Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its about time someone ;) mentioned the website content owners ;)

btw it slightly off topic but related and i wanted to make sure its seen but not forgotten, perhaps we need to keep an eye on William!

"Dr William Webb, head of research and development at the UK telecoms regulator, Ofcom, agreed that mobile phone data was still underexploited. "

from this, you have to wonder if they asked for consent, even if it was for research.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7433128.stm

"Mobile phones expose human habits


By Jonathan Fildes
Science and technology reporter, BBC News

The whereabouts of more than 100,000 mobile phone users have been tracked in an attempt to build a comprehensive picture of human movements. ..."

"

The new work tracked 100,000 individuals selected randomly from a sample of more than six million anonymous phone users.

Each time a participant made or received a call or text message, the location of the mobile base station relaying the data was recorded. Information was collected for six months. But, according to the researchers, a person's pattern of movement could be seen in just three."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

voted up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can I suggest that links to these relevant documents and news stories are added to the locked 'Links to protest at the possible deployment of Phorm ' thread. It takes ages scanning this thread for the links.
It has grown by six pages since yesterday already!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I spotted this myself yesterday and was suitably annoyed. The idea that people were being tracked by their phone usage makes me sick.

That being said, I must confess to be more than a little curious as to exactly what was learned about the habits of the human being from this research. It seems like the human equivalent of tagging a group of fish and tracking their movements through the oceans :)

Anyway, just to get in clear in my head now, I have to avoid the following:

1) The internet, for fear of being profiled and targetted by Phorm.
2) Mobile phones, for fear of being tracked and used as a lab rat.
3) Credit cards, for fear of being tracked by government agencies ( I have seen this in movies so it must be true ;) )

Modern life is great innit?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I assume that not many of the posters here, who are also BT shareholders, will be taking up the BT Visa Credit Card ?
It has a slogan in the offer " Bringing it all together".

Now surely that cannot mean.........That would be illegal.
I must wash my brain in distilled water for thinking such evil thoughts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this is a nice read.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog....horm-test.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not allowing BT to handle the shares in votes anymore I truly thought she had sold them all when the 02 shares had to be sold years ago.

I have a responsible person going this years AGM with proxy for the votes who will be asking questions. I am here to help not be attacked for owning shares that are not in my name but an 86 yr old women who just happens to be my mother. She thought sadly that the shares would be worth enough to pay for her funeral... Apparently that was the only reason she kept them few years back she could have sold them for over £1,000 today they are worth nearer £600.

There are many shareholders who due to financial reasons or health cannot make it to AGM's. That doesn't mean they are all bad and support Phorm my mother has no idea of what phorm can do she isn't IT literate and has never used a computer. She only had internet at her home 2 yrs ago when her son moved back in to help look after her with me.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 ----------


No Thanks for now the shares are just being used to try to stop phorm not sure if it wil work but might cause enough publiciuty to warn others about phorm and get people deciding to not opt-in.

BT have bought many shares for the treasury so looks like they trying to be sure if a large number of voting share holders vote against they have nearly as many shares in treasury.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a quick note to say fantastic job Alex - see you at the demo

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

<Tin hat>

Why won't the authorities investigate the illegal phone taps?

Could it be that they don't want the lid lifted on this area in case their own dirty secrets come to light?

</Tin hat>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have edited the first part of the article temporarily until such time as I am sure I have the truth on the situation. I have given Kent/BT a right of reply to clarify the issue of the charity ads.

Maybe I was a little overzealous but hey both side have been guilty from that now haven't they?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe anti-virus companies who are considering not to detect the webwise cookies should rethink. Maybe your perceptions has been manipulated here.

"121Media will take action (both technical and in public relations) to avoid any perception that their system is a virus, malware or spyware and to show that in effect is a positive web-development."

Success Criteria and Summary results:

"Confirm no compatibility issues with different types of operating systems & browsers & virus protection applications"

Result: Compliant.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Alex

From PlusNet Community Forum
Posted by: MickKi
My Bold

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So rather than address the negative concerns of the users who DID detect the system, their strategy was to ensure that it was better hidden from them in future. This obsession with hiding the system occurs many times throughout the initial part of the report and goes completely against their claim of 'Openness and Transparency'.

Thanks for this 'Anorak in Chief', ammunition very much appreciated by all who are fighting for EVERYONES privacy.

And thanks to the WB at BT too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hang on a mo alex, at least you have admitted you "MAY" have made an honest mistake and given BT and PHORM the right to reply,

can't see them doing the honorable thing and coming clean on anything shortly,

so in my eyes (and probably most others ) you are way ahead in both credability and honesty stakes

,

also just seen this over on BT forums, reference your document re 2006 trials

do i detect a softening of the moderators over there? are they doing their own digging and not liking what they find so are now "mildly" sympathetic to us?

peter

************at http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=750&tstart=0

We won't be deleting links about or discussion of this document, just like we haven't deleted discussion of any previous documents such as the one published on the Register a few months ago. As long as people stick to our forum rules and guidelines, i.e. keep it civil and don't attack other users, we won't have to moderate any posts.

Community Rules and Guidelines

Thanks

Mark Wilkin
Support Community Coordinator

**********

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex, can you give some details about pages 50-52? What is Section 6 - Download Targets?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

#1 - Well done to the person who leaked this document. Hopefully by now you were fully aware of the potential consequences of doing so and have taken steps to remain anonymous. (I was remarkably naive in this regard :) )

#2 - Well done Alex for getting this into the public domain. I'll be there next month.

#3 - I've analysed the document and have a few points to make over and above what Alex and others have already pointed out.

- p5, para 8 - Broadband Terms and Conditions
Read - we want to do this thing by stealth.

- p6, para 5 - Network Components
- p7, para 3 - Advertising Method and Campaign
This reference to 10000 users is then used throughout the rest of the document.

In fact, on p45 the table that references how many users were part of trial we see
which were presumably a large subset of the days total ip's tracked : ~So, considering that BT have claimed that they could not and did not know who was part of the trial, this document proves that claim to be false.
Furthermore, p13, para 9 - Observations and Exhibits Whilst these 15-20 trialists reported the problems they were seeing via the message boards, the table at the top of p13 details a requirement for tranparancy, with the success criteria being - with the result being yet document claims (para 8 same page) Not exactly consistant there is it?

Sorry if this is getting tedious, but there's so much more wrong with this than I can readily assimilate. Read on..

-p14, para 1, Really? The phrase "no ****, Sherlock" springs to mind.

And the part that will really fry them..
-p14, para 3 - Source IP address Change
So, their claim that the system does not store IP addresses is patently false. Not only do they see them, they have to store them so the the traffic collected on behalf of the user can be sent back to their REAL ip address. This is known in the trade as a 'state table' which holds session information for proxied connections which includes the source ip address of the originator.

Also, on p21 there is a table that lists different types of traffic flows and what the system does with that traffic in each case and lists whether or not advert injection was successful.

Entries 12 and 16 are noteworthy..
So, BT, care to explain how you know that the system successfully injects adverts into these sites? Is M$ and Youtube+others aware you were diverting their revenue streams for the purposes of your trial? Fraud and deception are the keywords your lawers will need to be looking up here.

-p22, para 3 To quote the vernacular - **** me backwards! 21CN is a wholesale network as far as I'm aware. What the hell is BT Retail thinking of here? The number of projected servers they need to run this kit is in the region of 300 servers, and mention is made of having to find suitable places to host the equipment. Good luck with that. I know for a fact that your latest datacenter at Rochdale is already pretty much fully subscribed, and unless you take all that reserved space for NHS off them you aren't getting it into Cardiff either (which for those of you not familiar with BT is their main 21CN site). 300 servers? hahahahahaha. Most BT datacenters are running out of/or have run out of power. Unless the Rochdale site is fully subscribed *because* of this project, I don't see where you're going to put this stuff anyway.

Lastly, but not leastly, security.
p41, para 3 - Observations and Exhibits
So, when you mentioned before that Phorm would be managing the kit on your behalf, I suppose you meant that you are going to let them have access to the BT network then? Either that or you will be managing the kit yourselves, which you said you weren't doing (can't remember the reason why but it was something to do with you not being able to run the kit yourselfs due to regulations - someone help me here please.)

The next para also says You mean the firewalls don't you? But how the hell will it protect from DDoS attacks? Take the system down and you take BT down. ****, everyone one this site please stop protesting and actually let them put this in place. It'll last about 10 minutes but the fireworks will be spectacular. Headline : DDoS hits 3.5 million ADSL users!


It is clear to me that BT have performed a lot of due diligence regarding the technical implementation of the platform, there is evidence in the document showing this. The fact that there are sections clearly stating the system is 'opt-out only' and that they knew that even opted out customers were intercepted shows that the legal advice they sought was either ficticious or completely wrong, why else would they have re-designed the system to be 'opt-in'. They are chasing their tails on this one.

If they had dropped it right at the start they *may* have avoided a lot of this. Now they are well and truly fsck'd.

Oh, very lastly, I though the system was supposed to ignore search fields?
p43, para2 Alex, I'm assuming this is the basis of contact with Google's lawyers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

not a sofening, mearly a known fact that thread is being closely monitored and many posts echoed here on CF, its a simple PR trick to keep the lights on and look like they are being fair.

lets face it the mere fact he had to say "We won't be deleting links about or discussion of this document" means they have been doing so at other times, and if you beleave the regular users there it appears this and other options (banning and moving posts etc)have been used time and again!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeah i know the forum is being tightly monitored as one of the users is on a final warning and he posts over here as well. but mark w has been strangly silent of late and no PR rubbish from the other BT guy adam whats his name

i agree they seem to be trying not to crack down to much so as not to be seen to orwellian and bring out the thought police

i think BT are still hoping to bring in webwise and that the reduced revenues will more than offset the lose or revenue of users leaving due to this spy system just not the level they hoped for .

i would like to see the BT balance sheet entries for income from phorm and income from broadband sales for present and six months time, as well as the % of users who actually opt in and stay opted in for more than a few weeks

any one over here an investor, can you request that info as an investor?

can you ask at the agm

1: for projected profit from webwise and how the opt-in requirement has affected that projection

2: cost of the trials and setup of the webwise system, including costs associated with the redesign to allow for the opt-in

3: what is the projected loss of income from users leaving BT due to webwise being implimented

legit questions for an AGM i believe

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many of the major anti-virus applications are negotiable on commercial applications. They are reluctant to classify the products of a "legitimate" commercial entity as malware. Particularly when both companies/corporations trade in the same country. The Sony rootkit debacle was one example of that. Several AVs knew about it and didn't classify it as malware until it got a lot of negative publicity.

I'm hoping negative publicity will do something similar with Phorm, NebuAd and the rest of the wannabes. It's the same companies that were found to be "stealth install" malware purveyors 2 or 3 years ago that are suddenly selling a new "commercially" acceptable "solution". I hate management-speak.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an article due out in ComputerActive today, I won't have a chance to get into town and pick it up, but I am pretty sure it should be on the shelves today. There will also be a longer article on ComputerActive's web site some time this afternoon.

Also I believe it is tomorrow that an article gets published in the Economist so keep an eye out for that one too.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anybody ever comment here?

http://www.lse.co.uk/shareprice.asp?...sd0.001_(reg_s)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To be quite frank its desturbing the way things are moving.

Mobile phones, internet. Wait did you see the cable conference recently a few new cable boxes can target advertising to that user.

Also something which I found out about how the GPS sat navs systems work.

Turns out some makes of car manufacturers agreed for some time to have a GPS system placed in the cars such as BMW, vauxall and they track those cars. Those cars are then monitored and when they are stuck in jams or slow moving ithe company which provides the TMC traffic data flags the problems and then send out those tmc data. I think they also use mobile phones too to help collate this information. As well using sensors in the roads to compile traffic issues and Highways agency list of roadworks.

So its not always a bad thing monitoring but certain monitoring is blatantly intrusive. I would be very worried also about the next gen cable boxes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I emailed Mark W forum moderator last night to ask for an official moderator response on how we dealt with the document. Given that it is a leaked BT document and some of us have moderation final warnings on our Beta forum records with regard to Webwise, I wanted to get either official approval to link and quote from the document, or official refusal (which would be equally valuable for it's newsworthiness!)

I'm grateful for the official response from Mark W and have posted my thanks on BT beta forums along with a detailed summary of the key (non-technical) points, with page numbers and quotes - to make it more accessible to the boss eyed and wearers of varifocals.
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=24906#24906

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

one of many in the near future i hope , this might inspire the insiders with access to also have a root through the records and pas them along to Alexander too, some VM ,CPW,and even 121/phorm if there are any good people that want to help uphold the users rights with access there.

come on annonymouse readers, please dig deep and find and reproduce those other smoking gun documants that are there for the taking...

perhaps even the 3rd party PR firms have some interesting related documents? ;)

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

more than that it puts "121Media" and their "conducted an initial cookie drop exercise" directly in the frame, and BT as their accomplice to this act ,see Alexanders PDF paper for several choices of act broken etc.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

LOL ;) , yes it can be a bit of a slug, the best way to do it is open a digg page ,log in, then open the required page in a seperate page to be sure the system knows your loged in , that worked for me when its going real slow...:)

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

and Current.Tv'ed
http://current.com/items/89001700_th...acts_in_8_days

no sign of a cableforum news as yet though, Mick? :confused:
and other than one Spy Blog entry on the main world wide news wires theres still nothing there, we need the cable forum news post to get it there......someone write one up and pass it to the CF mod's to put up...:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Was the initial cookie drop just for the people they were intending to trial, all BT users, or for everybody?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that was an interesting comment by +Zer0Day
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.ph...st&p=589456673

"
Wow, if this true, and I have my doubts until I see the document myself or its reported in are reliable media outlet, site owners have the right to be ****ed. BT sticking their ads in without permission, isn't that interception of communication, and isn't making a modification to communication illegal?
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am speculating here but I am presuming all BT retail customers since the trials had not begun yet and BT have stated they have no idea who was involved in the trials, so in my mind I don't see how it could have been predetermined.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

direct URL please.....?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I imagine it would have affected anyoone visiting those "popular 3rd party websites" and the estimate in the report was that of their 10,000 triallists, 7,000 were successfully seeded with the cookie. I imagine one would have to project upwards to work out how many people overall got those cookies - but then that is happening all the time anyway. On it's own it isn't so heinous (although a site should declare it's cookie policy - hopefully these 3rd party popular sites did have a cookie policy that users could access), but when you see the admission in the document that it was being done to subvert the BT T&C's it becomes very damning indeed and I'm looking forward to seeing a BT director explain it on TV (or more preferable, in front of a Parliamentary committee - one with Lord Northesk on it?, and then eventually, in front of a jury).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

direct URL please...?

this thread is suposed to be the definative guide to Phorm and the Phormetts (hence why i invite everyone here to read and contribute).

we really need to be filling in the direct URLs and a section of the post if its different to the original linked stories so we can decide to read on, or click and divert at the time of reading etc...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an article on the reg about how ISPs are trying to repair their damaged public image due to mis-selling of broadband services by advertising speeds that are rarely attainable.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...code_practice/

I wonder how much damge this whole Phorm debacle will cause and what they will be doing to repair that public image disaster :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No worries, BT will host it on 'ThePlanet' or 'Gyron' or 'Fasthost'... anywhere really. Whos going to know? ;)
^flippant remark^
---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

A document detailing the 2007 BT trials would be very handy........;)

I envisage a lot of scurrying around at BT land... shredders at the ready!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OI!:mad:;)

Anyway, they're good for small component work.

And precise close up body strikes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm, not sure how well that would integrate into 21CN :flyingpig:

hey, where's my flying pig smilie? :bsmack:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's cheating! Still, nice piggie :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unfortunately, Neowinians have a tendency to shout "source" for every story they see, and it has to be an official source, i.e. Microsoft story on an MS site, etc, or they just cry "not true".

I don't think they get the concept of a 'leaked' document, sometimes.

OB

btw. I'm actually disappointed at the lack of replies to my post, so far.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wear em myself !

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

So some targeted ads on shredders would enhance their "sensitive document disposal experience"?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How is it that stories with only 50 Digg's can make the font page, yet the BT Report can't?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That was a well written post over on the BT forums Mr Jones.

It will be interesting to read the responses from BT https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/43.gif

---------- Post added at 14:18 ---------- Previous post was at 14:17 ----------

I was thinking the very same! How does Digg work?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mr Hanff

Will the Reigster run with this leaked document story ?

nothing done yet !!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe we need to put a lolcat or Pron in the title :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah there is something not right. Most commented article in the Technology category and about 4th in the popularity filter yet still not "popular".

The /. article has been marked as hot since about 6:40am too and is still not published. This concerns me and whereas I don't want to accuse either site of being in Phorm's pocket it is odd that not a single Digg article has gone "Popular" and as far as I know most if not all articles posted to /. have so far been blocked by the mods.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:25 ---------- Previous post was at 14:22 ----------

Chris Williams already has the document and has referenced it in a previous article, so I presume he covered everything he regarded as news worthy already. There is a big difference between Chris posting a news article on El Reg with word restrictions/management and me posting reasonably freely on the nodpi site with no word restrictions and only my conscience.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was wondering about this, too.

Is this a list of where Phorm bought advertising space to drop cookies?
Is it a list of sites working with Phorm?

Any ideas, anyone?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

weired 5 retries to post then

what would the best way to get cookies into bt users pc, bt yahoo web page maybe, its full of them and once bt user logged in to their a/c via bt yahoo then its easy the drop them i would think.

only logical way i can see it happening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is unclear, I never saw that list referenced anywhere else in the document so I have no idea what it is for. Badphorm are equally puzzled on this.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding that post, how easy is it to change ""careful handling" to: "special handling"

Historians will know what I mean.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any idea which one?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a link to my del.icio.us bookmarks there's all sorts of phorm/privacy related stuff in there most of it covered here already but maybe of some use along with a fair amount of non phorm related stuff.

http://del.icio.us/sirusx

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

digg: I suspect they have some kind of sandboxing going on to prevent spammers manipulating the site.

unfortunately it looks as if rapid digging emanating from one link source (say nodpi or here) incurs a penalty.

Far better to post a link to the digg article from many different sites rather than dozens here clicking the same link and then digging.

---

Further to the above just found some more suggestions:

* Mail users the link and get them to dig it via the mail link
* Locate the story from the Digg/Upcoming queue and tell people to digg it from there.
* On your page use the official "Digg This" icon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone get in touch with hackeron (Roman G) who was involved in getting the kit installed @ BT for the trials ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also be wise to not click but copy and paste in the bar.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That was how I did my digg.


:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I've no idea. I can't seem to find any reference to it in any phorm related articles posted since the document was leaked.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for the kind remarks - but don't hold your breath, BT don't DO responses, especially not to customers.
the last time they answered a question on those forums about BT Webwise, was 2nd April.

I've tried to make the document accessible to those who haven't the stamina to read right through it. Emma Sanderson has accused me of having a "voracious appetite for detail" so I don't like to disappoint her.

I just wish it had some publicity outside of our own campaign. that's been very disappointing.

Who in the media HAVE ben told about this (of those who have already shown an interest in the past)? Maybe we should just do a check list to make sure we haven't missed any obvious contacts.

Guardian (Charles Arthur)?
Click?
Gadget show?
Cable News?

And official bodies - anyone referencing it in an ICO complaint?
(I've got a pending complaint so will definitely be referencing it)
Obviously Alex is adding it to his Charing X police file for the 16th July.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, I have sent an e-mail to the News Editor of Web-User this afternoon with the latest news.


Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is not meant in any way as an attack on you or your mother for BT share ownership. I have also at times in my past owned them and if I owned them now would consider the activism route you are, not selling them in disgust, the market really does not care why you are selling 200 shares it would take a Fidelity to ditch BT over this for the market to sit up and take note.

I am trying (and I guess failing) to educate you in the difference between ownership and control of a legal entity, rather boring and technical but important nonetheless. Your mother as an owner of BT shares could never suffer any liability (just financial loss of the value of her shares) as a result of these actions of BT as she is just an owner. The Board, the controllers could however suffer personal loss for criminal activity, just as members of the BAA board have recently been held by the US government for questioning and the NatWest 3 went to prison.

Wiki on Corporations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation and on ownership and control http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...ip_and_control

What can happen to you if you are an officer of a company and are found to break the law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NatWest_Three
The NatWest Three, also known as the Enron Three,[1] are three British businessmen - Giles Darby, David Bermingham and Gary Mulgrew. In 2002 they were indicted in Houston, Texas on seven counts of wire fraud against their former employer Greenwich NatWest, at the time a division of National Westminster Bank.[2] After a high-profile battle in the British courts they were extradited from the United Kingdom to the United States in 2006. On November 28, 2007, they each pleaded guilty to one count of wire fraud in exchange for the other charges being dropped.[3] On February 22, 2008 they were each sentenced to 37 months in prison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Sys...bian_contracts
On 19 May 2008 BAE confirmed that its CEO Mike Turner and non-executive director Nigel Rudd had been detained "for about 20 minutes" at George Bush Intercontinental and Newark airports respectively the previous week and that the DOJ had issued "a number of additional subpoenas in the US to employees of BAE Systems plc and BAE Systems Inc as part of its ongoing investigation".[118] The Times suggests that, according to Alexandra Wrage of Trace International, such "humiliating behaviour by the DOJ" is unusual toward a company that is co-operating fully.[118]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've emailed Charles Arthur (Guardian) with the various links.
I've contacted my MP (EDM signatory) asking for her to alert Don Foster
I've sent a further email to MEP's for my region (second one on this topic) (using writetothem.com )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

posted a comment and link to the 2006 article of alex's

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, the news item has arrived in Computer Active as Alex said. -

http://www.computeractive.co.uk/comp...prompt-protest

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/ > scroll down. At least it is linked from the front page today.
Top technology article today.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7438578.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At last - the leaked trial document got to the mainstream media
BBC Technology - you just beat me to it. I was visiting the page to see if it was there, if not to send them details.
And I've dugged it/digged it/stuck a spade in it/whatever.

I've also sent that link to the Today programme.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's the first article the beeb have published since 22 April.

Their coverage of this scandal has been lamentable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can someone help me out here.

I've been trying to search on Digg for the article that Alex wrote..

"http://digg.com/tech_news/BT_commited_113_million_allegedly_illegal_acts_in_ 8_days"

by using various search terms. Nothing, nada. It says something about trying to search in 'upcoming stories' but that doesn't work either.

How would I find this without the direct link?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It got buried.

You need to check the box Include Buried Stories.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

iPM? If Today won't pick it up we might be able to get it on iPM on 7 June.

BBC is supposedly "free from both political and commercial influence and answers only to its viewers and listeners".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had no joy with digg's search mechanism. Slapping this "site:digg.com bt trials illegal" into google did work, however, not the point I know.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First - that didn't work either. I clicked the box marked 'upcoming' on the upper rhs of the page and then searched, but once in the searach area there isn't anything that mentions 'upcoming'

second - why is it buried? Not sure I understand digg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try this search term:

It searches in All sections, all area, search-buried, and ranks by number of diggs.

http://digg.com/search?s=Phorm&submi...=all&sort=most

As for it being buried I think we must have tripped one of the spam traps. Digg won't give reasons why or if individuals buried it, or if it is just temporarily suspended and will be released again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, I see where I was going wrong now :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That search worked I copied and pasted and it hads part hidden so didnt work first time :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given this, if a URL to digg is posted in future, should we :-

Copy the URL.
Visit a random site elsewhere.
Paste the Digg URL and digg from there.

Presumably the refering site would then be the random site visited?

We need to try to clarify this else there will be a lot of wasted effort/opportunity.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would suggest either of the following:

* Clicking on the Digg link direct from the article page. (Note that the article should also display the Digg Icon. Not for brownie points but so that Digg regulars will be inclined to dig it - like a prompt to action).

or

* Visiting the Digg homepage, navigating to where the digg article is (upcoming, technology) and digging there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just mailed iPM 'suggest a story';

ipm { at } bbc.co.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7438578.stm
good article from the BBC.. at last!

Would someone at BT care to state who exactly provided this 'expert legal advice'?

We already know the 'due dilligance' was provided by Dun & Bradstreet

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let's try Frank's first suggestion using the digg option from the BBC article.

(Near the bottom)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7438578.stm

Not many diggs yet, use it as a trial.

EDIT : I don't know what effect digging the comments has on any potential sandboxing. It might be best to limit yourself to just a couple of comment diggs? Maybe a digg up of a positive comment and a digg down of a negative comment?

We need to find out how it works and how to reliably get an item 'up there'.

I know that last night I dug every comment and that was probably a mistake.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see that now that this latest news has hit the BBC Technology News, it actually appears on the default BT Yahoo home page. So providing that users have not changed the default settings it will spread the word very rapidly to those that were until recently totally unaware.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Snap, I did the same.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See my latest article on NoDPI here:

http://nodpi.org/?p=11

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have read it and hope for your sake that Phorm now back off, for what was obviously a genuine mistake from the facts given. I actually read it the same as you did, but it was not until others questioned it, that I read and re-read it over and over again and eventually came to the opposite conclusion.
I am sure that everybody will back you to the hilt on this.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just a quick question Alexander.

my brother uses sky for tv and broadband.
so sky use the BT system for its broadband service,is he safe from all this or is the whole BT system unsafe.

Thank You for all your hard work for us the users of the internet.

best of luck
Phil:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am with you mate.

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Setting the lawyers onto a 1 man blog, good image to generate a company who need to win over internet users. Kent really is his own worst enemy; at least his PR company (which I assume whos contract ended some weeks ago) didn't make quite a social faux pas.
A fine line between slander and free speech and I don't think you crossed into the wrong side of it personally, Alexander. However, good show of character of throwing up hands and admitting so regardless. A shame we are still yet to see any good will coming from the other camps (broken promises of complete transparency (Phorm & BT), promised and then later withheld video (Phorm), no comment on releasing PIA once completed (Phorm), disregard for customer's concerns and requests regarding their source of (what so for appears to be ficticious) confirmed legal compliance (Phorm, BT & VM).

Lol - I also now see the irnoy in this aggression towards a single blogger - isn't Webwise allegedly desined to help the internet hobbyist webmaster? Kent, you are threatening to sue the very people your sales pitch claims to be aimed at.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well as everyone knows here, my original statement was opinion only and I made it clear that BT/Phorm needed to clarify the issue. I even updated the post to include and alternative interpretation yesterday evening and of course retracted the statement this morning before BT or Phorm had contacted me on the issue. So I fail to see how it can be classed as defamation given that at no point did I make a statement of fact, my statements were not malicious and I removed the statement under my own judgement and not as a result of any legal threats (which I had not received at that point), so I clearly made a genuine effort to prevent damage to Phorm and BT's reputations.

We will have to wait and see. I have no doubts that they will actually sue me and I will have to take that on the chin, although I fail to see what they plan to achieve given that I literally have no worth (no assets and no income).

I will make sure I keep you all updated.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Which part of "the advertisements were used to replaced [sic] a 'default' charity advertisement" have I not understood.

Replacing 'worthless' charity ads with holiday ads, pet insurance, banks, and Weight Watchers ads is simply sick.

I don't care who paid, I don't care how the campaign was structured, I don't care which agency. :sick:

Bill Hicks hit it on the nail. (warning strong language)

Unbelievable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wow,

Seems like you made a mistake and were man enough to admit to it, no big deal, no damage done. I hope they do indeed back off, although that would involve having a modicum of sense and an ability to show an understanding of the public's attitude from a PR point of view (Something both BT and Phorm have so far failed to do). If they do pursue you I'm sure there are enough people who support you to make it an absolute PR nightmare for them.

I just don't understand the world sometime, it seems it's OK for a huge corporation like BT, with the assistance of evil empire Phorm, to break the law millions of times with what appears to be no repercussions and a distinct lack of interest from the home office, yet the one time you step out of line (in their opinion) and they instantly look into suing you. You better be careful Alex, I hear Kent will be pushing for the death penalty ;)

Anyway, hope it works out ok.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alex.Its takes a big man to stand up and admit when they got something wrong and its nice to see that those people still exist in the world.

In all fairness, that document was a bit wordy and in places seemed as though it didn't quite know what it was saying or how to say it, so a small misinterpretation can be forgiven.

It does go to show, however, that people are watching each and every move made by people involved in this campaign and as such, it may be prudent for everyone involved to stand back from time to time and ensure that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot.

I think a Winston Churchill quote fits this situation rather well: 'Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.'

I hope that this little setback does not put anyone off of continuing the fight.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now that made me laugh Alexander the fact phorms only reputation is in the murky past rootkit so nothing there to lose shame BT had to get burnt though mind if you play with fire you wil get burnt.

What I found interesting is the 21cn stuff....

Now what are Kents plans on that front since most will be other ISPs I intend to repl;y to Emma tonight then flurt a few emails off to a few larger independant ISPs who use BT backbone.

Think Kent was concerned that Google might be taking him to task over adverts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It takes a lot more than legal threats to make me back down, so don't worry about that.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to prosicute Aleaxander would put the phorm webwise debait right out in the open and would be seen by many as the big cheese hiding something from those who are new to the circut totally bad publicity for Kent and BT.

Would hit the new properly and that is what they don't want really since the 30,000 internet users who dont know how it works would be able to read the news of this large company and Bt suing the small person so would start totake an interst in what it is about. They might learn too soon for BT that phorm/webwise is bad news...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Added the following to the DIGG comments

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Men hold their hands up and admit mistakes. You've done that Alexander.

If the BT/Phorm juggernaut continue with the legal threats, it's for one reason only; they want to shut you up.

It was always going to get nasty and this just shows how worried they are.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree, it quite frankly stinks that they have resorted to legal threats (and ironic as someone already pointed out). The statement has been retracted and an apology made (and I echo the supportive comments made already) and I hope that they do the sensible thing and pursue it no further.

Now perhaps BT/Phorm would afford us the same courtesy and explain why they told the ICO that the trial was anonymous when it wasn't (they knew the ip addresses of those participating) and why they also told the ICO that no ads were served during the trial when it is quite clear in the document that they did serve ads (which by taking the steps they have done today they are confirming was the case).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think a link to the leaked document should go to the ICO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OhMeGod !!

Just remembered.

I sent all the details to Private Eye. :D:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

cant see them going all the way in taking you to court on this as you point out they said they didn't use adds

in court they would be hard pushed given that they have denied they used adds in expecting any one to assume that those adds mentioned were anything to do with them let alone being bought and used by them

don't think even to most out off touch judges or sceptical juries would see it their way


plus from the point of view of what they told other people it now seems they wont be able to say we didnt know as they had the information to counter your statements so fast it hardly seems it was hard for them to find !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol I have been reading my literature on children with special needs compulsive disorders and dyslexia.

Ok first, children with special needs many are hyper active unable to concentrate for more than a few mins. Making reading the opt-in or opt-out of webwise impossible to them plus the name is one that has been used for children’s learning with BBC so would confuse them.
Second, Dyslexia The most common learning disability is dyslexia. A person with dyslexia has difficulty with language skills, especially reading. The International Dyslexia Association says studies in different countries generally show that four to seven percent of people are dyslexic.
Dyslexia most commonly affects reading, spelling and writing. Some people have problems with only one of these. Others have trouble with spoken language. They find it difficult to express themselves clearly or understand what other people say.

Third, Obsessive-compulsive disorder or over-compulsive disorder[citation needed] (OCD) is a psychiatric anxiety disorder most commonly characterized by a subject's obsessive, distressing, intrusive thoughts and related compulsions (tasks or "rituals") which attempt to neutralize the obsessions.
The phrase "obsessive-compulsive" has worked its way into the wider English lexicon, and is often used in an offhand manner to describe someone who is meticulous or absorbed in a cause (see "anal retentive")[1]. Such casual references should not be confused with obsessive-compulsive disorder; see clinomorphism. OCD is distinguished from other types of anxiety, including the routine tension and stress that appear throughout life. Although these signs are often present in OCD, a person who shows signs of infatuation or fixation with a subject/object, or displays traits such as perfectionism, does not necessarily have OCD, a specific and well-defined condition.
There are people that if shown lots of adverts are compelled to buy and cannot control the urges to buy.
How do I prevent shopping binges?
Pay for purchases by cash, check, debit card.
Make a shopping list and only buy what is on the list.
Destroy all credit cards except one to be used for emergency only.
Avoid discount warehouses. Allocate only a certain amount of cash to be spent if you do visit one.
"Window shop" only after stores have closed. If you do "look" during the day, leave your wallet at home.
Avoid phoning in catalog orders and don't watch TV shopping channels. this would need adding cancel your BT broadband as this would no longer be a safe haven.
If you're traveling to visit friends or reltives, have your gifts wrapped and call the project finished; people tend to make more extraneous purchases when they shop outside their own communities.
Take a walk or exercise when the urge to shop comes on.
If you feel out of control, you probably are. Seek counseling or a support group such as Debtors Anonymous.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope Frank Rizzo is reading all this. He now has the proof he wanted to take back to the ICO. Ironically, the Tech Support he got was correct; he did have a spyware/adware problem. AND his pages were injected with javascript, and BT did know all about it, and... etc, etc. :D

OB

btw. Does anyone here have links to the stories about Kent's mob having to shut down some of his old businesses after the U.S. Legal Authorities were after him? I did have them, but seem to have lost them and it would be nice to remind him that he's not exactly averse to breaking the odd law himself.

Anyway, as far as I know (IANAL), stating an opinion and then withdrawing that opinion (like Mr Hanff did) is, (and this is for you, Emma S), "err... umm... stumble, stumble, blah, blah, drone, waffle, err... ummm... it's not illegal". You'd get laughed out of court IMHO.

Sounds to me like sour grapes because you've all been caught. :mad: :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To be honest I would rather be financially bankrupt than morally and/or ethically bankrupt.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 02:51 ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 ----------

OK I have compiled a list of posts from this forum which reference the charity ads and asked Mick to remove them. They are not all my posts so I want to put a list here for people so if they object to one of their posts being removed they can contact Mick and ask him not to.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post7997.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8000.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8001.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8004.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8007.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8015.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8035.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8038.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8039.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8045.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8049.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8065.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8067.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8069.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8070.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8071.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8072.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8073.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8074.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8076.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8077.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8078.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8081.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8089.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8090.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8095.html
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post8106.html

Alexander Hanff