Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i think we will need the right man in charge for that to happen ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

nah, just needs someone who won't lose sleep over the backlash from every other half wit politician and the frenzied media.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

sounds good i hope he gets the job ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Labour’s ideals are to spread the money of other people’s. In Labour’s world, you don’t have to strive to work hard, study to better yourself, because you will be given everything you need on a platter for free.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The problem with that is that when you've milked the rich for all it's worth, where will the money come from then?

I completely agree with the idea of a mixed economy to ensure that the less well off are provided for, but the Corbyn/McDonnell Marxist approach fails to recognise that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Once the money is gone, it is gone. Why are people not learning from the mistakes made by other countries? This approach has failed wherever it has been tried. All it does is to make everyone poor (apart from a small elite at the top).

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Until the bill arrives and then they scuttle off into opposition leaving others to pick up the pieces and cop all the flak for the tough choices which subsequently have to be made. There's nothing new about Corbyn or his version of Labour politics.

---------- Post added at 10:43 ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 ----------

Well they don't want us to ask that question do they and it's not just the rich. The bank of mum and dad is currently supporting a whole lot of younger people and at the same time often having to pay for their social care right down to a very minimal amount of assets. A valuable family home is an obvious and easy target but you can only take it once and after that, especially when you've forced down the property values upon which the BOMAD is reliant, there are no more such assets left to take from them and probably not their children. Who'll be paying for all that social care then? We're not talking millionaire celebrities here, just ordinary families who've struggled to own their own homes and once it's gone it's gone.

You're dead right about the small elite at the top - once they assume control you soon find out that their version of socialism applies very differently to the ordinary masses than it does to them and their privileged chums. No shortages, queues and strife for them, only the best. It's happened time and time again all around the world yet still some people deny the inevitable.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well we are all in it together George certainly wants Theresa kicked out that is for sure.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...sa-may-largely

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-a3686381.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Here's a test for you: what was the last interesting thing the George Osbourne said? The thing we noticed, that stood out, that took a stand and risked controversy in pursuit of a cause?

Here's one (I wouldn't say interesting but...).

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

He said plenty before that unless you have convenient memory loss and want to forget it..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/b...s-by-2015.html

https://www.investmentweek.co.uk/inv...esperate-govts

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...r-explanation/

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...y-tale-of-woe/

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/0...ooks-til-2026/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Saying he wanted the PM chopped up and in his freezer stood out.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If any ordinary Joe had said that, PC plod would have had them before the beak in an instant.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

True ! Haven't heard that term for a long time, guess many on here won't have heard it. Reminds me I must dust off some Billy Bunter stories :D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Or Just William.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Tories have got a history of turning on each other. They always destroy their own in the end, it's a natural process. It would make a great David Attenborough series; The Lifecycle of a Tory.:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's great to see Labour taking this sort of anti-semitism thing amongst their potential candidates so seriously:

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.u...ts_about_Jews/

I suppose it's because the party doesn't have problem with it... :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not good, but bigots seem to exist in all parties.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8020656.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sadly racism and prejudice will always exist no matter how much one tries as you can't educate a mind that does not want to be educated Mr K.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We're all told that the Tories are nasty, evil, racists but Labour are supposed to be better than all that aren't they? They'll always act decisively to root out this sort of thing just look at their record... :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

"prejudice" is completely in the eye of the beholder anyway.
Everyone has their own views which someone else calls "prejudiced" (or an "..ism").

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Political parties come out with cheap insincere lip service remarks saying they will root out these things but even when l am long dead l suspect nothing much will have changed sadly.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I agree and I'm just pointing it out for those who seem to feel Labour are paragons of virtue compared to their opponents. They're clearly not. ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

FromSeems like it's you that's got one eyed syndrome .....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's great that Labour are so committed to stamping out the avoidance of tax via such devices as offshore companies/trusts that they're suddenly thinking about moving out of the shiny offices they rent from one such...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09dwr7h

From 27 minutes into the interviews.



No hypocrisy evident there eh? :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The case of one eyed syndrome is confirmed.

I don't think Tory fan boys can preach on Tax evasion/avoidance, given the number of years they've been in power and allowed these loop holes to continue for the rich/famous/themselves. One rule for us, one rule for the plebs....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, Labour weren't exactly proactive on this during all the years they were in power. The Conservatives are at least working on this.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why have they waited 7 years??

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We all know of Labours failures when in power last but the onus has been on the Conservatives for the last seven years and thus so far l see considerable deteriorations rather then any improvements..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well look at the mess inherited by the new government in 2010 after Labour's 13 years in power. The Tories didn't have a majority like Labour enjoyed throughout their tenure, they had to form a coalition and it's only been since 2015 that we've had a Tory government in office so let's not blame them for everything that's happened since Labour got the boot.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why did Labour wait 13?

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:30 ----------

I think you underestimate the length of time it takes to fix a broken economy, old chap. Labour didn't have a clue.

And they still believe in the money tree. Even now. Will they never learn? You don't need to respond, we all know the answer to that.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Quite right. And now they are trying to manage very serious issues in a minority government, with Labour trying to trip them up every step of the way.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But one is not talking about the Labour party and its disasters as its the Conservatives who are in power and yet you seem to want to absolve them of any responsibilities for this countries current ills and their policy disasters which there are many..

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

Yep Labour did not have a clue but the Conservatives are just as hopeless IMO as we see in this current mess.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

Well the Conservatives seem to adopted that same policy of late unless you have convenient memory loss.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------

And if the roles were reversed they were not do exactly the same thing?.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not really but you do have to accept the scale of the financial mess that was inherited from Labour in 2010 which was unprecedented in our lifetimes. No matter what mistakes the Tories have made the country was in a far more perilous position in 2010 than it was when Blair and Labour took the helm in 1997. That's a fact and many of the decisions made by Brown and Blair are going to haunt this country for decades no matter who's in power.

FWIW I think the UK specifically and the world in general is in the most difficult position since WWII and it's about time our politicians recognised that and started working on achieving a concensus of opinion on how we steer ourselves out of the mire. It won't happen of course because power is what they all want and they'll happily scupper the other side simply to achieve it, without really thinking too much about the consequences of chaos.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The UK was moderately placed to deal with the banking crisis when it came. At some point the Conservatives should have to answer as to why our growth continues to be stagnant whilst even the bloody Eurozone is growing nicely. America went down the stimulus route after the crash and their economy has been doing far better than ours.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Although Brexit's effects are unknown and have caused a great set back in investment and an uplift in inflation, I would argue that the banking crisis of 2007/8 was the most difficult since WW II for many countries.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Time to shift my savings to an off shore account...:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Source

Many a true word spoken in jest?

Meanwhile in the really nasty party:

Source_2

That may have been a few years ago and she claims to regret those words but leopards rarely change their spots.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well, actually, we are. It is a bit rich that Labour are accusing the Conservatives of doing nothing even when they have already closed quite a few loopholes and are working to close the rest when Labour itself did nothing in all their years in power.. Do you really not see the irony, Den?

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

The fact that she said it in the first place says everything you need to know about her.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But we are not talking about the Labour party and their considerable mistakes in government as you cannot keep blaming them for all our current ills as we are talking about the last few years and the present as thus so far HMG are big on talk and stabbing each other in the back and short on any deliverance of any decent coherent policies for the whole of this country and not just the groups that are likely to vote for them.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Personally I think there's too much of this crap going on

5 years ago John says something to Fred, and now Alice finds it offensive :rolleyes:

Bill brushed his hand against Alans knee 7 years ago and now Alan complains about it :rolleyes:

An author writes a best seller back in 1964 and today the education authority condemns it :rolleyes:

Just stop with all the political PC point scoring and start working together to sort this damn country out, you're just making fools of yourselves

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm not sure that you are digesting my post. I said that Labour did nothing on this for 13 years. Why, then, are the Conservatives being pilloried for 'not doing anything' (sic) when they did nothing themselves?

Labour ignored the problem completely. Then when the Conservatives get in and start the job of tackling it, Labour accuse them of not doing enough.

Flaming hypocrites! :Peace:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Hypocrites apply to both sides of the political divide IMO.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not in this case.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Meanwhile over in that veritable Utopia the likes of Corbyn and Red Ken still like to cite as the way forward when it suits:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-41982069

Quelle surprise... :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What's this got to do with the Government and the Post Election Discussion? :notopic:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Jeremy Corbyn idolises the Venezuala socialist project, apparently. Look at his pronouncements and protests in that light.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Correct - it's not to difficult to grasp for most people is it, but some folks seem not to want Corbyn's nonsense to be scrutinised. I wonder why... :D

In the days when he was a marginalised loony lefty nobody who spent his time in parliament undermining his own party nobody much gave two hoots what he thought but he's leader of the opposition now and no self appointed moderator is going to stop these questions being asked of him or his dubious politics being exposed for what they are.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The opposition is fair-game in a thread about the Government, this is essentially the UK politics thread minus Brexit.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well people are pointing to a so-called mess in the Conservative Party, completely ignoring the fact that Corbyn can't get any talent into his Shadow Cabinet because no-one with any integrity can bring themselves to serve! So who's really in chaos at the moment?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Government's in chaos at the moment. If the Government falls apart and Labour is elected then it will be their chance to show the country what they're made of. But at the moment they have less pressure.
Both are totally divided over Europe but at least Corbyn believes in his party's policy of leaving the EU, an idea as useless as him. Theresa May just believes in the opportunity to be PM.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

what????? he's got Diane Abbott - tactical wordsmith and numerical genius

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes it takes a special kind of talented genius to double a citizens imprisonment with a few words, most Labour politicians are content with just making themselves look ridiculous, any brit in a foreign nick must be dreading bozos next speech, he could literally get them killed but hey it's just Boris being Boris :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Quite. Just have look at their front bench. Those people bemoaning the chaos we're seeing right now ought to be very careful what they wish for. If Corbyn's cronies were to be elected there'd be even more chaos and Sterling would plummet even further. Can anyone seriously imagine Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell running UK PLC? Their 'policy' on the EU is a joke which is why we rarely hear much about it from Corbyn. They bang on about City jobs being lost to the EU but their own plans for regulation, taxaton etc. would do far more damage to the sector they're trying to claim they care about when it suits them. :spin:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I notice that Labour's 'zero tolerance' of racism, sexism, bigotry etc. hasn't led Corbyn to take seriously what some of his colleagues have been saying and doing when they're not busily demanding resignations from the other side of the house:

https://order-order.com/2017/11/15/s...ded-dent-coad/

Does he even comment on this abuse or the fake Tory logo sketch of a matchstick man hanging in tree? And they like to call the other side 'nasty'...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

See you still have an IT issue and your browser is still stuck on that website. How very frustrating and boring for you :zzz:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Really?

Because this is exactly my thinking about you, when you source crap from the guardian. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ah well, I'll stick your favourite sources (the Express/ Mail/ Fox Fiction) in future Mick ! ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Would that be their offshore subsidised output or the holier than thou alternative they produce for consumption here? :D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Another Philip Hammond Gaffe, “There are no unemployed people in UK” he said this morning in a tv interview. :erm:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Like many politicians they are out of touch with the real reality's of life.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The whole cabinet is out of touch and out of competence. Time for them to do the decent thing. Corbyn's lot can't do any worse surely!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Given the official figures, he clearly doesn't believe that but yes it was a stupid, clumsy thing for anyone to say let alone someone at his level in government. Must try harder Phil...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes, they really can - a lot worse!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Too true. They can and have before. :D

Despite all their predictions of doom and gloom the UK is still growing. Just take a look at Corbyn's cabinet in waiting FGS! They're a bad joke.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Both as bad as each other if you take your blinkers off for once.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What blinkers? I think that's something you should look at yourself, Den! Corbyn and McDonnell are dangerous Marxists, something you and some others are conveniently overlooking. If they got in, we'd all know about it rather sooner than you think!

Don't forget that none of the real talent within the Parliamentary Labour Party trust him and won't even serve in his Cabinet. That should tell you all you need to know, but still you think he is a credible alternative.

The mind boggles how you cannot see these men for what they are.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Spot on Den, this country's been dealt a pile of jokers in both parties but it's no laughing matter! Who can forget the omnishambles budget? Or the foreign secretary who didn't read his emails and gave an excuse to Iran to increase a British citizen's sentence? Or the indecision around the next London airport? Others have covered Labour's failings with zeal so I won't duplicate their extensive efforts.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If you have read my previous posts you will have noticed l am no fan of either the government or the opposition unlike some who cannot see much further then their nose when it comes to political commenting on this forum be it from either side.

Also whatever party one supports on this forum be it Conservative , Labour or the tiddlywinks party they should be respected as its their personal voting decision based on what they think and thus one should not be insulted or mocked because of their political leanings IMO.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Labour bang on about lack of unity within HMG but their own party is in a state of chaos but this is all being conveniently overlooked by a lot of people right now. If we were ever unlucky enough to have this shambles in charge of UK PLC we'd soon see it all start to unravel and once again it'd be left to other to clear up the mess they leave behind. Sound familiar?...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

for someone who isn't a labour supporter you do a great job supporting their supporters ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Den's just being objective. Order-Order and the Express may be uncomfortable with such an approach but he's probably representative of lots of people.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

... and to think there are still people who who reckon Labour can't be any worse? :spin: :rofl:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i'll ask andrew what den thinks about that :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes sadly objectiveness and balance is in short supply currently one must say Andrew.:)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Maybe you can find out what their negotiation stance on the EU is because the last time I heard it was to accept a deal at any cost. Mind you they can't be worse than the Tories can they... :rofl:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

nice to see you back i don't like dealing with minions when your out ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's always the last resort of a dying govt. and it's fans to say the alternative would be worse (they may or may not be).

Smacks of 'we know we're crap, and haven't delivered and have no new ideas, so scaring the plebs is the best strategy'....... Think they'd have learnt from the last election that this tactic is less and less effective. People are feeling the effects of inflation, stagnant wages, collapsing public services and might feel they have little to lose.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

a bit like that project fear thing eh :shrug:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But, Den, you accused me of being blinkered, so aren't you doing just that?

I was pointing out to you that Corbyn and McDonnell are both Marxists. They admit that. Does this not disturb you at all?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As long as they aren't admirers of Stalin or Putin who cares?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

sane people tend to care ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

A lot disturbs me in this country be it the 2 Marxist of the opposition party but l am just as much disturbed by the utter chaotic HMG as they fight among themselves on a regular basis stabbing each other in the back when we are supposed to garnering a reasonable well thought out Brexit strategy which suits us all and not just certain sections of this country but alas the PM was more interested in political expediency to further her own political ends in calling a general election when that was the last thing this country needed and now look at the mess we are in now unless you think differently to the near two thirds who think the government handling of the Brexit negotiations thus so far has been nothing sort of shambolic as to put it frankly they could not organise a piss up in a brewery IMO.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So you would prefer a conflicted world that is against Putin, a consistent cold atmosphere where the potential for another cold war around the corner ?

How bizarre thinking.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Stalin was a mass murderer, idolising him is a massive red flag, and Putin is not a friend of the West. It's naive to think you can have a amicable relationship with his Government. He wants a divided West in turmoil.

At the moment people on here are relaxed on it but he doesn't like the right in America or countries. He'll back whatever causes the most chaos so come the next election you might suddenly find the Tories are the ones that suddenly have a lot of e-mails leaked, bad news spreading on Twitter etc.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It is not naive at all because, I never said to have a amicable relationship with them. We just need to stop blaming the Russians for everything, including election losses.

Other countries interfere in other countries elections.

Now we have the same crap over here about Brexit. I say it is complete bollocks. It was ok for Obama interfere and blackmail us... it was okay for our own government to spend £9 Million on Propaganda BS as to why we should stay in the EU.

But to continue and have the response of, Putin this, Putin that, it is a conflicted response, blame the Russians for meddling, blame the Russians because it's raining. so if we are that insistent on continuing to be pissed off with them, what we do about it?

Take them on ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If there's evidence that the Russians interfered in votes then we shouldn't just ignore it because their manipulation was on the side we were on or the side we were against.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I await with interest the number of votes cast by Russia.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sanctions, investigate anyone willingly cooperating with their interference and oppose their propaganda. We're not some poor little country powerless to defend our interests. What else would you have so do? Roll over because it's Russia?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i think they heavily supported the lib dems thats why they got the votes they did

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

To me, I get the impression that he's happy to think, roll over because the Russians backed "his side" - Brexit and Trump.
I sincerely hope I'm wrong. If correct, it's a flawed tactic as next time they could be supporting another side.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sanctions don't work, hasn't countless sanctions being applied proved that ?

We have no choice to roll over, unless you want a Nuclear war on your doorstep that would see the potential end of the World as we know it and as I said, Russia is not the only country who meddles in other countries elections. We need to stop blaming Russia because someones side lost an election/referendum.

Saw this posted elsewhere, sharing here:-

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's not about your vote Mick, it's about millions of votes. Social media and fake has some impact or it wouldn't be used.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You have a knack of getting the wrong impression, today is no different.

The Russians did not just back my side, there was postings on twitter in favor of remain, or did you choose to forget that little detail because it goes against your continuously, tedious little narrative ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It still won't change the result.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It is not millions of votes at all - complete bollocks, people have a mind you know they can make their own choices up, they don't need Russia to tell them how crap the EU is, they saw that for themselves and why they voted the way they did FFS! :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You've misunderstood my point and flown off a bit mate. Let me try and explain it another way.
You've stated why you voted one way or the other and then extrapolated that to millions of voters. One person is not a representative sample of the millions of people who voted.
What is more interesting is why you think we should not investigate Russian involvement in matters like the Brexit vote? I get why Alex Salmond may agree with you as he's being paid £1,000 an hour by RT. But why do you think, as Damien says, we should "roll over"?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm of the same POV. Does that help? I'm sure there are millions of others too.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sanctions aren’t a magic bullet but they do put internal pressure on governments. Putin is very powerful but Russian oligarchs have sway too and they’re not going to be best pleased with having their ability to operate restricted. The Russian economy is in no great state

Do you think they want nuclear war? Why are you assuming that they’ll start one? More to the point if we ‘have to roll over’ then where is your line? If they take over the rest of Ukraine do we roll over? If we have to roll over because they have nukes then they can do whatever they want.

It’s not about them single handily swinging elections. It’s about a constant low level operation to sow discord and distrust in the West. Using Twitter to amplify very minority opinions to make them seem louder than they are. Spreading rumours and fabricated stories so that people are unsure what is and what isn’t true. As well as the more traditional leaking of stories/information to damage those that might oppose their interests.

This isn’t new and it’s not just about Trump or Brexit. In the Scottish referendum RT amongst others were spreading stories that Westminster has rigged the vote and that there were secret oil fields being kept quiet because it would make Scotland unimaginably rich. It’s not that it would have swung the vote but added fuel to the anger and division in the country and thus making us less united and harder to govern.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As you know, it's all about statistical significance and all that malarkey. :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Do you not think they would not retaliate with a Nuclear strike if confronted militarily, let's say if NATO was to attack them first ?

I seem to remember Europe and the previous U.S Administration doing very little to stop Putin Annexing Crimea. Why was that do you think ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes but I am not advocating a military strike against Russia.

The invasion was what provoked more sanctions. The invasion of Crimea cost the Russian economy badly: https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp look at what happened after 2014. It's far from 'nothing'. How many hits like that do you think Russians will take? Putin may be very powerful and immune to normal democracy but he still has to balance the interests of other powerful Russians and their people. His political capital to invade further is limited as a result.

If we had rolled over then he might have felt emboldened to take Eastern Ukraine too.

There is more than can be done. If Western Europe can help Eastern Europe reduce their dependence on Russian energy then the pressure can get worse.

There is a wide range of options between not rolling over and military action.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I don't know how you can say that when you are suggesting we don't roll over for them either ?