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-   -   Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised' (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33703838)

nomadking 05-05-2018 09:19
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
If somebody buys product X for purpose Y, and the seller knows that using product X for purpose Y is illegal, then both the seller AND the buyer are complicit in breaking the law.

Eg If somebody sells Tobacco taxed in Poland(ie not UK taxed) to somebody and the seller knows it is going to be be sold on in the UK, both the seller and the buyer are breaking the law.

It can be legal to sell a replica gun, but if you know that the buyer is going to convert it to a viable firearm, then both the buyer and the seller are breaking the law.

Damien 05-05-2018 10:46
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35945947)
If somebody buys product X for purpose Y, and the seller knows that using product X for purpose Y is illegal, then both the seller AND the buyer are complicit in breaking the law.

Eg If somebody sells Tobacco taxed in Poland(ie not UK taxed) to somebody and the seller knows it is going to be be sold on in the UK, both the seller and the buyer are breaking the law.

It can be legal to sell a replica gun, but if you know that the buyer is going to convert it to a viable firearm, then both the buyer and the seller are breaking the law.
Yes but as we have already discussed you haven't provided the law which makes it illegal to sell Halal meat to non-Muslim customers. The law provided so far only says it should be made with the intent to supply it to Muslims but nothing about it being exclusively for Muslims.

Nandos can buy Halal meat with the intent of selling it in areas with a high Muslim population and serve non-Muslims in those restaurants without breaking the law.

nomadking 05-05-2018 11:14
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35945954)
Yes but as we have already discussed you haven't provided the law which makes it illegal to sell Halal meat to non-Muslim customers. The law provided so far only says it should be made with the intent to supply it to Muslims but nothing about it being exclusively for Muslims.

Nandos can buy Halal meat with the intent of selling it in areas with a high Muslim population and serve non-Muslims in those restaurants without breaking the law.
1) They ARE NOT serving residential areas. Eg Subway is used by shoppers, workers, but NOT residents. Just look at the locations. 2) Even in a high Muslim residential area, The proportion of that Muslim population buying there will be very low. 3) They are Halal because of the faith of the franchisee, NOT who the customers are.

EU report.
Quote:
In Ireland, with 1% of consumers Muslim, 6% of cattle and 34% of sheep were killed without stunning, and
In France 40% of calves, 25% of bovines (cattle) and 54% of ovines (sheep etc.) were killed without stunning according to a survey done in 2006-07.
Quote:
Germany gives no-stunning permissions to abattoirs, but only if they show they have local religious customers for the request. Very few are in fact given.
Quote:
Production volumes of Halal and Kosher meat indicate that much is sold to the general public, who are not able to see the slaughter method used in its production as there are no labelling laws.
Quote:
Jews and Muslims combined represent about 3% of the UK population. Though the Muslim population is rising somewhat, Halal meat supply has gone from an 11% share of meat sales in 2001 to an estimated 25% in 2008, according to the Halal Food Authority, a certification body. Farmers Weekly, a magazine for farmers, reported in 2010 that 40% of poultry and 25-30% of lamb consumed meets Halal specifications.

RichardCoulter 05-05-2018 13:44
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Never knew that about Subway!

There is actually a Muslim organisation that goes round checking that Muslim traders sell halal meat. In takeaways advertised meat on pizzas is substituted for different types of meat that can be obtained the halal way, which has caused conflict with Trading Standards.

In addition, some halal traders have had action taken against them by animal rights activists.

Paul 10-10-2018 18:07
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
The couple won their appeal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759

OLD BOY 10-10-2018 18:14
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35966033)
Political correctness successfully challenged at last, I guess.

However, that doesn't change my view that the owners deserved to be taken to court. What a fuss!

Chris 10-10-2018 18:38
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35966037)
Political correctness successfully challenged at last, I guess.

However, that doesn't change my view that the owners deserved to be taken to court. What a fuss!
Why did they deserve to be taken to court? They refused to act against their conscience by refusing to provide one very specific service that they would have refused anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation. The law, as enacted, does not make that a crime. It really ought to have been obvious from the start that no crime had been committed here and it’s shocking that this has had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to establish what the letter and spirit of the law is here.

What has in fact been revealed is a willingness not just on the part of State-funded bodies like the equalities commission, but also within the judiciary, to a fairly senior level, to elevate equalities above conscience. We were perilously close to allowing a precedent that created a thought-crime, which of course was precisely the aim of the activists behind the case and within the EQ that used public money to fund it.

Need I add that recent history shows you don’t have to have a religious faith to fall victim to those who try to use law to force issues of conscience and belief.

OLD BOY 10-10-2018 18:48
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35966046)
Why did they deserve to be taken to court? They refused to act against their conscience by refusing to provide one very specific service that they would have refused anyone, regardless of their sexual orientation. The law, as enacted, does not make that a crime. It really ought to have been obvious from the start that no crime had been committed here and it’s shocking that this has had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to establish what the letter and spirit of the law is here.

What has in fact been revealed is a willingness not just on the part of State-funded bodies like the equalities commission, but also within the judiciary, to a fairly senior level, to elevate equalities above conscience. We were perilously close to allowing a precedent that created a thought-crime, which of course was precisely the aim of the activists behind the case and within the EQ that used public money to fund it.

Need I add that recent history shows you don’t have to have a religious faith to fall victim to those who try to use law to force issues of conscience and belief.
My view is simply that they are running a business, and to refuse their customers on 'a point of principle', whether religious or otherwise, is unacceptable.

I have no sympathy for the owners of the business, but I am also completely fed up with political correctness, so I have mixed feelings about this.

Chris 10-10-2018 19:09
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35966049)
My view is simply that they are running a business, and to refuse their customers on 'a point of principle', whether religious or otherwise, is unacceptable.

I have no sympathy for the owners of the business, but I am also completely fed up with political correctness, so I have mixed feelings about this.
OK, so on points of principle, were the theatre venues who cancelled Dwarf Wrestling events wrong to do so? What about venues that cancelled Roy ‘chubby’ Brown because they decided his humour didn’t accord with their values?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-45485344

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...n-gig-12431123

nomadking 10-10-2018 19:14
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Supreme Court Lady Hale ruled that the bakers did not refuse to fulfil the order because of his sexual orientation. "They would have refused to make such a cake for any customer, irrespective of their sexual orientation," she said.
"Their objection was to the message on the cake, not to the personal characteristics of Mr Lee."
She added: "Accordingly, this court holds that there was no discrimination on the ground of the sexual orientation of Mr Lee."
Seeing as that has been blindingly obvious all long(as I pointed out in post #8 from nearly 2 years ago), you have to wonder about the bias in previous rulings on the matter.

richard s 10-10-2018 19:33
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
What the bakers probably should have said to the customer is... Sorry we do not want your business and no explanation given. If you own a business you can refuse any customer/client without giving an explanation.

nomadking 10-10-2018 19:40
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35966054)
What the bakers probably should have said to the customer is... Sorry we do not want your business and no explanation given. If you own a business you can refuse any customer/client without giving an explanation.
Quote:
His order was initially accepted at a branch of Ashers in Belfast city centre, but two days later the baking firm's head office contacted Mr Lee to say the firm would not make the cake.

...
As he arrived outside the Supreme Court for the start of the case in May, Mr McArthur said: "We didn't say no because of the customer; we'd served him before, we'd serve him again.

Paul 10-10-2018 20:24
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35966049)
My view is simply that they are running a business, and to refuse their customers on 'a point of principle', whether religious or otherwise, is unacceptable.
You dont think that someone running a business has the right to decide if they want to refuse a customer ? I hope you are joking. :erm:

Pierre 10-10-2018 20:25
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35966033)
Common sense prevailed.

pip08456 10-10-2018 20:30
Re: Bakers who refused to make 'gay cake' say they felt 'victimised'
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35966058)
Common sense prevailed.
As it should.


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