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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 12:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082467)
If you want to sort things out, you need an honest assessment of the situation. Pretending we're playing cowboys and indians with an enemy is a tad simplistic.

I would also highlight that it's not pro-anyone to point out that Biden values the Irish vote back home. It's also not pro-anyone that the Democrats see the Good Friday Agreement as one of their strongest diplomatic achievements, to be strongly defended.

And it's not Jon, me or the EU who issued the UK with a démarche, a formal diplomatic reprimand, for inflaming the rhetoric in Northern Ireland. That was the USA.

There seem to be four options:
1) Kick the tin can down the road and agree a postponement
2) As you have suggested, we can go for veterinary equivalence and sign up to EU rules. But as Jon has warned, we then risk being described as a vassal state
3) We don't supply chilled meats, etc to Northern Ireland
4) We break an international treaty and carry on supplying NI with chilled meat products, etc past the deadline of 30th June.

If you're David Frost, which one would you choose? Or is there another option?
Well there you have it. Another hegemony at work.

The UK is an independent nation. That the USA should butt in as they have done is a very bad omen. Whilst Ireland is the running dog of the EU (and France the running dog of Germany), now the EU will be the running dog of the USA.

Royally stiffed - by Ireland - are we. All because of Johnson's folly.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 12:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082473)
Well there you have it. Another hegemony at work.

The UK is an independent nation. That the USA should butt in as they have done is a very bad omen. Whilst Ireland is the running dog of the EU (and France the running dog of Germany), now the EU will be the running dog of the USA.

Royally stiffed - by Ireland - are we. All because of Johnson's folly.
We are where we are. Complaining about the PM, the US or the EU may make for jolly banter down the Constitution Club but it doesn't work for trade negotiations.

Which of the four options should we go for? Or do you have a fifth up your sleeve?

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 12:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082474)
We are where we are. Complaining about the PM, the US or the EU may make for jolly banter down the Constitution Club but it doesn't work for trade negotiations.

Which of the four options should we go for? Or do you have a fifth up your sleeve?
The difference between you and me is that I am a Leaver who is no Johnson fan and deplore the mess he's created. You are a Remainer whom I perceive is lapping up Johnson's difficulties as in "I told you so".

So, we should not give in and we should put peace in priority by not giving way to the EU's intransigence - notwithstanding the trap agreement that Boris signed. Peace there depends on friction free trade between NI and GB and signing up to EU rules and EU law is not what the UK needs.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 12:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082475)
The difference between you and me is that I am a Leaver who is no Johnson fan and deplore the mess he's created. You are a Remainer whom I perceive is lapping up Johnson's difficulties as in "I told you so".

So, we should not give in and we should put peace in priority by not giving way to the EU's intransigence - notwithstanding the trap agreement that Boris signed. Peace there depends on friction free trade between NI and GB and signing up to EU rules and EU law is not what the UK needs.
It's not about which box we ticked in 2016, it's about how we solve the current situation which we should try and face objectively.

It sounds like you are in fact suggesting Option 4. We have signed an agreement with the EU and we can't travel back in time and unsign it.
Quote:
We break an international treaty and carry on supplying NI with chilled meat products, etc past the deadline of 30th June.

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 13:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082476)
It's not about which box we ticked in 2016, it's about how we solve the current situation which we should try and face objectively.

It sounds like you are in fact suggesting Option 4. We have signed an agreement with the EU and we can't travel back in time and unsign it.
We would be breaking said treaty because the EU is being intransigent. The consequences of the EU's intransigence is unrest in NI. And yes - also the consequence of Johnson's folly.

The public will soon see this and I hope that Boris' days are numbered.

Carth 10-06-2021 13:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082478)
We would be breaking said treaty because the EU is being intransigent. The consequences of the EU's intransigence is unrest in NI. And yes - also the consequence of Johnson's folly.

The public will soon see this and I hope that Boris' days are numbered.
and his successor (whoever you want that to be) will do better because . . . ?

Hugh 10-06-2021 13:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082478)
We would be breaking said treaty because the EU is being intransigent. The consequences of the EU's intransigence is unrest in NI. And yes - also the consequence of Johnson's folly.

The public will soon see this and I hope that Boris' days are numbered.
We will be breaking the treaty because the EU is sticking to the agreement that both sides signed up to?

It wasn't just Boris - the Conservatives in Parliament agreed to it too.

Is that the grown up equivalent of "a big boy made me do it?"

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 13:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082471)
Exactly. Explaining the EU's needs (eg to maintain the integrity of Single Market) is not being unpatriotic. It is intelligence that helps you to decide how best to approach negotiations. I dread to imagine how Seph's approach would play out around some of the board rooms I've sat in. Let's just say, I would ensure my mortgage was paid off before I took such an approach!
It is unpatriotic in so far as you use it to guide "how best to approach negotiations".

You appear to want us to subscribe to EU agriculture Law and the ECJ. (Bad enough that the NI Protocol binds us to the ECJ). Brexit is about sovereignty not subservience.

On your final point, we seem to have done OK with something far worse than Brexit: the Pandemic. We'll survive and thrive by facing the EU down.

Btw, Irish pork sausages are delicious - pity about the perfidious politicians, still stuck in 1916.

1andrew1 10-06-2021 14:34
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36082479)
and his successor (whoever you want that to be) will do better because . . . ?
That's a fair call.

If you changed some of the key players be it the Prime Minister or the Chief Negotiator then you could probably get the EU to extend the deadline by a few months. But you would still be left with the same three remaining choices. On the other hand, you may have more leeway with the British public as a new PM. You could blame the current situation on your predecessor and state you had a difficult to choice to make and go for option 2 or 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36082483)
It is unpatriotic in so far as you use it to guide "how best to approach negotiations".

You appear to want us to subscribe to EU agriculture Law and the ECJ. (Bad enough that the NI Protocol binds us to the ECJ). Brexit is about sovereignty not subservience.

On your final point, we seem to have done OK with something far worse than Brexit: the Pandemic. We'll survive and thrive by facing the EU down.

Btw, Irish pork sausages are delicious - pity about the perfidious politicians, still stuck in 1916.
As jonbxx has explained, understanding your negotiating party's position is not unpatriotic it's common sense. Doesn't mean you have to agree with their position.

By typing out the four options doesn't mean I am suggesting one of them above the others. As someone who seemed genuinely upset about the situation that the UK is in, I was trying to understand which route you wished us to take. I understand it to be:
Quote:
4) We break an international treaty and carry on supplying NI with chilled meat products, etc past the deadline of 30th June.
I'm not a great sausage person I'm afraid. Too much experience of gristle and bones as a child.

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 15:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082481)
We will be breaking the treaty because the EU is sticking to the agreement that both sides signed up to?

It wasn't just Boris - the Conservatives in Parliament agreed to it too.

Is that the grown up equivalent of "a big boy made me do it?"
Doesn't make it right. It needs putting right.

papa smurf 10-06-2021 16:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082466)
Wiki states he is 5/8th’s Irish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_of_Joe_Biden
At least he's 3/8 perfect ;)

Hugh 10-06-2021 16:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36082498)
At least he's 3/8 perfect ;)
His ancestors were from the South...

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 17:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082499)
His ancestors were from the South...
... and England. Goes back some way. Indeed, the name "Biden" comes from the English leg.

For example: https://www.chichester.co.uk/news/pe...cestry-3034906

1andrew1 10-06-2021 17:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36082499)
His ancestors were from the South...
Must be a good sort then. :)

Sephiroth 10-06-2021 17:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36082501)
Must be a good sort then. :)
... if not biased. A man to beware.


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