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nomadking 23-06-2020 12:43
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36040829)
The BBC was brought into play legitimately, Seph, due to their response to the BLM issue.

However, we should not allow racists to water down the fact that this movement gained popular support due to US police violence against black people.

This is not about statues, attacks on the white population or the sensibilities of the flakes, and it’s certainly not about violent protest and damage to property. It’s about the continuing violent repression towards blacks in the US, which operates in plain sight. I have no time for the U.K. version, which has the overthrow of capitalism as one of its objectives - nothing to do with addressing discrimination against black people at all.
The incidents happen because of the violence of Black people against the police. The videos show that. Eg if you're going to suddenly struggle, attack police, grab a taser(could've easily been the gun) and drunkly aim it at an armed person, you are going to be shot. At the very least the police officers could've been blinded by the taser barbs, never mind it went near a major artery in the neck. Would you like in the current situation, like to be spat upon?



They get treated the SAME as anyone would in the SAME situation and acting up the SAME way.
Link

Quote:
The Angiolini Review of deaths in police custody found that, while the death rate of black individuals arrested was not disproportionate to white people in England, the proportion of deaths involving use of force was.
It also found that mental health and intoxication was a major factor in deaths in police custody, meaning black people with mental health issues often suffered "double discrimination".

downquark1 23-06-2020 14:49
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ffensive-image

Quote:
Petition says image of St Michael standing on Satan is reminiscent of George Floyd killing

Chris 23-06-2020 15:04
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040894)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grauniad
“The original image may have been of St Michael slaying Satan, but the figure has no horns or tail and is clearly a black man. It is a shocking depiction, and it is even more shocking that that image could be presented to ambassadors representing this country abroad,” he said.
No tail except the green, scaly one to match his green, scaly wings. Honestly this is just absurd. There are people running round looking for things to be offended about.

Sephiroth 23-06-2020 15:43
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36040895)
No tail except the green, scaly one to match his green, scaly wings. Honestly this is just absurd. There are people running round looking for things to be offended about.
Prolly white wokes.

nomadking 23-06-2020 16:01
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040894)
The picture isn't really about White and Black, it's about the notions of Light and Dark.

tweetiepooh 23-06-2020 16:16
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
The Bible talks of Satan as an angel of light, the horns and tail are much later additions. It also speaks of being hospitable as some have entertained angels and not known it. Through out the Bible we read of people encountering "a man" who then turns out to be angelic or what is technically called a type of Jesus or The Lord.

nomadking 23-06-2020 16:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36040907)
The Bible talks of Satan as an angel of light, the horns and tail are much later additions. It also speaks of being hospitable as some have entertained angels and not known it. Through out the Bible we read of people encountering "a man" who then turns out to be angelic or what is technically called a type of Jesus or The Lord.
Link

Quote:
And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Sephiroth 23-06-2020 16:56
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 36040907)
The Bible talks of Satan as an angel of light, the horns and tail are much later additions. It also speaks of being hospitable as some have entertained angels and not known it. Through out the Bible we read of people encountering "a man" who then turns out to be angelic or what is technically called a type of Jesus or The Lord.
Jesus was a BAME.

Maggy 23-06-2020 16:57
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36040916)
Jesus was a BAME.

Definitely!

Sephiroth 23-06-2020 17:05
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Jesus was a BAME.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36040917)
Definitely!
Throws a spanner in the works when another BAME denies Jesus! Makes a nonsense of collective woke descriptors.

ianch99 23-06-2020 17:09
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36040916)
Jesus was a BAME.
No mate, I seen all the paintings & statues and he definitely is a white dude ..

OLD BOY 23-06-2020 17:28
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040878)
They think that the BBC's constitutional obligation to host him is an endorsement.
Unfortunately, the sneering of people like Fiona Bruce, who seems to prefer cutting him and other Brexiteers off before they have uttered a complete sentence give the game away!

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040879)
The incidents happen because of the violence of Black people against the police. The videos show that. Eg if you're going to suddenly struggle, attack police, grab a taser(could've easily been the gun) and drunkly aim it at an armed person, you are going to be shot. At the very least the police officers could've been blinded by the taser barbs, never mind it went near a major artery in the neck. Would you like in the current situation, like to be spat upon?



They get treated the SAME as anyone would in the SAME situation and acting up the SAME way.
Link
And where was the violence in the Floyd case, nomadking? It all came from the police, who compressed his neck for a full 9 minutes. There is no excuse for that, they could have simply handcuffed him. I trust you actually saw the video footage?

It wouldn’t have happened to a pinkskin.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36040919)
No mate, I seen all the paintings & statues and he definitely is a white dude ..
You can interpret the Bible however you like. It’s a good weapon that preachers can use against us and it’s an excellent excuse for people doing bad deeds.

I would be more convinced if you had a photo...:D

papa smurf 23-06-2020 18:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36040919)
No mate, I seen all the paintings & statues and he definitely is a white dude ..
And English,which means so was his dad:angel:

nomadking 23-06-2020 18:32
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36040920)
Unfortunately, the sneering of people like Fiona Bruce, who seems to prefer cutting him and other Brexiteers off before they have uttered a complete sentence give the game away!

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------


And where was the violence in the Floyd case, nomadking? It all came from the police, who compressed his neck for a full 9 minutes. There is no excuse for that, they could have simply handcuffed him. I trust you actually saw the video footage?

It wouldn’t have happened to a pinkskin.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------



You can interpret the Bible however you like. It’s a good weapon that preachers can use against us and it’s an excellent excuse for people doing bad deeds.

I would be more convinced if you had a photo...:D
IIRC The violence was in the car. That is why he had to be restrained by 3 officers, one of which would have been on his chest.
Link
Quote:
Newly released surveillance footage shows an additional angle of the George Floyd arrest where it appears Floyd is struggling with police officers while in the backseat of a Minneapolis police vehicle.

Doesn't happen to White people? Which planet are you talking about?:rolleyes:
Link
Quote:
The Georgia Bureau of Investigation said he died from a combination of the stun gun, "compression of the neck and torso" and "acute" methamphetamine intoxication.
Link
Quote:
Disturbing police body camera footage released Wednesday shows a man being restrained by Dallas officers before his death and yelling, "You're gonna kill me!"
Link
Quote:
But his wife Noelle Pama said she doesn’t want her husband’s death to be used by the movement.“What happened with my husband is really sad and it had nothing to do with police brutality,” Pama told Civil Beat Friday.
“The police showed my husband nothing but compassion,” she said. “In my heart and in my soul I don’t believe that there was any foul play.”
...
She said Pama was “combative and punching and kicking the truck’s interior before he slid out of the vehicle and began struggling with the officer and the bystander.”
Officers handcuffed and shackled Pama and he continued to struggle as they called an ambulance, Yu said
Case after case around the WORLD of people dying because they were combative and had to be restrained. The clear message is DON'T STRUGGLE, especially when it's a lost cause. What are they expecting to happen? Are they expecting to simply be let go? It would appear so.

pip08456 23-06-2020 18:37
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36040904)
Prolly white wokes.
Nope, Sir Simon Woolley.

Quote:
“The original image may have been of St Michael slaying Satan, but the figure has no horns or tail and is clearly a black man. It is a shocking depiction, and it is even more shocking that that image could be presented to ambassadors representing this country abroad,” he said.

Sephiroth 23-06-2020 18:44
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36040939)
Nope, Sir Simon Woolley.
Ah - but in saying "prolly white wokes", I was responding to:

Quote:
There are people running round looking for things to be offended about.

pip08456 23-06-2020 18:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36040940)
Ah - but in saying "prolly white wokes", I was responding to:
Ah - you're prolly right!

nomadking 23-06-2020 18:51
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Black is often associated with bad, evil, satanic, etc because that is the colour of the night. Nothing whatsoever to do with skin colour.

Pierre 23-06-2020 19:13
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040937)
IIRC The violence was in the car. That is why he had to be restrained by 3 officers, one of which would have been on his chest.
Link



Doesn't happen to White people? Which planet are you talking about?:rolleyes:
Link
Link
Link
Case after case around the WORLD of people dying because they were combative and had to be restrained. The clear message is DON'T STRUGGLE, especially when it's a lost cause. What are they expecting to happen? Are they expecting to simply be let go? It would appear so.
A public service film for our oppressed friends

https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8

Hugh 23-06-2020 19:40
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040945)
A public service film for our oppressed friends

https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8
From the LA Times four years ago... ;)

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...htmlstory.html
Quote:
It seems that every time a high-profile police shooting of a black person occurs, Americans become very interested in the skit titled "How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police.”

In the skit, Rock delivers a mock public service announcement that essentially says as long as young black men obey the law and use common sense, they will not have any trouble with the police.
Quote:
Some relate to the bitter irony of the skit’s simplistic “public service” message that cooperation with the police will keep them safe. If only.

Rock himself has recently been posting selfies when he’s pulled over by police as a criticism of racially based profiling.

https://twitter.com/chrisrock/status...rc=twsrc%5Etfw
But it’s also clear that the video seems to have a particular attraction for people who want to ignore the part that racism plays in police brutality.

Taken within the context of Rock’s body of work, most audiences see the skit, recorded more than 15 years ago, as parody – a commentary on police racism with a few in-jokes aimed at other black people. Among Rock’s tips to avoid getting beaten: “Get a white friend” to ride with.

But for some viewers, this context has been lost and the old video has taken on a strange second life as a rallying point that allows some people to avoid the difficult discussion of racism.

Pierre 23-06-2020 19:56
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36040954)
From the LA Times four years ago... ;)

https://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...htmlstory.html
Jesus, take the stick out your arse it is funny, and like all observational comedy has a ring of truth about it, but it is clearly satire.

My post and your immediate response, perfectly sums up the world right now.

Once we lose humour we lose it all.

There was another video I saw recently where a young lady also summed up perfectly the bollocks of it all. When she said.

“ As a white person I’m not allowed to have a voice on race, but then if I don’t speak out I’m considered part of the problem”.......:..:

richard s 23-06-2020 20:19
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
All Lives Matter! so we cannot say or or display print that says White Lives Matter... The aircraft towing a banner are NF, Britain First or right wing fascists were at the controls according to the press, TV news stations.

nomadking 23-06-2020 20:20
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040945)
A public service film for our oppressed friends

https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8
The assertion was made that Floyd didn't need to be restrained and it doesn't happen to White people. Both points proven to be FAKE news.

OLD BOY 23-06-2020 21:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard s (Post 36040959)
All Lives Matter! so we cannot say or or display print that says White Lives Matter... The aircraft towing a banner are NF, Britain First or right wing fascists were at the controls according to the press, TV news stations.
You are being obtuse, richard. We already accept that white lives matter. However, there are too many people who don't think that black lives do.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040960)
The assertion was made that Floyd didn't need to be restrained and it doesn't happen to White people. Both points proven to be FAKE news.
The point is that by the time Floyd was out of the car he was NOT resisting arrest. All they needed to do was to handcuff him.

Hugh 23-06-2020 21:49
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040955)
Jesus, take the stick out your arse it is funny, and like all observational comedy has a ring of truth about it, but it is clearly satire.

My post and your immediate response, perfectly sums up the world right now.

Once we lose humour we lose it all.

There was another video I saw recently where a young lady also summed up perfectly the bollocks of it all. When she said.

“ As a white person I’m not allowed to have a voice on race, but then if I don’t speak out I’m considered part of the problem”.......:..:
A) ah, but the problem is a lot of people don’t see it as satire...

B) That’s complete rubbish - the problem is that a considerable number of people don’t think there’s a problem, and that’s their "voice on race".

nomadking 23-06-2020 22:03
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36040973)
You are being obtuse, richard. We already accept that white lives matter. However, there are too many people who don't think that black lives do.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:06 ----------

The point is that by the time Floyd was out of the car he was NOT resisting arrest. All they needed to do was to handcuff him.
Handcuffed doesn't mean you are immobile.:rolleyes: You can still thrash around and/or spit on people. One of the 2 non-White officers was kneeling on his chest.
Link

Quote:
It is known that death from positional asphyxia can emerge in several ways, such as the external breathing suppression when the victim‘s torso is compressed or deformed.
...
A certain restricted posture of the neck (e.g., hyperflexion or hyperextension) can cause partial or complete airway obstruction. Lastly, the compression or flexion of the torso reduces total lung volume, functional residual capacity and pulmonary expansion, eventually making breathing ineffective
Being handcuffed with your arms behind your back probably also doesn't help. Try it with your own arms behind your back(no need to get out the handcuffs)



It was up to the one or both of the other officers to determine when it was ok to try and get him back in the car. They were the ones with the initial arrest, and they were the ones getting him out of the car. He had to be forcibly removed from the vehicle he was in. That clearly was an indication he wasn't coming quietly and peacefully.


The pressure on his neck can't have been that great, as he can be seen easily moving his jaw and head to a reasonable degree.



Of course a non-white officer actually being responsible doesn't fit the agenda.


The defence lawyers should also be able to figure these things out, which should make the results of any trial interesting.

Pierre 23-06-2020 22:06
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36040976)
A) ah, but the problem is a lot of people don’t see it as satire...
Who exactly? Were polls taken? After every episode of Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, and pretty much every comedy show, are polls taken to make sure the audience understand that it is comedy?

No they are not, the quote from the LA times you posted is 1no. Persons opinion piece. It is not “a lot if people”. I don’t even know what you consider “a lot” to be? Ev3n the author of the post you quoted uses vague terms such as “some” people. Is their “some” equal to your “ a lot”


It’s tripe. And you should know better at your age.

Quote:
B) That’s complete rubbish - the problem is that a considerable number of people don’t think there’s a problem, and that’s their "voice on race".
So if I, for example, had an opinion as a white middle aged male, a considered and objective opinion on the matter. That did not fit with the BLM narrative. Then I could express that, no problem, I wouldn’t be attacked, I would be listened to, objectively, and if and were appropriate challenged in a non-violent and threatening way?

Bollocks Hugh and you know it.

downquark1 23-06-2020 22:32
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
I think the consensus is that while the force used was within proceedure for subduing someone and wouldn't normally kill someone, the about of time he did it while he was pleading for help was criminally negligent hence the second degree murder charge.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040978)
So if I, for example, had an opinion as a white middle aged male, a considered and objective opinion on the matter. That did not fit with the BLM narrative. Then I could express that, no problem, I wouldn’t be attacked, I would be listened to, objectively, and if and were appropriate challenged in a non-violent and threatening way?

Bollocks Hugh and you know it.
I guarantee you people of any race who themselves aren't very left wing or explicitly hate Britain think we are crazy for putting up with this.

1andrew1 23-06-2020 22:44
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040878)
They think that the BBC's constitutional obligation to host him is an endorsement.
There's no constitutional need to have someone from an obscure party with no MPs on speed dial last time I checked. But I digress.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040978)
So if I, for example, had an opinion as a white middle aged male, a considered and objective opinion on the matter. That did not fit with the BLM narrative. Then I could express that, no problem, I wouldn’t be attacked, I would be listened to, objectively, and if and were appropriate challenged in a non-violent and threatening way?
I can imagine some people being a bit flaky and not expressing their views openly but I can't see you being one of them. ;)

nomadking 23-06-2020 22:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040979)
I think the consensus is that while the force used was within proceedure for subduing someone and wouldn't normally kill someone, the about of time he did it while he was pleading for help was criminally negligent hence the second degree murder charge.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:07 ----------

I guarantee you people of any race who themselves aren't very left wing or explicitly hate Britain think we are crazy for putting up with this.
But as I've pointed out, the real problem would've been the non-white officer kneeling on his chest, yet unsurprisingly he's not facing the more serious charges.

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36040988)
There's no constitutional need to have someone from an obscure party with no MPs on speed dial last time I checked. But I digress.

---------- Post added at 21:44 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------


I can imagine some people being a bit flaky and not expressing their views openly but I can't see you being one of them. ;)
It's one thing expressing views in a relatively anonymous forum such as this, but try it less anonymously and more openly and see what happens.

downquark1 23-06-2020 23:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040990)
But as I've pointed out, the real problem would've been the non-white officer kneeling on his chest, yet unsurprisingly he's not facing the more serious charges.
Is this the chap who was only in his 2nd week on the job? Accessory to murder is a hefty charge for an American police officer. I don't think they are getting away leniently.

nomadking 23-06-2020 23:39
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040995)
Is this the chap who was only in his 2nd week on the job? Accessory to murder is a hefty charge for an American police officer. I don't think they are getting away leniently.
Compared to Chauvin and second degree murder for which he isn't responsible?

downquark1 23-06-2020 23:40
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040998)
Compared to Chauvin and second degree murder for which he isn't responsible?
He was the commanding officer, there's good reason to take him as responsible.

nomadking 24-06-2020 00:24
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36040999)
He was the commanding officer, there's good reason to take him as responsible.
That's not the reason though.:rolleyes: It's because 1) it's being made all about the neck, 2) he's white. Where else has it been said that pressure on the chest was the source of the problem?:confused: The other non-white officer(Thao) involved was just standing there. He is the one who was in the position of being free to assess matters. All Chauvin could've done is ask the others if he was stable enough to allow up. The relative positions were a result of how the situation arose. The 2 inexperienced officers were the ones with the initial arrest and pulled him out of the patrol car.

The reasons for it NOT being about heavy pressure on the neck are, 1) he wouldn't have been able to say anything at all(talking requires that you move air, ie breathe, through the larynx), 2) he can be seen moving his jaw to talk, 3) he can be seen moving his head slightly.

Link
The other white officer
Quote:
A criminology graduate from the University of Minnesota, Mr Lane used to work as a guard at a juvenile detention centre and volunteered to mentor Somali school children.

ianch99 24-06-2020 00:40
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36040954)
But for some viewers, this context has been lost and the old video has taken on a strange second life as a rallying point that allows some people to avoid the difficult discussion of racism.]
I think Hugh just won the prize for the best post of the modern era :)

RichardCoulter 24-06-2020 00:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040905)
The picture isn't really about White and Black, it's about the notions of Light and Dark.
I've heard it said that the consideration of everything white/light as something positive and everything black/dark to be something seen as negative is an example of unconcious bias eg white lie, white witch v blackmail, unlucky black cat etc.

In fact, colour prejudice even extends to cats, black cats are notoriously harder to rehome according to animal shelters!

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36040920)
Unfortunately, the sneering of people like Fiona Bruce, who seems to prefer cutting him and other Brexiteers off before they have uttered a complete sentence give the game away!

---------- Post added at 16:19 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------


And where was the violence in the Floyd case, nomadking? It all came from the police, who compressed his neck for a full 9 minutes. There is no excuse for that, they could have simply handcuffed him. I trust you actually saw the video footage?

It wouldn’t have happened to a pinkskin.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------



You can interpret the Bible however you like. It’s a good weapon that preachers can use against us and it’s an excellent excuse for people doing bad deeds.

I would be more convinced if you had a photo...:D
After the incident where an American cop was filmed beating up a black man back in the 1990's, she said "I don't like them, but I think that they should be fair with them".

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040942)
Black is often associated with bad, evil, satanic, etc because that is the colour of the night. Nothing whatsoever to do with skin colour.
...and the night will have traditionally been seen as dangerous many years ago as that's when predators are about.

nomadking 24-06-2020 01:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041004)
I've heard it said that the consideration of everything white/light as something positive and everything black/dark to be something seen as negative is an example of unconcious bias eg white lie, white witch v blackmail, unlucky black cat etc.

In fact, colour prejudice even extends to cats, black cats are notoriously harder to rehome according to animal shelters!

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:46 ----------



After the incident where an American cop was filmed beating up a black man back in the 1990's, she said "I don't like them, but I think that they should be fair with them".

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------



...and the night will have traditionally been seen as dangerous many years ago as that's when predators are about.
Unconscious bias? What complete and utter nonsense the whole thing is.

The notion of Light=Good and Dark=Bad, has been around for thousands of years, and many parts of the world.
Quote:
Some scholars believe that key concepts of Zoroastrian eschatology and demonology influenced the Abrahamic religions. On the other hand, Zoroastrianism itself inherited ideas from other belief systems and, like other "practiced" religions, accommodates some degree of syncretism, with Zoroastrianism in Sogdia, the Kushan Empire, Armenia, China, and other places incorporating local and foreign practices and deities. Zoroastrian influences on Hungarian, Slavic, Ossetian, Turkic and Mongol mythologies have also been noted, all of which bearing extensive light-dark dualisms and possible sun god theonyms related to Hvare-khshaeta
.

The phrase "hell is utter darkness" is in Exodus of the Old Testament.

Hugh 24-06-2020 01:25
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040978)
Who exactly? Were polls taken? After every episode of Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, and pretty much every comedy show, are polls taken to make sure the audience understand that it is comedy?

No they are not, the quote from the LA times you posted is 1no. Persons opinion piece. It is not “a lot if people”. I don’t even know what you consider “a lot” to be? Ev3n the author of the post you quoted uses vague terms such as “some” people. Is their “some” equal to your “ a lot”


It’s tripe. And you should know better at your age.



So if I, for example, had an opinion as a white middle aged male, a considered and objective opinion on the matter. That did not fit with the BLM narrative. Then I could express that, no problem, I wouldn’t be attacked, I would be listened to, objectively, and if and were appropriate challenged in a non-violent and threatening way?

Bollocks Hugh and you know it.
Please accept my heartfelt condolences on your oppression, and the suffering and anguish you are having to go through - thoughts and prayers are with you...

papa smurf 24-06-2020 08:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36041011)
Please accept my heartfelt condolences on your oppression, and the suffering and anguish you are having to go through - thoughts and prayers are with you...
Don't worry you can be outraged on his behalf :dozey:

Maggy 24-06-2020 09:02
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Around and around and around we go..and yet no real suggestions to address the situation.

As I see it it's not easy given that white people feel on the defensive but if we could get past that maybe we could come up with some equitable solutions that don't impact unfairly on any ethnic or racial grouping?

papa smurf 24-06-2020 09:50
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36041018)
Around and around and around we go..and yet no real suggestions to address the situation.

As I see it it's not easy given that white people feel on the defensive but if we could get past that maybe we could come up with some equitable solutions that don't impact unfairly on any ethnic or racial grouping?
Including the ethnically white population?

downquark1 24-06-2020 09:53
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36041018)
Around and around and around we go..and yet no real suggestions to address the situation.

As I see it it's not easy given that white people feel on the defensive but if we could get past that maybe we could come up with some equitable solutions that don't impact unfairly on any ethnic or racial grouping?
Systemic problems require absolute expert knowledge to address and the advocacy movements have not been making any attempts to educate people. Take Trumps executive order of a police database: I've listened to hours and hours of stuff about the US Police and I didn't even know that was a problem.

And even if we had solutions we are not the "correct" people to offer them in this narrative.

RichardCoulter 24-06-2020 10:07
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Correction of earlier post (it won't let me edit it):

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041004)
I've heard it said that the consideration of everything white/light as something positive and everything black/dark to be something seen as negative is an example of unconcious bias eg white lie, white witch v blackmail, unlucky black cat etc.

In fact, colour prejudice even extends to cats, black cats are notoriously harder to rehome according to animal shelters!

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:46 ----------



After the incident where an American cop was filmed beating up a black man back in the 1990's, an elderly lady once said to me"I don't like them, but I think that they should be fair with them".

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------



...and the night will have traditionally been seen as dangerous many years ago as that's when predators are about.

denphone 24-06-2020 10:15
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041022)
Correction of earlier post (it won't let me edit it):
You have two hours to edit a post once its posted Richard and after that it cannot be edited.

OLD BOY 24-06-2020 10:47
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36040977)
Handcuffed doesn't mean you are immobile.:rolleyes: You can still thrash around and/or spit on people. One of the 2 non-White officers was kneeling on his chest.
Link

Being handcuffed with your arms behind your back probably also doesn't help. Try it with your own arms behind your back(no need to get out the handcuffs)
If you actually watch the relevant section of the video, you will see that he was not resisting arrest when he was then pinned to the ground for a full 9 minutes. He did not struggle and he told the officers he could not breathe. He was in that position for 9 minutes, for God sake! We all saw it. We heard him pleading for his life, but they did not care. So why are you defending the police? Do you really think that was reasonable behaviour from professional police officers?

You cannot seriously expect to be able to divert attention by referring to the black policeman, who had been with the force for just a couple of weeks and therefore would have been doing as he was ordered to do.

The rest of the civilised world is appalled and disgusted by the behaviour of the police in this case and you should stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Pierre 24-06-2020 11:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36041011)
Please accept my heartfelt condolences on your oppression, and the suffering and anguish you are having to go through - thoughts and prayers are with you...
what are you on about? I've never said I'm oppressed, I've got white privilege after all.

But nice little trick there to just type anything you want to try belittle my post, because you haven't actually got any plausible answer to it.

Pah!

Damien 24-06-2020 11:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041021)
Systemic problems require absolute expert knowledge to address and the advocacy movements have not been making any attempts to education people. Take Trumps executive order of a police database: I've listened to hours and hours of stuff about the US Police and I didn't even know that was a problem..
This is something people have said for a while in the States. That police who are fired can move elsewhere without a problem. Like you, I didn't know it was a problem though. It's much easier to see what the United States should do than what we should do. I am not sure if that's a problem with the movement here being too Americanised, that America's problems are so much more obvious or a combination of those.

Maggy 24-06-2020 11:45
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041020)
Including the ethnically white population?
Really? You took from what I said that I didn't include EVERYBODY including you? So do I have to specifically include you every time?Even though I have already included you..Though do you identify as white or blue these days?

1andrew1 24-06-2020 11:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36041026)
If you actually watch the relevant section of the video, you will see that he was not resisting arrest when he was then pinned to the ground for a full 9 minutes. He did not struggle and he told the officers he could not breathe. He was in that position for 9 minutes, for God sake! We all saw it. We heard him pleading for his life, but they did not care. So why are you defending the police? Do you really think that was reasonable behaviour from professional police officers?

You cannot seriously expect to be able to divert attention by referring to the black policeman, who had been with the force for just a couple of weeks and therefore would have been doing as he was ordered to do.

The rest of the civilised world is appalled and disgusted by the behaviour of the police in this case and you should stop trying to defend the indefensible.
Spot on, Old Boy. Nail on the head!

papa smurf 24-06-2020 12:00
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36041032)
Really? You took from what I said that I didn't include EVERYBODY including you? So do I have to specifically include you every time?Even though I have already included you..Though do you identify as white or blue these days?
I'd go with olive.

Julian 24-06-2020 12:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041035)
I'd go with olive.
A little skinny for me but each to their own. :)

nomadking 24-06-2020 13:16
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36041026)
If you actually watch the relevant section of the video, you will see that he was not resisting arrest when he was then pinned to the ground for a full 9 minutes. He did not struggle and he told the officers he could not breathe. He was in that position for 9 minutes, for God sake! We all saw it. We heard him pleading for his life, but they did not care. So why are you defending the police? Do you really think that was reasonable behaviour from professional police officers?

You cannot seriously expect to be able to divert attention by referring to the black policeman, who had been with the force for just a couple of weeks and therefore would have been doing as he was ordered to do.

The rest of the civilised world is appalled and disgusted by the behaviour of the police in this case and you should stop trying to defend the indefensible.
I'M DEFENDING THE TRUTH. Whatever way you look at it, the problem WASN'T the neck, it was the CHEST. THAT IS A FACT.

The question STILL remains, what would he have done when he was allowed back up. The video doesn't show too much of him, and the wider viewpoint is when the camera is shifting around a lot. The 3 officers were effectively blocking any full view. You can CLEARLY see he IS moving around, involving his right shoulder.

He RESISTED getting out of his vehicle. He had to be forcibly dragged out. He deliberately dropped to the ground when approaching the patrol car. If he was thrashing around in the patrol car, he might've been removed for HIS OWN SAFETY to calm down. Thrashing around in a confined space, isn't a good idea.

Do we know what Leung was or wasn't ordered to do?


He was saying a lot of words for somebody who supposedly couldn't breathe. Talking requires the movement of air through the larynx, ie breathing. If you can say "I can't breathe" a total of 16 times, along with other things, you clearly CAN breathe.

Link
Quote:
Under “other significant conditions”, it said, Floyd suffered from heart disease and hypertension, and listed fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use.
And he was planning on driving.

Quote:
Baden and Wilson found that weight being applied to Floyd’s back, his hands being cuffed behind his back and the position of his body, where he was also at times being restrained by other officers as he lay on the ground, “were contributory factors because they impaired the ability of Mr Floyd’s diaphragm to function”.
Methamphetamine
Quote:
A user may feel anxious and confused, be unable to sleep, have mood swings, and become violent.
...
Angry outbursts or mood swings
Psychotic behavior, such as paranoia and hallucinations
Fentanyl
Quote:
Fentanyl's effects include
  • extreme happiness
  • drowsiness
  • nausea
  • confusion
  • constipation
  • sedation
  • problems breathing
  • unconsciousness
Floyd apparently claimed to be claustrophobic and didn't want to get in the patrol car.:confused: He had just been in a car of similar size.

Carth 24-06-2020 13:20
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
@ nomadking

If I ever get into trouble with the authorities that leads to a court appearance, can I ask for you as my defence lawyer?

. . . please :D

downquark1 24-06-2020 13:29
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
This is all certain to be brought up at the trial.

figgyburn 24-06-2020 14:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...erate-flag-ban

The real story...........


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...arage-n1231951

Oh that must have hurt the bampots, the real truth.

1andrew1 24-06-2020 14:52
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36041039)
@ nomadking

If I ever get into trouble with the authorities that leads to a court appearance, can I ask for you as my defence lawyer?

. . . please :D
:D:D:D

Paul 24-06-2020 17:19
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36041039)
@ nomadking

If I ever get into trouble with the authorities that leads to a court appearance, can I ask for you as my defence lawyer?

. . . please :D
+1 :)

RichardCoulter 24-06-2020 19:38
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Virgin Media have now put a black tile up on TiVo with 'Black lives matter' in white lettering.

Pressing it leads to various VOD content.

papa smurf 24-06-2020 19:46
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041070)
Virgin Media have now put a black tile up on TiVo with 'Black lives matter' in white lettering.

Pressing it leads to various VOD content.
I'll be avoiding that thanks for the heads up.

Sephiroth 24-06-2020 20:04
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041070)
Virgin Media have now put a black tile up on TiVo with 'Black lives matter' in white lettering.

Pressing it leads to various VOD content.
Should really be black lettering.

Hugh 24-06-2020 20:36
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36040978)
Who exactly? Were polls taken? After every episode of Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, and pretty much every comedy show, are polls taken to make sure the audience understand that it is comedy?

No they are not, the quote from the LA times you posted is 1no. Persons opinion piece. It is not “a lot if people”. I don’t even know what you consider “a lot” to be? Ev3n the author of the post you quoted uses vague terms such as “some” people. Is their “some” equal to your “ a lot”


It’s tripe. And you should know better at your age.



So if I, for example, had an opinion as a white middle aged male, a considered and objective opinion on the matter. That did not fit with the BLM narrative. Then I could express that, no problem, I wouldn’t be attacked, I would be listened to, objectively, and if and were appropriate challenged in a non-violent and threatening way?

Bollocks Hugh and you know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041027)
what are you on about? I've never said I'm oppressed, I've got white privilege after all.

But nice little trick there to just type anything you want to try belittle my post, because you haven't actually got any plausible answer to it.

Pah!

Pierre 24-06-2020 20:49
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
??????

You have a funny perception of oppression.


I stated white people aren’t allowed to have a voice on the race issue and are then criticised if they don’t speak out.

You, literally, rubbished that statement

I then pointed out the hypocrisy and a scenario that my voice and view would not be accepted by BLM.


That is not me being oppressed, just pointing out reality.


Oppression was mentioned by you, for one reason and one reason only, to make a snide and what you thought an oh so clever and amusing put down.


You failed in every area.

Hugh 24-06-2020 21:40
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Thank you for your feedback - it must be difficult for you, when you feel that people of a different colour wouldn’t accept your voice or view.

Pierre 24-06-2020 21:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomadking
The list of people who have lost their jobs or been suspended for criticizing or even questioning the BLM movement is long—and growing daily
Add two more to that.

https://news.sky.com/story/burnley-f...s-job-12014075

Some choice quotes:

Quote:
, the manager of the Blackpool Council-owned airport, Stephen Smith, said: "Blackpool Airport and Blackpool Council are outraged by this incident.
Outraged!

Quote:
"We stand against racism of any kind and absolutely do not condone the activity. The message was offensive and the action reprehensible."
Just trying to workout how it is racist? I wasn’t offended by it.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36041081)
Thank you for your feedback - it must be difficult for you, when you feel that people of a different colour wouldn’t accept your voice or view.
It’s not difficult for me in the slightest, I couldn’t give a monkeys. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that my view/voice wouldn’t be accepted by the BLM movement ( which is a Fundamentalist movement, I’m sure many reasonable black people would listen with consideration) due to colour of my skin, which is hilariously ironic.

Thank you for.................well thanks anyway.

Carth 24-06-2020 21:50
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
I thought Blackpool airport closed years ago?

Pierre 24-06-2020 22:16
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36041084)
I thought Blackpool airport closed years ago?
No, it became seasonal for a while, Still might be, but remains open for private aircraft.

RichardCoulter 24-06-2020 22:18
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041082)
Add two more to that.

https://news.sky.com/story/burnley-f...s-job-12014075

Some choice quotes:



Outraged!



Just trying to workout how it is racist? I wasn’t offended by it.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------



It’s not difficult for me in the slightest, I couldn’t give a monkeys. Just pointing out the hypocrisy that my view/voice wouldn’t be accepted by the BLM movement ( which is a Fundamentalist movement, I’m sure many reasonable black people would listen with consideration) due to colour of my skin, which is hilariously ironic.

Thank you for.................well thanks anyway.
It does seem to be the case that some employers are now so keen to avoid even any slight suggestion of racism that any question or criticism of black people or BLM is now deemed to be racist. This isn't on as nobody is above question or criticism (as long as it's authentic, comes from the right place and done in a respectful manner).

I remember back in the 1990's being at a local government conference and a speaker saying that any criticism of black people was automatically racist! Obviously, nobody dared to question this as it was easier & safer to just keep quiet, but this attitude now seems to have leaked into the outer world.

The radical leaders of the UK BLM movement must be delighted to be able to silence any opposition with the use of the R word.

Damien 24-06-2020 22:22
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041082)
It appears not just to be that. https://dailystarpost.com/burnley-fa...ssages-online/

Quote:
Jake Hepple ranted about ‘P***s’ while his partner, Megan Rambadt, (who he is pictured with) tweeted that her town was ‘like a foreign country’ before adding in a follow-up post, ‘They need sending back on banana boats, stinkin b******s’

The Burnley supporter had posted a string of offensive comments on Facebook, including a recent post that read: ‘Why would anyone in their right mind pay £90 for the new England shirt when it probably cost a company full of tree swinging spear throwers about 80p to make? Not a chance I’m paying that.’
People will debate if someone should be fired over social media postings but it's not as if they were fired merely for the banner, albeit the banner is why people went though those social media posts.

downquark1 24-06-2020 22:26
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
"You bring me the man, I'll find you the crime."

RichardCoulter 24-06-2020 22:26
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36041087)
It appears not just to be that. https://dailystarpost.com/burnley-fa...ssages-online/



People will debate if someone should be fired over social media postings but it's not as if they were fired merely for the banner, albeit the banner is why people went though those social media posts.
Ahh, that put's a different slant on this particular case altogether.

It is right that people be disciplined for social media posts as it's just the same as saying things, in fact it's even worse when it's in writing.

Pierre 24-06-2020 22:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36041087)
It appears not just to be that. https://dailystarpost.com/burnley-fa...ssages-online/



People will debate if someone should be fired over social media postings but it's not as if they were fired merely for the banner, albeit the banner is why people went though those social media posts.
Fair enough, I’m not here to defend that behaviour, the Sky article didn’t have that detail.

Damien 24-06-2020 22:41
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041088)
"You bring me the man, I'll find you the crime."
It's the world of social media. If you come to people's attention then they'll find your feed. It seems rather naive of him to come out as being behind the banner if this stuff was on his public profile.

I am personally uneasy about individual people who are not public figures becoming the focus of a media and social media storm. It's not a proper and fair process. However it is the modern world, people need to be careful about social media.

downquark1 24-06-2020 22:45
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36041092)
It's the world of social media. If you come to people's attention then they'll find your feed. It seems rather naive of him to come out as being behind the banner if this stuff was on his public profile.

I am personally uneasy about individual people who are not public figures becoming the focus of a media and social media storm. It's not a proper and fair process. However it is the modern world, people need to be careful about social media.
Well if these people were intelligent they wouldn't get pushed around so easily.

Damien 24-06-2020 22:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041093)
Well if these people were intelligent they wouldn't get pushed around so easily.
Which people?

downquark1 24-06-2020 22:52
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36041094)
Which people?
Tommy Robinson and friends

Carth 25-06-2020 00:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36041092)
I am personally uneasy about individual people who are not public figures becoming the focus of a media and social media storm. It's not a proper and fair process. However it is the modern world, people need to be careful about social media.
Funnily enough, that's what kicked it all off ;)

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 22:53 ----------

Don't know why this has escaped the attention of people here . .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53165938

Quote:
"I ran from the police because I had a small amount of cannabis in my possession for personal use - and I had fresh in my mind the memory of a similar encounter with TSG [Territorial Support Group] officers only the previous day when I was mistreated, arrested and charged for possession of a similar amount of cannabis."
yeah, the police were only chasing you 'cos you're black, righto :rolleyes:

heero_yuy 25-06-2020 08:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 


:D

nomadking 25-06-2020 12:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041040)
This is all certain to be brought up at the trial.
But is it? The problem is that the truth is going to suppressed for the sake of that thing called "social cohesion".


Considering trained lawyers are also on the prosecution side, it should have already changed the narrative surrounding who gets charged with what. That hasn't happened, and almost certainly never will.

downquark1 25-06-2020 13:16
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36041132)
But is it? The problem is that the truth is going to suppressed for the sake of that thing called "social cohesion".


Considering trained lawyers are also on the prosecution side, it should have already changed the narrative surrounding who gets charged with what. That hasn't happened, and almost certainly never will.
I imagine it will be brought up (at least if is isn't trivially contradicted by citing precedent where the commanding officer was held responsible). Whether or not the press choose to report it is another matter.

nomadking 25-06-2020 13:36
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041136)
I imagine it will be brought up (at least if is isn't trivially contradicted by citing precedent where the commanding officer was held responsible). Whether or not the press choose to report it is another matter.
But as I have to keep pointing out, apart from me, who else is making it out to be anything other than the neck issue? Apparently the Police are told to ignore any pleas of "I can't breathe", especially if they're managed to say it sixteen times, along with a lot of other things. Did he say at any point something like "Ok now, I'll behave myself and get into the vehicle quietly"?


As if any judge or jury is going to pay any heed to it.:rolleyes:

downquark1 25-06-2020 13:59
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Well concerns about jury contamination are entirely valid unfortunately.

nomadking 25-06-2020 14:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36041141)
Well concerns about jury contamination are entirely valid unfortunately.
:confused: Nothing to do with any fictitious jury contamination. Anything other than a full on guilty verdict is just not going to be allowed.


The "fascist" forces have well and truly been unleashed. All downhill from now on.

Maggy 25-06-2020 14:17
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36041143)
:confused: Nothing to do with any fictitious jury contamination. Anything other than a full on guilty verdict is just not going to be allowed.


The "fascist" forces have well and truly been unleashed. All downhill from now on.
So to sum up we might as well do nothing at all and just give up and leave it alone.

tweetiepooh 25-06-2020 14:18
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36041074)
Should really be black lettering.
Black on White or White on Black?

Pierre 25-06-2020 14:20
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36041143)
:confused: Nothing to do with any fictitious jury contamination. Anything other than a full on guilty verdict is just not going to be allowed.


The "fascist" forces have well and truly been unleashed. All downhill from now on.
The issue is though, no matter what he did before being restrained, the way he was restrained was unacceptable.

Now, the he acted can be brought forward as mitigation into the way the cops handled it but they are guilty of accidental death, and the fact that they ignored his pleas that he couldn't breath the prosecution may even ask for the accidental part be removed.

Even without the sideshow, if the facts were brought before any jury, I would expect them to be found guilty of whatever the US version of accidental death is.

Carth 25-06-2020 14:44
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
I wonder how they're going to find 12 impartial people for the jury?

nomadking 25-06-2020 14:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041146)
The issue is though, no matter what he did before being restrained, the way he was restrained was unacceptable.

Now, the he acted can be brought forward as mitigation into the way the cops handled it but they are guilty of accidental death, and the fact that they ignored his pleas that he couldn't breath the prosecution may even ask for the accidental part be removed.

Even without the sideshow, if the facts were brought before any jury, I would expect them to be found guilty of whatever the US version of accidental death is.
But who was guilty and of what? The only person who could even remotely be charged with murder, is Kueng. The reason he needed to be restrained was because of HIS behaviour. How else was he going to be restrained? Even in the fictitious scenario of him not needing to be restrained, how exactly do you restrain somebody, in order the stop them injuring others or themselves? The police officers didn't do it for fun.:rolleyes: As I said, the police are instructed to ignore bogus pleas, especially ones able to be made 16 times. At no point did he indicate he was going to go quietly.

papa smurf 25-06-2020 17:33
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36041152)
I wonder how they're going to find 12 impartial people for the jury?
Already tried and convicted in the court of public opinion , no justice just mob rule.

Carth 25-06-2020 17:47
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041179)
Already tried and convicted in the court of public opinion , no justice just mob rule.

My thoughts entirely to be honest. I'm sure we will all be treated to the 'trial of the decade' streamed live . . on every channel apart from . . . err . . um . . a couple of the food channels :rolleyes:

papa smurf 25-06-2020 18:56
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Interesting video showing why Black lives are so special

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews...ndishes-sword/

Taf 25-06-2020 18:57
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041179)
Already tried and convicted in the court of public opinion , no justice just mob rule.
Trial by (biased) news media.

Pierre 25-06-2020 18:57
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36041156)
But who was guilty and of what? The only person who could even remotely be charged with murder, is Kueng. The reason he needed to be restrained was because of HIS behaviour. How else was he going to be restrained? Even in the fictitious scenario of him not needing to be restrained, how exactly do you restrain somebody, in order the stop them injuring others or themselves? The police officers didn't do it for fun.:rolleyes: As I said, the police are instructed to ignore bogus pleas, especially ones able to be made 16 times. At no point did he indicate he was going to go quietly.
There’s 4no. Police officers with guns. cuff him , hands behind back, and sit him on his arse. Looking at the shape of he wouldn’t have been able to get up.

They failed, visibly, in their duty of care to somebody being detained - there is no way around it.

nomadking 25-06-2020 19:25
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041206)
Interesting video showing why Black lives are so special

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews...ndishes-sword/
Other aspect to it.
Link
Quote:
Twenty-two police officers have been injured during clashes at an illegal street party involving an estimated 400 people in south London.
Two officers and two people at the party were taken to hospital following the "unlicensed music event" in Brixton on Wednesday night.
Four people were arrested and the Met described the attacks on police as "totally unacceptable".


---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041208)
There’s 4no. Police officers with guns. cuff him , hands behind back, and sit him on his arse. Looking at the shape of he wouldn’t have been able to get up.

They failed, visibly, in their duty of care to somebody being detained - there is no way around it.
In what way do suggest they use their guns?:rolleyes:
How would simply handcuffing him, with hands behind the back, stopped him from thrashing around, especially using his legs and/or spitting. He was already handcuffed, hands behind the back, and sitting(or trying to be sat) in the patrol car. At some point, they had to be able to get him in that car, and down to the station. He might've been interviewed by the Secret Service. He was accused of a Federal offence.

Short of using Chloroform, what else were they expected to do?

Pierre 25-06-2020 19:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
In what way do suggest they use their guns?:rolleyes:
I didn’t say they should use them. The fact they have them is a deterrent. Is the point I was making.

Quote:
How would simply handcuffing him, with hands behind the back, stopped him from thrashing around, especially using his legs and/or spitting
. He can thrash around as much as he likes on his arse, I reckon he would have about 90 seconds in him before he was blowing out his backside.

Quote:
He was already handcuffed, hands behind the back, and sitting(or trying to be sat) in the patrol car. At some point, they had to be able to get him in that car, and down to the station.
They should have waited until he was compliant or called for more offices and put him in a van like they do here.



Quote:
He might've been interviewed by the Secret Service. He was accused of a Federal offence.

Short of using Chloroform, what else were they expected to do?
not kill him would be the starting point.

You’re trying to defend the indefensible.

I’m sure there are lots of scenarios that could have taken place that didn’t result in his death

nomadking 25-06-2020 20:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041213)
I didn’t say they should use them. The fact they have them is a deterrent. Is the point I was making.

. He can thrash around as much as he likes on his arse, I reckon he would have about 90 seconds in him before he was blowing out his backside.

They should have waited until he was compliant or called for more offices and put him in a van like they do here.

not kill him would be the starting point.

You’re trying to defend the indefensible.

I’m sure there are lots of scenarios that could have taken place that didn’t result in his death
Why mention guns if you're not expecting them to use them in some way?:rolleyes: A deterrent is only a deterrent, if you're prepared to use it? Are you really saying they should've been prepared to shoot him?:shocked:

Thrashing around in a confined space is not a good idea. If only for that person's own safety.
Difficult to be expected to come up with examples.
In the REAL WORLD.
Link
Quote:
ALBANY — A man arrested by Albany police who was being transported by detectives in an unmarked car injured himself during an agitated back seat outburst and was taken by ambulance to Albany Medical Center with minor injuries Friday afternoon
Link
Quote:
Williams began trying to knock out the side window by repeatedly hitting it with his head.
...
The coroner ruled that Williams's death was the type of sudden death that occurs in individuals that are markedly agitated and are physically restrained.
UK ACPO advice
Quote:
A violent or restrained detainee must not be placed in a police vehicle unsupervised. Detainees who have struggled violently should not be placed in a vehicle unrestrained.
...
Where a detainee becomes violent, staff should, where practicable,
stop the vehicle, regain control and only then resume the journey; it may be necessary to call for assistance and to change to a more
suitable vehicle.
What should they have whilst waiting for any fictional van? Let him run away? Even in a van he would've needed restraining.

Plenty of examples of where UK Police have had to use force.

Hugh 25-06-2020 21:14
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by figgyburn (Post 36041043)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...erate-flag-ban

The real story...........


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/sports/...arage-n1231951

Oh that must have hurt the bampots, the real truth.
Here is a picture of that Garage Door pull rope, as released by NASCAR - for comparison, here is one from a previous NASCAR race...

https://www.foxsports.com/nascar/sto...lladega-062520

The one in his allocated garage had been there since October 2019, apparently...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1593112106 https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1593112262

Pierre 25-06-2020 21:49
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36041217)
Why mention guns if you're not expecting them to use them in some way?:rolleyes: A deterrent is only a deterrent, if you're prepared to use it? Are you really saying they should've been prepared to shoot him?:shocked:
You Are very good at putting words into people’s mouths, and making conclusions on that, based actually on what you have said.

They’ve got guns, they’ve got batons and they’ve got pepper spray and there’s 4 of them, In short they were well enough equipped to deal with one man - without killing him.

Quote:
Thrashing around in a confined space is not a good idea. If only for that person's own safety.
he was outside the vehicle.

Quote:
Difficult to be expected to come up with examples.
In the REAL WORLD.
. I didn’t say put him in the car, nor did I say unrestrained.

Quote:
What should they have whilst waiting for any fictional van? Let him run away?
Why is the van fictional?

No, like I said, 4 guys, cuff him, put him on his arse, next to the car, wait until he calms down. Hold him down if necessary - just not on his neck.

Quote:
Even in a van he would've needed restraining.
I’ve never said he shouldn’t be restrained. But cuffed and put in the back of a van (A proper caged van] by himself. He would’ve calmed down.

Quote:
Plenty of examples of where UK Police have had to use force.
I’ve never said they shouldn’t use force.

Bottom line is, they are a professional police force, he was one guy, unarmed, they should have the skill and ability to restrain him, detain him and immobilise him if necessary, without killing him. It is really that simple and straightforward.

RichardCoulter 25-06-2020 22:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36041074)
Should really be black lettering.
But then all you'd see was a black square!

---------- Post added at 21:08 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36041206)
Interesting video showing why Black lives are so special

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews...ndishes-sword/
A certain element of black youths now obviously think that they have carte blanche to do whatever they like. The older members of the black community that I know are ashamed of them.

nomadking 25-06-2020 22:48
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36041224)
You Are very good at putting words into people’s mouths, and making conclusions on that, based actually on what you have said.

They’ve got guns, they’ve got batons and they’ve got pepper spray and there’s 4 of them, In short they were well enough equipped to deal with one man - without killing him.

he was outside the vehicle.

. I didn’t say put him in the car, nor did I say unrestrained.


Why is the van fictional?

No, like I said, 4 guys, cuff him, put him on his arse, next to the car, wait until he calms down. Hold him down if necessary - just not on his neck.


I’ve never said he shouldn’t be restrained. But cuffed and put in the back of a van (A proper caged van] by himself. He would’ve calmed down.


I’ve never said they shouldn’t use force.

Bottom line is, they are a professional police force, he was one guy, unarmed, they should have the skill and ability to restrain him, detain him and immobilise him if necessary, without killing him. It is really that simple and straightforward.
This is what your words were.
"I didn’t say they should use them. The fact they have them is a deterrent. Is the point I was making.". As I pointed out, a deterrent is only a deterrent if you're prepared and expected to use it. By using the word "deterrent", you implied they should've been prepared to use that deterrent. If in your imagination, simply carrying a gun should subdue somebody else, how come he was kicking off anyway? In what way do you expect them to have used any batons?:rolleyes: Pepper spray doesn't immobilise you, it just disorientates you even more.

At one point he was in the patrol car. He was handcuffed and in a caged vehicle. Why would it being a van make it any different? He had to be removed from the patrol car because of whatever he was doing in there.

How were they expected to restrain and immobilise him until this hypothetical van turned up? How long would that have taken?

When exactly did he show signs of calming down? He was under the influence of 2 drugs. He had to be forcibly dragged out of his car, dropped to the ground to try and avoid being put in the patrol car. Got up to whatever in the car. He never said or indicated "I give up, I'll come quietly".

He will have been needed to be restrained, because of the risk of injuring HIMSELF. They wouldn't have removed him from the patrol car just for fun.

Sephiroth 25-06-2020 22:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 36041227)
But then all you'd see was a black square!

---------- Post added at 21:08 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------



A certain element of black youths now obviously think that they have carte blanche to do whatever they like. The older members of the black community that I know are ashamed of them.
"Carte blanche", eh? Almost as bad as the White Cliffs of Dover! Good job it was "Blue Bells"!


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