Re: Brexit
 

You mean those that can't go out and buy the latest iPhone?

Re: Brexit
 

No i mean those that can't afford to pay their rent or feed there families without reliance on 3rd party assistance be they in work or not.

Re: Brexit
 

There's no point entering into a argument if your intending to see that the other side has a counter argument.
when i argue it's because i'm right and the other side is wrong;)

Re: Brexit
 

Then by definition, you're not arguing. Just displaying arrogance and/or ignorance by refusing to contemplate that the other side may have a valid point.

Re: Brexit
 

Your confusing argument with a debate or a negotiation,the sole purpose of an argument is to win [ask your mr's ] ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Whilst the point may be to win, you don't achieve it by steamrollering your opponent with a refusal to listen to their point.

quite agree with you on the Mrs though... :D

Re: Brexit
 

No, because it's impossible. The forecasts are based on known implications of leaving, but these need to be mitigated by the opportunities open to business and how industry will react to their liberation from restrictive EU regulations. No-one can know that in advance and that's why the forecasts are so negative.

However, experience shows that less regulation stimulates business.

Re: Brexit
 

Less regulation also caused the 2008 Financial Crisis...[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Guaranteeing May’s promise to hold a vote on extending article 50

Yvette Cooper's amendment has been approved by MPs.

Ayes: 502

Noes: 20

Majority: 482

Re: Brexit
 

On your first point, yes, that didn't help, but the issue is not to over-regulate. No-one is suggesting a free for all.

On the second, there will be no need to extend Article 50 if MPs sign up to the deal on offer. Nobody has a sensible alternative apart from 'no deal', which virtually no-one except the ERG wants, so with a written legal guarantee on the backstop, it should get through this time. At bloody last.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit brings with it more red tape, not less.

Re: Brexit
 

Could you give some examples of these "restrictive EU regulations", please, which business can be liberated from, and the perceived benefits to consumers?

Re: Brexit
 

When the EU manages with something like 49,000 bureaucrats compared to 332,800 in Englands Civil Service (does not include Scotland, Wales or NI). I wonder which has more bureaucracy?

Re: Brexit
 

So . . are we leaving, half leaving, or staying in? :shrug:

And why do I get the feeling I've been led up a blind alley, kicked in the head and had my wallet stolen :erm:

Re: Brexit
 

Simple. The EU. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

The whole world isn't just Europe, Andrew. And if the EU makes things difficult, it will be difficult for their exporters too. It will just encourage British industry to trade more with other countries to avoid the EU nonsense.

Re: Brexit
 

I've never said the world is just Europe.
I'm talking about when we're out of the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

But that seems to have been your mindset, as if departure from the EU will bring the sky crashing in.

The world beyond Europe is where most of the economic growth will come from.

Re: Brexit
 

You didn't. I was simply making my position clear for posterity.

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------

Indeed there is, but my point is that freedom of movement allows criminals to come here in in the first place. If they weren't simply waved through, criminals wouldn't be here to commit crimes in the UK(assuming that we carry out any necessary border checks). Ending freedom of movement would improve the quality and allow us to adjust the quantity of immigrants.

Re: Brexit
 

Thank you for replying to a point I didn’t make - much appreciated...

For posterity, I would like to point out that I have no intention of stealing either Meghan or Kate from the Princes Harry and William... ;)

How will ending Freedom of Movement affect the rising number of non-EU migrants coming into the U.K.?

Re: Brexit
 

The new immigration policy will be designed to let in the foreign bodies we need and keep out those who would simply steal our jobs or come here to bum around and cause trouble.

We only need people from abroad who can fill our skills gaps and the jobs the Brits don't want or who can demonstrably support themselves. Students would also be welcome while they were in college or university on limited stay visas. We need to consider under what circumstances people with family links to UK citizens can be allowed into the country as well.

Re: Brexit
 

Shame we can't export our own nationals that can't be bothered to do jobs, bum around and cause trouble.... They are more of an issue.

Re: Brexit
 

I bet the ponces sorry prince's will be very relieved to hear that Hugh

Student visas are the biggest scam going, in fact I'd go as far as saying they'll be the next big immigration scandal exposed, hopefully anyway...

Re: Brexit
 

You seem to be conflating increased bureaucracy from leaving the EU with country growth rates.

Re: Brexit
 

The fact that some of our own commit crime and abuse the benefits system is irrelevant; we don't want to be forced by the EU to accept those of a similar ilk.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

I didn't.

The quality and quality of non EU immigrants needs to be carefully controlled too. As automation gathers pace, we need to be thinking of ways to reduce the population when the need arises.

Re: Brexit
 

Tory Minister quits over Brexit delay vote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47405261

Re: Brexit
 

If the government actually used the rules there are in place and bothered to check when EU people entered the country, those without means of supporting themselves after 3 months could be sent back home.

But oh no, the UK does not bother to check when someone enters the country and then leaves our own benefit rules wide open to being taken advantage of.

So this is purely a UK problem in not following rules they could.

Oddly the number of immigrants to the UK has not changed, just fewer from the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Today they announced that net migration from outside of the EU had actually increased

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47400679

---------- Post added at 18:40 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------


Hmmmm, now, i wonder where in the world this attitude towards migration has been played out before, and how it lead to those people being treated........ Singapore is one country that instinctively springs to mind with it's treatment of migrant Bangladeshi workers. Can you name another?

Migration is not about creating a class system, it's about mutual integration,acceptance & tolerance.

Re: Brexit
 

They are all an issue, Mr K. But we really don't need the low lifes from other countries bumping up the numbers.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:41 ----------

It just needs the appropriate checks and balances to sort this out.

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

What 'treatment'? I don't see anyone on the forum saying migrants should be mistreated!

What attitude are you talking about? What is wrong with only allowing people in who have the skills we need? This is a small and crowded country. We need to have sensible policies in place that recognise and address that.

Re: Brexit
 

and the jobs the Brits don't want

A direct quote from your post, and when the above is allowed to fester in a society those who are doing the jobs that other nations don't want end up mistreated.

I have seen this first hand in multiple countries. Singapore, China and Australia to name three.

How would you propose that the UK ensures that this doesn't happen?

Re: Brexit
 

You're on fire, Hugh! Yesterday you posted a question which the respondent could not answer and you've done the same today.

Re: Brexit
 

and the jobs the Brits don't want

Well if I was unemployed I can tell you a job I wouldn't want, and that's one of those 16 hours a week 'agency' type jobs

Re: Brexit
 

Which are very widespread in today's laissez-faire economy but offers zero security to workers.

Re: Brexit
 

There are no questions brexit answers, ask them what we'll be selling the world the day after we leave that we aren't now and they can't tell you, they'll tell you we'll be free to make our own laws, ask them which laws they don't like and they can't tell you, they'll tell you instead we'll be back in control of the borders and then the figures are published saying immigration from non EU countries is greater, so they'll say well we'll have freedom, to do what exactly, exactly what will I be free to do the day after we leave that I wasn't before, except live or work in the EU of course, perhaps it's free to be noticeably poorer so when that's pointed out they'll tell you instead it's about a feeling that questions or experts just can't answer, well in that case I have a question for them, what happens when brexit isn't the answer, when it doesn't solve the way millions have been left behind or the misery millions more endured through austerity

Re: Brexit
 

But it's OK for a migrant to do it? and whilst they are doing that you would be doing what? waiting ever hopefully?

Re: Brexit
 

No not at all, stop picking holes where there are none. These zero hour contracts should be outlawed IMO

Re: Brexit
 

I love the way they say it suits most people on them, I bet most people don't know their on them and it doesn't suit anyone that does it as their main job

Re: Brexit
 

What are you on about? Yes, there are jobs that the Brits tend not to want to do, such as fruit picking. We must not create an immigration policy that does not take into account the need for employers to employ people from overseas where it is impossible to recruit people from within the UK. That stands to reason, doesn't it? All I am saying is that we don't want to let people in who are going to steal the jobs that our own people with the appropriate skills are willing and able to do - that simply drives down wages and creates unemployment.

I don't see that constituting mistreatment. There are separate laws to cover that, anyway.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 ----------

The Acquired Rights Directive (the basis for our TUPE Regulations)
The Working Time Directive
The General Data Protection Regulations...

To name but three. All of these regulations take a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The basic principlefor each might have merit, but then they have so much bureaucracy and jargonistic language around them that the whole thing becomes a drag.

Most employers do not understand legislation from the EU and need an army of lawyers to interpret it. UK law can be an ass, but it was never like this.

---------- Post added at 07:27 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------

No, he's not, and I've just answered it. Sometimes it can be tiresome having to explain the obvious, that's all.

---------- Post added at 07:30 ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 ----------

Well, given that we have close to full employment in this country and only a small proportion of them are zero hours contracts, you wouldn't have to accept such employment.

---------- Post added at 07:33 ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 ----------

Yes it is, and they want to do it what's more. What's your solution? Who do you think should be doing these jobs?

If you are going to keep criticising like this, you need to come up with alternative solutions. But you don't...

---------- Post added at 07:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 ----------



I disagree with you there. However, some employers have been abusing this, which is why we need to ensure that unfair practices are outlawed.

Zero hours contracts (which we used to call 'casual employment) can be useful to both employer and employee as they provide flexibility. However, they are not suitable for those who want stable hours and a stable income.

Re: Brexit
 

It's time to retell a story here. One of the managers in the company I work in is Hungarian and her younger 18 year old brother came over to stay. He wanted to come to the UK mainly to improve his English and see a bit of the world.

While he was here, he worked in various minimum wage jobs - barman, labourer in a building site, washing up in a restaurant kitchen etc. Lots of casual work basically. A couple of times, he went 'sod this' to a job and left and got another job within a couple of days. His opinion of young brits being unemployed wasn't high! He couldn't understand how you could be out of work when there are so many jobs out there.

Re: Brexit
 

Got any similar stories about middle aged married men with families and a mortgage?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Nope, that's why I stated young unemployment which has a rate of around 24% for age 16-17 and 10% for 18-24. Middle age men (35-49) is down at 2.4%. No mention of families and mortgages in the data I looked at I am afraid

Source - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...da05sa/current

Re: Brexit
 

If you're unemployed, and there's a role such as picking fruit. then unless there's a medical or other valid reason for not taking the position then you should take and do the the job. That is simple.

There are some genuine reasons for people who can't do roles such as fruit or vegetable picking, yhere are also some people with no work ethic or aptitude for hard work. These people should not get to decide what type of job they want.


By saying that unemployed British people can reject a job because they don't want it but saying it's acceptable for a migrant to do it. you are creating a two tier system. People will be treat differently because of this. I have seen it many times before.

Regarding your comment on there are suitable laws to cover mistreatment, they also have them in Singapore, China & Australia but that doesn't stop the inherent racism towards migrant workers



From the Belfast Telegraph;

February 9 2018

Britain’s horticulture farms suffered a 12.5% shortfall in seasonal workers in 2017 as numbers coming from continental Europe fell, it has been revealed.

The first full year following the Brexit referendum was the first time since the National Farmers Union began compiling figures in 2014 that growers were unable to recruit sufficient workers.

Opponents of Brexit said the figures proved that the Government’s position on EU withdrawal had resulted in fruit and vegetables being left to rot for lack of workers to pick them.

The NFU’s labour survey for December 2017 showed a shortfall of 15.6% in the number of seasonal workers in the horticultural sector that month, bringing the average over the course of the year to 12.5%.

The worst month was September, when growers reported a 29.3% shortage at a time when many crops are being harvested.

Over the course of the year, some 30,585 out of 34,962 seasonal vacancies were filled.
bpanews_74641ecf-aa87-4bea-942c-f669c75d0bc5_embedded297543
Recruitment of seasonal workers in UK horticulture farms. (National Farmers Union labour survey, December 2017)

Almost 67% of seasonal workers were from Romania and Bulgaria, with 32% from eight other EU countries in eastern and central Europe.

Fewer than 1% of the seasonal workers carrying out jobs such as fruit-picking were UK nationals – 169 individuals in the survey.

NFU deputy president Minette Batters said: “It is clear that solutions are still needed to ensure that farmers and growers have access to sufficient numbers of workers for both forthcoming seasons and post-Brexit.

“Access to both seasonal and permanent workers is crucial across all farming sectors and they are incredibly important to ensuring farmers can continue producing food to feed the nation.

“The NFU’s survey of labour providers shows that the availability of workers continues to tighten and I would urge Government to find a solution for the whole industry that ensures it has access to the people it needs.”

Green MP Caroline Lucas, a leading supporter of the Open Britain campaign for close ties with the EU, said: “The Government’s zealotry on Brexit and immigration is leading to a crisis in the British fruit industry.

“Fruit and veg is literally being left to rot in the fields because workers from the EU are increasingly unwilling to work here thanks to Brexit.”

The “minuscule” proportion of seasonal farm workers being recruited in the UK showed that it was “wishful thinking” to believe that local employees could fill the gap left by absent EU nationals, she said.

But according to you were in a position for British people for somehow to be above the role of fruit and veg picking?

I'm quite looking forward to watching people who have no work ethic crying after being in a field picking carrots for one hour....

Finally, exactly what jobs are migrant workers taking from the British?

'Sorry Dave with your GCSEs the reason you can't be a hospital porter isn't because you can't be bothered to get up on time or attend work trials, or even answer the phone to the DWP is because some migrant came over here and dared to work hard, showed willing and aptitude'

Re: Brexit
 

lots of 'summer' type jobs used to be done by students . . where are they now? :D

Re: Brexit
 

Still clinging to this narrative :)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ase-eurotunnel

Re: Brexit
 

But the challenge with some zero hour contracts is that you have to be available at very short notice, and get binned if you're not (especially in bar and restaurants).

Re: Brexit
 

I'm pretty sure I've opted out of the working time directive and signed paperwork to confirm it, I realise it's tiresome but are you certain you're right about the other two?

I'm on a zero hours contract, have been with the same employer 11 years, do 63 hours a week and work to a Rota,.the contract won't stand up in court or tribunal should it ever come to that and there are plenty more like me in the same company on the same but we're all on them never the less

Or perhaps they don't live I the country, I'd suggest that's s reason not to take a temporary job rather than a lack of aptitude or work ethic, it's to simplistic to blame lazy young people and rhetoric I'm not keen on at all

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

And the real challenge is when you shouldn't be on them at all

Re: Brexit
 

On drugs, presumably. Do you have a better explanation?

Sadly, but true.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

No. That is an example of where it is not working properly. The whole idea of casual contracts is that they are flexible, both from tne perspective of employer and employee.

Re: Brexit
 

You have no rights at all, but if you are happy what the hell.

---------- Post added at 22:45 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

That may be the case but it happens. It is not a casual contract and should not be referred to as such.

Historically casual workers never had contracts.

Re: Brexit
 

Really, acas and unite are wrong then :shocked: I'll let them know they've advised me incorrectly as they seem to think, wrongly as it turns out, if I was working to the same Rota week in week out I wasn't on a zero hour contract despite the title given to it, you know in much the same way as if I never signed it but adhered to the terms of it would mean I accepted it.

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Wasn't that clown on the news the other day saying not one penny would be paid out :mad:

Re: Brexit
 

Then by default you are not on a zero hour contract but may have started on one. Check with you HR Dept.

You are the one who is saying you are on one not me.

Make up your mind, find out and post back if you want.

Re: Brexit
 

It says in it it's a zero hours contract, all of the dozens of others workers contracts do to but six of us have specific rotas where the hours don't change ever, therefore according to unite we aren't working to the terms of a zero hours contract, I am quite interested in opinions on it though tbh. Oh i started on a guaranteed 60 hour a week contract to all those years ago.

Re: Brexit
 

I quite clearly said there are valid reasons for not doing so, not living in the countryside isn’t one of them as from what I can gather the majority of workers are biased in from nearby towns or cities.

Nobody should turn down employment based solely on the fact they don’t want to do it. I’d hazard a guess that most of us have done crap jobs in our lives that we had rather not done but we did them because it was required.

There’s a significant amount of people who think they’re owed a living in this country and they’re going to need to step and do their part in areas such as unskilled manual labour and other areas such as the nhs because as you can see from my example in the post above we’re already short in certain areas and it’s likely to get worse

Re: Brexit
 

Today’s Times editorial

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...b1cb66bf062141 This is not “Project Fear", this is the reality 4 weeks before we leave the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Facts won't make any difference Hugh. Brexit is a religious cult, pain and suffering are welcome.

Re: Brexit
 

For some people on here it's not a valid reason at all and we have pretty much full employment, in fact it's better than if it were at 100% apparently according to experts

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

Hmm that doesn't sound like a great deal for us, great for them but not us, at least we'll be free, well free ish looking at that deal

Re: Brexit
 

Ah but as we’re negotiating as a nation of 66 million as opposed to a block of 500 million we are of course going to get a great deal said no one with any sort of acumen, ever.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Surely that means the remainder of the EU totals 380m with buying power equal to or greater than us? Obviously that figure includes us, 314m without.

Decent negotiators? We can’t even negotiate a few hundred million pounds worth of fishing rights without the ideology getting in the way.

Re: Brexit
 

We survived the Black Death. We can survive this. ;)

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 ----------

Not sure it's an attractive role. Any negotiator we employed would get blamed for our not getting a cake-and-eat it deal as the clock and bargaining chips are not in our favour.
Or maybe the Brexiter MPs should step up and negotiate instead? But I think we've all seen what happens when Brexit MPs try and negotiate things. The latest example being Chris Grayling.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/854411...hilip-hammond/

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

GDP is important and that's an issue that some seem to forget, along with the proximity of the countries we are hoping to do trade deals with; the closer the better. But Not sure how the GDP argument helps in our current struggles to negotiate trade deals with the US (population 326m).

Re: Brexit
 

That's the ticket,stiff upper lip and all that, if we don't leave i'm going to have to open a shop to offload all this canned food :)

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Still five times the size of us even if we use your calculation. Brexit has never made any economic sense. It's a romantic, xenophobic dream, which has turned into a nightmare.

Re: Brexit
 

There’s no need to exaggerate the economic strength of the EU. Various economic models have it as the largest or second largest economy in the world (alongside the USA and China depending on what measure you like).

The idea that the UK will have a strong relative negotiating position simply doesn’t represent reality in any meaningful way.

All economies have areas of relative wealth and poverty to some degree. Writing off 120m of the population of the EU on that basis is disingenuous.

Re: Brexit
 

Particularly as one of the EU's goals is to bring peoples standard of living up, rather than run a system on a large portion of the population remaining in significant poverty.

Re: Brexit
 

Does this mean that the good old US of A gains another 'state'? Do we have to fly the American flag? Will I have to contribute to the building of 'the wall'?

So many questions about the possibility of becoming American :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

UK GDP in 2017 2,622 billion US dollars.
EU GDP in 2017 15,300 billion US dollars

EU GDP without UK GDP 12,678 billion US dollars

Nearly five times the UK GDP - I would say that gives them a lot more negotiating power...

Re: Brexit
 

£40 billion hole in their budget gives us a pretty effective stick.

Re: Brexit
 

Hmm, if that's a pretty effective stick, I'd shudder to see what an ineffective one would give us. :D

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Relevance to the original point you raised? - which was They negotiate as a bloc with 5 times the GDP of the UK, which gives them more negotiating power.

Re: Brexit
 

Which in many respects isn’t considered when it comes to negotiating a trade deal with the EU. Do you want access to bigger markets or smaller ones? Do the bigger markets hold more of the aces in negotiations? Almost always yes.

Does a Japanese car manufacturer care if the buyer is in Berlin or Bratislava? Probably not.

The Common Fisheries Policy is going to look quite cheap compared to the concessions the US will demand.

Re: Brexit
 

Since the net cost of the EU budget is £9 billion, not sure how that equates to a £40 billion hole in their budget?

Re: Brexit
 

Because they'll still be getting that over two years and won't be giving us anything back. May's already surrendered that. Sold out!

Re: Brexit
 

If we don’t pay, we will have abrogated our agreed treaty - why would any other country trust us to honour future treaty agreements with them?

Re: Brexit
 

That's what happens when a weaker body negotiates with a stronger one. We need to be realistic and accept that it will be the way of future trade deals when we are dealing with stronger countries and blocs. It's time to put away the "they need us more than we need them" reality and be businesslike and realistic.

Re: Brexit
 

What happens if we don't pay . . will they kick us out? :D :D :D

Re: Brexit
 

They'd sue us and win, and no other country would do any sort of deal with us.

Re: Brexit
 

Bad debtors soon get a bad reputation...

Re: Brexit
 

Another nail in the coffin for 29/3.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8804381.html

Re: Brexit
 

"Theresa May will have to delay Brexit even if she gets her exit plan through parliament this month, Michel Barnier has said."

No she doesn't, all she has to do is say "ok I've had enough of the crap you're throwing around, it's no deal, end of"

. . but she won't because she's a remainer

Re: Brexit
 

She's a born-again Brexiter whose red lines were devised by the unelected Nick Timothy. We're insufficiently prepared for no deal so that's not an option we can use.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Sometimes you can only view what's really going on by being removed from it.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1249990.html

Re: Brexit
 

But we aren’t out yet! Once we are it’ll be money and unicorns for everyone. £39bn to share out to the top 1% and trickle down economics does the rest.

Re: Brexit
 

The government's looking at this to get the bill over the line:

https://www.ft.com/content/7370e794-...f-30761f19a974

Re: Brexit
 

Promises Promises Promises . . . all Government promises have been kept over the past 100 years (or more) . . honestly, trust me, you know I'm good for it :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Most promises are not worth the paper they are written on end of...

Re: Brexit
 

Theresa May needs to convince enough Labour MPs to vote for her deal and the job's done. This promise is not aimed at you, your vote has been won, it's aimed at some Labour MPs.

Re: Brexit
 

I know it's not aimed at me, it's aimed at a bunch of MP's . . . who will probably jump for joy at the promise of a free ice cream if they roll over and wag their tails

Re: Brexit
 

They are the front people for the negotiations - all they negotiate still has to be agreed by the governments of the 27 countries.

Sounds fairly democratic to me...

Re: Brexit
 

It would be ironic if the EU deliver a no deal Brexit in spite of the Westminster elite. All the shenanigans and wasted years. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Sounds like you both have different standards ;)

Re: Brexit
 

:tu:

Re: Brexit
 

Hugh has high standards. ;)

I also think we've seen what happens when elected representatives negotiate things.
https://news.sky.com/story/chris-gra...ayout-11652180

Re: Brexit
 

Chris Grayling takes the biscuit for sheer incompetence when it comes to gaffes by a cabinet minister.

Re: Brexit
 

If he was in charge of Brexit negotiations, we'd have probably joined the Euro and given up our rebate! :D

Re: Brexit
 

I think it would have been better for us to have used professional negotiators rather than politicians.

Companies use them all the time to get the best desl for themselves, yet we are using untrained people for something as important as this.

Re: Brexit
 

I think it’d have been better if we’d a clear idea of what our negotiating objectives were from the start. Single market, customs union, Canada, Norway all got mentions along the way.

Theresa May has negotiated something, and crashing out on WTO terms was never considered likely prior to about six months ago when the penny dropped the EU had a coherent position and we didn’t.

Re: Brexit
 

So does delivering the Referendum result.

Re: Brexit
 

That's the wrong type of democracy for some.