Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

roflcopter !!11one!!

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Well, first off, the Lib Dems do want a referendum on introducing PR!

[They also want: a written constitution, subject to final approval in a referendum; an In/Out referendum the "next time next time a British government signs up for fundamental change in the relationship between the UK and the EU"; and a referendum on joining the Euro if it is ever determined to be economically worthwhile to do so]

Also, going back to earlier mentions of PR by other people: It is important to note that there is not one single basic "PR" system, such as the "party list" system many use as an example, there are many types, with different pros & cons.

The system favoured by the Lib Dems (and by the Electoral Reform Society, and by Conservative Action for Electoral Reform...) is the Single Transferrable Vote (STV):

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=48

http://www.conservativeelectoralreform.org/STV.htm


As for England: The Lib Dems want a more Federal UK, with more decentralisation of power, & want to address the status of England during a Constitutional Convention to draw up a written constitution for the whole UK.

And also... "the Lib-Dems would keep out of votes on England only matters"???? Erm, do you not realise that there are many Lib Dem MPs in ENGLAND?! (my own MP in Cambridge being one of them... Unless Cambridge & other LD-held constituencies have been moved to another nation within the UK without me or anyone else realising? :confused:)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

General Election 2010: Gordon Brown 'launched telephone rant' at Nick Clegg

It was claimed Mr Brown's approach was to begin "a diatribe" and "a rant" and the source said the Labour leader was "threatening in his approach to Nick Clegg".

Mr Clegg was said to have came off the phone assured that it would be impossible to work with Brown because of his attitude towards working with other people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/elec...ick-Clegg.html

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Bigot gate all over again :)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

it confirms my belief that he has no interest in any one else s opinion ,he has a one track mind that has brought the country to the brink of disaster ,and plans to carry on regardless until he is physically ejected from no 10 ,i predict a long slow recovery in a mental institution as i firmly believe he's going to blow a gasket .

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

That's what we're all hoping to see on the tele.

probably see the reporter outside number 10 talking about him being defeated and you hear him shouting and throwing stuff out the door onto the pavement and at the cameras :)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Would love to see the bailiffs sent in to evict him :LOL:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Does anyone actually believe what the Telegraph or any other newspaper says?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

They were citing the BBC, the story specifically states they were citing the BBC. First paragraph:

Best to read before judging sir.

Anyone who takes what newspapers say at face value is naive, in this case they are on perfectly safe ground.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I still don't believe even Brown would be that stupid, if you're trying to woo supporters it would be suicidal.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Anyone have any thoughts on how this will affect things?

Forget a referendum on the Euro, we should have one on leaving the EU altogether in my opinion. Being asked to guarantee the debts of the Eurozone is totally unacceptable for the 11 EU-27 nations that don't use it and it speaks volumes for European 'democracy' that the Lisbon treaty that Brown rammed down our throats is already being misused, it's barely 6 months old.

BBC report on this.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Indeed.

And considering Cleg would love this and Cameron dead set against it, looks like the wheels of the coalition could fall off before its got going.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

we should send them a clear message -NO more money the eu is like a mill stone around our necks.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Doubtful, it makes a pro-European position a lot less tenable. Above all else I think Clegg is a realist and pragmatist, his main problem will be selling pragmatism to those activists on the left of his party just as Cameron's will be about selling compromise to those on his right. A few Lib Dems are considerably closer to Cameron's policy view than some Conservatives.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yes, Also the Liberal Democrats would understand that they have to defer to the Tories on the majority of issues because they have far more votes and seats. As you say, while it may not suit Clegg, he is pragmatic. Not only that but he is unlikely to love bailing out EU countries, he wants to reform the EU anyway.

The Lib Dems would be happy with electoral reform, civil liberties (easy one considering both parties are close on this) and a seat or two in government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The Lib Dem voters I just heard on the BBC were typical of the activists:

No you didn't, but more people voted Conservative than Lib Dem so even under PR the Conservatives would be the dominant party and have the 'right' to decide the PM. Get over it and don't be asses, you've a chance to get a good part of your agenda through and make real progress, even if it's not as much as you'd wish for :(

EDIT: Likewise from the Tory point of view, they weren't given an overwhelming mandate and can either loosely govern or bite the bullet for the sake of the country, give ground, and give us a stable government sooner rather than later. At the moment what we need above all else is stability, which in my opinion only a Tory / Lib Dem coalition can give as the alternatives would be a mess.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

One person is hardly indicative of the entire support. Besides I would suggest he was arguing for no alliance at all, which I admit would be a waste, rather than him suggesting the Lib Dems should control everything.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

Agreed. I would suggest a lot of Lib Dems voters went for Voting Reform and Civil Liberties, the latter already supported by the Tories. So give them for the former in return for support on the rest of the Tories policies.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Agreed, hence use of 'activists' as opposed to supporters. The concern is that these are the people who tend to shout loudest, on both sides.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Sorry for the dumb question, but at this moment in time, whos actually running the country? :confused:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Labour as a caretaker government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Brown is. He will until the Queen can install another government in his place.

Brown will be dealing with all the security issues and such that come up but he's trying to keep a low profile at the moment as he knows he lost.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister and those who dispute his right to remain as PM are wrong. It's a simple fact.

He was asked to be PM by the Queen and at this moment in time is so until he resigns. Remember we don't elect a PM, we elect an MP and it is for them to decide.

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

And, incidentally, nobody actually won.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So if some important decision needs to be made, its down to GB? Thanks as I said it might sound dumb but Im lost with whos running what at the moment

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Correct.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Why don't Sky Interview politicians like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELJh2bTK1ew

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

because they never give an answer to the question asked ,none of them have yes or no in there vocabulary ,and turn every question on its head :D

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Protesters and idealistic idiots like him need to be confronted. That said she were getting on my tits by the end of the interview.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

What do you mean protesters and idealistic idiots like him need to be confronted? That's the kind of attitude that would have meant women never got the vote...

Surely this is proof if ever it was needed that Sky News has rapidly turned into Britain's version of Fox News.

Does she really think that 65% of those eligible to vote actually voted for a hung parliament? A hung parliament was the outcome of the system; not actually what people voted for... And to be really pedantic people actually voted for their MP...

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

This is amusing:

Sack Kay Burley: Watch the BBC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSlt-...eature=related

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

And a piece in, of all things, the Mail online: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/elec...ampaigner.html

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Nice try. Emmeline Pankhurst et al. didn't have the vote during the Suffragette movement. He did. He isn't complaining over unjust civil rights. He (and a considerable number of others) are throwing their collective teddies in the corner because they didn't get the result they wanted.

You think the protests would have happened if the Lib Dems have won? And your comments are quite insulting to the memories of those that died (including Emily Davidson) so we can vote.

No, its selfish. Its protesters over-inflated egos thinking that what they want to say is more important than whatever interview the viewers have tuned in for.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

hmmmm.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6480SY20100509

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It annoys me too saying that we voted for a hung parliament. especially when it wasn't even an option on the form.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No. They wouldn't have done the protests if the Liberal Democrats had won because one of their key policies is to implement electoral reform. This was a key issue for them before the election and remains so afterwards, it is very disrespectful to portray it was "throwing their collective teddies in the corner because they didn't get the result they wanted".

The Conservatives "won" with a 36.1% of the vote. Hardly a mandate to wield absolute power, which without an elected second chamber is effectively what a majority government has in this country. The protesters are keen to get electoral reform without being insulted and ignored because got closer to the finish line than either other party.

He was not saying "let's change the system until we win", he is saying "let's change the system so because get the parliament they voted for. It is not a sporting event where the highest number win and everyone else is ignored, it's democracy and a key point of that should be that people are accurately represented in their government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I wonder what these 48% would say IF the Prop. Rep system was in place and went tits up and ended up like Greece.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Greece has a majority government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I was talking about IF there was the proportional representaion (PR)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Well Germany has managed a strong economy with a system of proportional representation, quite a few of the G20 have some form of collation governments. It is incorrect to suggest such systems led to weak economies.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

What I find most extraordinary about the insistence on FPTP particularly by Tory supporters is that Scotland would probably have more than one Tory MP as a result. In addition we might have more MP's who will work for their collective constituents than to line their own pockets as it would no longer be a guaranteed job for life in some areas..

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It doesn't surprise me at all. Lib Dems and Labour combined got more than 50% of the vote. The Tories would lose out under a more proportional system.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

But aren't the ideology of the major & minor parties that form coalitions similar where as in the UK the parties are almost worlds apart?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I would argue with the suggestion that the parties are worlds apart, I think they can be quite similar, in this country their doesn't seem to massive gulfs in ideology.

However, if it were the case that the parties are worlds apart, that is because of the current political system which requires hostility between the parties as it's winner takes all in the electoral system. If we had collation governments they would have to compromise and moderate themselves in order to work together.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Yet they didn't protest before the election did they?

And Clegg's job is to assume control of the country. Do you think he would persue a policy that would keep him out of the running? He may be a liberal and part of the leftist elite but he has self-interest just like the centrists and those on the right.

Anyway, as per my previous post Clegg is the most powerful man in the country right now. Both other parties are bending over backwards trying to get Clegg on his side (well, Labour was at one point). He will massively shape the policies of the next government. I have not computed the various figures that of the dozens of systems Lib Dem supporters can dream up but i'd suggest that FPTP has been very kind to Lib Dems this time around.

If they wanted to protest about the election, why not protest Labour's constant gerrymandering?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Under FPTP Labour need the smallest percentage of votes to get a majority, so why are the Tories so anti when it would probably favour them more (based on Euro MP's who are elected by PR).

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It works both ways. In a two party system parties will tend to move to the center to get votes off each other. Under PR the extremes tend to get more representation. You also get more parties in parliament. Then again, the parties that actually get into government will tend to cooperate, leading to a consensus model.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

I don't think it would. Yes, the current system favours Labour most, but it also favours the Tories over the Lib Dems. PR would bring the Lib Dems in at the cost of Labour, but it would result in two parties on the left flank that would outnumber the Tories. Labour and Lib Dems combined got ~53% of the popular vote. The Tories ~35%. The current result would have been a nightmare for the Tories under PR.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No, they are complaining because they feel disenfranchised by the current electoral system which means that many votes are practically worthless.
No point in having the vote if it doesn't mean anything so in that sense not that far removed from not having the vote at all.

Can't say - but I would think not as the Lib Dems promised electoral reform.

I don't think the comments are insulting at all and I'm sure many who did die wouldn't fail to see the irony of a pointless voting system.

Your comments about confronting 'idiots' exercising their democratic right to peaceful protest is probably more insulting if you want to go down that road.



The protesters have every right to be there protesting peacefully. Are you saying they should be quiet for Sky news now or not protest against their perceived treatment by Sky News?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Actually there are 40/72 Right of Centre UK MEP's (25 Tory, 13 UKIP & 2 BNP)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So they are protesting because the party they voted for didn't win? Going a bit full-circle here aren't we?

Good. Hope they take heed. Although I doubt they'd care.

Peaceful? With the racket they were making?

Still boils down to the fact they are selfish and their protest forced an interview off the air. My main gripe with protesters like these is that the only people that are affected are entirely innocent and don't give a toss about whatever the protesters are whinging about.

And no, before you say it, continuing employment of Kay Burley is not same as denying women or black people the right to vote.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

How many times. It's not about not winning, it's questioning the nature that there is a winner and loser instead of people being presented in the manor they voted.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No, they are protesting for electoral reform and feel that the time has finally come to fix the broken system.




A bit weak if you're playing semantics. Peaceful, i.e. non-violent as you know full well I suspect.

Why are they selfish for forcing an interview off air? They don't have to bow down to Sky News now do they? And you know that all the viewers don't give a toss about what the protesters are whinging about, how exactly?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Hmm, yes. Fair point. :tu:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Let me know where you live and when you're trying to watch TV. I will come round and constantly ring your doorbell and then unplug your TV. And as its a non-violent protest you'll have to respect me and my right to protest.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Your house isn't a public area is it? ;)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Hardly comparing like with like. A completely pointless analogy.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

On a strictly proportional basis, this is roughly what the result would have been:

Tories: 234 (on 36.1% of the vote)
Labour: 188 (on 29% of the vote)
Lib Dems: 149 (on 23% of the vote)


However that is not the type of PR favoured by the Lib Dems.

The Lib Dems have not dreamed up "dozens of systems".

The Lib Dems want to see the UK use the Single Transferable Vote (STV) system. This is the same system preferred by the Electoral Reform Society, & also by Conservative Action for Electoral Reform.

More info on the system is here:

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/article.php?id=48

http://www.conservativeelectoralreform.org/STV.htm

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------

Agreed.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

The biggest problem with that system is that by and large the public are idiots and asking them to do anything more complex than scrawl an X leads to all manner of issues.

The system was used in the last elections up here and caused over 100,000 spoiled papers (about 1 in 20 of all votes cast)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1756280.ece

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I think this is a little unfair. Having just followed the links, Im not quite clear what STV is. I am not an idiot.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

As the article states It was not the basics of STV that were at fault it was as highlighted above. In a fair and transparent system it is perfectly comprehensible. Were this not the case, Germany, Greece, Ireland and all the others would now have FPTP. It is very unfair to insult the intelligence of the voters by claiming any thing but FPTP is incomprehensible.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

That link doesn't really back your point up. The specific problem in 2007 was the use of two different systems of PR, in two different elections (Holyrood and Council) both being held at the same time.

My degree-educated missus (rather more highly qualified academically than me, I should add) made a mess of it herself, getting her Xs and numbers in the wrong place.

I am willing to bet that neither council nor Scottish Parliament elections will suffer anything like the same level of spoilt papers next time round, and the reason will not be that the voting systems are changed - because they aren't being changed - but that the elections are no longer going to be held on the same day.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Indeed.

Although the method for counting in an STV election is more complicated than counting in an FPTP election, the actual voting itself is fairly simple:

http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/d...20is%20stv.pdf

Marking the candidates in preference using a "1", "2", "3" etc. seems fairly simply to me, even if it isn't as simple as a single "X".

The Republic of Ireland & other countries seem to manage with STV. We could have actually had STV & AV in the UK nearly a hundred years ago if it hadn't been blocked by the House of Lords.


Any change in the voting system would also (should also) surely be accompanied by voter education on how the new system would work: leaflets in the post, stuff on TV/newspapers/etc., clear instructions in polling stations & on ballot papers.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

14 year old votes in the election: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...nd/8670022.stm

Not sure about his political opinions (and dressing like a Tory) but it's a shame as sounds more intelligent that BNP voters and the feckless who can't be bothered to vote.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm fine with STV my only concern is how it translates to the current constituencies. It would need to be done by borough, county or a similar administrative division and would cause upset among some constituencies - there would be a number of MPs without one or constituencies that have been assigned one.

Overall not a bad idea and not actually massively different from FPTP so long as it's done that way - each of the enlarged constituencies electing directly via FPTP then across the area a 2nd MP being assigned to each of those larger constituencies based on STV results across the administrative area would ensure local accountability and if the electorate weren't happy with who they were assigned a robust process to remove them democratically would be a prerequisite as part of the reform.

As a compromise STV could even be used alongside the current system to elect a second house if election to the Commons via it were so unpalatable.

I must admit the more I think about it the more I like it. It's all kinds of democratic.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Just after the election and the following story gets printed in The Sunday Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7120750.ece

Why not last week?? ;)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

You seem to be thinking of the system used for Holyrood and for the Senedd in Cardiff, but that isn't STV. In the top-up list system used in Wales and Scotland, you elect a representative for a constituency by FPTP, then you clump a number of constituencies together into a region and elect representatives for that region by asking voters to choose a single party via an X. The seats in the region are allocated proportionally, also taking into account the seats already won at constituency level.

It delivers reasonably good proportionality overall, and it retains a close link between a constituency and an individual representative, but the major drawback is the use of a list of candidates drawn up by the Parties to top up at regional level. In practice, what happens is, all the constituency candidates are also on their party's regional list. So even if they don't win their constituency contest, they stand a pretty good chance of getting elected, if they are high enough up their regional list (seats being allocated to the first name on the list, and then on downwards until the allocation for that party in that region is filled).

Under this system, the likes of Jacqui Smith, Neil Hamilton and Lembit Opik are almost impossible to get rid of, no matter how personally unpopular they may have become to their local electorate, because as prominent members of their party they are always going to get a prominent place on their regional list. They lose their constituency seat, but they still get in as a regional top-up.

The only way to mitigate this is to either make the party list open - so that you don't just mark your X for a party, but for a named individual from that party - or else dispense with lists altogether and go for full-blown STV, which gives voters in a given area a list of names and a requirement to rank them in order of preference. This is the system used in local council elections in Scotland, and was a precondition of the LibDem coalition with Labour in Scotland way back when the Parliament was first founded.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I get all that, but how does it fit into 650 constituencies? If electing 5 ministers to each constituency you'd need to reduce that to 130 constituencies so there'd need to be some allocation to individual areas in the constituency or a bit of a loss of identity of your representative.

Just a small concern.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/elect...tuency/c17.stm

The guy who came last here didn't even vote for himself!

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

It doesn't fit into 650 constituencies. The only way it works is with a smaller number of larger constituencies represented by more than one elected member. This is what has happened in Scottish councils. There are fewer wards, but 3-4 councillors per ward.

The means by which you shuffle the votes around to achieve the 'transferable' aspect of STV, and how it ultimately results in broadly proportional representation, is frighteningly complex, but if you want to know exactly how it works, you can read up on it with the PDF available here:

http://www.votescotland.com/stv/file...nVS19Apr07.pdf

You are concerned about the impact on local representation ... fair enough, but I'm not convinced that that argument trumps the obscenity of a party getting 9% of the seats from 23% of the votes, which is the position the Lib Dems are in right now. Why should so many people not have their voices adequately heard in Parliament?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So what happened to the argument about a voting system that is more proportional resulting in weak and ineffective government? I'm not saying that you've pushed that argument, but I'm a bit surprised at the apparent support for a proportional system. Are people now convinced that consensus and co-operation is the future of UK politics?

I have to say though that I really like the idea of a system that is proportional whilst retaining local inks.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

extrapolating that, could we have a system where electing a local candidate would enable them to vote freely, exclusive of a 'party whip' ???

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Oh dear, look what just happened in Germany:

Merkel's national coalition loses its slim majority in the upper house of parliament, the Bundesrat

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

At least they have an elected upper chamber, compared to the joke we have here. I also note that the Beeb article doesn't talk of impending doom for Germany as its weak, ineffectual Government now faces further handicaps.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Does anything actually get done in a PR government with an elected second chamber that the majority voted for?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

You don't remember Germany after reunification then?

Would a BNP/Monster Raving Loony/Citizens for Undead Rights and Equality MP be a benifit to the nation or a waste of £65K a year?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

A waste.

But would they get in in the 1st place?

The BNP only polled 1.9% nationally, with 563,743 votes. Other fringe parties even less so.


If, however, they did get in past whatever vote threshold was set, & showed themselves to be a waste, would they get voted in the next time?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

'Weak and ineffective government' is a self-serving argument offered by those who think that only they can provide strong and effective government. They usually follow it up by giving Italy as an example (almost as many governments as there have been years since 1945), whilst conveniently ignoring Germany, at the opposite end of the scale, which does ok for itself despite having an almost rabid obsession with federalism and consensus in its national and regional politics.

Coalitions have historically failed to last very long in the UK, but in the UK all parties know that they have a fighting chance of getting an outright majority if a coalition fails and an election is called. Hence there is no incentive to stick with it.

I have no desire to see fringe loons holding the country to ransom but the fact is, the British electorate has fragmented and opted to support a wider range of parties despite the fact that the electoral system can't deliver on their choices. In my view, there simply isn't an argument to be had any more. The electorate has already demonstrated that it is no longer interested in the two-party system.

I think Cameron is canny enough to recognise this (and to recognise that there is going to be a referendum on PR if Clegg gets into bed with Labour instead of with him) and genuinely wants to grasp the nettle and at least see if he can devise a PR system that won't excessively disadvantage his party. His problem is that there are too many old dinosaurs on his back benches who still believe it's only a matter of time before they can win outright power again, and then everything will be as it was in 1983.

Either AV+ or FPTP with a top-up list would provide the local MP link you want to retain, however in my view those systems make it too difficult to get rid of personally unpopular MPs, because they can get in on the regional list if they fail to win in a constituency. Making the regional list open (i.e. you see all the names listed for each party, and X one of them, rather than simply X-ing the party) would solve the problem, but it creates another - absolutely massive ballot papers.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

For local council elections, I prefer the alternative vote

For the general election, I prefer the closed party list.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Several uBNP councillors have been re-elected.
They managed to get two MEPs thanks to PR, chances are, thanks to PR they'll keep their jobs.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Anyone else find it a bit odd Vince Cable isn't part of the talks? He was by his side throuought the entire campaign and (appeared, at least) to be Clegg's closest and most respect confident. Much the same way as Hague was for Cameron or the Dark Lord for Brown. Yet he has no role to play in the biggest event in the Lib Dem's history for 70 years?

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Thanks for that. I couldn't have put it better myself. Having lived under PR for most of my life I never understood the weak government argument myself. In fact, I find the idea of one party holding absolute power to push through legislation that the electorate was never consulted on quite scary. Coalition governments ensure that there is a proper cross-party debate on such issues, which is a good thing in my opinion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Personally I'm not holding my breath (yet), but I find the idea that you are positive about it promising.

I don't think massive ballot papers are a problem. I've voted on A1 size ballot papers. It's only a problem if you've got very short arms. :)

It'll be interesting to see what (if anything) will change. As said, I really like the idea of having a proportional system with local links and the ability to get rid of unpopular people. Best of both worlds if you ask me.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Indeed, I've never lived under PR, but I have lived through a situation where thanks to our current system, we were by a party who had effectively unchallenged control despite most of the southern half of the country not voting for them. As such they could get through a lot of their bills with little or no resistance.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

No, they managed to get two MEPs because sufficient people voted for them. This is what we call 'democracy'. I'm disturbed by the implication that you think it acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to lock out people you disagree with.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Probably because their financial policies are poles apart. The Torys said they wouldn't compromise on financial policy.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Regardless of my preferred outcome I can't help but think that Brown/Cable/Darling steering the country through the economic crisis would be the best team.

I wonder whether they can just agree that there will be a cross-party group to deal with the economic crisis aside from party politics/factions as they keep saying, in the national interest, and then leave this out of the negotiations over who forms the next government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I'm disturbed that you think it's acceptable to choose an electoral system that is designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions.

Germany and Italy are wheeled out as examples as good and bad, while ignoring Germany's near bankruptcy through botched reunification which still sees the East being vastly behind the West, and the serious weakening to Merkel's government through the coalition she was forced into several times.
I could of course list many more countries where PR produces weak and ineffective governments, but you already know about them, but are choosing to ignore them.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I can't see Lib-Lab coalition being feasible. They still wouldn't have the seats they need without having to get SNP, PC and other parties in to push them over 326 seats?

If a 2 party coalition is difficult, a 4,5, 6 party coalition has to be worse, especially when people have different nationalistic interests.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Good grief what a load of nonsense. PR is not 'designed to produce NOC, compromise, fractured government, and wasteful positions'. Why on earth would anyone want to 'design' a system with those attributes? PR is designed for government to reflect the opinions of the electorate. That it result in weak and ineffective governments is just baseless rhetoric. The example of German reunification is completely irrelevant. How on earth is the fact that this process was 'botched' down to PR, and what evidence do you have that this process would have been done better under another system?

Oh, and I'm very interested in this long list of weak governments that you will probably fail to provide.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Near bankruptcy?Not really....

also,the East is behind the West in some parts,most of Eastern Germany however is thoroughly modernised,and in many instances in better shape than the West!
And yes,PR may cripple the country,Germany seems to be constantly squabbling about one thing or the other.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I think that sort of thing normally happens when a candidate withdraws from the ballot, but they have missed the deadline for the printers. So their votes are not counted, but they are still listed. This is where an STV system would be of use. If someone was to put their choice as the withdrawn candidate, their second option would get the vote.

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

Or was it that not enough people voted at all? Being as their current excuse is that too many people voted this time around.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

As I said, you already know about them but are choosing to ignore them in which case, no point me listing them is there, or if you really don't know about them, then you should do a bit more research into the consequences of PR.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Perhaps, but can you not just humour those of us who are too old and may have forgotten? ;)

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

FFS. Have you taken a course in obfuscation, misdirection, and deliberately no answering a question put to you?

Thanks, I don't have to do any research into the consequences of PR. I've lived and voted in a PR system for most of my life, so I know the consequences first hand. It's not perfect, but it's a *lot* better than the system here where nearly a quarter of the electorate see their vote get them 9% of the seats in the commons.

I'm quite happy to debate it, but unfortunately you only seem intent on coming out with pointless rhetoric that you don't can't (or are unwilling to) back up with any kind of fact or reasoned argument.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

So because you've had the experience in one country, you don't think you should do a bit of your own research into the effects in other nations?

I can do that too, I've lived in a FPTP system all my voting life and seen it produce strong governments.
I've also seen first hand PR countries and the ineffectiveness of them.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

He has shown other countries where it has worked such as Germany, Chris came up with a well reasoned argument as well. He asked you to provide the list of countries where it hasn't worked.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Some form of PR actually produces a MORE stable government than the see-saw politics of single party administrations. I can remember the nightmare of the 70's with each new government immediately undoing everything the previous one did. It is only since the 80's that we have had long term administrations, which given this last election looks set to become a rarity again. At least with consensus politics the extremes are evened out.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

*cough* Israel *cough*
The religious right are able to blackmail the other parties into doing anything they want.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Could you honestly see this country doing the same. :dozey:

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Conservatives/Liberal Democrats agree a "outline" of a deal to form the new government.

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Good if there is an agreement and it goes ahead then the next action will be to get the bailiffs in and remove that squatter out of No 10

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Sorry, thought you were talking generally with that last comment.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

Didn't the Heliograph send a removal van down there at the weekend? :D

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

I see the Fabian society reckon that a Conlib deal could be an 'electoral gift" to Labour at a second election.

http://www.fabians.org.uk/general-ne...ur-says-report

Re: 2010 General Election: The Cable Forum Exit Poll
 

Would have loved to have seen the look on Browns face :LOL: