Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35988918)

The paper ballots were supposed to stop people looking over their shoulders in the lobbies and voting tactically. If they were actually still all sitting there with their papers poring over the options and trying to second guess each other then that’s actually worse in my view. We are at a point of national crisis, Parliament had the chance to draw a line under it, but instead they decided to play political games. Disgraceful.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35988906)

They're still counting the indicative votes. The expectation is no majority for any option but they want/hope for clear leaders to eliminate some and vote again next week.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35988866)

What if the people can't make a decision?

What margin of victory would be seen as acceptable.

What if it was

17,000,001 Remain

and

17,000,000 Leave

Do we Remain, all's fair, accept the result and bugger off.

and vice versa, Leave vote confirmed beyond question?

This is why a second referendum would be an absolute disaster. It has be sorted out now.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35988924)

I'll never understand why the ERG didn't go for May's Deal, especially the 2nd time when it was clear what was happening. I don't know what they thought would happen but after the deal failed they were reportedly cheering and humming the Great Escape.

Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35988926)

Makes me laugh how they take a chunk out of May but couldn't even pull a deal off themselves.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35988931)

In her defence she’s came back with the best deal. The other options are no deal or some measure of BRINO.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35988933)

So what is your definition of BRINO(Brexit in name only), that isn't in the withdrawal agreement?

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35988920)

Well yeah but that is absolutely what they did and what we expected them to do. The concept of voting again next week with the most popular options remaining was already priced into the decision making.

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35988928)

Stockpiling it is then..

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35988946)

5 months ahead of you on that ;)

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35988947)

You will be able to open a shop in a minute.;)

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35988935)

The WA is part one of a two step process. The next part shaping the future relationship which could be BRINO but could not.

Commitments to the single market and the customs union are already binding the final outcome to be BRINO.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35988949)

The WA is effectively BRINO, and that is the ONLY deal that she has come up with. So the current "deal" IS BRINO.

In it there's an awful lot of this sort of thing, "unless so authorised by the Union".

Then there is the bit about the backstop:-
And that involves the UK being forced to remain in a customs union. Why would the EU agree to anything, when they get so much by not agreeing to anything? Especially as the attempted coup by the Remain side hasn't finished yet. What idiot allowed the "unless and until" bit, when that is possibly the biggest factor in the WA not being agreed.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35988951)

The thing that gets me is how you can have a protocol that you cannot ever unilaterally terminate in a temporary agreement! The backstop should end when the withdrawal agreement ends unless there is a separate agreement to the contrary.

Only the EU could come up with something so perverse. I'm not even so sure it could be enforced once the withdrawal agreement expires- once ended, where is the legal authority for the backstop?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35988825)

What is a hard Brexiteer?

I am sick of these unjustly qualifying terms being used. There is no such thing. You want to Remain, you are not a hard Remainer. A person who wants to leave is not a hard leaver.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35988818)

I’m not here to defend Mogg or anyone in particular. As it happens I think Mogg is being a little revisionist of his own position. I’m just trying to ensure the discussion is a little closer to the totality of what people have said, rather than obsessing over selective one-liners that validate our existing viewpoints.

Acquis communautaire isn’t just fancy French for the sake of it. It is one of the key principles of the European Union and its existence is the reason for one of the main principled objections to UK membership. The Acquis is the body of EU law, but it is also the principle that once an area of national competence has become part of the body of EU law, it remains there permanently, and EU membership mandates full compliance with it.

As a third party, the UK can form treaties with the EU (or any other state, or supra-national institution) that allow cooperation on issues where it is in the mutual interest of the UK and whoever else. That means we may operate in line with the Acquis in some things, but crucially because we are not members of the EU we are not bound by all of it.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35988956)

Here you go. A Hard Brexiter is one who supports a Hard Brexit - FullFact definition:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35988951)

The thing that gets me is how you can have a protocol that you cannot ever unilaterally terminate in a temporary agreement! The backstop should end when the withdrawal agreement ends unless there is a separate agreement to the contrary.

Only the EU could come up with something so perverse. I'm not even so sure it could be enforced once the withdrawal agreement expires- once ended, where is the legal authority for the backstop?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35988963)

Here you go nothing - No such thing as a Hard Brexit.

You want to leave the EU you are not a Hard Brexiteer - you are just a Brexiteer.

End of discussion. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35988964)

We agreed to it.
---------- Post added at 11:34 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

Can you advise on terminology to use to create a distinction between those that favour leaving under the May deal with those who want no deal? And who favour a customs union. It’s three different things they Brexiteers can’t even agree upon.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35988966)

Who is this "we".

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35988966)

Who is this "we".

Perhaps the Remain supporters should set out what a customs union truly entails, if they're going keep going on about it.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35988970)

Here’s some interesting data for those inclined to swallow Chukka’s spin that there is movement towards a referendum or a customs union. The voting breakdown shows the extent to which last nights indicative votes split along party lines and really don’t betray movement at all.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1553775635

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35988969)

Government wants to bring back MV3 tomorrow. Do MPs grow up and accept this is what it is?

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35988972)

if it does it will be defeated again that's if speaker allows it

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35988973)

Better get stockpiling then before all the pot noodles and garlic have gone.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35988969)

Government wants to bring back MV3 tomorrow. Do MPs grow up and accept this is what it is?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35988929)

May's be trying for years. They've only had a few days.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35988970)

Here’s some interesting data for those inclined to swallow Chukka’s spin that there is movement towards a referendum or a customs union. The voting breakdown shows the extent to which last nights indicative votes split along party lines and really don’t betray movement at all.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35988976)

they've been talking about all these options for the same amount of time.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35988982)

A delay of a delay. Remainers just have to push past 22 May then we are into 9 month extension teritory. From there a referendum is inevitable.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35988984)

Will only get past April 12th, if the EU27 (all of them) agree to it, and on the radio this morning a Belgian MEP advised that is not in anyway a given.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35988986)

Seems to me that the EU are so scared that we may possibly leave with no deal, they're willing to keep extending the default date . . .


. . . if only that worked for tax returns eh :D

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35988987)

There is diddly squat chance of a 2nd referendum...

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35988990)

I've been musing on the future, and think a hung parliament would be the choice of many

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35988991)

Indy

It’s like Game of Thrones, but they’re all Joffrey...

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35988985)

Nor was March 29th. They’re as complicit in this game as our own MPs. They facilitate the pretence that something else is happening than what is obvious to me. We aren’t leaving unless leave wins a 2nd referendum.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35988987)

There is diddly squat chance of a 2nd referendum...

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35988996)

I wouldn’t bet against that being the case.

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------



I disagree, if April 12th and May 22nd come and go, and if we end up in a long extension then I would put a 2nd referendum as an almost certainty.

Originally Posted by nodrogd (Post 35989000)

If May 22 comes & goes we will also have to elect MEPs. That’s going to be interesting. If the number of UKIP/Brexit Party MEPs goes up as a result, those wanting a second referendum are going to get very nervous. Not to mention what possible chaos a larger majority of these MEPs will cause in Brussels.

Originally Posted by nodrogd (Post 35989000)

If May 22 comes & goes we will also have to elect MEPs. That’s going to be interesting. If the number of UKIP/Brexit Party MEPs goes up as a result, those wanting a second referendum are going to get very nervous. Not to mention what possible chaos a larger majority of these MEPs will cause in Brussels.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35989006)

Seems the main Brexiteers (Johnson/Mogg) are now more interested in the Tory leadership than Brexit....
Shallow predictable people...
Respect to those Brexiteers that have stuck to their principles, even if I disagree with them.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989011)

People keep blaming the Brexit side. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that they are. They've only in the past few weeks had any opportunity to block anything, so who has been blocking things for the past 2 years?

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35989007)

Mogg isn't interested in the leadership, rumour is he is running Johnson's campaign.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35989012)

The Conservative Party?

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------



Is Mogg not a Roman Catholic? That’s a constitutional crisis in waiting.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35989009)

https://www.facebook.com/16018652267...923441?sfns=mo

The EU isn’t as unified as it makes out, ok this is one is a MEP in the Parliament not a leader in the Council.

But as this whole sorry mess goes further South, you can expect more of this as other states face up to the impact of buggering about with this.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35989014)

You’re right, he should have kept it hidden like Blair did.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989011)

People keep blaming the Brexit side. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that they are. They've only in the past few weeks had any opportunity to block anything, so who has been blocking things for the past 2 years?

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35989015)

The EU just wants it cover with but not to be the one who pushes the button on no deal.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989018)

Not sure that the EU wants a "no deal" as it also hurts them. As usual the EU(ie Germany and France) want it on their terms.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989018)

Not sure that the EU wants a "no deal" as it also hurts them. As usual the EU(ie Germany and France) want it on their terms.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35989024)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0190718_en.pdf

A truly historic piece of legislation passed in no time at all. In addition the exception is 12th April based on a set of circumstances prescribed in regulations. The default is now 22nd May. Parliament will not get to vote on that extension.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35989004)

The Brexit Party and also a UKip Party could end up splitting the leave vote and reducing their MEP numbers.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35989025)

Remember when you were told that it would take weeks to pass such legislation. :D

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35989029)

Well it will be interesting come the next GE just who gets culled and who stays.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35989003)

The People’s Vote campaign will be out in force encouraging a pro-EU vote. I think after so many signatures and the march few consider the anti-EU vote to be stronger than the pro-EU vote. You are correct, it’ll be interesting, and the final nail in the coffin of Brexit. 77 people walking down the coast will not sway it.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35989037)

I like that, I like it a lot :D

It's probably that sort of condescending attitude that kicked it all off to start with . .

#neverlearndothey

:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989041)

looks like another fraught day in parliament

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35989035)

l predict it will be a bloodbath..

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35989047)

l never meant it in that way Maggy but l will phrase it another way in future.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989039)

The legendary superiority of the losers :tu:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35989009)

https://www.facebook.com/16018652267...923441?sfns=mo

The EU isn’t as unified as it makes out, ok this is one is a MEP in the Parliament not a leader in the Council.

But as this whole sorry mess goes further South, you can expect more of this as other states face up to the impact of buggering about with this.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989039)

The legendary superiority of the losers :tu:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35989055)

How's being a winner working out for ya, could be the new brexit slogan, we're all losers now

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989057)

Financially i'm doing well out of it , thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35989039)

The legendary superiority of the losers :tu:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35989058)

Now this would be the best Brexit slogan ever! Thank you for this.

Everytime you see Mogg and Johnson in the press, on the TV, etc. just put this line under their picture :)

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35989058)

Now this would be the best Brexit slogan ever! Thank you for this.

Everytime you see Mogg and Johnson in the press, on the TV, etc. just put this line under their picture :)

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35989062)

Meanwhile nobody in the Canary Islands cares, no mention in the news. Quite rightly more concerned about climate change....

Nice front page from the Standard.
https://mobile.twitter.com/George_Os...290368/photo/1

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35989047)

l never meant it in that way Maggy but l will phrase it another way in future.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35989059)

Sadly, we all became losers when we yielded to the EU and ERG by invoking Article 50 without a plan!

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35989067)

But that's not their fault, apparently no pressure was exerted to trigger article 50 without a plan, leave campaigned to have a plan before triggering and despite all the crappy articles he bored us with demanding it's triggering asap Daniel Hannan is now saying the exact opposite, that he never said that at all, we really do get the politicians we deserve as every time they get away with it

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35989069)

You mean like this guy did?

https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corby...e-invoked-now/

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35989069)

You mean like this guy did?

https://labourlist.org/2016/06/corby...e-invoked-now/

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35989077)

MPs voting on withdrawal agreement

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35989067)

But that's not their fault, apparently no pressure was exerted to trigger article 50 without a plan, leave campaigned to have a plan before triggering and despite all the crappy articles he bored us with demanding it's triggering asap Daniel Hannan is now saying the exact opposite, that he never said that at all, we really do get the politicians we deserve as every time they get away with it