Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Of course it does. But the criteria for receiving it are totally different - so different that when politicians and journalists talk about the 'benefits bill' they customarily separate the pensions component out. IIRC a senior Tory came unstuck a few months ago by raiing against the size of the benefits bill without first discounting the portion paid as pensions.

TBH if we can manage a separate discussion of pensions that doesn't simply re-state all the same overlapping arguments that resulted in this mega-thread merge, just go ahead ... especially if you can find a recent news item to hook it on.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I just heard of someone getting a 'food card' instead of normal benefjts while they being invrstigaged. Not a reliable source though so I was wondering if snyone else has heard of this?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

So if I understand you correctly you want to deprive people of a pension they have contributed to all their life so that people who have contributed little or nothing get that money ,and you justify this because in your opinion they have enough .I have a modest private pension so does that mean you want to take my state pension away that I have paid all my life

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

So bloody what,it doesn't matter what the benefits bill is ,if people can work they should .

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No I want to cut the deficit

Not denying that as I said I see it as a necessary step to cut the debt

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

As i see it a necessary step to remove ALL benefits from those lazy buggers who refuse to work, have never worked because they refuse to work and will not work because they think they are owed something for nothing. I don't care if it means they get kicked out of there state funded house, it might make them work

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What happens if there's kids involved?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

As in bringing back the workhouses you mean?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If they will not work other than to make babies why should we fund them. You have to make a judgement call. Why should we fund the ones that will not work because they are lazy ***** and just spend the day baby making. ???

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

And humping the misses every other day to produce yet another baby

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

So what do you want to happen to the kids then?

I do agree with what you're saying but I don't have any answers to what happens when kids are involved, so what do you suggest?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Maybe the kids are put with foster parents in the short term untill the lazy gits who refuse to work get the picture. Your right its difficult but at the moment its a get out clause to allow lazy gits who refuse to work to still get everything given to them on a plate.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I'm more inclined to say they should only pay for the 1st child only. But starting from X date and not for existing families. At least that would be a start and send out a warning.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think it should be based on need.

I no longer receive child benefit, and to be honest I didn't need it so I wasn't bothered.

If my private pension pays out enough so that I don't need State pension as well, I'd also happily forgo that too.

I say if, as I can't predict the future.

Savings have to made, and this means and end to universal benefits across the board.

However, any government or prospective party would be mad to propose such a thing.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Very good idea :tu:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I agree but wider reform will only work if the benefits system shows it will not be 'blackmailed' into providing child related benefits for those who cynically, or otherwise, set about producing more and more children to secure housing and fund their lifestyles.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Hasn't the benefit cap sorted that out ,or at least made a step In the right direction

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

That's exactly what it is ,blackmail ,to force the state to support them by means of the kids

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Indeed they will get Benefits until there kids are 18 and for 15 miniets of fun. Not bad work if you can get it ;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I've always said if your on benefit you shouldn't have any new kids and even sign a contract to say you understand that whilst on benefit you agree and understand that if you do have kids you won't get extra money. It is lunacy that children can be used by the cynical to extend their benefit and any reform that stops it is one i'd support. Trouble is our biggest problem with welfare is that all political parties want it there so they can misuse it when they want to massage figures and it's why none of them will ever reform to a practical standpoint.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

15 minutes??!!... :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :D

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And you're the Duracell rabbit, I take it? :( :D

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Lets make one thing clear in regards to lazy gits who don't want to work and sit on their backside and claim benefit.

When l got made redundant four years ago, l did everything possible to get a job, BUT l needed a job that paid a salary to keep my family - approx 18/19 kg per year.

The jobs that were on offer were between 15/17 kg per year. I was not prepared to take a job that paid that amount. I was not lazy my benefit was £75.00 per week for my family and out of that that l had to pay rent and council tax.

I worked damn hard to find a job, sitting in my car and taking company details (which l still have today to remind myself) then go home and send emails and faxes to the companies.
I got more interviews that way then going through JS and all the government talk of getting work. I finally got my present job via my voluntary work.

Its ok for members to blast people at having the lack of courage to find work, but most of the work which may be out - does not pay enough.

Some members may say l work for 16 kg a year, good for you, but not everyone sits on there backside and claim benefit- which you are entitled too.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think the "community service" for your dole, will raise the crime rate in the UK by way of, if you commit a crime to make money. you get "community service" as a punishment.

so if you're doing "community service" anyway. then the thinking will be that they may as well turn to crime.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Arthur hits the nail on the head there. People on benefits will refuse any job that doesn't pay enough. I'm realistic enough to realise that I won't be getting a position that pays 7 or 8 pound an hour for a 40 hour working week. I would be happy with minimum wage for 40 hours a week.

I remember once whilst waiting in the Jobcentre a man was sitting with his advisor and she was telling him he needed to apply for any job to make sure he didn't get sanctioned. He turned around and said he wouldn't work for anything less than £25,000 a year. This is without any qualifications or work experience. He said why should he work for less than that.

It is because of the attitudes of people like him that make companies go out and employ foreign labour.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I wasn't put off low paid work I must say, what also gets me is those who won't do some jobs as they seem tinting they are 'beneath' them I started as a cleaner in a warehouse. I've always thought what's important is to be working as you'll find it easier to be on work and looking rather than not.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Having a conversation with the gaffer yesterday and i asked what had happened to a driver i had not seen for a few weeks ,turns out he's left to sign on so he can get a bigger house ,and have his mother living with him and his missus

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I don't believe it.

why would anyone want their mother come and live with them?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think you'll find it's the low wages they can get away with paying that makes them hire foreign workers, look at Holland, they don't have many economic migrants because they pay a living wage

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Nothing good will come from demonising and alienating a section of society what we need to do is include everyone and get back to the days where if you could work you felt obligated to work. We've lost that and the economic and social cost has been enormous what more proof is needed for the whole demonising doesn't work. That said there is no point instilling a good work ethic in those people for whom there isn't a job and the sad reality is we still have far more people out of work then there are vacancy's for them to apply for it simply cannot be written off as "lazy people".

We also need to make sure that we as a society don't let lousy politicians lead us into a cynical round of divide and conquer because that doesn't aid any of us it merely allows them to get off free for their failures. We do have problems in welfare that isn't up for debate the problems exist and we have a tiny minority who take any chance to abuse the system and they must be dealt with specifically not a wide brush approach that we currently have because it doesn't work.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

we need to train the long term unemployed not exploit them. Collage courses plumbing brickwork carpentry practical courses that give them a chance to better themselves and as long as they apply themselves and turn up they should be able to keep dole. ( I know its a repeat but this thread is all repeats just like Dave)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

they will be screwed come universal credit

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Seriously wtf is going on

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...y-8872496.html

Government going to dismiss this to as people just after a free meal

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

He's got 'rights' you see. The right to exist free from responsibility to those who fund his selfish lifestyle...

Rights have been doled out like confetti. Pity more of them haven't been linked to responsibilities.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

We are now officially down in the books as a third world country.

when people come and see the queen, we can ask them if they can spare 3p.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

this might just cover the rise in energy bills.

This is where we really need a mixed market economy. People will die if we have a cold winter and its all down to greedy shareholders and uncaring profiteering companies

---------- Post added at 08:56 ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 ----------

It is not so much him who has the right to live but the kids. He is abusing the fact you can not leave kids destitute.

An alternative would be a law for unemployed and a maximum number of children or a criminal offence is committed but would anyone support something like that .

I do of course hope the Universal credit nips this in the bud and totally leaves people like this in the crap. It is about the only possible good thing about UC

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

no they wont , the article mentions at least one person getting dla which means there will be no benefit cap under universal credit.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I did not know that. Poo one so UC is a total disaster after all then. I wonder if his wife is a cousin

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Have you tried looking in the mirror !!!

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Osborne has said that he will introduce more cuts, to bring everything in order. What he can do is stop giving out handouts to migrants who have just arrived in the UK.

Instead of picking on the people that have worked in this country for years and paid into the system. And all the people that have had there benefit stopped due to ATOS, l read in the media yesterday that MORE people have committed suicide over the Bedroom Tax and sick people being forced back to work - even though they cannot work.

Such as the sick baby that was in the media yesterday, the carer has had her benefit stopped as DWP has stated that the baby is of normal health. See the picture.

---------- Post added at 12:21 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

http://news.sky.com/story/1190692/ge...-an-extra-25bn

Read this, this is what this idiot thinks he is going to do.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Arthur,regarding immigrants,am I correct in saying you read the Daily Mail?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Everybody reads the Daily Mail.
that's where we get the insider info they don't want you to know, from.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Erm...he has. Migrants must wait 3 months.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Oh dear Arthur - looks like Labour don't think the Conservatives are being tough enough regarding benefits - this from the new shadow work and pensions secretary.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...reeves-welfare

'Labour will be tougher than the Tories when it comes to slashing the benefits bill, Rachel Reeves, the new shadow work and pensions secretary, has insisted in her first interview since winning promotion in Ed Miliband's frontbench reshuffle.'

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

That assumes they haven't been here for 3 months already, ie arrived before Oct 2013. Then they can also become "self employed" by selling the "Big Issue" giving them instant access to several benefits.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Migrants had to wait 3 months anyway ,they can receive the first 3 months of benefits from their home country ,so in actual fact nothing has changed

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I read three papers - The Mirror, Sun and Express.

I find that migrants should NOT be allowed benefits for at least 12 months to 24 month.

We all know that faked documents can be produced and that the benefit system is terribly flawed.

More checks have to be done.

I watched a programme last year on Saints and Sinners, where this system is terribly flawed - where a council official had come from Ghana and was fiddling the benefit system to pay money to her family abroad and offered her family accommodation and they were not even in this country.

She was fired from her job and jailed for it. This is how easy it was.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

What, its that easy to get a prison sentence?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yes the benefit system is flawed but Arthur it isn't just immigrants taking the mickey out of the system we have enough home grown to be a problem although not quite the scale of problem politicians want us to believe. Sadly this will continue because this government is doing absolutely sod all to make the system less easily used just indulging in headline grabbing soundbites that make little or no difference to the integrity of the system.

This govenment like all others before it has no interest in really making the system secure because they want to be able to manipulate it as they want like all others before them. Until we hand the integrity of the system to an independent group whose sole aim is to make the system work as it is meant too we will never have a benefit system as free as it can be from fraud and misuse. Right now this government is cost cutting usually hitting the genuine more then the frauds and pretending it is reform and forrtunately for them most of the public are buying it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Sadly,the program makers of Benefit Street on Channel 4 chose to pick on folk who were conned intae making the program,the good news is that they will now record a future program on tax evasion,including government ministers.......wow,I just looked out of my window and saw a pig fly over our house.

http://omg.wthax.org/4Hmzfu.jpg

[ADMIN EDIT: image changed to link to prevent page disruption]

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If I were interested in law breakers, I'd be focusing on tax evaders. Convenielntly, that graphic doesnt separate out 'avoid' (legal) from 'evade' (illegal).

I wonder who made it, and what their agenda is?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I wonder who caused the banking crisis,in fact I know who caused it.

http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/20...rited-mess-52/

---------- Post added at 00:39 ---------- Previous post was at 00:29 ----------

I'd better add this link produced by a Tory.....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rame...b_2007552.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I left school in the 70's, me and a few mates, who left at the same time, all got a job at the same place. After so long I got bored and started another job right away, I got bored several times until I was finally happy with the job I found. There seemed to be loads of jobs for the taking back then, it was great.

I wouldn't like to be a school leaver now, or anyone who's out of work for that matter. It must be so difficult to cope, especially when almost every bit of news in the media is about job cuts, benefit cuts, benefit scroungers, immigrants, mass immigration, immigration, immigration and even more immigration... it has to be the most talked about subject out there.

I can only see it getting worse, there will be rioting on the streets, people will have had enough, they will have nothing to lose, no job, no money and no hope. At least in prison it's warm, you get fed, fit and educated.

I'd say the government / powers that be, know exactly what they're doing, it's as if this is what they want, they want to destroy the country.

If you're going to vote in the future, then my advice is to spoil it by voting for none of the above. I honestly find it ridiculous that there are still hundreds of thousands of people out there that will vote for the same dishonest, corrupt parties. They are laughing at us! Even UKIP, they'll all stab you in the back, and I guarantee you that whoever you vote in, you'll be calling for them to resign within a year, and all they will do is point the finger and blame the previous lot of scoundrels... Oh yeah, and the poor, working class and the disabled will carry on paying the price.

Things need to change, but I can only see a change for the better happening by the situation getting worse, ie even more suffering.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Avoidance schemes aren't legal, the most aggressive lurk in murky waters that need a legal challenge to prove their illegitimacy, it's very convenient that a large number of the public excuse these shysters practices by saying 'avoidance = legal' rather than give them the benefit of the doubt I'm all in favour of lumping then in together until legality is proven.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

But how tough will any government be on tax avoidance? Risk losing UK investment by business who will say "other companies get away with and other countries allow it so let's go there"? I dislike many of Amazon's working practises plus their use of tax loopholes however they do employ a lot of people in unemployment blackspots.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

In matters of law, it is traditional to require proof of wrongdoing, not vice versa. That may seem inconvenient to you, but it is a protection you withdraw at your own peril because it protects you from a capricious or vindictive government just as anyone else, including those that use tax avoidance schemes.

On which point, it's very convenient of you to point to the murky end of the spectrum where HMRC should most certainly be looking to prove wrongdoing, then implying that this is the entire meaning of 'avoidance'. Tax avoidance starts with everyone who ever put money in an ISA, travels through well-worn practices such as the self-employed tradesman who buys new equipment for his business this year rather than next, to offset against his tax bill and maybe avoid going over a threshold, and winds a very long road before it ends up in the sorts of places you're pointing at.

My question is, when people post up big graphics that lump in avoidance (legal) with evasion (illegal), exactly where have they drawn the line between the avoidance they count in their figures and the avoidance they leave out? Do they leave any out at all?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

How the hell is an isa an aggressive tax avoidance scheme, you play straight into their hands you really do, time and again courts decree specific aggressive tax avoidance schemes illegal and people like yourself still call out 'what their doing isn't illegal it's avoidance'

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

An ISA is not an 'aggressive tax avoidance scheme'. And 'aggressive tax avoidance scheme' is not a phrase used in the graphic posted above.

The word used in the graphic is 'avoidance'. 'Avoidance' is a very broad spectrum which, at one end, has common practice such as ISA use.

So, I pose the questions again: do you think the person that compiled the graphic has been in any way discerning about what figures to include? Are all avoidance measures included? If not, where was the line drawn? What criteria did the person compiling the graphic use to determine which (legal) tax avoidance measures to include alongside (illegal) tax evasion and which to leave out?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I wonder where the Tax Justice and PCS got their £30 billion figure from (even though they quote it is from HRMC), as the HMRC reported to Parliament it was between five and ten billion?

http://www.publications.parliament.u...cc/788/788.pdf page 3

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Excellent post,apart from the immigration part,many folk have left these shores seeking a better life,many have also came to the U.K. in search of a better life,is there any difference?

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

I did the big graphic so that those Tories who may be of short sightedness may be able tae view it,come tae think about it,it may need tae be a bit larger methinks.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Why the 'mock Scottish'? (especially as you are English).

btw, you seem to be avoiding Chris's question with polemic....

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I guess its simply because I've spent 63 years up here,is that okay?

As for Chris,he's too set in his ways,as I am set in mine,he'll say white,I'll say black.
Perhaps he can answer this,seeing as he's such a bright spark.
The Dept of Work and Pensions have roughly 3,250 staff investigating benefit fraud of £1.2bn. HMRC has just over 300 staff investigating tax evasion of £120bn,can he explain it or will he come away with even more claptrap (again).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

At a guess, I would say it's because with benefits, there are a larger number of people individually contributing to the total, whereas with tax, a smaller number of people or businesses are responsible for a larger chunk each. :shrug:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think you will find it is around £10 billion (by their estimates), as I posted (from their information) earlier...

Even the Guardian gives an estimate of £30 billion (HMRC gap analysis of tax collected versus tax estimated to be collected), of which £10 billion (that figure again) is avoidance/evasion.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-tax-avoidance

Just repeating something a lot, doesn't make it factual.....;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

and of course there is no way the figures have been massaged to hide the problem is there? Of course no tory voter/ supporter would ever want to avoid paying large chunks of their tax would they?

Some people here quote government figures like they are gospel are you all really that naive???

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

We can use made up figures if you want :rolleyes:

The reason official figures are quoted is because those are the figures that are accepted by other institutions .Of course you can feel free to challenge those figures, and many do but they usually they have their own figures backed up by research and evidence so they stand up to scrutiny ,not just plucked out of fresh air

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I personally prefer to just blanket not trust the government. It works for me as far as I am concerned they are all lying cheating self serving slime and I am not a sheep

I also think the same of Labour and Liberals and even UKIP even though I am a member I just want out of the EU

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Some very good points raised there, but I'm of the opinion that if you don't vote you can't really complain about things.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I beg to differ, people who don't vote or spoil their vote have every right to complain.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Guilty till proven innocent? Best lock me up then :dozey:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The reason I don't vote is my complaint - I don't trust any of them to do a good job. Clean up politics and then I'll consider it. Which means I'll likely go to the grave never having voted for decades.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And everyone else who's self employed. Arranging your tax affairs to make the most efficient use of tax allowances and rules is what you pay an accountant for. I'm still waiting for one of our resident Tory-haters to tell us where exactly they think the line is, between legal tax avoidance that they approve of, and legal tax avoidance they disapprove of.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

you do seem to bleat a lot, though.....;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

so much I would like to say but I would not get away with what you do

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:12 ----------

corporate tax avoidance when it costs the country millions and anyone who uses deception to save tax like coffee beans in a Scandinavian country for example . Those who declare everything fairly are fine imo

This from a pretty much all political party hater

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Am hearing this "if you don't vote you don't have the right to complain" a lot and hearing it more as we get near an election but as Russ says what other way do we really have to protest our discontent with the current system. Some say spoil your paper, why yes they count the number of spoilt votes but take zero notice of it but low voter turn out gets politicians talking about it everwhere. Trouble is the reality is we have a current political class which doesn't care one bit about the electorate they are simply a means to get power thatcan be ignored once poower is achieved.

I've voted all my adult life and all that time i've been a consevative voter but i cannot vote for this bunch in the party right now and will not vote labour either what else can i do but not vote.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Dude, you just called everyone who disagrees with your viewpoint sheep - what is it exactly you don't get away with?

Passive/aggressive much?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

did I say I was referring to you saying I bleat? no you didn't perhaps I mean't something else? hmmmm

Oh and to be pedantic I said I am not a sheep I did not actually call anyone anything ;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Yes you did ,you intimated that all those who think differently to you i.e trust official figures are sheep

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

To speak that way can indeed result from living among those who speak that way. To write that way ... well, that's usually just an affectation beloved of cybernats.

There's nothing a hoary old Clydeside lefty likes more than polemic. ;)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

my intimation is purely seen by your perception

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

it's nothing to do with my perception it's the meaning of what you wrote .

"and I am not a sheep" This means that anyone who believes or uses official figures ARE sheep ,do you get it now

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Pose the question again to whom? The post I replied to was one where you attempted to say that avoidance was legal when often it isn't and how I think measures should be in place that require them to prove dubious practise legal before it's used rather than wait sometimes years for judgement to be reached and negotiate their bill down.

---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

What for, how many times have your accounting practices been found to be illegal and besides when has any of these shysters ever been locked up, perhaps if we started that it might put paid to some of the worst practices

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Err, no, avoidance is always legal, by definition. If not paying tax is achieved by illegal means, it is by definition 'evasion'. Someone may claim it's one when it's the other, but that's a different matter. The problem with the figures quoted above is that the activists behind them think as you do - they wish to simply declare a proportion of tax avoidance to be illegal, without there having been any trial or due process. That is not how a free society based on the rule of law functions.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

No avoidance isn't always legal hence vodafone had to pay all that cash back and why we now have general anti abuse rules in place.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

If measures are shown to be illegal, then they are not avoidance, they are evasion. It's very simple.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Is this not obvious? Avoidance is when people or companies use laws to avoid paying tax.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It is obvious to all but those who wish to make tax a moral rather than a legal issue, the better to inflate figures such as those posted above.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It's not very simple at all nor is it obvious Russ, they exist in the murky waters that need a court judgement to decide if it's legal often under advice that the judgement will go against them but happy to try their hand knowing it can take years to be decided and a favourable settlement with hmrc could follow

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

I think you're just under the impression that avoidance and evasion are the same thing.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

And after that comment I'm under the impression you're not up to this debate

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

The sooner IDS gets the boot the better... Why or how does he get away with it all I don't know.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...-credit-delays

Looking more like a repeat of the NHS IT system.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

It's a massive change to the system and delays are therefore not a surprise. Personally I think it's the way to go as the benefits system has become fragmented and far too complicated. Whether it's achievable technically and/or at what cost is a different matter and as has been proved many many times over the decades, such reform doesn't often come cheap or without problems and isn't always possible in the form originally envisaged for various reasons. There's no doubt that we have a bloated, complex and user-unfriendly benefits system and trying to reform it is not a bad thing but it won't be easy and it'll be interesting to see how this pans out.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Just to add hmrc is successful in 80% of cases it brings against the most aggressive tax avoidance schemes

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g...heme-promoters

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

So what is the difference between tax avoidance and evasion?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

what has tax evasion and tax avoidance got to do with the mega benefits thread?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Your answer should start from http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35660701-post762.html

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

still do not it really has to do with benefits 3 pages or more on the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Anyway none of my business of course

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Not sure what you're saying but a natural progression of the benefits bill is whether it can be afforded and ways to cut it. Ways of getting more in to the treasury is a fair topic.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Why don't you ask that to hmrc, successful in 80% of aggressive tax avoidance cases they bring to court, if they don't know the difference between someone using allowances fairly and correctly to reduce their tax liability and some shyster taking the pish we really are in trouble.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

sorted so I can bring up cutting the state pension again seeing as nearly half of the welfare bill goes on it. I serious think it needs means testing I know a lot do not like it but its the biggest bill the tax payer pays into the population.


ESA and JSA makes up just a fraction of the costs the state pension does

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Funnily enough I did exactly that about 15 years ago as part of a work project I was doing. But as you seem to think neither are lawful I'm curious to know what you think the differences are (if at all).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.
 

Aggressive tax avoidance schemes aren't legal in 80% of cases, it's proven. Not really sure why you or anyone else would want to stick up for then.