Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If any of them actually told the truth it would be political and electoral suicide. Given a choice between career prospects and morality it appears that most decide the first option pays better.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18101338

and in other news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18100049

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Hm... Maybe they'll stop printing Sterling for a bit while they're doing it.. :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Did anyone else see that poor Greek stand-up comic getting lectured by Abbott and Portillo on This Week last night?

The poor woman was commissioned to make a short report on how awful things are back in the country of her birth, in which she repeated the often-claimed but rarely argued position that Greece has to stay in the Euro because the Drachma would be a disaster. Back in the studio she looked like a shame-faced sixth-former getting carpeted by the headmaster for turning in a substandard politics essay.

I was surprised to find out just how Euro-sceptic Diane Abbott is, but even more surprised to hear Michael Portillo take so much time to acknowledge the domestic downside of Grexit followed by devaluation, although he did still say he believed Greece quitting the Euro was a good idea on balance. Both of them shared the view that it was always bound to end up this way.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Economist had an article today stating that Greece leaving the Euro would be a disaster but that it's probably going to happen anyway. Most of the things I have read suggest that this is the common view. It seems like forces outside of everyone's control are conspiring to cause Greece to leave regardless of the arguments against it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I have no doubt that it will be a disaster - but all things are relative. Greece staying in the Euro is also a disaster. The question is, which is worse? The answer is something the Eurocracy and other assorted enthusiasts seems not to want to engage with. They simply repeat the mantra that Grexit would be disastrous whilst refusing to engage with current reality.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Eurocrats are behaving like rabbits staring at car headlights and the markets are clearly already factoring in a Greek default. In their haste to build their very own superstate, they've probably done more harm to that grand ambition than any Eurosceptic could've managed.

Never had Abbott down as a Eurosceptic but then I never had her down as a person who'd send her child to a private school... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I WANT the euro zone to go into meltdown. Then we can start to rebuild around the original open market

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I just want the Brussels gravy train to come to an end and the idea of a federal Europe to be dropped.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Where is Alan Fry you would think he would be here screaming from the forum roof tops about his united europe :shocked:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What provision is there in the EU rules for the social implications of dire circumstances such as these I wonder. For example, what's to stop Spanish, Greek or whatever, unemployed youths pitching up en masse elsewhere in the EU and creating additional financial and social burdens there? :confused:

As long as the Eurocrats remain in denial about the problems being faced across Europe, the financial uncertainties and risks of chaos increase.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If a load of Greeks wash up on our shores with their Euro-denominated life savings in a soggy carpet bag, then I'm all for it. They can open restaurants and help fuel our recovery. They might just find it a bit harder to dodge the tax man over here though.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

There would be smashed plates and Feta cheese everywhere :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I can accept that more than some of the inherited issues we have had to put up with from some areas of the EU, like hole in the wall fruad and credit card copying. There is one area of the EU that has member who excel in begging. So a bit of plate smashing is nothing :LOL:


Posted from my iPad

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Does anyone think the Eurocrats ever had a 'Plan B'.... :confused: :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

That's what's supposed to have happened when times were good. Now times are hard, jobs thin on the ground, benefits and services under extreme pressure, it's likely to stir up a whole lot of resentment and trouble I'd have thought. We have friends who emigrated to Greece a few years ago and don't like the anti-foreigner resentment they're starting to see.

It's a serious question. What could any EU member state do if they found themselves being flooded with EU migrants seeking work, housing, benefits etc. etc. as a result of some major financial collapse in their own country? :confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think that would be a big fat NO

All they are interested in is lining there pockets with our money

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yep ,i would go with that .It might even be worth thinking about righting off all debts and just starting again only this time with fully elected officials

still banned i believe :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The 5 stages of Greece..

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/k%C...-stages-greece

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Merkel 'suggests' Greek referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18121414

Since when was Greece part of Germany?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Since Germany decided it ruled Europe

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

To be fair to our Ang, she is being asked to pick up the tab for the mother of all parties ... You can't blame her for asking them if they wouldn't mind promising not to smash any more plates.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Seems a little unfair to Essex girls marty :D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

He who pays the piper calls the tune eh?

It's a dangerous game being played right now... :erm:

---------- Post added at 10:49 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------

I'd be more inclined to be 'fair' about that if I didn't have the niggling feeling that the whole raison d'etre of the EU was the creation of a German dominated superstate.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Since they were asked to bail them out maybe? Greece's situation is in large part of their own making and it's not unreasonable to suggest that they put their house in order if they wish to continue receiving the bailout money.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Who said they don't need to put their economic house in order? It's not only the Germans who have vast sums of money at stake either - directly and indirectly. However, it's not Germany's business who the Greeks elect and how they do it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The original reason was to tie France and Germany together in order to prevent another European war. It was about preventing German dominance, not enabling it. Unfortunately the supposed counterweight to Germany (France) is still a largely unreformed Socialist mess. Germany is the strongest economy in Europe and the single currency has been so inflexibly designed that it is always going to favour the strongest economy in the zone over the weaker. If France had been the strongest economy, then it would be France now sitting on a massive cash pile and getting pressurised to bail out the Greeks. But it's not. If you want to blame the Germans for anything, blame them for being efficient and hardworking.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well it is because the party that currently stands to get elected look like rejecting the austerity measures that were a condition of the bailout. It is Germany's business if this happens, they are entitled to not to have to throw good money after bad in order to prop up a unsustainable system in Greece.

The Greek people are being lied too when they are told they can reject those austerity measures without consequence. They probably don't care anymore but the German suggestion of a referendum is probably designed to make clear what they are voting for.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I really don't think many Greek people are stupid enough to believe they can reject austerity without any consequences. It's up to the Greeks to vote for what they feel is the best way forward for Greece and take what consequences follow. Germany should not try to influence that by interfering in their internal affairs and suggesting a referendum. How would Merkel react to another state suggesting the German people be given a referendum on whether their country should continue to fund bailouts?

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

Well that's the official reasoning presented to us in the history books yes but to what extent it represents the whole truth isn't clear. It seems entirely possible to me that the Germans knew full well that France would never live up to its role in the 'partnership' thereby leaving the door wide open to German influence.

I don't blame the Germans for being successful and getting their way BTW. I blame the Eurocrats for either being naive/stupid enough to think their promised land was anything other than a mirage or being complicit in a huge deception designed to bring about a single German dominated state by hook or by crook.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think it's very far fetched to assume Germany used the EU as a vehicle for dominance. Can't help but think the English preoccupation with WW2 is colouring our impression of Europe and it isn't a healthy attitude.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't think it's far fetched at all and I think it's about time we divested ourselves of this silly notion that every time we differ with the Germans it's all somehow about WWII. Maybe that's just a problem you have. Personally I think the Germans have a lot to be proud about and if more countries ran their affairs similarly they'd be a lot better off.

Why would it be so far fetched to assume that a country like Germany, the powerhouse of Europe, would seek to use (openly or otherwise) its massive and increasing influence within the EU to further its own ambitions? They're not in it for humanitarian reasons are they. If the Germans don't want to dominate Europe economically and politically they're not doing a very job of it are they. Of course that isn't the same as saying that their intent is entirely malevolent, they may just sincerely believe that the only way Europe can survive and prosper is with Germans at the helm and following the German model. Maybe they're right too.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

For the curious here's how the Euro has benefited Germany to the detriment of other countries in the Eurozone, especially the weaker ones.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/6072...-for-the-piigs

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://news.sky.com/home/business/article/16235092

OH dear ,here we go again

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's getting really serious now, it's going to affect Eurovision.

http://news.sky.com/home/showbiz-news/article/16235181

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

A fix you say :shocked: unheard of ;).

One thing is certain though it won't be us with that dirge of Engleburts

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Far fetched, I bet there were some saying the same thing just before Germany started to kill all those innocent people :rolleyes:

Germany has tried twice by force to control Europe, They lost both times now they are trying to rule with a financial fist.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:clap::clap: Think I might have made this point in the past but it's well worth repeating

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You want to think about that? Think about the implications of the comparison you're making? Reconsider exactly what it was Nazi Germany did before you throw those kinds of statements around.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

three spanish banks downgraded to JUNK

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3455...tings-junk.htm

Now nordic banks teetering

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3453...rdic-banks.htm

We heading for BANK CRISIS mark 2

Or should it be mark 3

wonder how much all the mess is all down to hyper overpriced land/property. We seemed to been in notion that it could get higher higher indefinately.

Over the years the value of property/land gone down in any significance even during lean periods its tended to only flutuate small margins. Yet rises been more steeper over the years.

You rarely hear housing crash to 50% of its former value.

This tends to drive other mechinisms such inflation standard living and need for comparable wages to suport mortgages.

Its also the biggest debt of any nation to banks mortage lending.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

:rolleyes:

There is a real danger of this Chicken Little behaviour of running around and screaming the sky is falling.You infect everyone else and soon everyone else is doing it.

Start shouting about financial institutions in the same manner and before long you have a panic and what was possible becomes inevitable and there are long queues outside banks.

I think we have a real chance of talking ourselves into a financial meltdown.:(

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Ok let me see

History shows that Germany has a habit of trying to control Europe by any means they see fit.

In the past it has been instrumental in starting wars to help it in that task and Germany has been known to carry out some horrible things to help it in its endeavor to control Europe.

Now they are trying a different option and that is via the Euro, They are demanding that other countries follow what they say IE Greece. I want nothing to do with the EU because i want nothing to do with a country that wants to control it and therefor control any country who is a part of it. That country is GERMANY

I want the Euro to fail so we can return to what we signed up to and that's a common market


Did i make that clear enough for you and yes i was well aware of what i posted in my other post and stand by it

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Markets hate uncertainty and so do investors both large and small. Confidence (often misplaced) is what fuels booms and a lack thereof coupled with the tiresome financial realities of life is what leads to the inevitable bust. As we are seeing with a relatively small economy in Greece, it doesn't take much to rock the foundations of the EU's house of cards. The Eurozone bigwigs' failure to act decisively in sorting out the crisis is what's increasingly spooking everyone and Merkel isn't too keen on staking more German money underwriting EU debt via common Eurobonds without getting something in return. We had plenty of talking and hot air from Europe before and during the Balkans conflict and little seems to have changed. These people love having meetings but don't seem to have a plan B and that's what's really worrying. Yes it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy and many would argue that the difficulty of achieving concensus within such a group of nations was one of the EU's fundamental flaws from the outset. Of course anyone who dared point that out was called a little Englander or something equally derogatory. Right now I reckon the EU is trying to control the spread of a forest fire with a garden hose and I'm certain that Merkel's 'solution' will involve yet more 'integration' and, therefore, German influence within the EU. I didn't think anyone should doubt how high the stakes in this 'game' are. :erm:

---------- Post added at 10:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

Meanwhile, clearly not at all concerned about the potential for chaos in Europe, Teresa May is apparently making plans to restrict EU immigration in the event of a crisis. I understand there are provisions in EU law to allow member states to do this in times of emergency, but what's the betting their definition of an 'emergency' won't be quite the same as ours?...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...collapses.html

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

History shows the Italians and the British had a habit of doing that as well. Only difference is we were more successful. Do you wake up with a burning desire for empire and oppression or is that confined to history? We even fetishise the Empire whereas the Germans are ashamed of their past, the crimes aren't the same scale of course but they were still crimes.

Ditto the UK.

Germany care only about their own country. They are currently bailing out countries in Europe which didn't live within their means and now threaten to damage the Euro and the Germany economy as a result. They do not want to be bailing out Greece, it's a lot of money and it's politically unpopular in Germany. They have to anyway because if the Euro goes down they suffer. This is the extent of their ambition in dictating to Greece, if they want the bailouts then they have to make a commitment to avoiding the need for more bailouts to come. Germany did not cause Greece to overspend or cause them to have a lax approach to collecting taxation.

Germany are actually resisting the Eurobonds plan which many, i.e the French, are arguing for. This would actually be better from the point of view of a 'closer Europe' but they don't want to do it because they would lose out economically.

This isn't a diabolical plan to control Europe. It's panic in the Eurozone Governments.

So, just to make it clear enough for me, you're comparing a Government which was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of people and that committed the Holocaust to the current German government?

Maybe the reason Germany is in such a strong position is because they spend more of their time looking forward rather than obsessing over the past. The world has moved on quite a bit since World War 2 (When it comes to World War 1 it's far more complex than 'The Germans') and it might be time stop using it as the basis for our understanding on international politics.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18193437

http://www.publicserviceeurope.com/e...urobonds-taboo

Further integration seems to be the quid pro quo for German agreement. Not quite the same as Germany being against the idea.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

This the problem governments only themselves to blame deregulating the markets. Should never done this was always one day come back bite them up backside.

free unregulated market with fair capitilism is myth as its full of greed. Without tight reigns it becomes too dangerous. Governments was thick to allow it to get out of hand.

My fear where they going looking at ftse shows there is one heap trouble coming our way. Another brownstuff storm.

This just top movers this shows more banks losing where the money men investing its big trouble here.
It seems these money men really not thinking this through dont realise damage they doing. They lost sight that stocks should never guarantee profits losses will happen so we now get more movement than before. Its like they find the next safe haven. They lose money they gain money always will happen panic not what the world needs.

I agree maggy what really nead cool heads DONT PANIC.

At momemt its OIL, UTILITIES, insurances this my problem by tanking the banks they tanking the economy.

Governments will be forced to bailout again then they will saying MORE Austerity on the wrong end of spectrum.

Lets get markets regulated again stop this nonsense

I now wondering if we need to shift from imeterial wealth to hardcore wealth. Let these bigots play there little games have businesses work on hardcore property, and finance not there stock value.

Take the power away from money men to dictate where they can pressure/tank companies by taking that power away.

It wont happen over night it maybe too late but if I have 20p should not go to the bank as bargaining power of my 20p.

I therefore should never be able to go to bank ask for million loan due to my stock value say 1bn shares as example.

This why western economy tanking due to this stupid scenerio evolved.

That way money men bail the company wont go bust.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Rant, rave, incoherent paranoid mumblings - repeat ad nauseum....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Now now that's no way to talk about the Eurozone leaders...:D

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If all debts are pooled and the Eurozone borrows and gets credit as one then you would need further integration. You can't have Eurobonds without further integration. Germany are holding out because they would lose out, they would be brought down to the level of rest and take on more debt for nothing.

Germany's motivation is economic success for their own country.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Ok clever clogs then whats your solution to the mess. Why dont you think deregulation been bad.

Why do you think my coments paranioa when the markets are bailing from banks putting into oil, utilities and insurance.

Spain already negotiating 16bn bailout there banks so not unrealistic to assume we could end up coughing money to help out ours.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't think anyone actually has a solution that can be guaranteed to work.
However not panicking might be a start.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Signed in to say one thing..... :erm::erm::erm::erm:

Thanks Hugh i now have coffee splatter marks all over my screen :D:D:D:D ...... U owe me for wipes !!!!!








*yes i no that sounded wrong on various different levels ...........

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Clearly there's considerable disagreement about the Eurobond issue and the need (or not) for more integration, not the least with Hollande.

As for Germany's motivation, well that's what I've been saying isn't it? They are at the heart of Europe because it suits them to be so and they have a very clear idea how to further their ambitions for growth - namely by seeking more integration within the EU with them at the helm and with its overall economic policy suiting their needs far better than it does the likes of the Med countries.

I don't think that's some sort of alternative or covert Nazism either - I think it's as simple as one nation seeking to do what's right for it. The problem is that what's right for Germany isn't necessarily what's right or wanted by the rest of us and therein lies the source of growing conflict now times are getting seriously tough.

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 ----------

True. I just hope the Eurocrats' definition of not panicking isn't yet more dithering and burying of heads in sand.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That was the reasoning behind "lebensraum" (living room) which led to WWII and as I have said on this forum before there is more than one type of "invasion / occupation".

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The thing is remember is this is not a problem Germany wanted. They are not helped by a weak and failing Eurozone and they do not want to be the Eurozone's bankers. Rather than telling Greece what to do they would rather not have to bail them out in the first place. They would rather Greece be fine and mind their own business. So when Germany try to dictate Greek policy this isn't to make Germany a stronger country but to lessen the damage Greece can do to them.

No one has shown how Germany have benefited from this crisis. They have just suffered the least because they managed their economy considerably better than, it seems, anyone else. It was very stupid of them to suggest a referendum to the Greeks but it's a reality of the situation there, the Greek people need to know the consequences of rejecting austerity and hence the bailout money.

In the context of this discussion it's ironic that Germany are the ones people suspect of a financial conspiracy :D

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

They are not economically invading Greece. They are attaching strings to the bailout money. If you go to a bank for a loan you abide by their requirements or you do not get the loan.

What is effectively happening here is: Greece need a bailout, Germany say "fine, but you can't keep living as you do. You need to balance your budget and live within your means. If you do not do this, You may have to leave the Euro" and then Germany get accused of throwing their weight around and, amongst the least fair-minded, get compared to Nazi Germany.

If we're going to compare anyone to 1930s Germany then Greece is a better candidate. Depression, serious economic problems for the population, the possibility of rapid inflation and all of this leading to a far-right nationalist party gaining more and more power in elections.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Don't be beastly to the Hun? Seems to be another circular argument developing.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

One issue is that austerity measures can be very different depending where you start from. If you are in a "poorer" country then cutbacks could have much more impact than if you start higher up. So measures that might be unpleasant in Germany could really "hurt" in Greece.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Don't make unwarranted comparisons with Nazism just because it's Germany is my argument. I think such a comparison has no weight other than the fact it's Germany and people seem to think they have a physiological trait to invade Europe. There is little to back up this theory, since Germany are not gaining out of this crisis.

---------- Post added at 15:06 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

Germany has a have better economy anyway so they will hurt considerably less but the austerity required by Germany is nothing compared to that required in Greece. This is because Germany didn't spend beyond their means whilst the Greeks did, and took a very relaxed approach to collecting tax.

It's not the same measures being applied across the Eurozone. It differs from country to country.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Sorry Damien, my attempt at irony failed. I also don't agree that Germany is somehow profiting from this debacle. However I do feel that the whole Euro project was a disaster from the outset. My opinion, solely?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The extent to which Germany, or anyone else, eventually benefits or suffers as a result of this crisis is as yet unknown. I don't recall arguing that the Germans engineered or somehow welcomed the crisis because it would suit them. My point was that the EU seems to have been constructed and since developed in a way which suits the Germans far more than many other member states. The German economy has benefitted in all sorts of ways from Eurozone policy and when other nations needed higher or lower interest rates they weren't usually forthcoming because, IMHO, of the huge German influence over matters financial and economic. You say they have been successful in managing their economy better but their ability to do so is linked heavily to wider Eurozone policy so it's hard to argue that they've been successful in spite of that policy when they were so heavily involved in establishing it.

Conspiracy? Who knows, but what I know that in a competitive world, I see no obvious reason why a major economic power like Germany wouldn't use the huge influence it has clearly enjoyed in Europe for decades, to suit its own needs and ambitions first and foremost. Perhaps you could explain why you seem to find that notion so outlandish.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

By imposing the same rules on the rest of the EU as they have in their own country, they level out some of the playing field as far as competition is concerned. If competitors can have cheaper rules and regulations then they are at an advantage. Eg China & India vs the West.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Of course they would but there are other large economic powers within the EU, such as France, which should provide more of a balance. Thus it was never designed to favour Germany alone. The UK can be a more powerful counter-weight in the EU itself as well but we never seem quite as engaged. Each country is out for themselves and influence is gained via politicking and deal making.

I object to you saying I find the notion of Germany putting itself first 'outlandish'. I have said that is what they have been doing repeatedly in my last few posts. What I objected too has the comparisons with Nazi Germany which others have made.

I was also pointing out that in the current situation Germany are simply protecting themselves from the fallout occurring all over the Eurozone.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Clearly we both agree that the Germans are acting to suit themselves first and foremost and have done quite nicely thank you. As major architects of the EU policy under which they've benefitted it can't be argued that their success is co-incidental to it. They'd never have signed up to conditions which would hinder German progress would they.

My contention is that the development of the EU and the economic straightjacket AKA the Eurozone has allowed Germany to prosper at the expense of the needs of other nations in the south particularly. Furthermore they'd be quite happen for things to continue in this vein hence their desire to keep the Eurozone intact but with strings understandably attached to limit German exposure.

I don't find this at all surprising but you went down the route of arguing that memories of WWII somehow accounted for views like mine and that there was no evidence that the Germans had any desire to increase their domination of Europe, financially or politically. Forgive me but that rather sounds like you deemed my assessment outlandish and you have yet to explain why the Germans wouldn't rather like to extend their domination of Europe. They clearly haven't engineered the crisis and there are risks to Germany but to think that they (or any other country in a similar situation) wouldn't use the opportunity it provides to try to further their own aims would be naive.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Putting aside everything else, I went down the route of WW2 because other members had made the comparison. I don't think this situation is remotely comparable however much we disagree about the rest of it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I don't think what's going on today is comparable to Nazism either for what that's worth. However that doesn't rule out a German desire to 'run' Europe and I don't think we should overlook what's been going on for years and the resentment that's now building in Europe now either. There are huge potential dangers ahead for us all.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Britain should engage with the EU and provide more opposition. If Germany are really causing resentment then that might be our chance. They can only get their way if they have some leverage and they don't have much against the larger countries, Greece maybe but what are they going to do?

I really don't think there is a danger there. It's just normal politicking at the moment German strength seems to be their ability to bail everyone out. This is causing resentment in Germany and making it difficult for their Government, hence the pressure on Greece.

Germany don't want to run Europe. They just want other governments to do deals that are advantages to them. As we all do. They will find out like the rest of us that it's not that easy to do.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

We are where we are and the EU won't accept our influence unless we're part of the Eurozone which we clearly don't want to be. Are you saying we should join the Euro in order to bring it down?

What evidence do you have that Germany don't want to 'run' Europe? Their massive influence in Europe has brought them huge benefits, why wouldn't they want more? If they're having nightmares about how much influence they have, why not just stop influencing policy? Why wouldn't they want more control over the likes of Greece (which you've criticised for not running their affairs properly) and therby lessen the risk to Germany eh? Why wouldn't they then want to have more control over countries like Portugal and Spain which pose even greater risks to Germany? That'd be stupid wouldn't it?

Anyway, they're doing it already aren't they by pulling the strings when it comes to the Greek bailout and I really don't understand how you can accept that they're doing it in Germany's interests but at the same time claim they don't want to have more control in Europe given the much larger risks to Germany via Spain and Italy. :confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I was talking about the EU. You said 'Europe', I presume you meant the whole thing.

I can't prove they don't want to run Europe. It seems to be that since you're making the assertion it's up to you to prove it. I can't prove they don't. That would be impossible.

Why would that be stupid? That's the point I was making. Big difference between having conditions attached to bailout money and 'controlling' a country. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the Germans to demand the Greeks balance their budget before giving them money, why bother otherwise? You would be throwing away money.

They are only giving the bailouts because otherwise they would be in trouble themselves. Germany are only doing what they are forced too as a result of the current circumstances. It's not evidence that they want to run Europe, that implies are far greater control than in evident so far.

I am saying that German actions so far are evidence of a country protecting their economy from further damage, not evidence of a country that otherwise desires greater control on the internal affairs of a country. I think 'run' Europe is a very broad definition and one Germany certainly cannot do. Would they like to favour their own economy? Of course, but they will face opposition from other countries as we all jockey for leverage and influence. France and the UK would do the same. We could easily be having this conversation about France now, if their economy had been stronger over the last few years.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Right then to recap - now you've moved away from the notion that anyone who dares mention Germany is dredging up WWII, we agree that the Germans are looking after their own interests as any other countries would do. We agree that they're at the heart of Europe. We agree that their economy has done very well nicely out of the EU and Eurozone and it's undeniable that's because they've had such influence in forming the policies which have enabled their economy to prosper at the expense of certain other countries. We agree that they are exercising more control over bailout funds since it's largely German money at stake.

We only seem to differ on the rationale. My opinion is that the Germans have always had a longer term view and have steered EU policy in a direction which suits their economy as a means by which to further their ambitions, not as a means by which to keep Greeks employed. I feel that they will continue on this path, using the weakness of other nations as a lever through which to secure yet more political control within Europe, thereby effectively ruinning the show in actuality if not in name. You have poured scorn aplenty on any such notion, using the old"memories of WWII" argument to try to rubbish that view.

Neither you or can say for sure what the Germans' long term aim is but what you can't deny is that Germany is effectively running the show already and if that wasn't by design then it's a very happy accident for them isn't it. The fact that they didn't engineer or create the crisis we're in doesn't mean that it can't be used to their further long term benefit even if that 'only' means having more political control in 'problem countries' whose internal policies (in conjunction with the realities of the one size fits all Eurozone straightjacket) have created serious issues for the entire EU.

Clearly the Germans see their future at the heart of Europe and aren't about to leave anytime soon so until you can come up with a convicning reason why they wouldn't want more control of the whole shebang to better secure German interests, I'll be sticking to my view and it has nothing to do with WWII.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well Germany at the moment is the only one with the money and confidence to anything, it's no surprise at this point.

Germany actually seems scared to take control of Europe, it's a poisoned chalice. They are opposing eurobonds and I don't expect them to agree to the massive centralisations some people are suggesting.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It's one thing to want the best for your own country, but it's another when you plan to achieve it at the expense of, and control of, your 'friends' in the EU. This was going on long before the introduction of the Euro, never mind the current Euro Crisis.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Oh the love of...I was replying to that exact scenario.

It's clearly something people have believed. I have not moved away from opposing that because it's stupid. I have actually engaged fairly with your posts and discussed why I do not think Germany are trying to control Europe.


Happy accident? How is this situation in their interests? They are simply attaching conditions to their bailout money to ensure they don't need bailouts to come. I don't see how giving money to failing European countries is good for them. They aren't getting anything out of it other than protecting the single currency that they depend on.

Where in my response to your recent arguments have I said you were motivated by WW2. Show me. When I have been replying to your posts and not the ones that actually did mention WW2 made by others I have been discussing the current situation and why I don't see any evidence of a desire for Germany to run Europe.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Do I need a tin hat to participate in this thread or should it be a tin foil hat?;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

good time to buy polaris golf home;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...is-homes-crash

Was originally 200,000 euros now struggling sell for 60,000 euros.

I see branson calling for investment for small medium business. You could not argue against his call either.

We need now investment programme. Would go as far saying we need to go beyond london. We need to look to get jobs and prosperity to northern towns. they decimated been underfunded by central government for years.

If the government aint careful not prepared to invest further it will become serious tinderpot scenerio. Wonder if those towns if possible could become militant by witholding taxes spend it in there own towns. There few towns where the government must raise quite bit tax revenues from major businesses like ports/oil/chemical. Those towns have had poor investment from government despite having major businesses which raise significant taxes. If this re-invested or proportion raised towns would become prosperious.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...est-businesses

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think you are letting your up imagination run riot, mertle - try and think that hypothesis through, eh, and the implications.

What about income tax, NI, and VAT - would they withhold that, and how?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

which means its impossible to do fair enough.

I know there lot ressentment that what taxation in certain towns raised in they not getting fair deal back.

Think this why the anti london feeling coming from.

Which questions should we change how government funding done.

Say set % raised goes back in counties/towns where it came from the rest goes into national purse to deal national issues.

This means prosperity evened out more we then see better programme where money gets better used.

sure this would aid to close north south devide and social mobilty

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I thought it was taxes from London and South East that was 'propping up' the likes of the North etc. It is the South that should feel hard done by.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

nope london and south east grew due to migration and stavation of investment in industrial north.

Old article 2004 warned this was issue which was ignored.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-6166410.html

We need to invest back in these towns to grow the economy.

We then will see the housing shortage be eradicated as that the real reason for housing issue too much population in one small part of the country.

Would say 60% population england live in one area spread it more we have less issue such water shortages.

We must be one most imbalanced countries in europe.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That's not what that article states - 'unusual' interpretation on your part....

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Ahem, the credibility of that article got put to one side for me at this point.

Remind me how the economy of Dublin and the ROI is doing right now, you know the one in the euro zone, going through austerity measures and having had to bail out its financial sector.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Its example london south east sucking the life out the country by crushing the north.

Not the only one with the views we need to distribute more money. We cant continue with this everything has to be centralised.

It will harm OUR recovery if we dont sort out social mobility or the underfunding to northern towns.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...t-capital.html

The fact that region london way too expensive this sucking the life out our economy. When you consider housing nearly double on average shows massive issue.

Unless we get government accept there is issues with this thinking then we can start solving the issue.

The High speed 2 has one objective get londoners living outside london living further away so they commute into london.

That maybe solution for london and south east its not solution for other parts the country. An expensive vanity which we could use money to revigorate business investment into towns create jobs.

Its like everything north birmingham is forgotten land.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

HS2 is to benefit Birmingham and north of there. I used to commute from Northampton to London and there is no way, even with faster trains, of commuting from Birmingham. Each weekday, I had to get up at 5am and not get home until after 8pm.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Please show me where it says, in the Indy 2004 article, that the south-east is sucking the life out off / crushing the rest of the country, please?

I can't find that bit - the only thing I can find remotely similar is Doesn't say anything about 'crushing', rather accentuates opportunities for other areas of the UK - but I don't suppose that suppoerts your proposition, so gets 'overlooked'.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Meanwhile back in Euroland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18227230

Not sure the Greeks are very happy bunnies right now.

...and in other news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18226128

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Article about pervasive tax evasion in Greece in the New Yorker magazine

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Oh yes, Greek tax avoidance and/or evasion is legend - they tried to get it accepted as a qualifying 'sport' for the Athens Olympics apparently... :D What's not so legend is leading figures in the global political and financial hierarchy pointing it out publicly in no uncertain terms.

Makes you wonder who it was amongst the Eurocrats who thought admitting Greece into the EU and then the Eurozone was a good idea???? :confused: :confused:

Don't suppose anyone will admit to or be accountable for that though... :rolleyes:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Just think of all the recently joined countries in the EU that could be considered worse than Greece. What is going to stop them from going on a spending spree?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They didn't join the Euro did they? They won't really care if they are in the EU as long as they don't share the same currency. We would find it harder to get a bailout from the Eurozone than Greece did.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Cyprus, Estonia, Malta, Slovakia, and Slovenia? With Bulgaria, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, and Romania yet to join at some point in the future.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

They are obliged to work towards Euro membership as a condition of joining the EU. however I suspect the convergence criteria might be insisted upon a little more strictly in future than when Greece was shooed in.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Countries like Cyprus, Estonia, and Slovenia are already in the Eurozone.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes, the rush to get get countries to join the 'club' was considerable and it doesn't appear to have ceased although the current crisis is certainly focussing a few minds on the harsh realities of membership.

God only knows what the 'thinking' and oversight was. :confused: Seems to me the tests applied to the likes of Greece were about as robust as those which were used in self certification mortgages and with the same result - albeit on a larger scale...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18261922

:shocked:

I'm probably missing something here but are the Eurocrats living in cloud cuckoo land?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes, they are. But it seems the Irish have been taken in by the appalling propaganda being spewed out by the 'yes' campaign (which consists of almost the entire political class in Ireland). The polls suggest they're going to go along with it. Mind you, they know from tedious previous experience that there's little point voting no when all that happens is they get asked to vote again six months later and told to deliver the correct answer this time.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It does seem a bit counter-productive to fine countries that are already in debt with large deficits.

It's equivalent to banks charging clients for exceeding their overdrafts when they have insufficient income in their accounts.

A far better idea would be for the IMF and ECB to come up with options which the countries currently are not using to reduce deficits.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18318252

The bailout snowball appears to be gathering yet more momentum. Still it's relative small change really I suppose. :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Roffle :D

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------

I understand that the interdependencies are such that if Greece goes down, Cyprus is going to go down with it.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Build now pay later...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18277681

Sound familiar?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

depends what you spend it on if its to improve production then it earns country money later.

Watched vid from economist.

He said whats happened is money raised is been used as bad credit by banks.

We raised loans for consumption, property, hedge funds and speculation. This all bad for the economy. We need to raise it for production purposes to drive jobs creation things which then sold on improve uks GDP.

If the whole europe embarks on this then we will recover for sure.

Our last quantitive easing ended up in markets BOE thinking another stimulas why the first failed. Merve the swerve is useless needs to direct the money in right areas.

He talks alot sense maybe we should ask him to be our chancellor replace osbourne. Suprised how we given 97% control money to private banks without strings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7qOu...hannel&list=UL

Another pet hate for me is give private firms government money without strings. Surely we should get something back.

http://www.centro.org.uk/newsroom/Pr...ease27754.aspx

In towns up and down country they getting new buses from government even places getting new bus stations. Yet this free money nothing in return. Surely 1% ownership or shares in return.

Crazy we wonder why business use the government as a cash cow bemoan they cant afford this and that then pocket profits.

Great to see some news investment but they should ask for something back in return. Maybe loan repayment plan etc.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Club Med Euro-states would not have had access to funds at such low rates of interest had they retained their own currencies, and with good reason - excessive spending on cultural/political vanity projects will destroy Spain as surely as tax-dodging and a bloated public sector has destroyed Greece.

Grexit isn't the calamity that will finally kill the Euro, but Spexit most certainly will. It is *going* to happen. Le Grand Projet is holed beneath the waterline with too many of its watertight compartments compromised. The sooner they deploy the lifeboats the more manageable the consequences will be. Sadly, idiots like Barroso still have their hands clapped over their ears shouting "More Europe! More Europe!" as if it were business as usual.