Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

:dig: This is a fanstatic smiley to use when Graham (or anyone else) has backed you into a corner by the way. ;)

I wonder if Marina has a painted into a corner smiley.

However I digress. I would like to add to Graham's comments about education that it would also be tremendously helpful If education was taken out of the hands of the government entirely.That way we might actually get some stability in education and an examination system that made some sense.I as a teacher am sick of being told how to teach by people who would frankly make cr@p teachers.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

[QUOTE=scastle]No, but they may be pulled off any investigations they are involved in to help solve more politically conveniant crimes.[/qoute]

Like speed cameras and local burglaries? :rolleyes:



Which the PA members already have so instead of 17 assistants they'll be just one. Now I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure one personal assistant won't be paid the same salary as 17 personal assistants, same as one commisioner won't be paid the equivalent of 17 PA members salaries, even part time salaries!


Elected on policies which the public want implimented, so if the commisioner gets voted in stating one of his policies will be to tackle race hate crimes, then by virtue of being voted in, his policies, all of them, are what the public want.
It will be up to the cheif constable to organise his forces to tackle race hate crimes, not the commisioner, therefore it will be up to the chief constable to ensure that other crimes are not ignored.
If crimes do end up being ignored, then the responsibility will be with the cheif constable (just as it is now) and not the commisioner.


Really?
In response to Pierre mentioning the backlog in the employee checks you said:

Now, as I said, no police resources are being dedicated to checking on the safety of employees working with children, and the people who do the checking don't deal with criminals who mug or break into houses.

The statement I made regarding political influence wasn't directed at you, hence the line break.


So, lets go over things for clarity:

The commisioner will be replacing a large amount of expensive beurocracy

The commisioner will be voted in on the merits of his policies

It will be up to the cheif constable to impliment those policies within operational expectations

The cheif constable will have operational independance as he currently does.

YOU could be the commisioner

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Indeed,

I think a lot of people are resisting change because they see it as change for changes sake. But I think this particular motion could be a positive move. - However, as I daid earlier it's unlikely the Tories will get in so no need to worry.


No need to come back at any of that as I've made my arguments and , in my opinion, you have failed to convincingly argue against them.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Yes, I did. *None* of which says "the Police do checks on people working with children".

The point is that many extra workers had to be drafted in to supplement those working at the Criminal Records Bureau in order to do all the checks the government all of a sudden required after Soham. Those workers cost money. Money (and workers) are resource. So resources that could have been used *by* the Police were being used elsewhere.

In which case you could have made it clearer since it followed immediately after a comment that was definitely directed at me.

Possibly. However it's more likely IM(cynical)V that they will just replace one lot of bureaucracy with another lot.

Or, rather, they will be voted in depending on how good they can make themselves look whilst making their opponents look bad. Facts and relevant information will most probably be lost in the rhetoric.

So the elected official can claim that *they* said "we should do this" but was over-ridden by the Chief Constable, so it wasn't *their* fault (possibly despite the fact that it may have been an inefficient use of resources or a completely impractical or inappropriate policy but which sounded good to the media).

*I* have more sense...!
__________________

And, in my opinion, this is the tactic of "declaring victory" in the hope that nobody will notice that you haven't made your arguments at all :rolleyes:

:walk:

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Ah, the old rule-by-butter again. Slippery customers.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Spread across the political parties involved. THe best work Parliament does is through it's cross party committes. The people on a Police Authority are also not voted by the electorate specifically to be on it, but are elected to represent their communities. THat is an important difference.

THat Graham's on fire isn't he?

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

You have a way far too high opinion of yourself.

Who said anything about declaring victory? as if a perceived "victory" over you would give me any pleasure. :erm:

This is not a competition, well it might be to you, it's a discussion.

All I said, if you read it for what it is, is that I have made my points, and you have made yours. The points you have made have failed to dissuade me from the opinion I have on this subject, becuase in my opinion they are weak and reactionary. Therefore, I do not see the reason for continuing the discussion any further.

That is all.

Victory indeed :rolleyes:

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Thanks for that, now I've got a vision of goverment pen pushers running round after burglars and muggers! :rofl:

I thought I had by giving a line break and discussing something which you hadn't said.
I'd sing a song right now, but you'd probably think that was about you...



So rather than ensure that things get done to your standards you decline the chance, oh well, that's your choice I suppose.
Stick with the tried and tested "I don't like it, I can't give any evidence to back up why it would be a bad thing, and I don't see why I should suggest something better" argument.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Ok, you've not declared victory. But you've said Graham has "failed to convincingly argue against" your points and therefore there's "no need to come back at any". That's rather dismissive and hardly in the spirit of debate. Whatever you think about Graham's posts they have been considered - highly considered! - and have made a significant contribution to the thread (whether you or I agree with them or not) and are worthy of more than a brush off. If you're bored with the thread that's a different thing :)

For what it's worth, I like Clairey's point. Being specifically elected as a commissioner brings with it all kinds of political baggage and media inspired nonsense. At least with a PA there is a broad range of opinion from across the community which includes a majority elected to represent the community on all matters, not just policing. That sense of distance is I think important as is the ability for a variety of voices to have an input in the way communities are policed.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

I didn't know I would be set upon by on Grahams minders.

I like arguing with Graham, however I felt if I carried on I would be flogging a dead horse. But if it makes you feel any better.



Where is your evidence that this will incur extra cost? It may focus the police to use their resources more wisely and reduce costs, allowing for extra resources to put into areas where it is needed.

Yes, you can usually find me around town flanked by my personal security guards. :rolleyes:

And our *already* elected representatives have umpteen other things to concern themselves with.

This proposal will bring a bit focus.


Statistically

Yes you did, from Post 71

Now, that's what that says to me. Wasting resources on a high profile case because it would look good to the public, implying that if that case wasn't so high profile the same amount of resources wouldn't be used.



Why? Because there was an *imminent* danger of another murder or murders taking place or because (to quote from further down this thread):

I agree to a point.

But in some issues "pandering to public feeling" and "addressing the publics concerns" are not the same thing.

Well, no, actually you don't know that. However, extremely, unlikely there was a risk.

It may also be the case that the mess that was cobbled together saved a child from harm

No we're talking about the introduction of a Police commissioner, the cost of which will probably be less than the existing PAs

You have brought in the Social Services angle to try and back up your weak stance

Yes all very nice, what has it got to do with the Police Commissioner?

And the introduction of a Police commissioner will prevent this how?

Yes, so the introduction of a Police Commissioner will bring the downfall of the "entire system"

A very tenuous connection, but I wouldn't exactly call it logical.

Well we'd have to wait and see.

Look harder

Cynical is exactly what it is, is what your objection is based around. I think Xaccers summed it up well

Takes one to know one.

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

And you need to get off your High Horse.

If you are going to have a discussion, discuss, don't simply say "I've made my arguments and , in my opinion, you have failed to convincingly argue against them." because that doesn't contribute anything to the debate (note: *not* a "competition"), but looks like an attempt to dismiss my points instead of countering them.

No, the implication is that I have *failed* to make my points, seemingly because you don't want to accept my arguments are valid.

Neither do I.
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Now substitute that vision for one of the Police needing to carry out checks but being unable to because everyone's looking at the backgrounds of people working or wanting to work with children.

You thought incorrectly.

Just going on to a new paragraph doesn't mean you're changing the subject.

See?

Depending on the song, you may well mean it to be about me, but would then claim that "oh, but I didn't *say* it was about you".

Please, Xaccers, I've been doing e-forums for too long now to be impressed or fooled by that sort of thing.

Oh dear, and this is *another* sort of thing that I am neither impressed nor fooled by and is about as logical as the "if you don't vote you can't complain" argument, but this time it's extended to "if you don't run for office yourself you can't complain"... :rolleyes:

No, I cannot give "evidence" to back up why it would be a bad thing, just as those who have argued it favour of it have not given "evidence" for why it would be a *good* thing.

I have opinions on the subject and I have given related examples to back up my position. I have suggested something better in that it would be an improvement for the Government to remove red tape and form filling duties from the Police to let them get on with their jobs.

All of that can be seen from my previous posts and now, as with Pierre, I see little purpose in continuing this discussion further.

:walk:

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

A little history Graham, because the goverment knew they would be intorducing the intense checks on people's backgrounds, they took the responsibility for that away from the police and created a specific department for it.
The police still carry out their own checks as they always have, but now have *more* resources as they no longer deal with employment checks.
So, exactly how is that reducing police resources?


But talking about something which wasn't mentioned by you does tend to suggest a change in subject.

Elephants like buns

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Excuse me but is there any need for the scoring of cheap shots and almost name calling.If you have got to this point perhaps you need to call it a day. :erm:

I don't want to get the thread closed but if you continue..... :(

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea
 

Possible pot and kettle situation (hey, I'm less than perfect OK :) ), but I agree. This thread had at one point been interesting in that there were opposing viewpoints being argued with reason and intelligence. Now that is not the case. Can we either posit sensible, reasoned arguments or shut up shop?

Re: I think this is a stupid Idea