re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

l distrust the bloody lot of them as they say one thing and do the opposite but what else can you expect from politicians who have become experts at obfuscating and lying to the public.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Warning - false dilemma alert!!

Artificial conflation of two different scenarios to create unanswerable question.... ;)

At the time of the election, enough voters agreed with his general approach, which does not mean agreeing with every specific, especially future unforeseen scenarios.

According to your proposition, anyone who voted Labour in the last election shouldn't have voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour leadership, as Jeremy wasn't part of the Party Leadership at the time...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What he said.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

I trust my mechanic to fix my car, and I listen to his " opinion" on Europe and may or may not vote the same way he does.

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

The two are not mutually exclusive

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

IIRC Labour did promise one but it turns out Bliar lied about that too. Quelle surprise...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Did you not read my post where I said "Forget the election" .. I guess not :) I see this as an easy proposition: if you trust the guy to run the economy and this same guy says "don't leave" then maybe you should listen?

---------- Post added at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

You wouldn't ask George to mend your car either so you need compare apples with apples.

So you don't trust his judgement on the economy in relation to the EU so why trust it in relation to other aspects of the economy?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So, ignore the thing that chose the current government, and puts us in the position we are...

If you caveat your proposition enough, I am sure eventually you might come up with a winning argument...

Life isn't binary - I can agree with someone on some things, but disagree on others; you seem to be saying it's all or nothing, but real life isn't like that.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Clearly if you think that Labour are a bunch of loony cretins you must be a dyed in the wool Tory toff... :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You are dancing around the problem because you cannot face the uncomfortable truth :) That's ok, you can say it: you don't trust George on important economic decisions. That's fine, a lot of other people don't either ..

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Another classic zero add contribution ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Strange, isn't it, your obsession with binary decisions.

I agree with you on some things, and disagree on others - but according to your 'logic', I have to either agree or disagree on all things.

Is that how you live your real life, or just the online one?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I trust George more than I was willing to trust Ed Balls in the " election"

I'll listen to George's opinion on the "EU issue" as I will listen to many expert opinions, and then make up my own mind.

That's how rational people usually reach a decision.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Do you think George is mistaken when he concludes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think you can use the word " mistaken" it's his considered opinion and he's entitled to it. Other opinions will also be available and I'll take them all into account when I come to reach my decision.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One can only cut so much meat of the bone. If George gets it wrong or pees of the Britsh Public to much than his rear-end will be on the line.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ok, so when he concludes that it is wrong to leave the EU on economic grounds it is just his opinion and consequently he may be deemed wrong but when he concludes we should implement an austerity programme, it is sound fiscal prudence ... seems like double standards to me ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We already have double standards with one pay policy for MPs, CEOs, Tory Donors etc and another pay policy for ordinary members of the public.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You make it sound like these things are based solely on his input and decision-making - there was me thinking we had a parliamentary democracy, where his decisions are voted upon by either his colleagues, the House of Commons, or the electorate....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Dave the bully is being told to stop being a bully or they'll take him out.

by his own men. can you believe it?

God is being told that he's getting too big for his boots.

Looks like the Thatcher thing is coming around again.
Dave will be crying at the door.

C'ya Dave!

and remember to take a pen at the vote out of the EU thing.
don't let them give you a pencil like they did with the last election thing. otherwise they'll just rub your cross out again.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

bbbbut that's how a dictatorship works ,how can you have a vote that is representative of daves view if you use a pen????;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

David Cameron must be desperate to keep us in the EU judging by the steps he is taking.

It is about as brave as punching someone who has their hands tied behind their back.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think we've all rumbled the dodgy dossier rouse.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see farmers are right old tiz on whether to vote out or not. Traditionally right wing whingers who moan about Europe, they're now having second thoughts when it comes to it. Loss of their major trading partner and loss of subsidies, suddenly it doesn't sound so good to them...

http://www.fwi.co.uk/news/nfu-to-tak...-in-europe.htm

I think this will be a pattern when it comes closer to polling day. People who wanted out, wake up to the realities and how it will personally affect them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The Silicon Roundabout/Tech startup scene is mostly for staying: http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/24/sho...r-should-i-go/

It's an industry that is especially 'European' in London and one which would need to be able to recruit from across Europe irrespective of the result of the referendum.

How will quickly will they be able to hire EU citizens?

How easy can EU citizens setup companies in London?

What happens to Fintech startups (like this one founded by EU, not British, citizens) which benefit from the open market in services across the EU?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is that much scare mongering that I have no doubt like most the whole fear factor of the gov and all the blockages they are putting on the leave campaign that we will still be in the EU at the end of all this....getting shafted even more than we do now for even having the attitude to stand against the EU and causing all this disruption.

Still I will vote NO regardless then sit back back while the UK gets put in the naughty corner

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It would be good if the other EU countries could have a vote too.

and they kick us out anyway.
they've had enough of us and this idiot.

Head Shoulders Knees and Toes they were singing.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:D
but does Dave which are which since he doesn't know his backside from his elbow? What had the poor sods at the Day Centre done to deserve that?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More dire warnings I see - the French will roll out the red carpet for out banks, they'll end the bilateral borders agreement in Calais etc. I'm beginning to think that after decades of arguments and whining about what a pain the UK is they don't want us to leave. It's great to learn that they really do have our welfare at heart... :D

Seriously, these are the people we're dealing with. They rather like having their cake and eating it. They like telling the UK what to do and resent the fact that we might be fed up with it. When they start talking about their collective efforts being directed at unwinding existing agreements are they really saying they'll be delighted to stop selling all those nice 'Europroducts' to us by way of punishment? They'd evidently rather try to punish us (and hence the EU) than get on with making the best of the possibilities for new arrangements to be put in place which would be mutually beneficial. It's what happens during an acrimonious divorce in which only the lawyers do well. Anyway, whichever way you look at that it's irrational and surely that underlying mindset is the best possible reason to get out. If there was an iota of doubt in my mind that's now gone, not on the basis that I believe everything will be great outside the EU but the certainty that the EU is like an unhinged spouse and divorce is the only answer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The border arrangements between the UK and France are a bilateral agreement. Nothing to do with the EU at all.

And if France is such a great place for financial services, why aren't they all there already? The Eurozone's financial centre is supposed to be Frankfurt anyway, so in the unlikely event of them all decamping and moving to the continent, I doubt very much whether they're going to set up shop in sclerotic, over-regulated Paris.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't know why you don't think they wouldn't try and take advantage of the situation and try to attempt over industries into their countries. The EU are clearly scaremongering to an extent but equally the Brexit camp are really underselling the consequences too. They won't be able to meet their promises of these wonderful free trade agreements on our own terms.

The only good thing is that if we do vote to leave then it will likely be the Brexiters taking hold of the Tory party and therefore tasking with delivering this vision of Utopian, free-wheeling, Britain.

---------- Post added at 09:00 ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 ----------

Because they don't need to be there.

https://next.ft.com/content/e90885d8...b-8564e7528e54

The single market lets us sell and trade across the EU without any hassle. If it becomes easier for them to do this in Frankfurt then part, not all, of the these business will go there.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of course in that event Cameron will be a lame duck and will have to get the chop. Every cloud has a silver lining. :)

As the world's 5th largest economy there are very few countries that could afford not to trade with us. Least of all France.

There's another thing to throw into the equation: We and the US set which air corridor a carrier can use over the Atlantic, some are much more economical than others. Just saying...;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron will almost certainly go.

It's the terms of how they trade with us is the issue. Trade agreements are not just the agreement to drop tariffs and they do not have to apply to all trade between the countries. For example the Canada-EU trade deal doesn't cover financial services.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron is already going, he doesn't give a toss and has nothing to lose. He's stated many times he will not be PM for a 3rd term.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A hypothetical question.

If Trump won the US Presidency would you rather be in or out of Europe based on that single fact? In other words would you like to try to negotiate trade agreements with a US run by him?

The MiL came up with a Trump win and us leaving the EU so that got me thinking about after leaving negotiations.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes they are and the fact that the French would use that agreement as an additional bargaining chip in a debate about the EU says it all really.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Free trade agreements tend to be long-term projects conducted by a government's civil service. The minister who happens to be in charge may have some input but the colour of the government of the day doesn't normally make a whole lot of difference, except where that government is from one extreme or the other. And no, for all his nasty rhetoric, I don't think Trump is quite bad enough to be called an extremist.

The government of the United States makes precisely no difference at all to my views on Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Someone remind me why Labour are so desperate to stay in again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNAd...nnel=BardGuido

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A lot of effort is going in to ensure that we stay in the EU.

The EU has little respect for the UK given that a German politician has threatened a trade war if we leave and now the French have threatend to allow migrants through to the UK.

Politicians keep telling us that staying in the EU is best but you have to ask for whom is it best?

Migrants arriving will not be housed in the locality of your MP.
Nor will they be competing for MPs' jobs.
The children of migrants won't be attending the schools attended by the children of MPs.
Nor will they be attending the same medical facilities as MPs.

The truth is that while the MPs make the decisions about the EU it is ordinary members of the public who will suffer the impact.

Having some migrants is one thing because there are some we need but becoming the EU's dumping ground is another. Something to thing about when we vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I suspect that negoting with him would be fairly straightforward. Seems like a straightforward kind of guy :shrug:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As Chris says it doesn't really matter who is President (although the President has to want to do it before handing it off to the civil servants) but Trump is anything other than a straightforward kinda guy as discussed in the other topic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://content.time.com/time/special...068227,00.html

His negotiating style appears to be somewhat unusual, and it's 'straightforward' if 'straightforward' means taking something without paying for it...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What are your views? Would you rather be in or out of Europe based on Trump winning the US election?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just watching the news, BMW have advised works to vote to stay in Europe, the BMW representative says it's due to many EU works working in the UK for BMW.

An a manufacturing company also advises to stay in Europe stating 50% of its work force is European.

No mention of British employees, very interesting. I guess if all the EU workers had to leave there would be a lot of jobs for the British work force to fill.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see big benevolent Facebook is going to change its practices so that they can pay more tax to UK PLC. Great, about time too, but on the subject of timing is this possibly just an example of BigCorp trying to influence the outcome of the referendum? Let's face it, one of the main concerns about staying in the EU is TTIP and the power that agreement would give to huge companies. If they see it that way, these people would hate to see us leave the EU wouldn't they so why not, in the run up to the vote, take the opportunity to show they mean us no harm and are all soft and squidgy after all?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35724308

Of course it could all just be a convenient co-incidence for the IN campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What does this have to do with the EU? Companies should have to pay tax either way and it's not the EU's fault if they don't considering France and Italy are seemingly doing better at extracting it from Google.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

A lot of people have their conspiracy glasses on at the moment.

IDS is all upset at the moment: EU referendum: Duncan Smith attacks Remain 'smears'. He is probably the last one who should complaining?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

MEPs allowed to claim £120,000 in expenses without proof of how money is spent .......EU officials don't want to saddle MEPs with an 'administrative burden' which would hamper their freedom
:dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Over 3 months more of this depressing mudslinging. I hope the Govt. are going to remember to actually govern inbetween fighting each other.
The result will be a predictable stay in with a low turn out. Our economy will have been damaged by all the uncertainty, and tax payers money wasted on this pointless exercise.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I thought I'd explained that. The TIMING of the announcement is what I'm wondering about not the decision. The referendum is only a few months away and these 'negotiations' have been going on for ages. Making this decision now (and I'll wager it won't be the last before the vote) as opposed to after the vote could be argued to be helping to sustain the status quo, especially given the liking of large companies to do just that and ensure we stay in. The last thing big business needs right now is more anti BigCorp sentiment.

It's only a discussion point, a passing thought, offered for debate.

---------- Post added at 12:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

Nice, just about everything the EU does is to hamper most of us with extra complications in our lives, directly or indirectly. Life must be tough being an MEP eh?... :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How did you think Farage supported his campaigns?;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes - the difference being that he will be quite happy to stop being an MEP and is doing a pretty good job towards that end. ;)

The irony of him being paid by them whilst at the same time being, hopefully, instrumental in us getting out would be delicious. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Another excellent summary of the EU's failings by Daniel Hannan MEP:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...as-an-MEP.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sounds like a good reason to me... ... if I needed any more reasons... :erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He misses out the rebate though as well as any subsidies/funds that come from the myriad of EU projects.

https://next.ft.com/content/202a60c0...d-09f7778e7377

or if you don't trust the FT: https://fullfact.org/economy/our-eu-...ee-55-million/

The Out campaign are going to distort, mislead and lie to get Britain out of the EU. That behavior won't just been seen by the In campaign.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All these jibes back and for are irrelevant now. Nobody is listening to either side any longer or believing anything anybody says; they are sick to death of it. Just the results of a straw lunchtime poll I did !

The result will be a pathetically low turn out and a divided country, still in the EU. The only plus of all this will be the melt down of the Tory party.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Great example of spin over facts ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The turnout will be high, very high from asking people I know. An the out vote will win, bookmark this. You can then remind yourself I was correct after the referendum.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

True.

It's equally true that those wishing to keep us in have the benefit of far greater power, influence and resources than their opponents both within the UK and in the EU. As a net contributor with a sizeable trade deficit with the EU, they have plenty of '£' shaped reasons for wanting to keep us in whatever it takes. The Eurocrats would also see it as a huge slap in the face if the UK were to leave so there's yet more reasons to do what it takes to keep us in. The same is not true of the other side.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So basically keep your mouth shut should you choose to vote out....I guess the men in black will be coming for me then post voting day.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, well who in their right mind would want to get out of such a wonderful organisation in which selfless people in places like Brussels know far better than we do what we want and what we need for our own good.

Frankly anyone who'd want to leave must have a serious screw loose and require instant sectioning followed by an intensive programme of EU funded correctional therapy...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent, needs summarising:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd agree with all of that.

The refusal of the EU to see any sense in spite of the copious evidence that their ideology is fatally flawed is the best possible reason for us to get out. It's time the bluff was called and in the unlikely event that the EU embarks upon a campaign which will hurt them more than it hurts us it'll only serve to show how right we were to cut them loose.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Latest polling has shown a movement towards Remain. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

I expect this movement to continue as polling day gets closer and the risks of exit are drummed home.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Its always easier to go with the safe option, neither side has done anything to convince me of the validity of their cases. So far as I'm concerned both factions should be pretty ashamed of themselves, there's millions of voters who don't know where to begin with this and all they've done is lie and scaremonger, perhaps it's because they don't truthfully know themselves how it'll turn out but don't let that get in the way of anything

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Drummed home? A very left terminology. Do as we say or the world will end.


Actually the world carrys on, but the disabled and needy in the UK will potentially have an extra £10billion is support.

Yes people if we leave Europe our benefits budget could have an extra £10 billion a year. After all the budget cuts saves £12 billion but Europe cost us £82 Billion.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Our local paper is kindly airing views on both sides of this debate.

The MP Hilary Benn's comments.

My rebuttal.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thats you? Well done! :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I thank you.

Made a nice change from writing about broadband.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent rebuttal

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well thought out and written.

Well done Carl.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Quite understandably the Turks are using this crisis to their advantage and in just the same way that migrants have effectively 'forced their way into the EU, so have the Turks, almost certainly. They're making it clear that they want in and there'll be a serious price to pay if they don't get their way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35750968

I don't suppose the single state obsessed, latter day Euro-empire builders will care that their new enlarged state includes a decent sized chunk of Asia but if Israel and Australia can be in the Eurovision song contest, who cares eh?... Anyway, it'll only mean millions more culturally different, low skilled workers more than willing to further undercut wages elsewhere in the EU so who cares?...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I wonder if our Eastern Europeans will kick off when a shedload of Turks arrive to do their jobs for less money?:erm:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I imagine they will but it will of course be too late by then - a fait accompli you might say. Either they'll get on with it or there'll be big trouble but don't worry because people like Donald Tusk know best clearly and you can bet their pay and perks won't be what suffers...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Turkey isn't going to be joining the EU any time soon. Hungary has already suggested it will veto and I would be very surprised if Greece doesn't veto as well (though this time of course, Greece has a big interest in keeping Turkey on side) Memories in that part of Europe are very long

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Tell that to the Turks and the Germans. Pressure will be applied to dissenting nations and the Turks have the EU over a barrel. They're already in talks about speeding up Turkey's entry, not whether to consider the possibility of entry. The lifting of visa restrictions is another step along a well worn path towards entry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unless they do a deal with the EU to take back all the migrants. Ohh look!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Greetings all.

I've been scouring the net for a decent forum on the EU referendum but they all seem to be attached to sites I have no interest in or to localised areas. There isn't one for my area.

In 1975 I voted against the then Common Market knowing it would lead to more than that and it would appear those of us who took that stand were right. The EU is now a Political Organisation, not what the voters voted for in 1975. In the past 4 decades I've seen nothing that will make me change my mind and will be voting OUT on June 23rd.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Hello Big Brian,

you'll find plenty that agree with you here, however I'm not one of them !

The EU isn't perfect, but the grass can always seem greener elsewhere. Stephen Hawking doesn't think leaving is a good idea either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35772714

welcome anyway !

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Then again he is looking at from a selfish point of view. Why should it not be good for science? When it's all said and done the UK loses money by being in the EU anyway to the tune of at least £8 bn per year.

Also they make a lot of our laws we have no say in but have to abide by.

They tell us we have to take their Citizens but we don't always have the room for them. We'd be in a better position to help the Syrian refugees outside the EU because we can cut back on the amount of EU Citizens we allow in.

Our NHS would benefit greatly from the money we save by not being in the EU.

Our economy is the 5th largest and can cope with trading with the emerging economies as well as the US and the EU.

It's probably the unknown people are afraid of but who said life was easy? Sure there may be some hiccups but they are not going to be as bad as Cameron said yesterday. One of the big 4 banks, according to someone I was talking to the other day online, said his boss doesn't think things will be that bad and they have no plans to relocate in the event of a Brexit.

Thanks for the Welcome

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:tu:

I don't know anyone who's looking at this issue on the basis that Out will result in Nirvana. Most folks I talk to cite fundamental issues like sovereignty, immigration, ever closer union, expansionism, interference in our laws and flawed economic policy as the reasons they want out and I agree. Being wedded to the EU is like being stuck with an unreasonable and irrational partner - frankly we'd be far better off suffering the pain of gwhat might be a messy divorce, moving on and learning from the mistake.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's another Issue then LOL. Vote Leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I cannot say that Stephen Hawking's opinion in this matter influences mine. I'm more than happy to take his counsel on a number of topics, he's way more intelligent than I am and far better read, but politics being as subjective as it often is isn't one of them. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

More from the out campaign

Britain could negotiate an "amicable divorce", but retain strong trading links with EU nations.

Some potential models:
◾ The Norwegian model: Britain leaves the EU and joins the European Economic Area, giving it access to the single market, with the exception of some financial services, but freeing it from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs
◾ The Swiss model: Britain emulates Switzerland, which is not a member of the EU but negotiates trade treaties on a sector-by-sector basis
◾ The Turkish model: The UK could enter into a customs union with the EU, allowing access to the free market in manufactured goods but not financial services

Then there is Canada. Cameron said today that it took them 8 years to negotiate with the EU. This is true but then again, they weren't leaving the EU. Britain could negotiate faster as we already have agreements in place, some of which would remain.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Canada's agreement doesn't cover financial services though. Not an ideal model either. The BBC has some info on their deal here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-po...0000a2490a1b7e

Basically it's lopsided in the EU's favour.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Of that I'm sure. There is the alternative of none of those and negotiate our own agreement.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that's the more realistic scenario. Emulating failed models are a no no. We are the fifth biggest economy on the planet. That means we call the shots in most negotiations.

BTW :welcome: to the forum Big Brian. :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The European Union as a block would be the biggest. Germany is the 4th biggest economy in the world on it's own. France is sixth. The idea we would 'call the shots' with the EU is unrealistic.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We don't need to call the shots, since joining the EU we have not once called the shots, so why would we want to if we left? Infact EVERYTIME we tried to call the shots we failed and were ignored. We could tell European company's they can't sell to the 70 million British if we wanted to. Or we could make trading very difficult for them.

We have more European workers than we have unemployed. So if all EU workers went home then the UK would have zero unemployed.

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

Britian is safe in the hands of the british,

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well said Brian.....and welcome :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's in the Lisbon treaty that there is a two year negotiation period after a country votes to leave for all agreements to be reached. I really wouldn't bother looking at other countries treaties either, we'd be incredibly lucky to get one as good as Switzerland and incredibly unlucky to get one as bad as Norway's, best bet is to hope we start from scratch and get something amicable for both sides

Welcome btw

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ty for the worm welcome everyone.

Indeed you are correct. We have the advantage that we already trade with the EU. We export 3 times as much to them as they do to us and do people really believe that the EU would completely turn their backs on the UK? I can't see it happening. The reason we export 3 times more than they do to us is we have what they need. Even if that was cut to 30% it would still be a good deal - it's currently around 45% we export to the EU.

In our case, we would be renegotiating our trade agreement not trying to get one with the EU. They are not going to cut off their collective noses to spite their faces.

Other issues like the scaremonger story that the Jungle would move from Calais to Dover is nonsense. That agreement France and the UK have is nothing to do with the EU, it's a private agreement between us and they have already said that agreement still holds if we leave despite what Allonde and Cameron say.

Defence: Does anyone really believe that if we left the EU and the Russians decided to attack us that the USA would allow it? This is another scare story going round from the IN Campaign.

Jobs: Another scare story is that the UK would lose tens of thousands of jobs if we vote to leave the EU. Over the past few weeks all I've seen is the opposite. HSBC decided not to relocate knowing that a Brexit is possible. Amazon are creating a thousand jobs in the Manchester area with plans for more jobs knowing that a Brexit is possible. Where do they get this from?. Sure some firms may relocate but I don't think they will take the jobs with them. As in the case of the threats in the Scottish referendum, it would be the HQ relocating. It will be a safety net in case things go belly up.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We have more European workers than we have unemployed. So if all EU workers went home then the UK would have zero unemployed.,[/QUOTE]

I am not supporting the side that is pretending we can unilaterally call the shots. Britain is going to find imperfect trade deals, compromises and the inability to get every we want inside or outside the EU. The question is can we have as clout or get a better trade deal out of the EU. I don't think we can and the idea that the fact we're the '5th largest economy' will have little difference when you're dealing with a trading block that will be far bigger.

Another Brexit fantasy. You need to the qualified to do many jobs. One of the examples I gave a few pages back is the Tech Industry in London. They'll take as many IT and mathematics graduates as they can get their hands on and recruit across Europe to do so. It's not for want of trying that they have to go to Europe rather than Britain-Only.:rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We have more European workers than we have unemployed.

Where on earth did you get that from? If you take those the Government exclude from the unemployment figures, which is more than their current unemployment figures, you'll find that the true unemployment figure is closer to 5 million rather than 2 million. How many EU workers are there in the UK exactly? Yes it is a fallacy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Government officials 'hid stats proving there are a MILLION extra EU migrants in Britain'

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/651...er-david-davis

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very interesting indeed. If this is not a reason to vote leave then there is no hope for us. So in essence there are probably more than the Government's official unemployment figures. My apologies.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not so unrealistic when they sell far more to us than we do to them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not quite 3 times the value of exports to the EU vs imports...
http://researchbriefings.files.parli...91/SN06091.pdf Page 4

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why we should leave the EU


1. Reintroduce Full Powers Back to Westminster


2. EU is a Drain on British Economy


3. The EU is undemocratic and unaccountable. Unelected bureaucrats making laws we have to abide by.


4. We need to co-operate against global crime and terror with the world not just the EU.


5. The representatives that we elect should not be able to give the UK away. More and more powers are being given to Brussels.


6. We are not European, I am British, I am entitled to a vote on this.


7. Immigration: The right to control our own policies.


8. Free trade still likely with EFTA, EEC or individual treaties.


9. Hypocrisy towards other EU states. It's no secret what we really think of them and they of us.


10. British taxpayers are forced to bail out other European countries rather than receive goods and services thought not as much as others do.


11. TRADE: The ability to form our own Trade agreements.


12. No chance of changing from the Pound to the Euro. If we stay it makes the possibility of joining the Euro, Chengen and closer integration more likely.


13. Jobs being given to British people if they are the best candidate and not given on a quota system.


14. We don't want a United States of Europe


15. Economical and political ties. It is better we control our own economical and political destiny.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What proportion of those exports to the EU went to Rotterdam and then elsewhere in the world as opposed to actual customers in the EU?

My reasons for leaving the EU have nothing to do with Europe, they have to do with the flawed, bloated, out of touch bureaucracy which runs the EU and has time and time again proved itself to be either inept, duplicitous or even corrupt. Given the fine mess they've created in Europe, I'm wondering just why anyone would vote for more of the same. :confused: When people finally woke up to the mess Labour had made of the UK during their tenure in office they were able to vote them out. They're still out now and thankfully not looking much like making a comeback any time soon. Not so within Eurolalaland where the same faceless suits repeat the same old mistakes year in year out and nobody can do anything about it..

Make no mistake a vote to remain is a vote for more of the same and probably worse since the mere fact that we had the temerity to seek a referendum will be used as a stick to beat us with for years to come.

We have to get out of this mess and I have no doubt that if we do, others will soon follow.