Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Hmmmm....

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35137144-post597.html

I wonder if Flyboy will now reconsider his position on this.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Agreed, though my point was that he is probably more disabled when it suits his purpose.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

But these images look a bit different to the one we saw in the video. I agree the photographs look as though these officers are taking some care in handling Mr McIntyre; no so much the ones from the video though.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No prizes for guessing which of those media you side with hey?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

depends which incident they were photos of ,don't forget he claims to have been dragged out of his wheel chair twice ,also camera angle will make it look different

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

From the text in the link

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It certainly seems as though he is very passionate about the causes he supports and is using a tool to his advantage. Who amongst us, if in similar circumstances, wouldn't? I wonder how many of you would just sit by and let a goverment, of any nation, ride roughshod over its people, without trying their best to prevent it, given the opportunities available to them.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

"ride roughshod over it's people"

for heaven's sake, it's Student Fees - it's not as if they were trying to introduce compulsory ID cards or start a War in Iraq or something.....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I am not arguing against that fact. I was wondering if the police officers used a different tactic in the later video.

---------- Post added at 18:53 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------

Would support him if it had been about that?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oh that's alright then... :erm:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

There's a difference between "wondering" and being blinkered in total support of the proposition, imho.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's okay, you're welcome. :)

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Sorry Hugh, but I am unclear about what you are disagreeing me here. I we agreed that the pictures were not of the later incident in the evening, I was just wondering why the police did not appear to use the same tactics then.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Are they taking the ****?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-fees-protests

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Is that a parody? :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

would other disabled people use their disability in the way he is ? and does that make it right ....i doubt it ,i personally find it distasteful ,maybe someone with a disability or a disabled relative would care to comment on that as that is my opinion

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I believe that anyone who sets out to "change the world," will use any opportunity which presents itself. If Flyboy11 wanted to use his disabilities to further a cause that he felt justifed in standing up for, I don't think I could stand in his way. I may be apprehensive and anxious about his well being, but he is very much his own person and niether he nor I will allow anyone take that way from him.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What if he used his disability to deliberately try to blacken the name of the Police? Would you still be unable to stand in his way?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Of course I would be unable to stand in his way. What would you expect me to do; lock him and chain him down. If any of his actions were unjustifed, I woud not very happy with him at all, but how would you expect me to stop him? I would hope that he would always conduct himself in an honourable fashion, but at the end of the day, his life is his own. Would you ask the same of Mr McIntyre's parents?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I eagerly await the answer ,as i was going to ask the same question

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yeah I'd love to. OK let me ask you another way. Would you be in favour of his actions?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

18 pages and we are now going in circles.:rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I think before we go any further in this line of debate we should draw a distinction between garnering sympathy for a cause lets say blindness ,many people ,including a past home secratary have used there blindness to campaigne or raise funds, perfectly proper and correct imo .But this individual is imo using his disability to obstruct the police ,place them in danger and slander their good name .There is a big difference between the two

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Unfortunatley we don't seem to have a choice but to listen to the continued exploits of the new super hero "Wheel chair man" and his ability to use his disability to the best advantage , As long as that advantage paints the police in a bad light.

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:18 ----------

Excellent post Sir :clap:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It would depend on how he sees his actions justifying the ends. I wouldn't be happy with him putting himself in harms way, what parent wouldn't, I most certainly would not be happy with him attempting to lie or to deceive, regardless of the methods he uses. But there would be nothing I could do to stop him.

---------- Post added at 20:39 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

A good point, but where do we make the distinction between what is and what isn't justified? Whilst I agree, he should not lie or deceive to the extent to which you are suggesting he is, there may be times when using his attributes come in handy when bringing home a justified point.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I rather think you answered your own question there;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Is there no justification for lying or deceiving, ever?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

if i said yes i would be lying ,if i said no i would be decieving ;)


that is a moral dilemma for a different thread

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

But we are being specific here, rather than debating a general philosophical point.

If Jody has in fact lied, and used his disability as a buttress to support that lie, he weakens the support for any valid case in the future (imho).

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That would depend on what the future case was about, I suppose. I can't really see what his bearing his disabilty would have, if he has lied, he has lied.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

erm, the "bearing" is that which I posted - he has used his disability to support his allegations.... (and he still hasn't lodged a complaint, four days later).

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And would that be because he is milking all the attention that he seems to have generated from a video that would not stand up in court.

If it is discovered he has used his disability as a means to show the police in a bad light then words fail me as to what i think of him, But i am sure people would have there own versions of those words but mine are unprintable without repercussions from the mods ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Indeed.

After reading some of his blog he comes across as someone that sticks his nose in where is is not needed to write a blog. Put himself in harms way to make a good film. Hark on about being disabled but be able to hike many flights of stairs whilst some other guy hauls the wheelchair.

What an asshole.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oh THAT bearing (he must have missed that bit).... :rofl:

Anyway, it always amazes me how the usual suspects happily criticise every action the authorities take, no matter what the circumstances or provocation but just can't bring themselves to condemn the reckless and unacceptable actions of those causing the trouble. Somehow they're entitled to use the 'tools' at their disposal, however cynically or dishonestly and no matter what the repercussions. I think it's called hypocrisy and double standards......

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You know i think this fits what happened completley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVtTBmokGA

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I can walk not very well and not very far but i can and i do not have a wheelchair so for him to be able to go up 18 flights of stairs says to me he is nowhere near as disabled as he is making out and use's that for his own agenda. As for his actions on the day sorry i think he was purely out to try and show the police in as bad a light as he could and to a point he has succeeded and i think he should either make an official coplaint or shut up. Flyboy i notice your yet again failing to answer certain posts whilst constantly banging on about other's why are you so hung up on a lib dem pledge when you never cared about promises from labour that they broke because out of the two parties neither one i have much love for labour to me are by far the worst offender yet you never had a problem with them.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Hopefully someone from the DWP saw him..

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes it'll be interesting to see if he's exaggerated his disability.

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

:tu:

Yes, sometimes silence speaks volumes doesn't it.....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:tu:

and you expected something else? like answering or indeed reading, all posts in the discussion.

Careful though, or a whinging we will go.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

While i totally agree with you Stuart and hope if he is getting benefit that is looked at very carefully the downside is because of people like him we all get tarred with his brush so i have that little bit more reason to dislike him. Truth is the whole student protest shouldn't have been called a protest against fee's because none of them were that bothered when they were first bought in breaking a promise at that time. This was about political aspects because now a nasty tory government\coalition leader has to come in and sort out the mess left by the previous genius's that instilled in everyone the belief that certain things were indeed a right rather then a privilege.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Without wanting to wander off topic... here goes... ;)

Anyone looked at his blog? I spent an unspecified amount of time at work this afternoon whilst i was not on specified jobs...

I stand by my original statement.

What an asshole.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

what is the world coming to?-students who won't stand to attention /don't polish their boots and shine their buttons and now a bloke in a wheelchair who thinks he has the same rights as every one else :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Would be nice if he realised he has the same RESPONSIBILITIES as everyone else.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No one is saying students have to toe some massively high standard line all the majority are saying is don't go around trashing things supposedly in protest against something or how about being students they stop for five minutes and realise they are being used by people with other agenda's. As for "now a bloke in a wheelchair" which he seems to be need as it suits him and the image he presents affects many more people then just him as though there isn't enough dislike for benefit as it is we have this idiot handing out ammo by the bucket so when your disabled and he is screwing you over then you come back and tell us all about it Papa.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

He does. And having same rights means he also isn't exempt from being dealt with by the police when required. :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

This is what the police have to say about the student protestors and the public in general:
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com...for-christmas/

Some of the comments made (by those we pay to protect us) are quite despicable. Usernames like "maniac cop", "Serpico" and "Rambo" should be no surprise and give some insight into what is going on in their minds.

It seems they don't want anyone protesting, even if it is peaceful. But if protestors do exercise their democratic right to protest, they want to make the experience so unpleasant for them that they'll think twice before demonstrating again. The police seem to see it as an "us vs them" issue, which I find rather disgusting if I can be quite honest.
A rather sobering reminder of what this country is turning into.

As for Jody McKintyre, the guy has cerebral palsy FFS ! He can't wheel himself, he has to be pushed around, so if he was rolling towards the police it was because he was being pushed. They pulled him our of his chair because of something he said, end of. Derek, he was no threat to anyone, and the fact that the officer(s) in question haven't been yet been sacked (let alone suspended) is shambolic !
The adage "The Law: Unto Themselves", springs to mind.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:rolleyes:

So i take it you have made up your mind about SOME of the people behind the usernames on here even thou you have never met them in person. Your good you are.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Feeling green today Sirius? Go get some fresh air, it might help...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No one (well I don't) doubts the guy has CP, however, he is capable (at times) of quite a lot of mobility - as he states in his blog (referred to in this thread previously) Re adages - "With rights, come responsibilities"

btw, Serpico was a policeman who fought against internal corruption, and Rambo was someone who fought back after being victimised by unthinking police who were acting on stereotypes - thought you might have thought that was a good thing....;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Thats what i look like when i am mad and not had enough coffee. :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

My opinion is based on their comments, not the usernames per se. However, I have noticed their usernames do seem to reflect their comments. There are plenty of blogs on that site, search around and read through if you have spare time - lots to read through though !

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And of course, all the activists' blogs are about peace, love and understanding.......

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Is that true, or are you being satirical?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Facts are always helpful when putting forward a proposition....

Serpico First Blood That's the problem with assumptions and stereotypes - if you are not careful, you may get beyatch-slapped with them......;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

We don't pay the activist to protest though. The police are paid to do one thing, they should just do it and always remember that they are paid to serve the public. They shouldn't be posting about cracking open peoples skulls at the next demo, or begging for more (dangerous) weapons to use against demonstrators.
If people can't exercise their democratic right to protest, they will get angry and resort to other forms.

A million peacefully marched in Hyde park protesting the Iraq invasion, and what did it achieve? It made a statement, but unfortunately noone at the top was listening as they'd already made their minds up. This is supposed to be a democracy, but it doesn't seem like it sometimes.

Back in 1997, I attended two very large student demos protesting the introduction of tuition fees by the Labour governement. The first was in Edinburgh, the second in London. There were thousands of students at the London demo, the centre of London was at a standstill for most of the day. At the University union on Malet street we waited in anticipation for the 6 o'clock news. 4 second clip, and that was it. The boos could probably be hard as far away as regeant stree !
Everyone was shocked, how could this only get a 4 second clip? The whole thing was clearly being hushed up, but had their been any violence then the whole nation would've been talking about it.
I can't count the number of times someone on the "t'intanet" has said they were fully behind the students up until they were violent. Er...no - because you wouldn't have even known about it had it not been for the violence.
Sad, but mostly true. I've even come across a number of comments criticising students saying "Funny how they never bothered protesting when the Labour government introduced tuition fees in the first place :rolleyes: "
You couldn't make it up.

As for the recent protests, its well known that the protest was hijacked (as will the next) by a number of anarchist groups such as the Whitechapel Anarchist Group, Student Bloc, the Anarchist Federation and several others. It was recently reported that some anarchists travelled from as far away as Argentina, just for a ruck.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The same Jodie McIntyre who freely admits was amongst a bunch of numpties on the roof. Off which one of those numpties threw a fire extinguisher off the roof at the police below. When you think that some of these hooligans will one day be doctors and surgeons. The mind boggles. :shocked:

@ sparkle

So you don't mind that these student hooligans have cost the tax payer millions because of the damage they have done to public property. Because you can say it was hijacked but there seemed to have been a lot of hijackers if that's the case and very few students

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What in good heavens are you talking about? I was referring to the usernames (police) on the inspectorgadget website !
From your earlier comment, I assumed you knew them personally and they were samaritans, which was why I was asking if it was true !
Thanks for that Hugh, but give me a few minutes to clean the coffee off my keyboard :D
Yes I've seen the films though, first blood was my favourite of the lot.
The best line was "If you send that many men just remember one thing."
"What?"
"A good supply of body bags !"

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

But he couldn't have - we have just been told that

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So is there two of them ??? :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I read that the clean up bill for the last demo was £50K, might have been daily mail so I can't vouch for it. If it is in the millions, I reckon it's a small price to pay in the greater scheme of things. I think the cost due to the lack of policing elsewhere in the country is probably higher. Demonstrators are saying that if the police hadn't been there, there wouldn't have been any violence. From the videos I've seen on the net, they police did seem to be heavy handed before it all kicked off.

By the way gents, the next demo is planned for the 29th January.
It might be the big one.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Plenty of time for the police to ensure they have the means to protect PUBLIC property by using a different method other than kettling. That's what the hooligans want according to the organisers so that's what they will get i hope. ;).

So do you mind your taxes " i assume you pay taxes" being wasted protecting the public from this bunch of hooligans.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I agree that kettling is far from ideal. As an engineer indeed I do pay taxes. I began my studies at uni in 1997, which incidentally was the last year before tuition fees were introduced - fortunate for me.
Last week I did a rough estimate of how much tax I've paid since graduating uni, and I reckon I've easily paid in excess of £200K to the treasury. Thats from all revenue - salary, fuel duty, VAT, alcohol, cigs, etc.

This is what annoys me and why I'm so vocal on this issue:
Almost everything we need we have to pay on top. Need transport? You need to buy a car and road tax for the roads.
Need water/electricity/gas/food ? Well thats on top, and don't forget VAT. Council tax, national insurance too.
You get the picture.

Now, where on earth has my £200K gone? The only thing I have to show for it is my degree, which I've paid back many many times over *just in the last 9 years*.
I can just imagine how I would feel if I'd studied under the new system, £40K student debt, AND the tax??? Not by the hair on my chiny chin chin...

I do accept that we need policing, emergency services, (some) welfare and the NHS. Indeed we do need a military in the current climate. But, come on ! The tax we pay is a complete joke. In my view the money has already been paid, the government has just squandered the lot of it.
It has been said that a government (any government) will expand to fill the void created by the tax payer. How true that is. We (the tax payer) have been getting ripped off for so long that the government has become acutely efficient at throwing away our money. The whole system needs to be changed. I'm furious that I have to pay more than 80% tax on fuel, but when I shout about it and suggest serious protest, noone it seems is with me.

For the reasons outlined above, I don't buy the whole "Why should the working man who didn't go to uni fund someone elses education?"

As for the cost to the taxpayer from the hooligans at the London demo, I think we should be screaming about where our £trillions have gone not the cost to fix some broken windows and clean up some graffiti.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Excellent post

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Thank you good Sir :tu:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

A nice post, sadly there are many quite addicted to the mass of public services supplied by big government and big government means big taxation even without wastage.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I like the way you ignore the fact that the bulk of those complaints were about possible injuries to the Police officers, and from people like "Tony Stamp".

You've also ignored the fact there is a marked difference between excersing your democratic right to protest and rioting (which is what actually happened).

He had CP, yet can make it up 18 flights of stairs when he wants.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Thats not the whole story. The overwhelming majority of protesters agree that everything was peaceful until the kettle started. Then the violent anarchists fought their way out early on and ended up on Oxford St (iirc), and it was mostly just the peaceful students who were kettled in, some until as late as 1 am. The kettling tactic seems to have become standard practise.
They did this so they could parade in front of the media that this is what happens when protestors riot, when in actual fact everyone knew the violent protestors were long gone. It was just spin, that's my understanding of it anyway.
At one of the kettles (can't recall if it was the last 9th Dec demo or the previous one in Nov.) people were fainting standing up, they were packed in so tight for hours on end.

I think overall, I do agree with the spirit of your point of view. And in an ideal world I'd agree 100%. However, given the futility I've witnessed in demonstrations in recent years - I think there is a case that can be made in FAVOUR of some violence. 10 years ago I'd never have imagined that one day I'd take such a stance. I don't expect many (if anyone) here to agree with such an extreme view, but I'm happy to discuss.
However, the Charlie Gilmour chap swinging from the cenotaph in the same photo frame as "Our Glorious Dead" was not on, that stupid child. Same goes for urinating on the Churchill monument. It was a PR disaster, and we all know the Daily Mail just soils itself in excitement over such things.

"One of the greatest sins of age is to forget the trials of youth."
We've all done stupid things in our adolescence that we wish we hadn't and I think those kids just got caught up in the moment. Though that does not excuse their actions. On the other hand, swinging from the cenotaph certainly takes the biscuit in the list of stupid things one just might later regret.


You'll recall the anti-war demonstration in London, when over a million marched. Now I'll ask you this. What if we could go back in time and change it it to 750,000 peaceful protestors, and say 250,000 anarchists ?
After the fires had been put out, and the cost of the devastation had been counted, could you imagine the government having the metal to still go ahead with that war ?
I could be wrong here, but I think maybe the government would be so afraid of what might happen if then went along with that war, that they would see little other option than to say to the Americans "Sorry guys, Her Majesty's gov would really like to help you, but we've got serious civil unrest, we hope you understand."
An old adage springs to mind: A government that fears its people is a good government.
Unfortunately for us, our government lost that fear a very long time ago.

He's not paralysed, he has CP. For someone with CP as progressed as his, he's proud of the fact that he can overcome challenges when he has to.
This reminds me of that scene from Scary Movie 2, where the paralysed guy seems to refuse to acknowledge the fact that he's paralysed. Specifically, the scene where he's at the bottom of the stairs, the girl standing near him has a gun, and he repeatedly shouts "Cover me!", as he slides out of his wheelchair and proceeds to crawl up the stairs. He makes it about 5 feet then slides back down again, presumably in agony but he still won't give up...
I can just imagine Jody, on all fours, trying to *climb* up 18 flights of stairs, like a big man crab. Not the same as you or I running up 18 flights, is it?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And others who like you were not there will imagine him walking up the stairs just like he walked on to the stage at one of the events he attended.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't much care if he is paralysed or not ,that prat is just instigating violence with his pathetic blogs ,he fully supports the violence and is using his disability to cast the police in a bad light .
If he is that bothered about this cause then he should target the people who are spoiling the demonstrations with violence and ask them to stop, the fact that he hasn't tells me that he thinks the violence is ok.
I have left an open invitation for him or anyone else who supports him on his website to come on this forum and debate the issue ,i think he is scared that his arguments won't stand up to reasoned debate so hasn't accepted the offer

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Sorry, but I cannot agree with that. Violence is *never* justified. Personally, I don't think the people who started the violence were in it for anything but the chance to give someone a kicking (I would say "Police", but, tbh, I doubt they were that fussy). Also, if what you say is correct, they ran as soon as the police started to respond. That isn't the action of someone who truly believes in the the protest. That is cowardice.

You missed my point (which, tbh, I thought was quite simple). It was that he was able to overcome his disability when he wanted to climb 18 flights of stairs (something which I freely give respect to: He did something for his beliefs I would have trouble doing, and I am not Wheelchair bound). Oddly, however, he could not get out of the chair when asked to do so by the Police.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I haven't read much of his blogs, its been on my "to do" list for a little while. I'll go have a read soon to find out what the fuss is about.

martyh, do you think that any number of peaceful protests by the students and activists, would have any real hope of stopping the tuition fees rise?
I'm not being farcical, I'm genuinely asking.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I actually agree with what you are saying here. I think for too long peaceful protests go unheard and the student demonstrations we have seen would not have got the same coverage if they were just marches.

I have often wondered why protestors in the UK have shown so miuch restraint whilst those in charge continuously do things against the views a large perecentage of the public.

I don't agree with the approach the goverment has taken regarding university fees and I do think that if the marches hadn't been as violent as they are, we would not have heard much about student fees (the finer detail) as much as we've heard now.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 ----------


To be honest though I don't think any number of violent problems will stop tuition fees rising. Some might then ask whats the point of a violent prtest, but in my opinion that does show how angry people actually are.

I also do not agree with the media and govt saying that a lot of these marches have been hijacked by non students. I think that a lot of the violent protestors are genuine students.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The public are the only people who can force the government to reconsider their position. As such, the students need the public on their side to initiate any change. This is not going to happen if the public think that students are a bunch of rioting, violent yobs.

You can argue that the media are presenting them as such, and I would agree. They are. However, if no students were doing stuff like this, there would be nothing for the media to hype.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What about the poll tax riots? The D-Day landings? The toppling of Mussolini? The English civil war?
All done by force, all used violence. Shall I cite more examples?

There is a time and a place for everything, including violence. I've seen kids get bullied for years and years, when a single well placed act of violence would easily have prevented it.

I guess the crux of the matter is whether or not violence has any place in the recent student protests. I think the students should be aware of the PR war being fought, and perhaps some actions should be avoided to prevent advertising themselves as a bunch of hoods.

I got your point, however I'm unsure if you got mine.
Jody getting out of his wheelchair, is comparable to you climbing a drain pipe. Surely you are not seriously suggesting that he should have got out of his wheelchair, are you? Yes he can do it, but that requires significant effort, otherwise he wouldn't be in a wheelchair.
If so, then what would he have then done, gone for a stoll? No, he can't stand for any length of time and would have ended up on the pavement.

If Jody had been seriously injured as a result of him walking, the police would have simply said "Well, he's the one who got out of his chair - considering he has CP, kind of silly of him don't you think?"

If I can be quite honest, I think you are clutching at straws trying to make excuses for the police in that instance, and in essence you are attempting to defend in morally reprehensible.
They pulled him out of his chair, not once but twice. The first time he was also hit with a baton (not on video, but there were witnesses). They could have wheeled him around, but instead they dragged him across the pavement. Real tough guys, letting a disabled guy know "who's in charge".

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

This may come as a shock, but I actually agree with most of what you have posted - excellent post.

However, the point I do not agree with is the use of violence - ymmv

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Sorry but the holigans have no hope of changing what has been passed by parliament for at least the next couple of years, No amount of fighting and smashing of public property by hooligan students will change it because the Government will dig in harder. Soon if the holigans keep at it you will see plastic bullets, tear gas and water cannon used instead of kettling.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Should have been used the first time of asking.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Indeed it should.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I wonder that all the time. I think we as a nation have gotten into the habit of just accepting the status quo. We love to moan, but when it gets serious most people would rather just change the subject than get involved. Compared to the French or the Greeks, British public are quite docile - especially considering that we're getting ripped off at every avenue. However, I think people are starting to wake up. With each passing year, I've noticed a shift in general opinion of the government - and it isn't for the better. Politicians fiddling their expenses, Bank bailouts, credit crunch, inflated property prices - people have had enough.

I agree, but the students have got a serious problem. As already mentioned, the PR hasn't been good. There are a lot of people out there who dislike students for one reason or another. And they've just come right out of the woodwork recently. You've heard it all before - students only in class for 3 lectures a week, don't get out of bed until 3 pm, spend all their money on booze, studying useless mickey mouse degrees (underwater basketweaving for instance), etc. Also, many people just don't like the fact that a youngster can come in with their piece of paper degree and earn more than them, or also happens to be their boss. The reasons are many and varied.

I think the students need to *somehow* get the working class on their side, and I think that fundamentally, we are on the same side. We are all fed up with politicians lying or doing whatever it takes to trick the public into voting for them. Once in power they do as they please, without fear of being held to account from the public. We are getting the raw end of the stick. Politians do not represent us.

If there were a public referendum tomorrow on what needs to change, then:

1. We'd be out of the EU and the eastern europeans would be sent home.
2. Most of the MP's would be sacked
3. Speed cameras would only be placed outside schools
4. Harriet Harman would be crucified
5. MP's caught fiddling their expensese would be held criminally liable
6. Prisons wouldn't be holiday camps. Instead they'd find an island in the northern Hebrides, build a work camp there and stick all the prisoners in it.
7. Force the unemployed to get work.
8. End the elf'n safety culture that is destroying (exporting) our industry by making it less competitive.
9. The "Hook Cleric" would be loaded onto a C-130 Hercules and promptly dumped, via the rear loading door from an altitude of 15,000 ft, into the English channel.
10. Immigration more tightly controlled.

To name just a few.

In my view, the notion that this country is a democracy is the greatest lie the government ever fooled us into believing.
Come election time, it seems the only choice we get is either :dumb, or dumber. Is there really much difference between the parties?
When labour won the election back in 1997, it was quite a shock when they introduced tuition fees. Especially how they promised to invest so much more in education.
The government rules this country in any way it pleases, and now more and more people are seeing it for what it is.

There is a video of Nick Clegg on youtube signing a pledge to oppose any rise in tuition fees. Not only did he go against his promise, but he became the governments chief propaganda minister for the new fees. If that can happen without fear of retribution from the people, then anything can.
How can we have a functioning democracy when noone believes a word politicians say?
People only voted for the lib dems because of their promises, so when they reneged on their promises they become a non-entity.
What Nick Clegg should have done was put principle before career. He should have fought the tuition fee rise tooth and nail, and even (if need be) offer his resignation over the issue.

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

I agree. Also, we might almost be at the stage of petrol bombs being used. One was indeed thrown by one of the 9th Dec protesters (I doubt it was a student though, young teenager). Its on youtube. Other protesters tried to perform a citizens arrest, but an asian gang (presumably he was a part of) rescued the kid.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't think any amount of protesting will change the govs plan ,and nor it should imo .The biggest problem we have is that there are too many people going to university who will never use the degrees they get ,it's just a big party to them ,basically just an extension to school and something to do before they grow up .University education should be a privelidge not a right and should be paid for .In my opinion the government should be approaching future employers to help fund university education ,that way only degrees that are worth something will be taken and only people who are commited will take them

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I agree that sometimes that's the case, however many degrees require more work than a full time job. I don't think it's fair to tar them all with the same brush.

In my opinion, university education is a necessity of society. Everyone benefits from education. Just imagine what life would be like without technology and modern medicine ? It would be like being back in the stone age. In fact, we've always had an equivalent of many of the professions we have today. Professions such as merchants, soldiers, bankers, salesman, etc - even going back thousands of years. The main difference is the education/knowledge base.

I think thats a good idea in priciple, but in practise it could be difficult to put into effect. I think what is more likely to happen, is that we'll be importing more of our talent in the years to come. Other countries are investing more in education, so its inevitable that we'll fall behind.

Back to the discussion of Jody McIntyre, I found this video interesting :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rt-of-comments

He may not be right all the time, but I agree with a lot of what he says. I completely agree with him when he mentions about the government not being held accountable for its actions for 4 years after every election, and about the similarity between the different parties for important issues. Labour introduced fees, the Tories increased them....Very true.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

University education is necessary; universal university education (or anything even approaching it) definitely is not.

When Labour started an ideological drive to get 50% of all young people into university, the universities started dreaming up worthless courses to keep them all busy when they arrived.

We now have vast numbers of people who are highly qualified in nothing much at all, and half the population of Poland repairing our burst pipes. We need to recognise that people are different, their educational needs are different. Achieving equality does not consist in making everybody the same.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

i don't believe i have ,that certainly wasn't the intention .My son is just entering the system and i will make damn sure he will be working as hard as he can

It is a fallacy to think that in order to gain a good job with a good salary you will have to go through the university system .A lot of students are under the misguided belief that gaining a degree is a shortcut to a high paid job ,granted we need professionals that will need to go to a university but it should not be used as an extension to everyone's education ,i repeat my earlier statement ..too many people go to university


I disagree ,it would be quite simple to deduct money from employers who have graduates working for them .A company would have to pay a percentage of the debt whilst that graduate is with the company .if the graduate moves on then the next company picks up the debt

Labour introduced them to enable more people to go to university ,to stop it being so elitist ,the present government increased them because the previous government got us into so much debt paying for the ideals only they thought we needed ,by that i mean ,i am not sure that we needed so many people to go to unuversity in the first place ,they should have concentrated on trades ,apprentiships rather than worthless degrees

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't know what percentage of students fall into that category, but it would be interesting to know. Most students I knew at uni were studying for either a science, business or social science degree. Believe me, we used to rip the p!ss out of the ones doing a social science degree, but I recall that they were a small percentage of students. Couldn't put a number on it though.

Lets just say for arguments sake that 50% of students are studying for worthless degrees. In that case, I think we have only ourselves to blame.
If these students could handle calculus, they wouldn't be studying for a worthless degree. I blame our failing school system, and we are ultimately responsible for that, rather than the students.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I am reminded by this debate on what my brother said after interviewing a number of graduates which was "they still cannot organise a pee up in a brewery, but most of them can spell it". He is an employer quite a large one and there is certainly little respect from him towards many graduates these days. I think we are in serious danger of becoming a snobbish lazy country where things like plumbing, carpentry and suchlike are viewed as being beneath people despite the fact they are high skilled jobs.

Many of these students would probably have been far better off doing something like that then going to uni and doing courses in sod all as many of them are. I am not tarring them all with the same brush there are many worthwhile productive degree's with people studying to get them but there are a hell of a lot of useless one's that will never be any real benefit.

I grew up as i have said before to believe uni was the place for the brightest and best to go on and further their knowledge but that isn't the case now being blunt any idiot can get there waste a few yeras of their life and come out with a bit of paper worth less then a sheet of andrex and labour played a very big part in that.

Social engineering experiments by government are a lousy thing to do never end well and some poor sod has to come along and clear up the mess, well the mess we have now we have a government trying to clear it up.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:clap::clap::clap: my own experience will attest to that Rizzy

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The reason I think it would be difficult to put into practise is because of the additional challenges that would need to be overcome.
For instance, why would a company employ a UK student with a student debt only to have to pay a percentage of the debt, when they could employ a foreign equivalent with no debt?
The other way it could work would be if the company didn't pay it, just deducted 5% of the salary and paid it towards the student debt, but then we're back to the graduate tax.
If companies were to indeed shoulder the cost, then our companies would become less competitive due to the extra expense, and our companies are already struggling to compete. Consider a large corporation that employs tens of thousands of people, rather than fork out a fortune for new recruits - they may be more likely to move operations to China. Like so many are already doing these days.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Not the solution one would really want from the police:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If you're suggesting that he was in that place at that time against his will, you're totally deluded. McIntyre was being pushed by his brother and the pair of them knew exactly what they wanted to achieve.

And his CP is not so severe as to prevent him getting to the top of Millbank Tower during the earlier protest.

"End Of" isn't for you to decide, no matter how emphatic you are. The IPCC is looking at a range of incidents from the day - conveniently this seems to have excused McIntyre from having to follow up his media posturing with hard action.

My take on this is that McIntyre is a tinpot revolutionary that barely has a clue what the word means and went bleating to the left-wing Press as soon as the going got tough.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What; never, ever?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I think most people following this thread are aware of the general context of the discussion Flyboy ... however I suspect we're about to watch you trying to play word games with Stuart. Please, please don't bother, it's very tiresome.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes, of course, that really is the solution, isn't it? :rolleyes: I thought violence was never justified?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

More of Mr McIntyre's wisdom - blog btw, recently means 2003, apparently; and I wonder how he equates that with the fact that Ben Brown won the Bayeux War Correspondent Award for his coverage of the Intifada in Israel (does that make him, in Mr McIntyre's eyes, a supporter of Hamas?).

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

You appear to be using one person's comments against another poster....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

In terms of protests. No.
Beyond that, I will not be drawn into your word games.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes..."totally deluded" is an entirely appropriate choice of words to describe what is clearly your own misunderstanding of what I'd said.

I never said Jody was a hostage taken to the demo against his will.

Can you just confirm whether or not you believe the police acted professionally and measured in their handling of Jody McIntyre ?

If the answer is yes, really?? I cannot understand how anyone can defend their actions, I would've thought most people who consider themselves friends of the police would write the incident off as the actions of rogue elements within the police force. But to actually defend what we clearly see in the footage, I cannot understand. Jody has CP, his life compared to your cushy life is probably rather hellish. He wasn't a threat to anyone at the demo, and if anyone disagrees then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BTW, do you actually believe the IPCC are independent ?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Hugh ... IMO we should leave McIntyre to play to the gallery. He really is an irrelevance. And constantly linking to his blog just helps his drivel earn a better Google rank. ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Okley dokley....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You're feeling very Christmasy aren't ya?
I don't agree with everything Jody says, and quite frankly his rant about disabled access to the tube was a bit ridiculous. However, the guy is only 20 and he is at least standing up for his beliefs. For someone his age and physical disability, he's to be commended for his determination - even if we don't always agree with what he says.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yep. If he wasn't in a wheelchair he'd be cuffed and in a cell rather than escorted to the rear of the police lines with his chair behind him.

Nope. I believe that in some cases they go out of their way to act against cops when its not justified.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Perfectly Christmassy, thanks - but I don't change my opinions with the seasons. ;)

As for standing up for his beliefs, well yes, he is (literally, at Tory HQ, if his own account is to be believed), but fortunately we don't judge what's right or wrong, good or bad based purely on sincerety. He is sincerely deranged in my view, with a far too highly polished sense of self-importance. Even the strapline of his blog should set alarm bells ringing. "One man's journey on the path to revolution". He badly needs to get out from up himself.

His inane dribbling shows he has little understanding of what 'revolution' means, how the BBC is constituted and run, or how war reporting works (embedded or otherwise), just to take a couple of very recent examples. Unfortunately McIntyre has, due to his recent notoriety, decided that the world is desperately interested in everything he has to say, and is pouring forth on a variety of subjects he simply hasn't read enough about to have anything revolutionary to say.