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-   -   The state benefits system mega-thread. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33692770)

Ignitionnet 13-05-2014 10:52
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697777)
No one demonises genuine clamaints, but benefit fraud is vile and disgusting. Workers/tax payers do not begrudge the benefit system. Once my tax is paid its paid, I'm not getting it back no matter what it is spent on. Even if the benefit system was shut down you just know taxes wouldn't be reduced.

What annoys everyone (not just workers) is benefit fraudsters who literally stop the NHS affording life saving/life extending drugs, they stop disabled people getting the care and help they need. They prevent social services having the funds to help everyone who needs help.

Thats why people despise benefit fraudsters and cheats, it is about as low as someone can get. Literally preventing someone getting life saving/life changing help. When someone is prepared let others suffer in pain or go without the help they desperately need just because they don't want to get a job, well that is vile! Like I said no one begrudges the system, we have to pay the taxes wether there is a benefit system or not, we just find it hard to believe another person would happily sit back and take funds causing others suffer knowing they are partly to blame.
So £5.2 billion is 'literally preventing someone getting life saving/life changing help' while you've no comment on £69.9 billion.

The NHS's funding isn't going to miraculously go up even if welfare fraud stops right now, it'd be used to plug the spending deficit or urinated away on one of the government's pet projects.

Qtx 13-05-2014 10:57
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
The Conservatives are solely responsible for the cuts to the NHS they are making.

Quote:
In total 76 MPs have recent past or present financial links to companies or individuals involved in private healthcare. Of them, 61 are Conservative MPs, 8 are Labour MPs, and 4 are Liberal Democrats, leaving 1 other from the Bishops. This means, 81% of MPs with these links are Conservative.
Add 120 Lords in to that equation and then rethink why they are destroying the NHS.

Bogof 13-05-2014 10:59
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
I'm sorry but benefit theft will prevent people from getting the help they need, avoiding tax is one thing. But actively stealing from a fund put in place to help the sick, disabled and those in need is lower than low.

Tax avoidance is also wrong, but benefit fraud really is stealing from the sick and ill. An do you really think this £69 billion will go to the welfare budget? No like you said it will plug holes. So stealing benefits is still a bigger issue.

Cutting the £5.2billion direct theft from the welfare budget will help those in need a lot more than stopping tax avoidance. Welfare spending will not get a £5 billion funding increase if the £69billion is clawed back. Stop the fraud you effectively give the welfare budget an extra £5billion a year.

tizmeinnit 13-05-2014 11:01
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35697761)
Benefits are a small percentage of what tax gets spent on. There are plenty of other areas where the government wastes money.

I hit the highest tax bracket 15 years ago and hated as much as the next man the fact so much was taken from my salary. Before then I let someone else be on call sometimes to stop myself hitting the limit and end up with less money due to the extra tax percentage. So doing things to maximise your cash is natural but the extremely wealthy go way beyond that with their avoidance and it's not right they end up paying such a small percentage of tax compared to someone on an average wage.

The playing field is unbalanced in favour of the wealthy.

---------- Post added at 08:10 ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 ----------



It's because those in genuine need or ill get lumped together with the fraudsters and whenever benefit fraud is discussed, which demonises those who have done no wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35697778)
Most of the welfare bill goes to pensioners. Next stereotype please.
exactly people seem to think all the money goes to the sick and unemployed. Well those who think that are morons.

As Ig says the state pension as I have stated countless times and got the same well we earned it response costs tens of billions more than the sick and unemployed

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697782)
I'm sorry but benefit theft will prevent people from getting the help they need, avoiding tax is one thing. But actively stealing from a fund put in place to help the sick, disabled and those in need is lower than low.

Tax avoidance is also wrong, but benefit fraud really is stealing from the sick and ill. An do you really think this £69 billion will go to the welfare budget? No like you said it will plug holes. So stealing benefits is still a bigger issue.
avoiding tax stops the country getting what it needs stealing from the sick and ill elderly and poor

Bogof 13-05-2014 11:06
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
No it doesn't, stopping tax avoidance helps lower deficits but the welfare budget will not rise. Its fraud crippling the NHS and the Welfare system.

Out of the £5.2billion fraud the welfare system suffers every year, how much is down to pensioners fraudulantly claiming a pension? I cannot believe people would begrudge pensioners a pension. The benefit system has bred a generation of hateful, selfish over entitled arse holes.

Mr Angry 13-05-2014 11:18
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697786)
I cannot believe people would begrudge pensioners a pension.
Clearly that's part of the reason the Government continues to increase the pension age. I agree, it's disgraceful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697786)
The benefit system has bred a generation of hateful, selfish over entitled arse holes.
And I thought my opinon of MPs was low.

Ignitionnet 13-05-2014 11:18
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697782)
I'm sorry but benefit theft will prevent people from getting the help they need, avoiding tax is one thing. But actively stealing from a fund put in place to help the sick, disabled and those in need is lower than low.

Tax avoidance is also wrong, but benefit fraud really is stealing from the sick and ill. An do you really think this £69 billion will go to the welfare budget? No like you said it will plug holes. So stealing benefits is still a bigger issue.

Cutting the £5.2billion direct theft from the welfare budget will help those in need a lot more than stopping tax avoidance. Welfare spending will not get a £5 billion funding increase if the £69billion is clawed back. Stop the fraud you effectively give the welfare budget an extra £5billion a year.
No matter how many times I read the above it makes no sense. You seem to think there's a ring-fenced fund for welfare and without fraud there's more money to go around to everything else.

Welfare isn't a fund, it's a pay as you go from incoming taxes. There is no fixed welfare budget which all welfare and fraud comes from, it's paid out of current tax revenues. If the welfare budget comes in lower than expected for a year the left overs don't get redistributed to claimants.

What completely undermines your point is that the government is going in hard against welfare fraud and overpayments. The savings are going to plugging overspend across government, not to providing more money for the NHS or care.

tizmeinnit 13-05-2014 11:21
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697786)
No it doesn't, stopping tax avoidance helps lower deficits but the welfare budget will not rise. Its fraud crippling the NHS and the Welfare system.
Out of the £5.2billion fraud the welfare system suffers every year, how much is down to pensioners fraudulantly claiming a pension? I cannot believe people would begrudge pensioners a pension. The benefit system has bred a generation of hateful, selfish over entitled arse holes.
the tax avoidance money could be put anywhere it does recovered tax would not automatically go to paying debts

Ignitionnet 13-05-2014 11:23
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogof (Post 35697786)
I cannot believe people would begrudge pensioners a pension. The benefit system has bred a generation of hateful, selfish over entitled <censored>.
Me neither, which makes it all the more bizarre that people jump up and down about the welfare bill when most of it is going to those who have retired.

As far as those who are hateful and over-entitled go the generation after mine is going to be the first in a long time to be worse off than their parents so it seems they aren't actually entitled to much.

However intergenerational fairness probably isn't something we want to get into too heavily, especially as the end result is that those of maybe my age, just about, and younger are getting a thorough shafting to ensure that older generations get higher pensions, their houses stay expensive, they can charge high rents on the buy-to-let, etc.

As far as entitlement goes the 'entitled' generation is, by pretty much all measures, abundantly clear.

tizmeinnit 13-05-2014 11:29
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
where did this 5.2 billion figure come from? that would mean £1 in every 40 ish claimed was fraudulent I did not think the figure was that high

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-...-benefit-fraud figures here state its 1.6 billion including tax benefit fraud

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 ----------

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...spective/15796 figures here says 2 billion and a nice little graph to put things into perspective

---------- Post added at 10:28 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/the-cost-of-benefit-fraud dunno about this site but this puts it even lower

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-tax-avoidance 0.7 % of total benefits overpayment due to fraud 1.2 billion not including tax credit fraud

the only place I can find figures so high is a propaganda site

Chris 13-05-2014 11:38
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tizmeinnit
http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/the-cost-of-benefit-fraud dunno about this site but this puts it even lower
DSDNI is a department of the Northern Ireland government, which is why its fraud figures are so small.

tizmeinnit 13-05-2014 11:39
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35697797)
DSDNI is a department of the Northern Ireland government, which is why its fraud figures are so small.
arrr that makes sense :)

Gary L 13-05-2014 11:51
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
To be fair though. with tax. they don't know exactly how much is due in. they can only estimate.

but when you compare the losses in tax and the welfare bill. the welfare bill is insignificant.

but to blame everything to do with this country and it's budget solely on the unemployed, and their welfare. is utter bonkers.

tizmeinnit 13-05-2014 11:56
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
Yes benefit fraud is wrong but it has given the government a platform to shift focus and the blame for the countries woes onto the poor sick and unemployed and a hell of a lot of tax payers have fallen for it

Ignitionnet 13-05-2014 12:10
Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 
That number includes I suspect errors as well as fraud.

Either way if we're dealing with people losing out on their care if we eliminated all errors and fraud from the system, over night, and that includes errors where people aren't receiving what they're entitled to, the welfare bill goes up.

Damn selfish entitlement generation, not claiming what they should be.


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