Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Why on earth would I want to side with a man like that? I may want Brexit, but that doesn’t mean I agree with everything any Brexiteer may say or do!

In case you were unaware, that man is described in Wikipedia in the following terms:

‘Once a Trotskyist Marxist, O'Neill was formerly a member of Revolutionary Communist Party and wrote for the party's journal, Living Marxism. O'Neill self identifies as a Marxist libertarian and writes for a range of publications.’

I am most truly offended that you could ever think of me as a Marxist and atheist, Dave!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Brendan O’Neill is what l would call a contemptible human being as his divisive and incendiary rhetoric should not be tolerated by anyone.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

So you are ok with the opposition calling Boris a liar?

All I am saying is that the opposition cannot take the moral high ground here. They are just as guilty of name-calling and to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. If they want any legitimacy at all when they claim to be oh so offended, then they can stop the name-calling themselves and set a good example.

As for Boris, I actually believe that he means it when he says we will leave on 31 October. You underestimate him if you don't believe he will stick to that.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris lies. It’s an observable fact to anyone who is unbiased. That’s straightforward denial of the truth.

We will not leave on October 31, the sooner that is accepted and working to a solution after that date the better.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Absolutely. I can't understand why Dave thought I would support him in any way!

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:59 ----------

Oh, so you are ok with the opposition calling Boris a liar (which is unparliamentary language) but not ok for the PM to describe Hilary Benn's man trap as the surrender bill? Interesting.

As for the 31 October statement, can we quote you on that?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It’s not a surrender bill. It’s making sure Boris can’t force No Deal unless Parliament approves it. That’s all it does. It doesn’t reverse Brexit, it doesn’t stop Boris going for a General Election and a Parliamentary mandate. Doesn’t prevent “no deal” at a later date.

It surrenders precisely nothing. It’s a delaying mechanism, that’s all.

Boris lying is an observable fact. It’s not Parliamentary to say he lied in a statement to the House of Commons, that’s all. Public statements, newspaper columns, all fair game on the truth barometer.

And absolutely you can quote me on October 31st. I played this game in March.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Just a thought. Boris writes a letter requesting an extention on 30th Oct in keeping with the BennAct (before the 31st) puts a first class stamp on it and sends an underling to the post office to get proof of posting.

Letter sent with the request before the 31st.
Proof recieved.
Letter recieved too late to act on.
Law upheld, we've still left.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's all hype, and you know it. Most Brexiteers would agree that Benn's cup of cold sick is a surrender bill.

Anyhow, I know your take on this and you know mine so let's just accept that and leave it there before drawing yet another circle to go around multiple times.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

no we have parliament to do that.

And he is different from the all the politicians that said they would respect the result of the referendum (all on record) and have since moved from that position or by their actions prevented it.

Nothing. So I don’t buy the faux outrage.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yes, if you are happy to stop trolling I’m happy to stop challenging you.

---------- Post added at 16:21 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

I’m sure Governments don’t routinely use post to exchange information in the field of international diplomacy.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Quite, Pierre. It's all such a nonsense and yet they continue on. The remainers in Parliament who are blocking Brexit have got one hell of a shock coming, so I hope they are enjoying their moment of glory.

I am truly excited by Boris's agenda, which I think will win the majority over, and when people finally experience the benefits of Brexit, a completely different, optimistic mood will envelop the country.

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------

:sniper:

Oh, sorry, no offence meant! :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If that’s true what are you getting all animated about? Sit back, slippers on, feet up, Brexit happens, Boris wins election, glorious future?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I'm sure they don't but it would comply with the "Surrender Act" as specified.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

False equivalence. Calling someone who's been sacked by The Times for making up quotes and sacked by Michael Howard as shadow arts minister for lying about an affair - a liar is correct. Calling people who vote differently from you traitors is not.
I don't underestimate the PM, I just review the facts. He can't leave without a deal and getting a deal eluded his predecessor for three years and he's only got a month!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

According to whom?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Except that they are being called traitors because they are ignoring the result of the referendum. Not because they voted 'remain'. You are deliberately skewing the argument here, Andrew.

By the way, if we can't leave with a suitable deal, we will leave without one. You may not think that's possible. Watch and learn.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

What if he sends two letters?

Letter One saying he is (under duress) asking for an extension.
Letter Two telling them to ignore the previous letter


Is it like these TV quiz shows where the first answer is the only one accepted? :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

You would think the good folk of Wokingham would be too busy planning street parties than trying to defend the use of potentially provocative language. ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

You drive a bus through the Benn Act anyway.

He has to “seek” to obtain an extension, not “obtain” an extension. He has to write a letter “ in the form” of the one appendixed, not write that letter word for word.

We’ll see.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

One thing we've learnt of late is that we risk underestimating legal brains at our peril.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

They aren’t ignoring the result of the referendum. Leaving with a deal is leaving.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No skewing going on from my end Old Boy. Traitorous is a provocative term. No ifs, buts or maybes and if the wrong people hear it used this way, it can lead to regrettable acts.
Underestimate law-makers at your peril. I think the attorney general is no match for those who drafted the anti-no-deal bill.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Can we stop the deliberate use of pejorative terms designed to wind people up? This just goads people and encourages responses which gets the debate nowhere.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

What. Like “Brexit”?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

When your donors have £8bn bet against Britain’s economy, and for a plunging value of the pound, it’s laughable to call anyone a traitor.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Your attitude, echoed by others, is based on assumption that you, and by inference, your position regards the current situation is without flaw or weakness. Whether you have arrived here through your own personal deliberations or by the acceptance of opinions from the various Leave leaning media sources probably is secondary. What is important is that this attitude, currently being espoused by Cummins et al. in No 10, is a sinister one.

It is sinister in that is allows no fault or challenge. It ignores the many facts that would, if presented alongside, would render it impotent. The subliminal message of this campaign is to encourage the weak minded to violence, rioting, etc. Moreover, it presents the challenge that if you attempt to argue with this process, the consequences would be dire.

Johnson's behaviour in the Commons is no accident. It is part of the plan. 2016 proved the playbook works. Just reuse it again.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The result of the referendum was to leave. If it can be done with a deal then fair enough, no problem. Boris and his team are actively trying to come to one.

The difference is to say you can't leave without one does go against the referendum result.

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:21 ----------

I will continue to use the use of that term as long as it means we have to surrender to the EU's terms.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Traitors is a bit strong.

Liars, cheats, charlatans, con-artists, fakes, frauds, turncoats, deceivers ...,..but not traitors

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

£8bn bet against the British economy says otherwise.

Nobody says he can’t. Just needs Parliamentary approval.

And when we surrender the NHS to American health insurance companies?

---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:27 ----------

That’s no way to talk about the Liberal Democrat’s :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That is nothing more than speculation. No Government would scrap the NHS.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

A traitor is defined as a person who betrays someone or something, such as a friend, cause or principle.

Nothing wrong with the word in that context.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Spot on. "S____ Bill" is the new "£350m a week". They want that kind of language used to try and win over Brexit Party voters in the* November election.
*predicted

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I would describe the word as something where someone has committed treason against it's own country.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

This is not about definitions from the OED or Collins, Old Boy. It's the impact that this type of strong and emotive language has on some people when in common use by people in positions of power.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It’s on the shopping list for the free market capitalists. If that’s the price of a trade deal with the USA just watch us surrender.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yes, and the word has not been used in that context. People are being very picky about meanings when it is pretty obvious what the person meant.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It’s obvious Boris means it in exactly the nationalist context.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Except it is only strong when used in a certain context. If you choose to take it in its worse possible meaning, then you have misinterpreted the intent.

If I wanted to be cynical, I could say that the misinterpretation was deliberate.

So I won't.

:walk:

---------- Post added at 18:04 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

No, it is not. You have no evidence for this. Certainly, I have consistently used the word to indicate that those trying to overturn the referendum result are traitors to the electorate and to the principles of democracy.

Where has anyone in authority claimed they are traitors to their country? No-one.

---------- Post added at 18:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

Sinister describes Corbyn to a tee. And McDonnell.

There is nothing to fear about a no deal Brexit apart from fear itself.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

They’re certainly not making the clarification otherwise. Treason is being used with surrender, it’s symbolism of surrendering in wartime, to Europe, and ties in perfectly with the World War 2 imagery that runs through almost all Eurosceptic propaganda.

Surrender requires an entity to surrender to. The word has no virtually usage outside wartime settings. It’s all nationalist rhetoric and you know it. It ill befits you to pretend otherwise to get a rise out of others on the forum. Especially when you are convinced nothing with stop Boris anyway...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Humbug.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Let’s be honest though, Brexit was born out of English nationalism, the only difference is Johnson doesn’t even see the point pretending that it didn’t.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I don't recollect the word treason being used by the PM or any governnment minister, but again, there is more than one meaning to the word. One meaning is 'the action of betraying someone or something'. It is you that has decided that the word should be seen in the context of betraying one's country.

And before you mention 'treachery', that means 'betrayal of trust'.

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:50 ----------

Rubbish. Apart from the extremists, most Brexiteers see Brexit as liberating us from stifling EU laws, enabling us to make our own rules, and in particular forging much better trade deals that benefit this country, bringing more money in.

There are also many people at the lower income end who see free movement (which Labour now wants to maintain, apparantly) as driving down wages. Having our own immigration policy will allow us to let in the brightest skilled people from around the world to carry out tasks that need to be done at a higher level than we can provide from our own workforce. We will also bring in people with lower level skills such as nurses and carers where we don't have enough of our own people to fill the gaps.

But what is most exciting about Brexit is the opportunity that exists to trade with whomever we please on terms that suit us. The free tax ports announced by the PM are just the start of that transformation.

If that is what you mean by nationalism, fine. But it has nothing to do with unlawful discrimination, which is what you seem to be implying.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yet your average Brexit voter can’t name a single “stifling EU law”, name a rule they would change, or identify a realistic trade deal of greater value than being in the EU.

Perceiving freedom of movement to drive down wages and not unrestricted capitalism is their problem. Why doesn’t the Government raise the minimum wage? Do you support raising the minimum wage?

I made no such claim, your accusation there is preposterous, you are clutching at the very extreme of a very thin straw with that one.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Farage announces he is to stand at the next general election... may our country survive!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

well he all ready failed 7 times so he wont be too surprised to make it 8

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It will depend on what constituency he decides to fight in.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

he thought he had win in the bag last time Den and remember he is a very divisive figure

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Indeed like Johnson and Corbyn he is a very polarising figure.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Brexit Party is a much better funded and so far organised outfit than UKIP. He'll probably win a seat this time, especially since it'll be carefully selected.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

exactly Den

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

And one of those is PM and the other is a party leader tipped as an interim PM, so polarising can equal votes.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I see IDS is continuing the Cummins designed narrative for weak minded:

Iain Duncan Smith: 'Extremists blocking Brexit'

Also, saw this brilliant Brexit analogy:

Perfect ..

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's a crime against beer.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The analogy or the beer? :)

---------- Post added at 19:32 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

Just to be very clear here: the term "narrative for weak minded" would never apply to any Forum members. It applies to those in this country who slavishly listen to biased media outlets and refuse to apply their own critical thinking to the situation.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Farage asks for a pint. The barman draws it & throws it into his face. 'Why did you do that?' 'You asked for a pint, but you didn't say how you wanted it delivered.' Farage: ‘I'll have a pint in a pint glass.' 'No. You can't ask again.' 'Why not?' 'Democracy.'

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I have an issuing with "drawing a pint". Pulling a pint, serving a pint or even the craft beer term of pouring a pint all quench the thirst. A picture does not work in quite the same way for me. :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Correct - it's all about the branding, the wording and PR.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The new plan. A hard border with physical infrastructure just far enough away to avoid the sniper. :sniper:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Maps of the borders

a) 10 mile border zone (and this is just on the NI side)
b) political inclination in those areas.

If it’s 10 miles from the border, it’s still a border post - it’s the function and purpose of the posts that count, not the location.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The pole dancer isn’t going away is she.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

20 years should just about do it, I think.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The trade deal should only take 2-3 years to sort out (once the Conservatives get the working majority they need).

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

How many years till that happens?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Despite what the polls are saying my money is on a hung parliament.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It took three years from negotiations completing to the Canada trade deal coming into effect. Plus Canada actually wanted a trade deal with the EU, it’s debatable whether a Conservative government actually wants one - it means EU standards, state aid rules, coming back into play.

Anyway the EU are saying this isn’t true.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

So Canada follows the EU state aid rules?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

By "into play" I meant into negotiations. For a 2-3 year negotiation it'd almost certainly be a customs union type arrangement.

That said the Conservatives would probably concede state aid anyway, the state will be rolled back so far there will be no 'aid' available.

Anyway, the EU says the backstop stays. Which makes sense - there's nothing more important in Europe, on the mainland or the islands, than the integrity of the Single Market.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

If Canada is in Europe then, yes. If it's not, no.
Geography matters in trade.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

You’ll have to do a bit better than that.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

exactly wasn't tories 24 points ahead at last election and how did that turn out

plus next election got worse choice of leaders ever

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Farewell frictionless trade in Ireland as another promise ditched
https://www.ft.com/content/488cd226-...3-db5a370481bc

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Indeed the worse choice in my lifetime of that there is no doubt.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Strange to hear the Conservative Party Chairman on the news this morning stating (without explicitly saying so) that they intend to break the law, by leaving on the 31st of October without a deal if the EU doesn’t accept the "extended border".

Also, last night, No 10 insisted if the EU did not engage with the UK's offer there would be no further negotiations until after it had left on 31 October.

Party of law and order?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Indeed l always thought that they were the party of law and order as they were a party that was very much representative of a broad church.

They are neither of them now as their language is increasingly sounding more Trumpian like by the day.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

You are obviously confused on the law and what the Benn Act requires. If there is no deal then As long as he “seeks” an extension by writing a letter “in the form” of the one appendixed then he has complied. The Benn Act says nothing about leaving without a deal.

**

Indeed the Benn act is just an amendment to the withdrawal act, which again says we will leave the EU, not dependent upon achieving a deal. So leaving without a deal is totally lawful

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris seems to have gone down well at the conference, and Arlene Foster is inclined now to support the PM's compromise on the Northern Ireland 'two borders' proposal. Looks like we are half way there towards a deal.

That will disappoint the Opposition! :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Good luck with that one... ;)

Anyhoo, Boris just quoted someone in his speech, who, six years ago, was anti wind power...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Theresa May was numerically 90% of the way to a deal. The current proposal essentially puts a gun to the head of the EU saying we will blow a hole wide open in the Single Market in 2025.

No reason for them to concede this.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

cant wait for your rant when we still in EU in November ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The eternal pessimist!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

realist OB realist

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yep. Been here before with March 29.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Strange you said the same thing when we were supposed to come out on the 29th March.;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Rumours that if BJ doesn't write the letter to the EU, that it could be done either by the speaker or the Supreme Court in his name.

Instead of all these shenanigans why not just call a vote of No Confidence and get a General Election done.

Parliament has well and truly disappeared up it's own bumhole.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

you know fine well as everyone else parliament not gonna fall for Johnson's no deal trap as he know it only way he can get a no deal

leavers crying again because parliament proved it was sovereign all the time when they said it had none

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I'm of the opinion that no matter what Boris does or doesn't do, the 'remain' camp (if I'm allowed to call it that) will always have a large group of rich* legally minded folk who can immediately pull another rabbit hole from the magic hat.


* crowd funding included

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I repeated what Theresa May had promised. This time, it's real.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

we see what you say in November OB

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

November will be the month where according to the latest analysis there is a 80% chance of a General Election.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

yes almost certain they be one in November Den parliament wont fall for Johnson's trap so making sure no deal is off till after a election

cant see anything but another hung parliament myself

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

And the poor Leavers, only have

Arron Banks*
Crispin Odey*
Jeremy Hosking*
Peter Hargreaves*
Robert Edmiston*
Lord Bamford (gave 673k)

and not forget JRM (worth £55 million)


*contributed £15 million in the 5 months leading up to the referendum

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

This is the scenario which is most likely.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I'm not a Leaver, I'm a democrat.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No idea mate, haven't seen any of those rush to the Supreme court (or lesser) to block a proposal from *insert name here* about staying in :p:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

so am I and except the law that the democratically elected sovereign parliament made

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Why doesn't Boris extend then call an election? Works both ways.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No 10 publishes Brexit plan for alternative to backstop.

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