Re: The existence of God
 

I wasn't aiming it at your head.
I didn't say you were aiming it at my head.
I didn't say I was aiming it at your head either.

Re: The existence of God
 

:D :D :D

I haven't done that much research on them but I've definately not heard of the Glasweigen Chapter of Scientology :spin:

Re: The existence of God
 

I doubt you ever will ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

I have.

Published links to their whole secret bible on the web.

Scientology makes Christianity look sane!!!

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ, I'd like to say. I admire the conviction you have in your religion/faith.
After reading through this thread and in some part adding to it, I take my hat off to you.

xocemp - atheist :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Another pointless dig which will only serve to reinforce people's opinions of you.

Re: The existence of God
 

Jeeesh, I'm a devout atheist, but the way some of my fellows have been behaving in this thread, is beyond the pale. Get a grip/life guys...

Re: The existence of God
 

The amount of true atheist I've counted in this thread can be counted on one hand, the rest are bottom feeding trolls and scared agnostics.

Re: The existence of God
 

Or intellectuals like me, who turn their back on medieval science.

Re: The existence of God
 

What about the sceptics. you missed out the sceptics.

Re: The existence of God
 

"The average person believes they are above average" ;)


Yeah, you could say they are akin to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

But I had you covered in that sentence also ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Nope... Bottom feeding trolls sounds about right to me...

Re: The existence of God
 

I understand the troll bit, but who's bottom is it they're feeding?

Re: The existence of God
 

Anyhow, back OT.
When was the last time a man or woman of faith knocked on your door?

Re: The existence of God
 

Sunday just gone.

Re: The existence of God
 

Which religion are you referring to as a science?

Can you tell us/me a little more about the experience: What conversation took place, what did you learn. How did you ask the 'door knocker' to leave? Did you offer the 'door knocker' alternatives to their beliefs?

If I'm not busy I invite them in. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm referring to all religions .... do keep up old chap.

Re: The existence of God
 

No experience really, no conversation took place, I didn't learn anything, I didn't ask them to leave they just went away, I didn't offer them anything.

As long as you let them leave when they're begging :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ can you confirm if Christianity has made such claims, I'm sure not but can you confirm/deny?

But you asked so many questions in this thread so why not ask them?

They leave as safe and intact as they entered, I do state my thoughts and standings on religion before inviting them in. Some decline my invitation but offer to leave me some reading, I pleasantly decline their kind offer.

Re: The existence of God
 

I thought Science and Religion didn't mix?

Re: The existence of God
 

I didn't answer the door.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not sure how you knew they were of the religious ilk, but I'll take your word for it that you did. May I ask why you didn't answer?

Re: The existence of God
 

They were grinning.

Good, otherwise you'd have to call me a liar.

I was preoccupied.

Re: The existence of God
 

There's not even the slightest hint of proof and never will be, This firmly puts the ball in the non believers court.

It's inarguable but you continue to do so and knock on my door telling me so.

'Medieval science' is the goodnight thought for tonight.

Goodnight and sleep well.

Re: The existence of God
 

But would I be wrong in doing so? ;)

Sure Gary :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Yes.

Is this going somewhere?

Re: The existence of God
 

Scientific proof no and no one has argued this except you.
Ball in court? You make it sound as a game/competition.


I've never knocked at your door, though I suspect you mean people of faith.
Have you regurgitate your poorly thought out thesis on a real live believer face to face or do you hide behind your door too?

If its the best you have to offer then perhaps retiring now is the best thing ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Quite a few scientists are people of faith, and don't see it as an "either/or".

Linky

Re: The existence of God
 

The only people who say Christianity makes claims of being science, you won't be surprised to hear, are atheists who are ignorant of such matters and spend their time on some pointless descrediting mission.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ah, the old straw man "I will state that someone has said something, and then show that they are wrong, even if they didn't say it in the first place" approach.

Never happens on here, surely? ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

This is unfair, Some people do pretend their views with regards to creationism are science.

Re: The existence of God
 

Some Christians make claims of science but not Christianity itself, which is what the original accusation/implication was.

Just because a Christian might claim it's based on science does not mean that's representational of the wider Christian view.

Re: The existence of God
 

True Russ. same can be said about any Christian's claims not necessarily meaning it's a representational view of all the other Christians.
that's where belief kicks in.

Re: The existence of God
 

No one?

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

There's another 88.8 million pages on the subject on the web. Crack on!

Re: The existence of God
 

How about you change the habit of a lifetime and actually read what I've posted?

That page says some of the Bible is consistant with science. Does anyone doubt that? Well, I'm sure you would but anyone else?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not sure as yet.

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh goody - straw man time.

Can I have a go?

British Racism 6.4 million pages

9/11 Conspiracy - 110 million pages

Evil scientists - 3.1 million pages

Good Christians - 49.8 million pages

Re: The existence of God
 

Do stay on topic old bean.

Re: The existence of God
 

I will, if you stop raising straw men, old chum.....

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

Sorry, Auntie M.

Re: The existence of God
 

Seems people have been busy, and I'm just back from work and there's LOADS of new posts!

I thought Scientology had been officially recognised as a religion in countries such as Spain, New Zealand, Portugal, Australia and Italy, to name a few. although it's not an official religious institution in the UK, I'm sure I read that the Royal Navy recognises it as a religion.

Re: The existence of God
 

Other countries can think what they want...

Re: The existence of God
 

thou speekest the truth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology

---------- Post added at 19:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

[QUOTE=Russ B;34770260]You can be nasty to us without fear of recriminations.

Scientology isn't a religion by the way.

thats an interesting point of view --it has its own followers who believe in its teachings etc they believe its a religion,they are free to believe in God, why do you believe its not a religion when you freely accept other faiths ,i find that confusing .

Re: The existence of God
 

Because in the UK it's not recognised as a religion.

Re: The existence of God
 

so because there not recognised by the establishment ,you do not recognise there faith ? please correct me if i have this wrong.

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh don't worry, I'll do that.

I didn't say I don't recognise their faith. And they have the right to follow and believe anything they want. But in the UK Scientology is not classed as a religion. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact.

On a personal level I don't like many of their practises but they have as much right to follow Scientology as you do of atheism.

Re: The existence of God
 

Actually Scientology is more like a cult than a religion.

Re: The existence of God
 

then it is a religion by definition if you go by that.

Re: The existence of God
 

i read the wiki -its a very strange read its even got space ships .

Re: The existence of God
 

Yep, scientology...

Re: The existence of God
 

For those with an interest in the God debate, lasts about 1 and a half hours.
http://skepticdave.blogspot.com/2009...st-lennox.html

Re: The existence of God
 

You watch it for us and come back and post the main points.

Re: The existence of God
 

Thats why I posted "For those with an interest in the God debate", you have no interest, if you did you would watch it. You seem to take more pleasure is winding up as many of the user base in as many topics as you can.
Your agenda is clear, and its boring...

Re: The existence of God
 

Hey, that's a bit harsh.... It's equal, the believers belief winds up the non believers too.

Re: The existence of God
 

I've already watched it some time ago. I can't remember if I watched it because I was interested or not. I'll have to ask you whether I forced myself to watch it at the time.

and your agenda isn't to point the finger and get me stoned. is it ;)

---------- Post added at 00:15 ---------- Previous post was at 00:14 ----------

It's that blindfold :)

Re: The existence of God
 

according to the European conventions on freedom of religion ( article 9 ) i think the uk would have to recognise it unfortunately lol

see

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...religions.html

http://www.coe.int/T/d/Kommunikation...-208-GH-Ru.asp

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd call this a childish act.

Let me put this to you:

First you need to define what God is before you can come to any answer and everyone needs the exact same definition which you are never going to get,therefor you have a question that can never have an answerer but only opinions.

To some people there is a God,
to others there are many Gods,
to others there is no God.

Everybody posting is merely stating there own opinion, and is unlikely to change it.

The believers state that because we don't know something, the explanation must be God.
Science can't work it out and logic can't work it out, therefore there must be a supreme being.
There's no evidence whatsoever, simply a lack of explanation.
Just because we don't know something right now, doesn't mean that we won't know it on the future!

Those who vehemently deny the existence of any supreme beings,
are doing exactly the same as those who zealously believe...
that being, putting forward there own point of view without a shred of evidence.
Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence!

Those of an adult nature feel free to debate with me :)

Pointing the finger at you for why Gary L?

Re: The existence of God
 

I didn't even know there was such an act.

---------- Post added at 00:28 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

I put it to you that he was joking. :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

My thoughts exactly daniel, there's a right way of putting your thoughts and questions across, but unfortunately many have not chosen that route.:shrug:


Yes, but do they have phasers and warp drive.:)

Re: The existence of God
 

And thus my surprise that religion is even being allowed to be discussed.

Lock the thread and ban all Religion / ID / and like threads.

It just causes arguments. :(

Re: The existence of God
 

Your a non believer right?
Ok I'll take the stance of an agnostic, I can do this as an atheist because I done my homework, I've looked at it from many angles and I've spoken with men of faith and doubted my own thoughts for many years.


Science is remarkably limited. There is no arguing that it does very well in explaining some of the more macro-reality issues of our universe. But when you get down to the fine details, science becomes increasingly inadequate to answering fundamental questions about the universe. Quantum theory is the best tool set that allows physicists to examine the minute details of matter matter interaction, the basis of materialism. However, it is unable to resolve core concepts, such as integrating properly into relativity theory. Other limits are our biological limits to math. Maths development, imo, is currently lagging in development, as at the fringe it is increasingly hard to use math to prove quantum theory. We just cant wrap our minds around some of the outlier mathematical concepts. What about observer effect in physics, conflated to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle? Because the very act of observation changes the nature of the observed, we cant really know the fundamental nature of anything.
To wrap up, what science has provided to elucidate fundamental questions is inadequate. This is a disappointment because it really is all we have apart from religion. Furthermore, quantum theory, where i think it all boils down to, is our best guess. There is no second answer, its all but impossible to come up with another theory apart from it, and it doesn't even work very well.

That really leaves only one line of thought. We, as humans are biologically limited in intelligence. I really think that we wont be able to come up with a clear answers to deep questions such as is there a god etc, because we don't have the necessary cognitive power, or strategy to do so. At best we will have foggy answers. Science is like a dim light in a large dark room. The closer to the light source the brighter it is. This reflects our understand of things most evident to us; macro-physics, biology, the visible world. The further away from the light, the less clear things become; economics, quantum physics, etc. Then you hit the dark, where the light doesn't reach, or is too scattered. That dark might contain further answers, but we just cant see them. One of these answers is to the question is there really a god/ gods?

This line of reasoning would put me me firmly as an agnostic, where I can just nicely say we can't prove/disprove the existence of God, because we just cant; no one can.

Best way forward is to upgrade our intelligence, either through natural or artificial evolution. Problem with this is; we are of limited intelligence so anything we design will also be limited. Don't know if that will be a show stopper, as we can probably raise that limit every time we evolve. But for now, we cant or haven't evolved to a higher intelligence yet, so we are stuck with the same circular arguments of science vs religion, God vs no God, etc, which has occurred within this very post. Given enough time, and the survival of the homo evolutionary lineage I'm confident we will be able to solve these important questions. But for now, kick back, and enjoy life, and put these questions behind you, because there are no answers.

What say you sir? :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Edit > 'cut' from God bothering website ... Edit > 'Paste' from God bothering website.

Well done.

Re: The existence of God
 

Then google my words, oh wise intelligent debate avoiding one :)

Re: The existence of God
 

the "prove it" statements wind up some on either side

i can say it doesnt bother me i believe what i believe what others belive doesnt bother me but i will post what i belive and why if asked but i am not bothered if people dont agree as i am not asking them to just stating answers to questions on what i believe ;) :angel: me lol

Re: The existence of God
 

He probably is wondering whether to ask where you copied and pasted it all from :)

Me personally thinks that it doesn't have to be so in depth whether you're a believer or not. if you don't believe then one day comes you live it till the next. you can devote your life to trying to find answers, but is it worth it when there is more important things to be bothered about. such as living it?

---------- Post added at 01:11 ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 ----------

I knew it wasn't him. I understood it too much :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Then use your Google skills to find the text on the Internet.
Then when you can't find it, come back and put your scientific minds and theories to me and convert me.

---------- Post added at 01:25 ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 ----------

And the difference being you can state what you believe without bashing, baiting and putting up the strawman.

Re: The existence of God
 

Then there's others who will ask questions but won't accept opinions as an answer. even though them themselves have said there are no answers but only opinions.

Re: The existence of God
 

We put 'up' reason, doubt, and science.

Nothing else! you respond with myths and stories, none of which are authenticated.

Re: The existence of God
 

Show me your reason and science.

Re: The existence of God
 

The physical evidence of 'Evolution'.

Re: The existence of God
 

:LOL:

God made it that way...

But what if evolution is God's tool? Darwin never said anything about God. Many scientists and theologians maintain that it would be perfectly logical to think that a divine being used evolution as a method to create the world.

Re: The existence of God
 

Unfortunately for you, the bible contradicts your statement and evolution didn't happen! DOH!

Re: The existence of God
 

A theory provided by a Christian man who said

I know there is plenty of speculation as to why this paragraph appeared

Re: The existence of God
 

Romans 1:25 "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised. Amen."

Maybe God had that covered to and forewarned us

Re: The existence of God
 

But most of the Christian churches agree evolution did happen.

DOH!

Re: The existence of God
 

I am going to have to insist you stop using common sense and facts in this thread against DRZ400. It is completely unfair and I consider it to be a form of bulling and harrassment. From now on please only use circular reasoning, opinions-dressed-uo-as-facts and weakened arguments.

Re: The existence of God
 

All I put on the table is Science and fact, You're responding with ancient myths and fairy tales.

The fury from the Church of England is well documented when Darwin released 'The Origin of Species' in 1859, even more so with the 'Descent of Man' in 1871. The Church was furious as it contradicted ALL their beliefs and tried to discredit Darwin. As we know to this day, Darwin was correct, the Church was in a very difficult predicament. Man evolving from apes makes a mockery of the good book. What did they do, dismissed it, only 150 years later are official apologies to Darwin are being issued, many Churches, even with the evidence of DNA, refuse to agree completely with evolution.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ine-news_rss20

How can the Church possibly be wrong, and ADMIT they're on such a major issue. Unless .......... DOH!!!:D

Re: The existence of God
 

So how do you respond when I state the fact that God's existence is not a fact?

By the way the Church of England does not speak for all (or even most) Christians....

And plenty of us accept evolution alongside God. How do you respond to that?

Re: The existence of God
 

Because you and alike were FORCED to change your views in the light of unquestionable science.

Where's evolution mentioned in the Bible by the way?

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh for crying out loud, you're really scraping the barrel trying to force things to go your way. Ever heard of Isaac Newton? Scientist who descovered gravity? He was a Christian.

Electricity isn't mentioned in the bible either, are you now going to suggest Christianity doesn't believe in that?

Re: The existence of God
 

Small point, but probably relevant - the Bible was written thousands of years ago, and also doesn't mention electronics, quantum physics, hair gel, and Event Horizons, but the modern churches accept these as facts.

When are you going to lambast the Italians for crucifying criminals? (oh, you probably won't, as that was 2000 years ago), and Scandinavians for raping and pillaging (again, you probably won't as that was over a 1000 years ago).

What about the scientists who thought the universe revolved around the earth, and who believed it heavier than air flight was impossible? Should we hold modern scientists responsible for those attitudes?

Re: The existence of God
 

You're getting cross because you can't answer the question, "Where is evolution mentioned in the Bible" because it's not in the Bible!!!

Re: The existence of God
 

OK - can you answer where is evolution mentioned in 2000 year old scientific tracts - you can't, because it isn't.

Back atcha! ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

OK I'll address that - it isn't mentioned in the Bible.

So is that how you come to the conclusion that Christianity doesn't believe or accept evolution? Because if that's what you think then on that basis Christianity doesn't believe in Reggae Reggae Sauce, rhubard, Jack Bauer, pogo sticks, blu-tac, Bobby Robson, matching dinner sets, the Gower coastline etc...

Re: The existence of God
 

fwiw, Bobby Robson is mentioned in the Bible.

The Anti-Christ! :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Now .... The Bible has it's own HUGELY incorrect and laughably inaccurate version of evolution and the creation of the world / Adam and Eve ect ....

So you're both saying you believe in evolution AND the Bible.

They both can't be correct as they contradict each other.

I suppose you're going to ignore the question and just bang on about tractors and diggers aren't in the bible now. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

So .... which is correct. Bible or Science.

Re: The existence of God
 

In all the time I've spoken to atheist I have never encountered anyone with such ignorant and uneducated views on the subject,

Firstly I haven't ignored anything - on the contrary I've answered all the rubbish you've put forward and you've ignored and dodged most of the points I and your follow atheists have put to you.

Evolution and Creationism do not contradict each other. Open your eyes and your mind and you will see how they can happily co-exist. Of course you won't agree because because you refuse to research anything that contradicts what you think.

---------- Post added at 14:00 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

About what?

Re: The existence of God
 

And there you go AGAIN ignoring the question.

"ignorant and uneducated" YOU haven't put ONE item of evidence infront of me apart from a 900 odd page fairy tale that is so implausible, it's laughable.

That and 'oh he talked to me once but i'm not telling anyone about it' .... well that's enough proof for me ... HALLELUJAH! :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

You're the only person on the forum who thinks i've ignored any of your questions.

Why would I offer any evidence when I'm not trying to prove anything?

You're the only person who thinks I offered that as 'proof'.

Answer me this: do you think I am trying to prove the existence of God?

Right, let's see how much of this post you ignore.

Re: The existence of God
 

So you are asking why a 2000 (and parts of it older) year old book doesn't mention evolution?

Straw man

Re: The existence of God
 

In fairness, Russ has never said he can offer evidence. He has only expressed his beliefs. Belief in something does not require evidence.

Re: The existence of God
 

Belief in guilt does, make your minds up Christians, we were either created or we evolved you can't have it both ways. how can the Christian church say incest is wrong, when incest could be the only way so many people are on this planet, when we only started with two. By the way the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs either but they were around at the beginning of life on this planet.

Re: The existence of God
 

Yes it does.

Re: The existence of God
 

lol

Re: The existence of God
 

If God created Adam and Eve. they were created as humans to produce humans.
They produced Kane and Abel, Kane later killed Abel. did Kane sleep with Eve, or did Eve produce a sister for Kane to sleep with?

whichever way it happened. incest had to be a part of it?

Re: The existence of God
 

Link Please. It also mentions fiery chariots but no one has seen those.

Re: The existence of God
 

It mentions a couple of serpents which the god squad have used to cover millions of years of dinosaurs.:rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

Re: The existence of God
 

Name calling - how mature.............:D

I love it when people demand that I not have faith - the cheek of me. :)