Cable Forum - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

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- - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnilddif (Post 34603672)

Has anyone got an answer to this legal matter. Maybe it's been asked already, but I've not seen it.
As Chief Technical Officer in our family, I configure our systems to allow and deny access to sites, I expect to have the freedom to make my own decisions about any measures I wish to take, and I do not propose to use BT software. If I include certain Webwise/phorm/oix entries in the hosts file such that, because of the nature of the Webwise intercepts, all browsing is killed, as BT have warned might happen, do I have any legal redress against BT, because they are refusing me direct access to w3.directsiteaccessofmychoiceDITcom, something that I assume they are obliged to do as my ISP?
gnilddif

Very good question!!
I'll try to reply - I apologise for any sarcasm or apparent ridicule - it is not directed at you, but at the companies responsible for this Phorm/Webwise business.

Two different types of answers needed, (what privacy campaigners maintain is the legal situation - and what BT think is the legal situation) and in respect of two different real-world situations (the trial and then the final rollout of Webwise)

I can tell you what BT have said. I will leave others with better legal understanding to tell you what their interpretation of the relevant laws is (when not looked at through the BT spectacles!)

First - for the trial. Which we are currently informed is a cookie-based trial. May change, but cookie-based is the current info.

BT have certainly told us as account holders that WE must oversee our accounts and WE must oversee the use of Webwise by all users of our network. Somehow. They don't explain to me how I can oversee my adult daughter's use of her laptop and BT sub account on my home wireless network sharing my IP address when she visits from London, but never mind - it is my responsibility to do that according to BT. I'll probably have to beat her up or tie her up or something - (joke!)

So you DO have to do something. BT told you to.
So it would be reasonable for you to want to exercise the control, they are on record as telling you, that you must exercise.

They are also on record as saying that if you want to be permanently opted-out, and don't want to keep getting Webwise invitations coming up on all the browsers of all the machines in use on your network (you had to walk in with a Webwise invitation to mine - play it again Sam - sorry - Humphrey Bogart moment there) - you could/should block the domain webwise.net in terms of cookies on eachmachine if ou can get hold of them - and BT say you must! (I am NOT referring to blocking in a hosts file - They did mention blocking the domain in firewall/hosts earlier but I think they have moved on from that - although not with any great clarity) - so I think the BT answer to someone blocking webwise.net in their hosts file/firewall and suffering broken browsing would be that BT said - don't do it. (although they said DO do it earlier in the year).

Confused yet? They (BT) certainly are.

They have not made it clear how you are supposed to block cookies (and keep them blocked) from webwise.net on the separate machines of adult users of your network, sharing your IP but presumably you have to demand access to their machines and make the necessary changes, and then I suppose check those adult's or children's machines before and after each time they use them to make sure they haven't opted in to Webwise against your wishes by unblocking the cookies and responding to a Webwise invitation.

If anyone DOES opt in, just once, to the Webwise trial, (even a minor) using your home network and IP address, without your knowledge then you are automatically and irrevocably given new T&C's. The action of this other person is interpreted by BT as YOU agreeing to a change in T&C's which implies YOUR consent to Webwise. You have now suffered a material change in your T&C's and BT think that they can enforce that in law.

The current published information is that the Webwise invitation will be presented during a "browsing session" so the person using your network and IP address does not even have to be logged in as a BT ISP user - merely using your network (as far as I can see, reading the BT runes on the subject)

The final rollout - that's simple. We know virtually nothing about the final rollout so it is mostly speculation. I don't think anyone can comment with any degree of confidence about what will or will not be done. I certainly won't.

As you can see, the trial situation, based on questions already asked of BT and information already published is a legal nonsense in terms of shared use of a home network. BT have said nothing more than these two things:

Sorting it is YOUR problem
If anyone signs into Webwise trial on your IP address/network then your T&C's are deemed changed. This has consequences for you. Tough!

They maintain that is all legally quite straightforward.

IMHO they live in cloud cuckoo land.

If you find the above ridiculous and infuriating, then you are in good company!

Hope that was helpful.
If I've got any of this wrong please do correct me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

The next Big protest we should try to attend:

Quote:

Dear friends of freedom!

On the 11th of October 2008, human and civil rights organizations from
all over Europe are planning protests in every European capital.

This Pan-European campaign hopes to raise awareness for the need for
greater freedom and democracy in Europe, as well as a protest against
the security and intelligence apparatus of the state contravening human
rights by means of surveillance, data retention and biometric databases
across Europe.

We believe that the retention of citizen's electronic communication
violates fundamental human rights, like the right to privacy. It
violates confidential communication between priests and confessors,
journalists and their sources, doctors and patients, lawyers and
clients. It does not increase the success of criminal investigations,
but instead can be used to reveal political, business, and private
communication and endangers the work of political, direct aid and
refugee support groups.

We would kindly ask you to support this Europe-wide protest by
disseminating the call for action to your own members or organization
and other like-minded organizations. In a lot of European countries,
organizational, logistic and financial support is very welcome!

* The goal is to form broad and sustainable movements in every
EU-member state for freedom and democracy.*

We would like to see hundreds of thousands of people everywhere to stand
up for the vision of a just society.

The European Call for Action will follow soon. Actually, we are working
on it in an open process, so you are invited to participate.[3]
You may find the draft Call for action below.
Please note: it's a draft, feel free to edit and discuss. Deadline is 20. July and it should be released by all participating organizations with an individual press Release an 25. July.

We would also be happy if you and your national member organizations are
kindly would sign and support the Call for Action and the campaign itself.

You will understand that the whole campaign will cost a lot of money. Thus, the organizations in the member states are asked to look for funding themselves and in every country money is desperately needed.

We have set up an organizational website, where every country is listed.
In some states the contact data of a main organizer are missing, which
simply means, that every organization is welcome to start organizing
protest there.

If you have any further questions or comments, please do not hesitate to
contact me, you'll find my contact data below.

Best regards / Viele GrÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¼ÃƒÆ’Ã…Â¸e,
Ricardo Cristof Remmert-Fontes
- AK Vorrat -

Fon: +49-30-692099223
Fax: +49-700-25808789
Mobile: +49-170-2487266

+++++ Background: +++++

The protest is based on an idea of the "AK Vorrat" ("German Working
group on data retention"; http://www.ak-vorrat.de/), a german human
rights group, which is supported in Germany by over 49 national
organizations like human and civil rights groups, associations of
journalists, lawyers and doctors, the associations of confessional and
emergency help lines.[1][2]

[1] The AK Vorrat has filed the largest "class-action" constitutional
case of all times in Germany (as a symbol) against the adoption of the
european directive on data retention (DR 2006/24/EC):
http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.d...t/view/202/79/ (de/en)

[2] Joint statement on the draft bill on telecommunications data
retention of 49 organisations (including FFII Germany): http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.d...t/view/80/100/
(de/en)

[3] Link to Draft European Call for Action:
http://wiki.ak-vorrat.de/Freedom_Not...all_for_action

+++++Draft Call for Action+++++

*European Action Day "Freedom not fear - Stop the surveillance mania!" all over Europe on 11 October 2008*

A broad movement of campaigners and organizations is calling on everybody to join action against excessive surveillance by businesses and governments. On 11 October 2008, concerned humans all over Europe will take to the streets, the motto being "Freedom not fear 2008". Peaceful and creative action, from protest marches to parties, will take place in many European capital cities.

Surveillance mania is spreading. Governments and businesses register, monitor and control our behaviour ever more thoroughly. No matter what we do, who we phone and talk to, where we go, whom we are friends with, what our interests are, which groups we participate in - "big brother" government and "little brothers" in business know it more and more thoroughly. Increasingly, these databases are networked, searched, rated and otherwise utilized for discriminating people and affecting their lives without human any oversight.

The resulting lack of privacy and confidentiality is putting at risk the freedom of confession, the freedom of speech as well as the work of doctors, helplines, lawyers and journalists.

The manifold agenda of security sector reform encompasses the convergence of police, intelligence agencies and the military, threatening to melt down the division and balance of powers.

Using methods of mass surveillance, the borderless cooperation of the military, intelligence services and police authorities is leading towards a "Fortress Europe", directed against refugees and different-looking people but also affecting, for example, political activists, the poor and under-priviledged, and sports fans.

People who constantly feel watched and under surveillance cannot freely and courageously stand up for their rights and for a just society. Mass surveillance is thereby threatening the fabric of a democratic and inclusive society.

Mass surveillance is also endangering the work and commitment of civil society organizations.

Surveillance, distrust and fear are gradually transforming our society into one of uncritical consumers who have "nothing to hide" and - in a vain attempt to achieve total security - are prepared to give up their freedoms. We do not want to live in such a society!

We believe the respect for our privacy to be an important part of our human dignity. And of course, free and responsible society needs private and trustworthy communication as well as private spaces.

However, with the blanket collection of information on all European airline passengers and the disclosure of Europeans' personal data to the US, even more intrusive surveillance powers are on the insatiable political agenda. Yet, the increasing electronic registration and surveillance of the entire population does not make us any safer from crime, costs millions of Euros and puts the privacy of innocent citizens at risk. Under the reign of fear and blind actionism, targeted and sustained security measures fall by the wayside, as well as tackeling peoples' actual daily problems such as unemployment and poverty.

In order to protest against security mania and excessive surveillance we will take to the streets in capital cities all over Europe on 11 October 2008. We call on everybody to join our peaceful protest. Politicians are to see that we are willing to take to the streets for the protection of our liberties.

You can find the latest information on the protest marches and the list of participating cities at our website: http://wiki.vorratsdatenspeicherung...._Not_Fear_2008.

Our demands

1. Cutback on surveillance

* abolish the blanket logging of our communications and locations (data retention)
* abolish the blanket collection of our biometric data as well as RFID passports
* abolish the blanket collection of genetic data
* abolish permanent CCTV camera surveillance and automatic detection techniques
* scrap funding for the development of new surveillance techniques
* no blanket registration of all air travellers (PNR data)
* no information exchange with the US and other states lacking effective data protection
* no searches of private computer systems, neither online nor offline
* no surveillance and filtering of internet communication

2. Guaranteeing freedom of expression, dialogue and information

* Prohibit the installation of filtering infrastructure on ISP's networks.
* Ensure Internet users can access to the judge in matter of freedom of expression: Only an independent and impartial judge can request removal of content.
* Prohibit the internet contract termination as legal sanction.
* Ensure the strict neutrality of technical intermediaries: FAI, and hosting providers do not ahve to monitor, judge and censor the published content.
* Create a full right to quote multimedia, today indispensable to public debate in democracies.
* Protect common internet places of Expression (participatory sites, forums, comments on blogs) today threatened by inadequate laws encouraging self-censorship (chilling effect)

3. Evaluation of existing surveillance powers

We call for an independent review of all existing surveillance powers as to their effectiveness and harmful side-effects.

4. Moratorium for new surveillance powers

After the homeland armament of the past few years we demand an immediate hold to new homeland security laws that further restrict civil liberties.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarquin L-Smythe (Post 34603563)

... where I can D/L and print a complete explanatory paper to hand to said MP for him to read with all the relevant sites etc maybe we can get them reading from the same book! Well one always hopes

Bob

@Bob
Try looking on, http://www.inphormationdesk.org

I think this one is very good:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34603700)

Very good question!!
I'll try to reply - snip -
First - for the trial. Which we are currently informed is a cookie-based trial. May change, but cookie-based is the current info.

BT have certainly told us as account holders that WE must oversee our accounts and WE must oversee the use of Webwise by all users of our network. Somehow. They don't explain to me how I can oversee my adult daughter's use of her laptop and BT sub account on my home wireless network sharing my IP address when she visits from London, but never mind - it is my responsibility to do that according to BT. I'll probably have to beat her up or tie her up or something - (joke!)

So you DO have to do something. BT told you to.
So it would be reasonable for you to want to exercise the control, they are on record as telling you, that you must exercise. - snip -
.

And we still havent had any indication by BT as to how all of our British forces personnel Army, Airforce, Navy, frequently away for months on end, are supposed to manage their home accounts on behalf of their families if they are by default opted in whilst on tour of duty.
Edit: Falling under the official secrets act, all of these people may now feel that personal communication with home may be compromised, and what little information they can convey to their family about current circumstance will have to be witheld.
EDIT2: :) Did somebody pass wind?, seems to be a bit of a pregnant pause in responses here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Thanks Robert. I think it's time for another letter to BT Retail's legal chap.
gnilddif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnilddif (Post 34603759)

Thanks Robert. I think it's time for another letter to BT Retail's legal chap.
gnilddif

I'd suggest "signed for" delivery and enclose an SAE - they never replied to my letter, nor to the follow up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34603701)

The next Big protest we should try to attend:

Alexander Hanff

With respect, I think this should go in a separate thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnHorb (Post 34603780)

With respect, I think this should go in a separate thread.

To be honest I think its at home here - Phorm is part of the bigger picture.

I agree Alex, it will be much easier for a lot of folk to protest in their own Capitals. I will get in contact with the Local Student Unions over once the Colleges/Unis are back in Session, they will be more than interested - and will promote the Anti-Phorm Debate when I start in August.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

The anti-Phorm campaign is about the abuse of ISP's positions to intercept our private surfing for commercial gain. Whilst not entirely un-related, the debate about the 'surveillance society' and privacy vs security is a separate, though worthwhile, debate, and should not (IMHO) be allowed to dilute this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I am not going to argue the point, I didn't post the information to cause an argument, merely because I thought it would be of interest to people following this thread. I will say no more on it if people think it is irrelevant.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnHorb (Post 34603803)

I agree with John Horb. One practical comment - Thursday's Lord's questions were characterised by some blurring of boundaries between:

DPI/Behaviourally targeted advertising/Phorm/Webwise (Miller/Northes)
File sharing, music and game copyrights and monitoring/prosecution and release of names and addresses by ISP's/google to copyright holders of said music/games
The government's plans for new "super database".

This whole area is complicated enough for our technophobe legislators, and I'd like to keep the NO DPI/NO PHORM/NO WEBWISE question in clear blue water away from the other two - even though there IS overlap. At the moment it is clarity and understanding that we are looking for - and mixing the different things in this thread won't help. I'm not against the other things - I just don't want to have to constantly try and differentiate them here and in contacts with legislators and opinion formers.

The task once again

Find the UNinphormed
and the DEphormed
and get them INphormed
so that they become REphormed

and once again - hello to any guests. For background reading to give you quick opportunity to learn about Webwise see a few user/newbie friendly links here
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post11849.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I have a tendancy to agree.

I posted here about how the lords and gov't seem to fudge the issues by confusing DPI profiling for profit with P2P monitoring for the prevention of illegal downloading.

Whilst the privacy and surveilance debate is loosely tied and certainly NOT irrelevant, I think there is a need to keep clear boundaries.

Just my opinion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alt3rn1ty (Post 34603720)

A good point regarding the admin of home accounts, although with respect to the official secrets angle, I'd like to think that the people on the ground in theatre are already diligent enough to not write anything in a blog/e-mail home to loved ones which could compromise operations in any way. (Note: I'm only talking about the professionals who actually carry out the business of our Armed Forces, not those idiots in Whitehall who leave laptops on trains and have lost 140 MOD memory sticks in the last 18 months)

<sarcasm>
Hey, maybe there's a new product category right there for Phorm-

Category:Family of overseas military personnel
Advertising potential: sell to Al Quaida in order to target those families with adverts containing anti-British forces propoganda (a la "Lord Haw-Haw" Radio in WWII)

I wouldn't put it past Kent - after all, business is business...
</sarcasm>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

i can see a down side to it all if you surf the net and use your first language which is not English, suppose that be one way round the system :)
heres just one example

http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/default.stm

now how does it work with the different speaking, reading people of our land?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildie (Post 34603829)

It might afford some degree of protection from intrusion, at least until Phorm decide they're not making enough money out of the English-speakers.
But then, how many Welsh-language sites are there out there? Apart from the beeb and google, do any other major (non-government) organizations produce a Welsh language version of their sites? Amazon? eBay? And doesn't google cymraeg return results in English, which will be profiled anyway?