comment…)

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

I'm beginning to suspect the Daily Telegraph isn't that keen on the EU (difficult to believe, I know...).

Quote:
The imperial EU is blind to the folly of its unequal Northern Ireland Brexit treaty

The protocol isn’t a just law. It was imposed on the UK by Brussels at the moment of our greatest weakness

Why don’t the European elites ever learn lessons from history? It should be obvious that the Northern Ireland Protocol, signed under duress by the UK
The "moment of our greatest weakness" and "imposed"?

Do they mean "the moment" when a Conservative Government rushed through a Withdrawal Bill with 14 hours debate time, the one where BoJo urged Conservative Eurosceptics to back the deal, saying it made good “on every one of our manifesto commitments”

Even David Davis said
Quote:
the agreement left “issues to deal with” including Northern Ireland, fishing and Gibraltar. He told the Commons: “It’s not over. All will lead to uncomfortable decisions in the near future.”

Davis said one day was not enough time to deal with a 1,200-page treaty and further time must be given to it to enable the UK to develop its strategy.

“The EU will use the treaty to its own advantage … We have to come back to this treaty and look at it in detail at all 1,200 pages so we don’t get into conflict, don’t fall into traps, don’t get into acrimonious disputes with them [the EU],”

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 19:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082503)
I meant England…

(replying to the 3/8ths comment…)

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

I'm beginning to suspect the Daily Telegraph isn't that keen on the EU (difficult to believe, I know...).



The "moment of our greatest weakness" and "imposed"?

Do they mean "the moment" when a Conservative Government rushed through a Withdrawal Bill with 14 hours debate time, the one where BoJo urged Conservative Eurosceptics to back the deal, saying it made good “on every one of our manifesto commitments”

<SNIP>
To provide some balance, the Torygraph article includes this:

Quote:
The EU should have enough self-awareness to understand that the deal it obtained was too good to be true, and that the only way the protocol can survive is if it chooses to exercise maximum flexibility. The UK had no real choice but to sign it: it could either agree to a treaty that essentially handed away parts of Britain’s sovereignty over Northern Ireland, or accept a no-deal Brexit that would have created unnecessary economic damage while still not resolving the Irish situation. The EU wasn’t acting rationally: it was set on kamikaze mode, committed to punishing Britain at any cost.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 20:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082529)
To provide some balance, the Torygraph article includes this:
That additional quote also includes the words "The EU wasn’t acting rationally: it was set on kamikaze mode, committed to punishing Britain at any cost." Not the conventional idea of balance, more like pandering to those Conservatives who think the current government has left us up the creek and equipped us with a butter knife instead of a paddle.

The Telegraph article also omits the fact that the EU offered the UK an extension. As I and others said at the time, this would have given us more chance to strike a better deal.

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 21:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082530)
That additional quote also includes the words "The EU wasn’t acting rationally: it was set on kamikaze mode, committed to punishing Britain at any cost." Not the conventional idea of balance, more like pandering to those Conservatives who think the current government has left us up the creek and equipped us with a butter knife instead of a paddle.

The Telegraph article also omits the fact that the EU offered the UK an extension. As I and others said at the time, this would have given us more chance to strike a better deal.
You don't know the Telegraph, imo. The article isn't a pander - it is written by one of the wing (to which I belong) that bel;ieves that the EU is out to get us.

On the bit I've highlighted, the extension offer would only have prolonged the agony, and we'd have been paying into the EU, which is what they wanted. They are not a reasonable institution.

It is beyond me why Johnson signed up to the Deal.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 22:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082533)
You don't know the Telegraph, imo. The article isn't a pander - it is written by one of the wing (to which I belong) that bel;ieves that the EU is out to get us.

On the bit I've highlighted, the extension offer would only have prolonged the agony, and we'd have been paying into the EU, which is what they wanted. They are not a reasonable institution.

It is beyond me why Johnson signed up to the Deal.
BoJo signed up to the deal as he'd run out of time, making the UK a weaker party in negotiations. Hence it was that deal or break the Good Friday Agreement with no deal which no British Prime Minister would contemplate.

I'm sure the EU's negotiators were more than happy with BoJo's and indeed your own approach in not wanting an extension as it handed them a great deal on a plate. And we're still paying the EU handsomely too.

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 22:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082534)
BoJo signed up to the deal as he'd run out of time, making the UK a weaker party in negotiations. Hence it was that deal or break the Good Friday Agreement with no deal which no British Prime Minister would contemplate.

I'm sure the EU's negotiators were more than happy with BoJo's and indeed your own approach in not wanting an extension as it handed them a great deal on a plate. And we're still paying the EU handsomely too.
An extension would have pushed the current problems down the road. NI would have kicked off anyway because of the simple fact that the British link is diluted, playing into the hands of the perfidious Irish government.

Johnson was stiffed by May and then didn't just walk away from the EU. They are the enemy.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 22:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082535)
An extension would have pushed the current problems down the road. NI would have kicked off anyway because of the simple fact that the British link is diluted, playing into the hands of the perfidious Irish government.

Johnson was stiffed by May and then didn't just walk away from the EU. They are the enemy.
How was BoJo stiffed by May over Ireland?

Unlike countries cited as our enemy* (eg Iran, North Korea, Russia), the EU is our major trading partner and we share a common border with one of their members, Ireland, with regard to ensuring peace in Northern Ireland and many alliances. So whatever you may feel, we need to have a healthy relationship with the EU for the good of the UK.

An extension would have allowed us time to negotiate veterinary equivalence with the EU and we could have made them look unreasonable if they didn't agree to one. Now our PM just looks weak and acts perfidiously. I hope the situation can be salvaged over a few Cornish beers and some great British seafood.

* although I find such descriptions of little value.

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 23:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082539)
How was BoJo stiffed by May over Ireland?

Unlike countries cited as our enemy* (eg Iran, North Korea, Russia), the EU is our major trading partner and we share a common border with one of their members, Ireland, with regard to ensuring peace in Northern Ireland and many alliances. So whatever you may feel, we need to have a healthy relationship with the EU for the good of the UK.

An extension would have allowed us time to negotiate veterinary equivalence with the EU and we could have made them look unreasonable if they didn't agree to one. Now our PM just looks weak and acts perfidiously. I hope the situation can be salvaged over a few Cornish beers and some great British seafood.

* although I find such descriptions of little value.


Quote:
How was BoJo stiffed by May over Ireland?
May allowed the EU to dictate the process. Thus the Withdrawal Agreement, with one change to the NI protocol negotiated by Johnson, tied our hands.

Indeed, we should just have walked away at that point with no WA and none of the other shackles associated with it.

Quote:
Unlike countries cited as our enemy* (eg Iran, North Korea, Russia), the EU is our major trading partner and we share a common border with one of their members, Ireland, with regard to ensuring peace in Northern Ireland and many alliances. So whatever you may feel, we need to have a healthy relationship with the EU for the good of the UK.
The EU is currently acting like an enemy. Their negative effect on the UK is far worse than the other countries you cited. I suspect that the EU is not going to be our major trading partner much longer. If we stand up to those bullies, we'll be better off and Ireland will have problems that the EU will have to solve.

Quote:
An extension would have allowed us time to negotiate veterinary equivalence with the EU and we could have made them look unreasonable if they didn't agree to one. Now our PM just looks weak and acts perfidiously. I hope the situation can be salvaged over a few Cornish beers and some great British seafood.
An extension would not have changed the negotiating position unless the EU believed that we would walk away if we didn't get the right concessions. Our PM looks weak because he is not a person of substance and he's to blame for the EU's nastiness.

1andrew1 11-06-2021 09:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082540)


May allowed the EU to dictate the process. Thus the Withdrawal Agreement, with one change to the NI protocol negotiated by Johnson, tied our hands.

Indeed, we should just have walked away at that point with no WA and none of the other shackles associated with it.

The EU is currently acting like an enemy. Their negative effect on the UK is far worse than the other countries you cited. I suspect that the EU is not going to be our major trading partner much longer. If we stand up to those bullies, we'll be better off and Ireland will have problems that the EU will have to solve.

An extension would not have changed the negotiating position unless the EU believed that we would walk away if we didn't get the right concessions. Our PM looks weak because he is not a person of substance and he's to blame for the EU's nastiness.
Invoking Article 50 before we had sorted out our negotiating objectives was a clear error on Theresa May's part.

It's a pure fantasy to pretend we could have left without a deal. It would have driven a coach and horses through the Good Friday Agreement and no politician would countenance such a thing.

I think if you spoke to Dawn Sturgess's family (she was poisoned to death by Novichok) and the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe (languishing in an Iranian jail) you would soon find out the reality of your beliefs on which countries are closer to being our enemies than the EU.

With the clock counting down and your reluctance to re-start it, I fear you would have taken us up the same creek as BoJo has, had you been in his shoes.

Pierre 11-06-2021 22:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Can anyone advise why Von der Leyen is at the G7? She’s not a leader, or a head of state of any nation in the G7?

papa smurf 11-06-2021 22:20
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36082619)
Can anyone advise why Von der Leyen is at the G7? She’s not a leader, or a head of state of any nation in the G7?
no idea but i spent 20 mins swearing at the telly when i saw her:mad:

Sephiroth 11-06-2021 22:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I hope that the British Sausage is on the breakfast menu.

Hugh 11-06-2021 23:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36082619)
Can anyone advise why Von der Leyen is at the G7? She’s not a leader, or a head of state of any nation in the G7?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_and_the_G7

Quote:
The European Union (EU) is a member of the G7 (the G8, until Russia was uninvited in 2014). It has been dubbed its "8th member",[1] holding all the privileges and obligations of membership but without the right to host or chair a summit.[2] As the full name of the G7 is the "Group of Seven Nations", the EU has not been included in the number, hence there being eight members in the G7.

The President of the European Commission has attended since he was first invited to the third G7 summit in 1977, Roy Jenkins was the then-President.[2] Since 1981 the President has attended all sessions of the G7.[3] The EU is currently represented by the Commission President and the President of the European Council.[2] The latter used to be the rotating chair of the council of EU state leaders, with irregular attendance since 1982.[4] The Council Presidency sometimes coincided with one of the G8 members, in which case that leader attended with their national and European mandate.[2] Since 2009, the President of the European Council is a permanent position, who always attends the summits. As the EU is a member, what the Presidents endorse at the G8 is politically binding on them.

The EU attends due to its role in the world economy, and its relevancy increased with the establishment of a single market, common currency and foreign policy. The Paris Summit of 1989 was a landmark year for the EU's participation in the G7, when the G7 asked the EU to assume responsibility for Phare.


https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi...isations/g7_en

Quote:
The European Union is a unique supranational organisation – not a sovereign Member State – hence the name G7 “Group of Seven”. The EU is therefore a ‘non-enumerated’ member and does not assume the rotating G7 presidency.

In 1977, representatives of the then European Community began participating in the London summit. The role has expanded over time, with the EU gradually included in all political discussions on the summit agenda and, from the Ottawa summit (1981) onwards, has taken part in all working sessions.
---------- Post added at 23:46 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36082621)
no idea but i spent 20 mins swearing at the telly when i saw her:mad:
That’s probably why she went… ;)

Carth 12-06-2021 09:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36082619)
Can anyone advise why Von der Leyen is at the G7? She’s not a leader, or a head of state of any nation in the G7?

Probably the only foreign holiday she'll get ;)

Hugh 12-06-2021 10:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Interesting (imho) commentary in the Times today.

Basically, foreign leaders don't trust Boris to keep his word, because
Quote:
A compromise with Brussels on the Irish protocol is entirely achievable. There is right on both sides and (as James Forsyth set out in yesterday’s Times) London and Brussels — if they tried — could steer this problem towards a workable fudge. Strict legality favours the EU case, but the EU has long experience of bending the rules when it wants to. The problem is that it doesn’t want to because the EU doesn’t trust this prime minister. And that lack of belief in Boris Johnson’s good faith is shared, I suspect, by the US president. Respect and trust are missing. The Irish protocol kerfuffle is only one example of a wider problem facing a country in whose leader’s integrity our allies have lost confidence.
Quote:
he says things entirely for the effect they produce at the time and on his immediate audience.
Quote:
For now, British voters don’t seem to care. I get that. Domestically he has taken to new heights the art of being forgivable. So does it matter that in Cornwall he’s in the company of a handful of foreign leaders whose votes he doesn’t need? Yes, because Britain needs their trust and, for now, Boris is Britain. He does not inspire that trust. Northern Ireland is perhaps the first example of why this matters. It will not be the last.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...nson-zgmffxtk2


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