Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As long as you send the document and allow them to draw their own conclusions from the content there is nothing to worry about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is true the children and adults with special needs, will find this confusing

It is 1 in 10 children and adults who are Dyslexic, I should know I am Dyslexic plus I set up a Group for Dyslexic's as well

That is 100% write, I am sorry to say.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm, is a rewrite in order there, or are they intentionally re-writing the facts to suit their personal stance?

"
During the trials adverts were stripped out of web pages served up to BT customers and replaced with more targeted ads, if available.

If none were available, adverts for one of three charities were inserted. "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't worry too much about that... remember, 'no ads were used during the trials'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try here OB :)

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Sp...-Distribution/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done on the apology Alex, it comes across very well. I especially liked the sabre-rattling comment :)

So, after all's been said and done, let's see if I understand what they did.

* Purchased ads two weeks prior to the trial in order to drop cookies for use in the trial
* Purchased ad space that would present a 'default' charity advert
* Sold ad space which would be used as part of the 'two-week ad-serving phase of the trial" and when a cookie was detected and a profile could be matched, the default advert was replaced with one from the 3rd parties who purchased the ad space.

Question - The list of agencies that were listed on p7 of the report - were they made aware the nature of the advertising space they were sold and were they appraised of the legal situation regarding the trial ?
(based on the assumption that BT/Phorm had legal advice they could quote at this point which has not yet been proved)

If the trial is proven to be illegal, then BT/Phorm would also have a case to answer regarding involving these other companies in an illegal act.

Have I misunderstood?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think the companies involved could be deemed as complicit given that they had no direct part in the act and were presumably unaware. But the report is vague on this so I can't say one way or the other.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3...orm-trial.html

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 ----------

Their next move?

Trying to get a court order to ban the protest outside the BT AGM?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would be very surprised if they tried this and even more surprised if they succeeded. I can't think of any legal argument they could use to try and stop a protest.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You did the right thing, Alex, and we're all behind you! Keep up the good work!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you're right - but the publicity we'd get would be great! We can only hope.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree, I didn't think the companies would be complicit, but BT/Phorm would have brought them into disrepute by involving them (assuming that the trials get negative publicity related to an illegal act).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This comment from another forum

Amazing, legally BT under its Terms and Conditions, could not drop the cookie to enable tracking so instead they let 121Media to do it stealthily

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/D...l-Leaked-95058

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex hopefully you won't continue to beat yourself up over this. It has managed to smoke out information and admissions that previously were not forthcoming. And it has hopefully given google et al a heads up - if they needed it - that people are after their lunch. All in all a great outcome.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just had a thought (just the one :P) If BT couldn't drop the cookie due to their T's & C's, what would be the legal viewpoint of engaging someone else to drop the cookies for you? Wouldn't that be a breach of T's & C's as it was part of a BT trial?

<hypothetical situation>
In other (very old) news..

Re-wind 8 years..
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/12..._right_to_spy/

fast-forward 8 years to current scenario
* ISP's have stated they *cannot* store this level of data
* ISP's have now proved they *could* store this level of data
* Government let's ISP's track users data connections without legal recourse
* Government makes ISP's *keep* the data they intercept
* Government gains access to ISP's stored data

Far fetched? It isn't a conspiracy theory, it's a conspiracy.

</hypothetical situation>

Alex : you mentioned a couple of times that Chris@El Reg had mentioned the leaked document in an article already published, could you let us know which one please? Ta.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...rm_2006_trial/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i think that is because the cookie in question was a 121media cookie (i.e third party) and not a bt.com cookie.

i am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does it matter how it is put the fact it is on record BT told ICO that no adverts were placed before the customers this report shows this is incorrect this needs to be corrected and BT need to face the music over it. How can the ICO trust reports from BT from now on if they still hide behind they I don't know, we didn't, it was small scale, no data was kept or processed. They need to work on regaining trust and one step in right direction is like Alexander be honest and admit your faults..

I do get the feeling Ian wil have made himself safe so it could be Emma's head on the chopping block since she was the one on TV still spinning the half truths publicly.. Sorry but before I would have lied on air would have got a sick note and made someone else go in my place I just can't lie and hate those who constantly do to improve their lifestyle or bank balance....



MPO BT wanted to stealthily move webwise into the network and then fool those who are easily taken in those who have tenencies to paranioa over security without telling them they are being stalked all over the interent every page they read is logged and harvested, we only have kents and BT's word this information isnt stored going from recent events is this word trustworthy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

alex i have posted the comment below over on III in both the phorm and BT forums i posted a link to the doc

*********
alex hannff has corrected a statement in response to a request by phorm's / BT's legal team

see http://nodpi.org/?p=11

this is posted in accordance with the request by alex that we post this update as requested by the legal communication he recieved
*********

no one can say we are not playing fair and by the rules, shame others are not though

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT/Phorm need to be very careful that they don't generate even more adverse publicity for themselves by targeting "the little guy" (sorry Alexander, but you know what I mean).
The press loves it when corporate lawyers hassle ordinary people. Loads of column inches can result and it never looks good for the suits.

They should respond graciously to the apology and everyone move on.

However, that doesn't let them off the hook. The content of the leaked document obviously contradicts what they told the ICO and they now have some explaining to do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I didn't really correct the statement in response to their legal team. I retracted the statement a long time before I heard from BT or Phorm. I retracted the statement as an act of good faith until the issue could be clarified and that was a decision I made without any legal prodding.

It may seem like splitting hairs but makes a big difference with regards to whether or not I could be accused of defamation. If you recall the sequence of events, I posted my original opinion stating it needed to be clarified, then after more thought and discussion I added an update in big red bold font offering an alternative interpretation but still stating the situation needed clarifying and then I retracted the part entirely mid morning yesterday and replaced it with a paragraph inviting Kent a right to reply to clarify the issue.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex, a HUGE thank you for what you have done on this campaign:angel::clap:

As I now understand the situation with the Charity adverts is they :-

Bought Charity adverts. Who benifited the charity or the advert company

Used said charity adverts to test the reportedly illegal system. So so charitys have been used to validate a criminal act. Phorm are skum, lower then the low to use charities in this way.

Then because of a misunderstanding of a document, and one mistake by the opponents of the people involved, when the truth comes out, get heavy.

Phorm and BT committed 1000's of crimal acts, but dont give a damm and will not explain their actions. Yet one legitimate mistake by the oposition and no crime commited, threaten legal action.

What would be the position on a citizans arrest against those involved in BT's criminal acts.

col

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The one from 1st April 2008?
So how come this document has only just come to the public eye if the Reg had a copy of it at the beginning of April?

<disappointed>
This is how we missed it then, Chris hasn't provided a link to the document either. I'd like to know why Chris hasn't followed up with a least an updated article with the link to wikileaks and re-posted it on the front page.
</disappointed>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Inadvisable to attempt a citizen's arrest under any circumstances nowadays given PACE you are likely to end up the one in jail instead of the person you arrest.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 10:12 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/06...ecoms-eav.html
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ying-made.html

Re: Chris at El Reg, you have to remember he is a journalist, he can't just publish what he feels like, he has an editor and hoops to jump through just like any employee does.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you should leave one of these links questioning the information together with a Special Forum Note, that the Document in Question was hard to properly Understand & therefore could easily lead to misinterpretation on this particular point!

Maybe future evidence that helps you to prove that this part of the Document was difficult to interpret.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank for that.

Your intergarty, hard work and dedication are amazing.

Thank you again.

col

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For some obscure reason I spent a lot of time reading PACE a couple of years back, I forget why (no I wasn't in trouble) something I had read had lead me to want to find out more and I specifically researched the situation with citizens arrests. It is a dangerous path to tread nowadays and the danger is you could end up in jail if you don't know exactly how to do it and specific conditions are not met.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ying-made.html has a digg link at the bottom the page - go to it!

Edit: So does http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3...orm-trial.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apart from the Phorm issues this thread is amazing for lots of reasons.

A couple of days ago somebody posted about Google grants.

The last time I looked into this is was just for the USA 501(3) organisations.

The post promted me to look again, and yesterday I filled in an application for the charity I run. So thank you ( sorry I can not remember who made the post).

col

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wish you and your charity luck with your application.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 10:45 ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 ----------

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=13320

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are many old sayings around all meaning the same thing.

A chain is as strong as its weakest link,
BT was strong now with Phorm this old saying comes tomind.
A fool and his money are soon parted
To say it is foolhardy to follow the phorm route is correct.

this last one maybe more relevent to what BT are doing
Absolute power corrupts absolutely

With the forcing of phorm onto customers yes forcing since there is no way technically to avoid the phorm servers, you still get intercepted regardless of if it is proccessed or not it is illegal interception. So BT are forcing absolute power over their customers! The fact we only have BT and Phorms word they wouldn't be proccessed in the light of the leaked report that word is worthless.

All that glitters is not gold
Phorm maybe glittering money before your eyes look at the old saying and think for a while.

Appearances are deceiving

This would fit in with the whole saga of Kents life from early days to present nothing has changed.
Which make me think time to stop the old sayings with this very apt one about the spyware

Does a leopard change his spots?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

fair point, but as soon as they visit the link that is clear anyway, i did post another comment over on BT forums as well which is probably more in line the actual situation

********
Re: BT Webwise Discussion Thread
Posted: Jun 6, 2008 9:29 AM in response to: Mark H Reply

i see over on cable forum that alex got a communication from PHORM's /BT's solicitors requesting he retract various statements re the leaked document.

alex had actually done this yesterday prior to this and openly requested BT / PHORM clarify some points, if my reading of the comments ( http://nodpi.org/?p=11 ) are correct they clarified one point that phorm had placed the charity adverts, but failed to clarify if the charities they placed these adverts on behalf of had been made aware of either the placement of the adverts or their purpose as being a default if no targeted advert was available and several others

alex also appears to have complied with the legal request by asking others to remove the comments indicated which most if not all seem to have done

if you are synical you could draw any of the conclusions below over the legal action on alex or if you believe BT / Phorm that they are legally doing the ad serving you may draw another conclusions altogether

1: BT / Phorm want to silence him (anyway they can)

2: BT / Phorm have more to hide (come on BT / Phorm lets have more CLEAR information on the trial and exactly how the system works, there is still the issue of the diagnostic logs held by the adserver for 14 days)

3: lack of PR team response from BT / Phorm on the forums etc, means they consider they have lost the PR battle now they are using the heavy hand of the law to try and win as they have bigger legal budgets and better a legal team than alex

i think a large number of people will probably take one of the synical options

me, i am not saying in case BT send the heavy's round to me, but i do tend to have a synical view of the motives of big business

peter
********

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd missed this gem:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2008/06...kidding-phorm/

Good God, what will K*nt come up with next?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Goodness, I go away on business for a couple of days and all this happens. Thanks to Alexander for all his work.

I've done a major update to http://www.inphormationdesk.org/ - please review it and let me know what you think.

In particular I've added a new page: http://www.inphormationdesk.org/whyitswrong.htm - I've tried to incorporate all the feedback I received when I posted an earlier version of this last Sunday.

Please provide some feedback, and then we can go for next actions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

both dug

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:( Another one of my posts deleted :( This is getting to be a regular thing these days.

I suppose this is K~nt Ertugrul's way of backing out of the adopt an African child PR move!? (anyway still room for digging the dirt on the details of this story) I still expect to see big kind hearted K~nt on the front of Oxfam's newsletter digging a village well and carrying starving children to safety on his shoulders, bless you K~nt you're all heart! :p:

Alex, Man! You should have told the K~nt to Ph~ck off, you're too polite for your own good! It would have been fantastic to challenge them in court even if you would have got a legal hammering, your kred and kudos would be massive. You could have used the newpaper/media interest to bring this story to a much wider audience, a great tactical move. Forget all this queensbury rules nonsense you've got to fight dirty with those BT/Phorm *******s.

Anyone know where K~nt parks his bentley? (where's my thermit? :D)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would rather be here using my time to fight the deployment of this technology and fighting for justice for the victims of the covert trials, than wasting time defending baseless accusations of defamation in a court room.

Plus, I made a mistake it is simple as that, it would be poor form (excuse the pun) not to apologise and retract the statement (as I had already done). I made it very clear to Emma that I have no intention of retracting the question of whether or not BT misled ICO.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

im probably going sky broadband. virgin have screwed me over :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On this I totally disagree, Alex your family comes first they are the future, we are the present & need to prepare our offspring properly for their own future.

Short term gain and long term Loss is not a very good strategy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree Alex did the honerable thing we still wait for BT to do the same.

if you wish to listed to Emma again here on BBC news

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No wonder I couldn't find the article in question... It would appear that El Reg published details of the 'leaked document' eight weeks before it was leaked!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What happened to the pdf on https://secure.wikileaks.org/wiki/Image:BT_Report
Image:BT Report

No file by this name exists, you can upload it.
Links

There are no pages that link to this file.
Also since the register had its mention here about the leaked report that has also vanished.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...rm_2006_trial/
404: Page Not Found

Hi there. Maybe you typed in the wrong URL, or hit on a bad link. Or maybe the page you thought you were going to read no longer exists in our database.

If you think we've got something wrong please email webmaster@theregister.co.uk noting exactly where you found the bad link.

Smells of Corporate cover up to me...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would love to see the BBC news get Emma back on the show, and say watt were you saying Emma, no personal info went out, yep pull the other one! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

can i throw this one in as well

http://www.out-law.com/page-9165

google are getting grief from the EU over offering adwords of copyrighted and trademarked words

hmm, could be an issue for phorm as well

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Florence - the wiki page moved to another page.

The reg link there seems to be cut and pasted as it now contains the shortened ... anotation which this messageboard uses. You need to click on / paste the full url.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i wouldnt do that, i think sky were looking at phorm as well as orange if my memory is correct

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, both Orange and Sky said they were 'having discussions' with companies in this area. No specic mention of which companies.

The following 'snippet' was reported back in Feb:

A spokesman for Sky, the UK's fastest growing broadband network with about 1.2 million lines, said: "Sky is interested in exploring the potential for targeted online advertising and is talking with a number of companies operating in this area.

Full article:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...d_isp_targets/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Already emailed BBC with link to leaked report and questions that need to be answered about the report plus I am sure they will find many.

Also the bit about still going through the phorm kit evenif you did opt out which once opting out is illegal interception.
Suggested if BT wanted to follow this course they would have to consider a two teir internet one that is phorm phree as in no contact at all with phorm kit andf the reduced price phorm connection opted in where the customer is paid for the use of the clicks with lower priced uncapped internet sicne these adverts would be using bandwith the customer is capped on...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Message of support to Alex

I know in the past I have been critical of minor aspects of the focus of the campaign, and be assured that I've been working behind the scenes with technology, media and political contacts to help stop or curb Phorm and other data tracking/profiling within ISPs, but I want to add my voice of support to Alex in the face of strong-armed legal threats from BT.

In my view there is rarely justification for any large organisation to issue a legal threat BEFORE first entering into civil discussions when the other party is a private individual or smaller company with limited resources.

Shame on BT. I'm sure if a reasonably senior person from BT had explained the situation to Alex he would have corrected the mistake but yet again we see David v. Goliath attacking free speech and free expression, which was obviously presented as a personal opinion in the first place.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been rather busy of late and not been able to keep up with this Phorm debate - thanks to all those that have - but it seems things have been going the way one would expect and to quote the immortal words of Mahatma Gandhi "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Hopefully the end is not too far away :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's here

http://secure.wikileaks.org/wiki/Bri...idation_report

and here

http://file.sunshinepress.org:54445/...eport-2007.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Okay I never expected Alex to consider my sage tongue in cheek advice seriously, just a thought for him to consider.

[ Msg for the thought police ] I wasn't seriously planning on melting K~nt's car with thermit, just thinking aloud! Btw if someone does go after his pride and joy with a set of keys or a screwdriver down both sides (boot, bonnet, roof, wheels, front grill -- have I missed a part?) of his motor, and signs it with my nym, similar typos, spells, grammar etc IT WASN'T ME!!! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Register Article is still there - the link above is faulty. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that I was starting to get paraniod that Bt were closing all bad publicity down..

Suprised at the heavy handed attack on Alex though totally out of order since following the discussion they could see he had mentioned how he had interprited it.. which is another meanng for his opinion which we are all alowed to have.

Hope they are ready to start to answer questions truthfully as it will happen sooner or later this badphorm experience will need to be explained the longer BT try to cover the more damage they do to them selves.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Or as I posted on Badphorm Sun Mar 09 2008, 11:17PM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is noted how Emma's voice begins to quiver when asked uncomfortable questions and in commendable style, glosses over them.
She, and perhaps Kent, should be invited back onto C4 news, a few more pertinent questions and grilling from Jon Snow should really bring out the best in them.

Krishan Guru-Murthy wasn't forceful enough last time.

Does anyone know if C4 news have details of the leaked BT trial document?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex

Just want you to know that I am behind you all the way. In fact, if BT want to shoot you down - they can have a shot at me too.

There are 10's of thousands against Phorm - everyone stand up now, and give a message to BT. Everyone stand together in this, and give your support to Alex.

If they want to action this exposure - put them in the position that the only place big enough to prosecute us all will be at Wembley Stadium.

BT and Phorm have been caught; and any threat they make should be to us all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

interesting, had wondered why i had no alerts abouts post on the forum and found BT had been bouncing them in the bulk folder????

also the replies from bt to my questions seem to have disappeared out of my inbox on my webmail???

i noticed this a few weeks back as well, not sure whats going on but time to do some digging, any other BT users noticed similar??

not that i am paranoid of course (he says looking over his shoulder in case a phorm or BT employyee stood behind him watching him type this)
peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This has been also raised on Badphorm, where emails seemingly with anti-phorm footers were ALLEGEDLY going to junk folder, and other ALLEGED funnies.

http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f...pic.php?3325.0

Disclaimer: I can't vouch for the above... Personal opinions, blah blah...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is at times like this I enjoy my domain name emails all personal or emails that could be to someones advantage to dissapear go to my domain name BT has no access to them :)

Hope you downloaded copies to your pc for future referance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe a bunch of the anti phorm domains have been added to spam blacklists either by BT/Phorm as part of the PR or by "fans" (people like HamsterWheel) of Phorm.

A lot of people have said they have not received signup emails to the nodpi.org forums (yet they worked fine for me during testing) so it is not inconceivable that spam blacklist warfare may have been used.

NOTE TO PHORM/BT : This is not an accusation nor is it defamation, it is merely me suggesting possible reasons for the issue :p

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just tested as suggested over on badphorm, anything that has the badphorm .co.uk tag in it is dumped in bulk

interesting

just the word phorm goes through ok

further testing

badphorm.co.uk = bulk
badphorm.co = bulk
badphorm.=bulk
badphorm = delivered inbox

hmm ???

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don’t feel too bad. Given my lower post count, I probably have an even higher deletion ratio than you. My post only contained a quote from nodpi.org, the text of which I see is still there on Alex’s site. Although, I can well understand Mike not wanting it on this forum, even as a quote; leaving it could put him in the legal firing line.

Alex, please don’t take this the wrong way, but you might be better running your more explosive conclusions by a few other people, before publishing. While you may be working mostly alone, you can be sure Phorm aren’t. I’m sure they have meetings of top bods: one or more board members, top employees and representation from Phorm’s PR agencies and solicitors. They may even have sections of their meetings that specifically address the ‘Alex Issue.’ :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same problem here Alex. No email received

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe you could also test with another random blog .co.uk domain name that has nothing to do with Phorm? To be honest this could be a red herring as spam scoring takes a number of factors into account, one of which is usually the precense of a URL (common in SPAM). So e.g. guardian.co.uk would go to spam? Or another forum site that has never mentioned Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex I sent you a PM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

nope,

nodpi.org goes through as does random.org

they just don't like badphorm.co.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just for completeness, would you mind trying a regular email which references cableforum.co.uk and one which references adslguide.co.uk? This really is rather interesting.

The rumours have been doing the rounds for a while now, as you'll see from the timestamps on Badphorm. Speculation here: this kind of filtering would hamper any attempts to inform BT customers of the Badphorm website, although we have no evidence whatsoever to suggest the cause of the effect you're seeing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone able to tell me, are Gyron internet owned by BT? Or are they independent?

Update: "Gyron Internet Ltd is a privately owned company"

Detail here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex

Your mail has arrived - a little.... well no very late, but no real issue now :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Independant

Request: gyron.net
Registrant:
Gyron Internet Ltd
Sovereign House
227 Marsh Wall
LONDON, E14 9SD
GB

Domain name: GYRON.NET

Administrative Contact:
Support Team, Gyron Internet noc@gyron.net
Sovereign House
227 Marsh Wall
LONDON, E14 9SD
GB
0207 043 1443 Fax: 0207 043 1444

Technical Contact:
Support Team, Gyron Internet noc@gyron.net
Sovereign House
227 Marsh Wall
LONDON, E14 9SD
GB
0207 043 1443 Fax: 0207 043 1444



Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 21-Feb-2008.
Record expires on 21-Mar-2009.
Record created on 21-Mar-2000.

Registrar Domain Name Help Center:
http://domainhelp.tucows.com

Domain servers in listed order:
NS01.UK.GYRON.NET 83.223.127.226
NS02.UK.GYRON.NET 77.75.107.85

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To repeat and update earlier warning to BT customers who don't want to be involved with Phorm...

BT CUSTOMERS BEWARE

Do not log into the BT site, then visit any Phorm/third party operated BT.com web site.

Logging out is insufficient; it is necessary you delete all BT.com cookies.

Sites Potentially Affected Include

webwise.bt.com (hosted by Gyron Internet, operated by Phorm)
www.webwise.bt.com (hosted by Gyron Internet, operated by Phorm)

Explanation

BT seem to be using a 'single sign on' product (called Siteminder) which allows you to log in once and gain access to any BT.com web site without being prompted for your user name or password. This is convenient, you sign on once and gain seamless access to all BT.com web sites.

During the login process cookie values are set for all BT.com web sites (cookies which include your email address, and a security credential which authenticates you to BT.com web sites).

Your browser will present those cookies to any BT.com web site trusting that those sites would not exist without BT consent. This will include BT.com web sites operated by Phorm/third parties outside BT's network, such as webwise.bt.com and www.webwise.bt.com.

This creates a security and privacy risk for the following reasons.

A security risk is created because an untrustworthy third party able to operate a BT.com web site, who is able to impersonate your IP address, and present a copy of your security credential, may be able to access your BT.com services and account details. This is called a replay/spoofing attack, a known security risk in single sign on solutions.

A privacy risk is created because a third party able to operate a BT.com web site has immediate access to your email address, whether or not you choose to enter that information. This allows third parties to obtain your email address, and link your email address and IP address simply by visiting their web site.

When Webwise/OIX is trialled, third parties would be able to link your email address, IP address and Webwise UID. If you delete your Webwise UID cookie, third parties would be able to link old/new Webwise UIDs knowing your email address.

Even when you log out of BT.com your btcom.userName cookie (which includes your email address) is persistent.

Confirmation

The 'BT Webwise Help Desk' said

"The bt.com site includes functionality which enables it to remember users for the duration of their session (i.e. from when they sign in to when they close their web-browser), in order to provide a smoother customer experience and prevent the need to repeatedly log-in or re-state preferences. This is done by using a secure single-sign-on solution which employs cookies. The design of that system prevents unauthorised access to a user's logged-in session."

"Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise) on BT's behalf as a trusted partner and with BT's explicit consent (this approach is not uncommon). We are confident that this does not pose any security risk."

(Note the www.bt.com/webwise redirects to webwise.bt.com)

Cookies Affected

SMSESSION = (Netegrity site minder encrypted cookie)
btcom.userName = (email address)
btcom.dateVisited = (date of visit)

Conclusion

By allowing Phorm to operate a *.bt.com web site... BT may be giving your email address, and security credentials away to Phorm.

Sites like bt.custhelp.com and bt.webwise.com will not be affected (because the browser will not recognise them as BT.com sites).

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

Further to above warning; K_nt Ersdfsdf said in this interview

"we fully anonymise users by not tying into anything at all that the isp knows about them whether its something in their database, whether its an IP address for example which we don't use at all"

Which is either untrue, or BT are giving him PII which he does not need to process. In either case, that's a clear violation of the Data Protection Act (as far as I'm concerned).

Consequently it is not possible for Phorm to operate a BT.com web domain and remain compliant with DPA. Or BT need to stop giving customers email addresses and security credentials to Phorm.

Or preferably do something their customers might actually value instead.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've successfully signed up to the nodpi.org phorums today so the problem is not on your side.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do we need an ethical 'kitemark' for ISP's? Perhaps awarded by nodpi.org?

In order to display the kitemark, the ISP would need to state somewhere in it's T&C's that :

(a) They have no plans to deploy or investigate the use of DPI for commercial reasons.

(b) That if they ever did, customers would be free to walk away from any contract without penalty.

(In the first point, they may need to deploy DPI kit, with a warrant, on behalf of the authorities. In the second point, I don't think it would be realistic to ask any business to commit to not doing something for all time).

It might gain some publicity, both for the cause and for the ethical ISP's.

It would also be interesting to see which ISP's did not apply to use it.

EDIT : Also something for web sites that do not deploy ads linked to DPI generated profiles?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably better for ISPReview or a similar site to issue the kite given they will undoubtedly have a great deal more exposure to "customer churn" than NoDPI is likely to experience.

But I think it is a good idea.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Since BT say this phorm c*** will be only on their total packages will they be offering a phorm phree package?

I presume not..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That definition would need refining a lot - there are legitimate reasons for deploying DPI kit.

For example Plusnet use it to ensure that gaming and VOIP traffic is always given higher priority than general browsing and email and these are given higher priority than P2P. DPI is required to differentiate between this such as genuine gaming and P2P applications attempting to circumvent controls by trying to look like gaming. Plusnet are totally open about how the Ellacoyas prioritise the different traffic types and do not use them to look at actual data contents, just to determine the traffic type.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Correct that is what they used it for not for monitoring everypage read exactly what I see as if they were sitting at the side of me then sel this information on for monatory gain.

On another note noticed phorm shares are down and phorm is in the bottm 4

MEC.L -35.16
PHRM.L -35.42
YELL.L -40.94
JPR.L -46.69

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reuters consider them to be a good buy no doubt because the price is down -62.20% on the price 3 months ago.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just been on this website shows a graph of phorm share plunge. Yet they still say phorm a good investment.

Which means the moneymen think this will blow away that is worry. Do they know something we dont.

http://www.reuters.com/finance/stock...?symbol=PHOR.L

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...et_trials.html
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Few people detected Phorm in BT's secret trials

Wikileaks has what looks like an internal BT memo about the adware trial
June 6, 2008 12:29 PM ....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ask SCO how quickly a tech share price can collapse if you don't tell the truth.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey at least lets get the AGM over and perhaps sell BT shares while we can still keep our shirt :D really dont want to sell them till after the AGM if I can get her to sell...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For anyone planning travel to London for the demo on 15/16/17 July... Megatrain.co.uk seem to have some good deals.

http://www.megatrain.co.uk/uk/

eg;

15:52 Depart Bristol Temple Meads Arrive London Waterloo 18:45 1 seat = £1.00

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Getting back to the basics of the Phorm selling USP. To protect from Phishing. That BT test made absolutely no reference to these capabilities, highlighting again that it, to my mind is an afterthought add on to make the whole DPI process have a level of paletability in the eyes of the user, else it would be like a Tesco Clubcard without the cashback, who would want one of those?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've spent the last hour or so going through the leaked document again and it's still mind-boggling how much 'dirt' is in there.

One thing comes across very strongly and many people have remarked upon it; the emphasis on 'transparency'. This is transparency in BT/Phorm terms i.e. covert.

They quote a 0.1% detection rate. That's high given the percentage of people with the technical savvy to understand that there may be a problem.

They also address the issue of 'navigation bar flutter'. Clearly, this was not sorted for the 2007 trial because it was spotted by users.

Now the user base, or certainly the tech savvy user base, is primed and looking for it. They will find it nearly impossible to proceed 'transparently'.

They have also completely failed to 'manage' perceptions.

Hence no trial?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure there will be a trial, just not that kind of trial.

They can't run a technical trial until they fix the leaking email cookie issue... that means Phorm must not run a bt.com domain (or BT must fix their porous siteminder implementation).

And arguably its too late anyway. They have leaked so many email addresses/customer account numbers/ip addresses to Phorm you would have to do a lot to convince anyone Webwise was really anonymous.

IMHO they've blown it. And probably know it too.

And that's before you start considering the legal issues. RIPA, Copyright, etc.

Its a train wreck.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

on a side note found this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-emails.html
talk about abuse of powers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HI, BT trials reported here -

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communicatio...9430496,00.htm

http://www.telecoms.com/itmgcontent/...017540361.html

http://www.computing.co.uk/computing...l-action-phorm

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=13320

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Dephormation

Pete,

that train reminds me of a graph of their share price. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just needs flipping over to look the same :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Curious, near perfect fit;

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/75.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's what you get when you drive a train around upstairs, where it doesn't belong.

Or put a snoop box into an ISP for that matter.

That's a great pic, needs blowing up for the demo and put on a stick!

EDIT: "It's a train wreck" would be a good punchline for the BT shareholders. (Handout leaflets etc.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Full size versions (click to enlarge);

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/73.jpg https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/74.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, not sure if this has been posted but here it is anyway! Might be of interest. -

http://www.webuser.co.uk/news/257815.html

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Give them the ability to abuse their power.. And they will. ;)

This is what some people just don't seem to understand about why Phorm is hated so much..

No it isn't! It is the first steps on the way towards the acceptance of a system to watch/read/intercept/analyse then CONTROL YOU. Today the smarmy shysters like K~nt says "nothing to worry about". Then several years down the line through mission creep and extended function they have a system so entwined into every decision and thought you make, they will literally be able to target an individual and control them through various means we cannot even comprehend today. K~nt will do deals with anyone and do anything for money, if you think the thousands of people abused by councils throughout the UK using RIPA is a problem now imagine how they will abuse 'citizens' when K~nt offers them Webwise+ (millions)

Thanks to people like Stratis Scleparis former CTO of BT (now CTO of Phorm) abusing his position to beta test an illegal spying system at BT then jump ship to Phorm so he can overlook the smooth transition of WebSpies without being questioned or challenged. Thanks Stratis you back stabbing greedy money motivated b~stard.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just added the below to the footer my website

********
I explicitly deny ISP's from Using Deep Packet Inspection Technologies such as WebWise, Phorm, NeBuAd or similar technologies from intercepting any traffic to or from this website for the purpose of profiling the content to serve targeted advert or otherwise spying on visitors to MY WEBSITE
********

that should do for a start

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sadly, so sadly - this is the way of the world. At the dawn of computing we were promised paperless offices. We were not promised Orwellian control, which seems to be the main use to which computing power is being put. Governments already know more about you than they have any good right to and no matter what user-friendly name the department is called, they are NOT about upholding your privacy rights - they've been undermining those rights themselves and it wouldn't be at all surprising if they've given the green light to others who want to collect information, as long as they share it with the government. Expecting the LAW to be with you on this one would be like expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas. Sorry, but a rearguard action is the only thing that's happening around here. An extremely valiant one - but the times are not on our side. Anyone who voted for Margaret/Ronnie must now hang their head in shame because corporate indifference to legality was always part and parcel of the package.