Re: Brexit discussion
 

Politicians do that all the time. The leave campaign although run by politicians of different affiliations were not in power, never will be in power and as such didn't nor will have control of any money saved by brexit.

Any fool should be able to see that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes politicians do that all the time be it from whatever side of the divide they are on but if one is in power and holds the purse strings and fail to back up their pledges , promises or whatever one wants to call it then they have no excuses when they subsequently get punished at the ballot box.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The leave campaign were not in power. Cameron and his cronies were So the government did not pledge or promise anything about what would happen to the savings of EU membership.

What part of that can you not understand?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l understand everything but alas some only want to understand the bits that suit them when it is suitable and convenient to them...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I do wonder how many times the side of the Red Bus has to come in to this topic?

I mean, it's like, everyone is to believe the remain side never told any porkies or never distorted the truth, to buy more votes.

Which is utter nonsense because they did!

Every time the Red bus issue is brought up, it's very much sanctimonious, one sided BS from some of the Remain side, not all, but some!

Neither campaign holds the moral high ground here. I am prepared to accept this and I have said this every time, even though my side won.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As many times as other topics one suspects.

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

Both as bad as each other IMO and one should be ashamed that both sides told so many porkies to the electorate and are still doing that now sadly.

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Absolutely.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

And the same sentiments can also be applied to some of the Brexit side as well Mick unless you don't think so?..

---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:54 ----------

Absolutely so there needs to be give and take IMO if we are ever going to get a reasonable Brexit deal that suit all in this country and not just certain groups.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Notice it says 'Let's spend'. Most of us accept that this was a suggestion, not a promise. The campaigners were cross party and therefore they were not in a position to make promises anyway.

As for the amount, we have been over and over this. It is the gross figure.

Let's give it a rest now, shall we? That's a suggestion, by the way, not a promise!:banghead:

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:28 ----------

Will you tell Mr Barnier that?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Hence why I finished my last post with neither side having the moral high ground.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Both sides need to know that as it takes two sides to tango and two sides to come to a agreement unless you think otherwise?.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, I don't see Barnier dancing.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Take it this was a suggestion as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIYq5xMW98I

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Unfortunately if recruitment maintains the current trend it's staff that will be thinned out, not patients.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes, what do you think it was?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That would at least cut down on costs. They also need to become efficient, and that way they could do more with less.

There is certainly a problem with a shortage of doctors and nurses and the government has measures in place to address that.

But we need fewer managers and assorted bereaucrats, not more.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Given the NHS is utterly dependent on a migrant workforce, and they are leaving in droves since the vote, how exactly has Brexit helped ?

Do more with less? You sound a bit like a management consultant beaureaucrat that you want to get rid of. Get rid of all the pen pushers, then nurses and drs have to do the pen pushing instead of treating patients.

The govt. have certainly 'worked on this' by getting rid of bursaries for nurses making the job even less attractive, if possible. They certainly do have an agenda to run down the NHS so Brexit is helping with that at least.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, you are certainly doing an excellent job of peddling these Labour myths.

Have you actually noticed any difference that directly results from all those Primary Care Trusts that were abolished? Of course not, they were an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy.

I had to laugh at your reference to pen pushers! They are so last century. All modern employers employ keyboard pressers these days, and believe me, they are a lot more efficient. Next thing will be that you will be complaining about the cost of carbon paper. :p:

If you stopped picking at issues such as bursaries and concentrated on the number of doctors and nurses being trained now compared with when your beloved Labour party was in power, you would start to see the bigger picture.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The bigger (and actual) picture OB is long waiting times increasing 557% in A & E.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard

If anybody thinks Brexit is the answer to the NHS's problems they are very mistaken, it just adds to them greatly.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, it should cut down immigration, which is a principal reason why waiting times have increased.

The other one is that the baby boomers are getting old.

Nothing to do with the management of the NHS.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Who are you going to blame OB? when many are already going back to their own countries and more will follow as you cannot blame them anymore for this countries increasing ills.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No-one can help Mr K. Bless him, he is still happily sourcing the crappy remoaner gutter rag, theguardian, that he thinks people like you or I are going to be hoodwinked and read the BS that's printed in it. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Is there much evidence that immigration is a 'principal reason' waiting times have increased?

Considering that immigrants tend to be healthier and younger it doesn't have to follow that they have. Even with the relatively high amount of immigration we've had these immigrants would probably need to be less healthy than the existing population to have a significant impact.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What you mean that campaigning publication that likes to slag off the rich for avoiding tax but isn't so different. :shrug:

https://order-order.com/2016/04/04/m...fshore-havens/

---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:24 ----------

Are you suggesting that an extra 350,000 people in the UK every year isn't going to significantly impact adversely on NHS waiting times? Has there been extra funding to cope with all that? It doesn't much matter whether it's migrants or not but the fact is that most of the UK's rapid population growth over the last decade and more has been due to the migration which New Labour vastly underestimated and higher birth rates within immigrant communities.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As I said migration to the UK, especially that from Eastern Europe, tends to be younger and fitter whereas the biggest burdens on the NHS are from the elderly and those with chronic conditions. It makes sense that an increase in population relates to an increase in demand only if that population uses the service equally but instead it's very demographic dependent.

I am not saying it's had no impact, although with the proportion of EU nurses and social workers maybe it's even a positive one, but I am not sure it's one of the 'principal' causes of the rise in waiting times.

Everyone goes on and on about immigration without quantifying the impact it's really had on the NHS but you look at something like diabetes and that's had a dramatic impact: https://www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/dia...icted-to-rise/

10% of the NHS budget, 10%!, relatives only to diabetes. How likely is it immigration comes anywhere near that figure?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This should put the cat amongst the pigeons.

Business Growth hits 6 month high in London

http://www.cityam.com/275573/busines...th-high-london

Waits for the inevitable responses from the Remain side: “But we not left yet.”

Remembering when everything was to collapse if leave won. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

10 month high in the north east of England - good news. Not so great for Northern Ireland but hopefully once border issues are sorted, it should bounce back.

Here's the full data for all regions - https://www.markiteconomics.com/Surv...e4b8c6f67afda6

I am looking forward to some professional analysis of the figures but here are my amateur thoughts on the rise;

• Exports are still being boosted by a low GBP
• Economic indicators and confidence in our main export markets are high (Eurozones PMI is higher than the UK though interestingly, the UK is lower)
• The indication that interest rates are unlikely to go up by much more has allowed slack in inflation - price rises to counteract the cost of imports due to lower GBP are allowable for now
• Employment is up - more customers

Re: Brexit discussion
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...8&d=1510569768
:D


Attachment 27128

Re: Brexit discussion
 

'Emergency budgets' within days and all that guff...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think you have missed the point, Damien. I don't know how fit these people are, but given the sheer number of them piling into the UK, there is an obvious impact on our public services, particularly the NHS, not to mention housing, schools, etc.

And before there are any rants, it is not a race or nationality issue. It is a capacity issue. We are not a big country, and we have over-reached our capacity. If the bus you are waiting for turns up but it's full, you would expect to be turned away, wouldn't you?

When we regain control of our affairs, we will be able to pick and choose who we take in, and I dare say that the NHS would be an obvious example of where skills from overseas (not just Europe) would be welcome.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:tu:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well, Den, we are looking at why there is such pressure on the NHS, and I am saying that you cannot have a huge influx in your population without there being a consequence for the NHS, and indeed all public services.

If a large number of EU citizens return to Europe, that will reduce pressure on the NHS.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No I got the point fine. I was asking if there was much evidence of immigration being one of the principal causes of the rise in waiting times. If it's so obvious it should be easy to quantify, especially given the large impact it's meant to be having.

How fit and healthy immigrants are is important to the question because the NHS is not used equally across demographics.

Not about waiting times this article suggests immigrants from the EU are a small cost compared to other factors and they might even make a net contribution: https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/res...ure-on-the-nhs

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/15.png

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l somehow doubt it very much..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You haven't got the point that is being made, with all due respect. You cannot have all those people coming in without consequences for the NHS, even if they do tend to be fitter than the Brits!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Public services have had severe cuts because of Austerity not because of how many immigrants one has in a country as we don't have that many down here and yet public services and our local health services have had to face severe cuts to their finances these past few years with sign of it ending due to Austerity cuts..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So, in your opinion, you can take in millions of people and it does not affect our ability to provide services for them?

Can I have some of what you're on? :p:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l am not denying that that would have some effect but the effects of Austerity have had a much greater effect unless you are in denial of that.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

..Well, Den, have a guess why austerity measures are necessary.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

shot sir :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Time to bring out this study again - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit05.pdf

From the conclusions;

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It beggars belief that these academics can't make a connection between an increased population and an increased demand for services.

It certainly doesn't explain why my doctor's surgery scarcely has a white face in there any more. All the names coming up on the board tend to be foreign these days. It certainly wasn't like that a decade ago.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l know exactly why as you was in denial of that earlier in blaming all our ills on immigrants coming to this country when that is a small part of the much greater ills affecting this country.

l am not enamoured by either party as they have both been pretty disastrous for this country IMO and perhaps if you took your political colours off for once you might start to realise that OB.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's the interpretation by the LSE group - EU migration has little effect on public services, wage growth an unemployment and are small net contributors to the coffers unlike UK citizens.

You mention no white people in your GP surgery. Is that more due to non-EU immigration which we have always been able to control?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Den, I am not against immigrants coming here. I'm just saying that we have more people coming in than going out. The impact of that is obvious.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41975277

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I can see Parliament attempting to amend it but they won't reject it unless there is an extension, exiting with no deal would be a disaster.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If they come up with the wrong answer maybe we can make them vote again...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I still see people protesting outside parliment to try and stop Brexit (despite the fact it's law and we are 100% leaving).

Question is if these are claiming JSA (or whatever its called now), should they be severly sanctioned.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Welcome to Brexit Britain .... :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's not quite 100%, there's a lot of hurdles yet, and as the guy who wrote Article 50 has said, we can opt out or stop at any time. A lot can change politically and economically in a year.

As for job seekers, you're making a lot of assumptions there ! Do you want to ban peaceful protests ?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't worry Mr. K were leaving!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What ? we were leaving and have now changed our minds? :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

My bad, we're leaving. Feel better now?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well do close the door after you, there's a terrible draught ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I thought you'd be doing that as you set off across the channel to your beloved EU.:D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It will not be the best option, but it would be far from a diaster! The rest of the world seems to be expanding economically rather better than the EU.

And if it's only a bad deal that we are being offered, the absolutely right thing to do will be to walk away.

---------- Post added at 19:39 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

Not in a million years!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I wouldn't have thought he did, what would be the point of taking back control of our democracy if the first thing we do is ban people's right to protest against it, besides which even if they all were on jsa why should they be sanctioned, I never realised things were so strict now you had to be job hunting at home every second of every day

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes it's revealing to see how some people who reckon they're all for democracy don't mind overturning it to get their way. Nothing more needs to be said about them really.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Where did you read that BS ?

A former colleague of mine had to stop work, resigned and had to look after her daughter for some time.

When she was ready to start work again, was on JSA. She had fortnightly interviews at Job centre, they simply ask, what jobs you like and have applied for, you respond, by saying applied for, A, B, C, which she did, most of the jobs she applied for, never heard back from them, she told DWP in the interview she not heard back, they say fine, see you in a fortnight.

They do not check whether what your saying is true, they may say, after a while of constant job rejection, after x amount of applications to improve on a job skill, they did this to my former colleague, my colleague said no, the course was too far, she was not sanctioned for not doing it.

As far as JSA goes, as long as you seem to be actively looking for work, attend the fortnightly interviews with DWP, they leave you alone.

A lot play the system still. It used to be one of my job roles, doing recruitment for new staff and many applications, you invite the person to interview and they never show up to it and I just knew it was from a JSA applicant, many application forms just had a name and address on them, many were so blank and job history info missing, meaning they know they are going to be rejected at this hurdle, again these from JSA applicants who were just playing the system, to keep getting the money.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Hmmm, the bit you 'snipped' out of the Bloomberg article was:-
and he also said:-

Just so we get the full picture ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

He is totally incorrect on the ‘dumbest’ thing. I don’t want our country part of a corrupt United States of Europe.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Agreed. If the EU was different I'd feel different but it isn't and I don't.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Personally, I would be much more at ease with a federal Europe, where politicians rather than Eurocrats were in control . That would be democratic, whereas the EU is not.

Can you imagine the UK being governed by Civil Servants? Of course not!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:confused: you been drinking or something, what bs

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I know Mick, you'd rather we were a third rate state in Trump's wonderful USA ! :rolleyes:

Anyway, back to our wonderful elected representatives who seem to be having a slight disagreement about Brexit...
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/st...397522438?s=17
I've always liked Ken Clarke, shame he's a Tory, wonder if he still wears those nice Hush Puppies ? ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No it is not BS at all, they are facts. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Virtually any incarnation of the EU would be better than what we currently have - a major trading block being steered into chaos by the likes of Juncker who only have eyes for more of the same dogma which has got Europe where it is...

It's as sad as it is pathetic.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Opinions, not facts. And opinions are always interesting. ;)
A case study is interesting... but not representative.

Fat cat Brexiter John Redwood tells investors to withdraw their investments from the UK.
Not surprised, he's pulled the wool over people's eyes but I guess he has to be honest in his advice to investors.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b0e37d2f3833c4

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Perhaps it's me that's drunk, I ask a perfectly legitimate question about the right of the assumed unemployed to peaceful protest in response to someone demanding they be sanctioned and then whether the system is now so draconian toward the jobless that they must spend every moment at home job hunting, still don't see the bs

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Just to avoid the clear misunderstanding that has occurred, here is the proper order of posts:

then

followed by:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

And just to be clear, I don’t think anybody deserves to be sanctioned for carrying out a Democratic right to protest.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Pesky European Commission doing its best to defend British jobs against the might of the US;)
https://www.ft.com/content/3f9b3daa-...8-7a9fb7d6163e

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Think you must have that wrong Andrew ! The EU is evil & corrupt, as you well know... :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I was wondering why Mr K was so quiet today.

Record numbers of EU workers in UK since Brexit

Number of EU workers in UK rises by 112,000 since Brexit vote

EU citizens: Record numbers working in UK - official figures

I thought they were supposed to be leaving in droves?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes the Brexit vote and Trump's election were supposed to be resulting in a mass exodus from the UK and US weren't they.

Anyway, I'm sure those who hate the prospect of staying in the UK post Brexit will be busily arranging their affairs so they can migrate to the EU Utopia before it's too late. I'm just surprised they haven't already done it but I seem to recall one left to go to Austria because it was such a friendly place. At a time when we were trying to control migration, they were 'welcoming' refugees with flowers and chocolates. Their welcome didn't last long though did it...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Post of the year surely?

As it wrecks havoc on the long standing narrative, that the EU workers are leaving and have left since vote.

So far this last week, business growth up in London and record numbers of EU migrants in work.

This is great news all round and should be so to Mr K, as he has been banging the ‘EU workers are leaving because of Brexit’ drum for some time.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

To be accurate Mick I said NHS EU workers (those that we most need) were leaving, which is unfortunately the case.

http://www.nationalhealthexecutive.c...ctive-to-staff

https://www.gponline.com/hundreds-gp...rticle/1450007

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Anyone would think some people want to scare the country into making the worst happen, then they can say they were right... :spin:

How many of the great and the good who predicted economic calamity and rampant extremism have left the UK and US for pastures new I wonder? :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think it's worse than that. There are those who appear to be actively working to make the worst come true to vindicate their misbeliefs, even if that means taking the country down with them.

In other jurisdictions they'd be in clink for undermining the state.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

lol, never mind post Brexit, enemies of ze state will probably face summary execution :rolleyes:

(wonder where this is all going ? Probably not in a direction that a lot of those that voted for Brexit wanted or foresaw)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:LOL:

Thankfully we live in the UK and not North Korea.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I said earlier in this thread that WHO (World Health Organisation) conducted a review in 2013, that said the whole planet is suffering a pandemic of nursing shortages. Millions of vacancies worldwide are being left unfilled, because people are not wanting to take up the nursing role, as more older nurses are retiring.

You keep banging on about EU nationals coming here to do nursing jobs, why aren't the millions of UK nationals taking up the job, why are they going in to other professions?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes, John Redwood has indeed been doing exactly this. But unlike those who don't wish job-seekers to exercise their democratic rights, I think he's entitled to his views.
John Redwood tells investors to withdraw money from UK and move it into the faster-growing EU states

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That's definitely the case. It's a very sad mentality, especially when many of these same people spend their lives telling us all how they respect democracy. I've just been listening to David Miliband telling those of us who voted for Brexit how stupid we were and how ashamed he is of the UK's decision. What a total hypocrite.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So?

Democracy doesn't mean you have to like the decision, think the decision was a good idea or work to overturn the decision so long as you do that via democratic means.

If Labour were to win the election would you think it was a wise choice to be proud of or would you think it's stupid and be ashamed of it? Many on here have criticised people who've voted Labour, how it that different?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Point missed. They really can dislike the decision as much as they like - spend the rest of their lives being bitter and twisted about it for all I care. What I object to is their constant attempts to undermine and overturn the process which was legitimately agreed upon and executed at the referendum. If Labour won the next election I'd be horrified but I wouldn't start claiming that people didn't really know what they were voting for and trying to challenge the result by claiming the process was flawed or whatever.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

But you criticised Miliband for criticising the decision. That's what I was referring too. People do claim people didn't know what they were voting for when voting Labour, saying they were tricked, same with the Yes campaign for Independence in Scotland.

As for the wider point I think people put too much faith in the idea that because the decision was taken democratically that the process would prove to be easier than it has been. The issue of the EU was not settled and put to bed in the referendum, it is probably more divisive than the issue has ever been, but it did set us on a course to leave which neither of the main parties has actually opposed.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If Labour won with JC, JM, DA and ET (No not ET the alien, Emily Thornberry), it would be an overnight disaster. This is not fear mongering, this is reality, the value of the pound would drop to record lows against the dollar.

As JC offloads billions of pounds, they do not have and distributes it equally among the population, watch as the already crumbling UK public services, fall completely, people no longer strive to improve themselves, they don't need to, they could sit on their arse and get the same as the next person, who studied for years, works a 60 hour week, but they will be taxed to death, to help pay for and maintain the equal distribution.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I've bookmarked this post as one day you might need reminding of the bit in bold ;).

Cheers

Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's ok, I will do that if there is actually power running and I am not starving to death, i.e Venezuela style hunger. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No I criticised him specifically for claiming we didn't know what we were voting for. He's entitled to disagree with the outcome but not to patronise all of us who voted to leave.

The EU is an exemplar for complexity, bureaucracy and over-complication - I don't know anyone who thought the process would a) be easy or b) be made easy by the EU who've always made it clear that they don't like their vision of the future and authority challenged.

---------- Post added at 14:38 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

Feel free to be disappointed then. ;)

If Labour win that'll be the least of your concerns and if they don't you'll have to put up with the Tories again. :)

---------- Post added at 14:42 ---------- Previous post was at 14:38 ----------

Yeah lol.

People like Corbyn spend their lives banging on about Cuba, Venezuela etc. yet have precious little to say about them now. Many of their supporters either don't seem to care about how wrong they were or just can't admit it because to do so would only highlight the fact.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Why? Do you not think that leaving the EU will bode well for our reliance on fuel/energy/food imports?

Cheers

Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Why do you think it won't ?

Either way, Socialism does not work. Surely you see this with Venezuela ?

This is exactly what JC represents and he is a good buddy of President Maduro, who is now running a dictatorship. You want this for the UK ?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More Original project Fear rears its head. ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Surely the world is full of examples of socialist paradises... :rofl:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Only my fears will be real, not fiction like yours will be. It's not project fear, when it will be reality, Corbyn refused to condemn Maduro, he bloody idealizes his regime for all things being absolutely equal.

It will be 100% socialism guaranteed with Corbyn as Prime Minister!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This will be the national anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs

Nice.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No I don't think it will (but was aware of the potential ups and downs when I voted).

I see Venezuela isn't working but I think even you will agree that to say "Socialism is Venezuela and Venezuela is Socialism" is a pretty blinkered view. There are many other 'socialist' countries :shocked:.

And as to what JC represents, I suppose because he's left wing it's inconceivable that he could change his stance - I mean who could imagine a PM who one day stands on one side of an argument then the next day.....

Anyway Mick, now I've answered your questions how about you answer the one I asked you?

Cheers


Dave

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I've answered such a question many times.

But to answer yours. I again, can say, we will bode well when we leave the EU. Because Europe is a declining market. Btw Londons is still growing, despite Brexit, despite all the claptrap saying it would not, straight after a leave vote.