Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I too hope HOPE she is alive but being realistic that is less loikely by the day. Whether some people like it or not the parents have to answer the question of why they up and left their very young children alone so they could have a damn meal.

Remember these are two professionals in the NHS and should have known better and should certainly have had the money to hire a babysitter if they really felt they needed time alone. I have said it before and i will repeat it if this had been some single mum from a council estate the media would be crying for her blood for negligence.

Many aspects of this affair don't sem to make much sense from an outside perspective but complaining about how the media is acting is not the thing to do and like many other past situations you invite the press into your life at your peril they have a long history of starting off good and going downhill something most people know and accept.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Some good points, but how can you suggest they 'invited' the press into their lives? As if they had much choice ...

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

They've been rather active in seeking publicity haven't they? They almost every country in Europe to draw attention to the matter. They even spoke to the Pope.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Last time I checked, His Holiness was the head of a religious organisation, not an Editor. ;)

And I think the kind of publicity they have been looking for hardly constitutes 'inviting' the press into their lives. It sounds to me a little too much like the c- and d-list celebs who 'invite' Hello! and OK! into 'their lovely homes'.

There is nothing warm and cosy about this and TBH I don't think they felt they had much choice.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

It got them a lot of coverage though!

I have felt from early on that they sought an incredible amount of attention, so I would say they invited the press in. Then again, I cannot begin to imagine their situation, so I couldn't say what I would do. :shrug:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hmmm really don't know what to make of this personally. I've always found it rather strange that the babies that were in the room with Madeleine, supposedly, were not taken or harmed in any way. That to me suggests two things: the attack on Madeleine was for some sort of sexual pleasure leading to murder and that the killer wasn't "into" babies, that the parents were somehow involved... new twins... maybe Madeleine was getting "too old" for them and they wanted to concentrate on their new children... or of course that the attacker (if there was one of them), only had the chance to take one of the children (although why would he take the oldest, and potentially loudest and more likely to create a scene?). All speculation though, just a few thoughts.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

At the risk of turning it into an argument over semantics, yes, I agree they sought attention, but I'm objecting to the use of 'invited' because it makes it sound like it was something they desired or courted, rather than something they felt they needed to do.

I would try to try to move heaven and earth if it was my daughter and I expect I'd do what the McCanns have done. I'd be doing it out of necessity though, and having been a hack, in the full knowledge that there would be a faustian price to pay at some stage. Miserable, heartless, cynical sods, the lot of them. Partly why I got out of it ...

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Well if you want to argue over the "invited" part go for it but they have certainly courted the press more then they needed too and that was what i meant. Press part of this to be honest is not the most worrying part for me in this whole affair.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Well, now I'm curious about what you would consider to be 'necessary' courting of the press ... where would you draw the line, and why? Are you suggesting that there are limits to how far parents should go to try to get their child rescued?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Do you think that they(the parents) have a case to answer for regarding negligence when they get back to the UK? Should social services get involved to protect the 'safety/well being' of the twins.

It's not the first time that they had left the kids alone, it's just the first time they've got caught out.

Does the abduction/disappearance/death of their daughter (which they might have something to do with) absolve them from any future questioning from say, social services.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

It's a difficult question that one, but I have felt uneasy about the amount of attention they sought. They've gone on National television in Holland and Germany (and spoke to the Pope) and I did wonder if that served any purpose (realistically). I seem to recall they were quizzed about this, and their reply was that they were trying to keep it in the news as much (and as long) as possible as it would increase the chances of finding her back. Whether there is a line to draw I don't know, but this case has received considerably more attention than other cases of children going missing. The McCanns played an important part in that.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Chris not being funny mate but the fact they buggered off and left their kids alone doesn't shout to me the personification of parenthood. I expect the press to report what is happening with the kiddie not that the parents were jetting off here and there looking for her. most parents that have a child abducted make an appeal and then leave it to the proper authoritie's to liase with the press the mc'canns have been more then happy to go in front of the camera's on many occasion's when they didn't need too. Salif yes i do think there is a case to answer but i doubt very much anything will happen about it sadly.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I agreee, it was a very stupid thing to do, but I suspect it's not so uncommon as we might like to think - especially amongst intelligent parents who think they have weighed up, and are on top of, the risks, as the McCanns apparently thought at the time.

I think some amount of their Press 'courting' can probably be attributed to feelings of guilt, and trying to make up for what in hindsight was obviously a critical error of judgement.

But I don't think an error of judgement, even if repeated, makes you a 'bad' parent, requiring the serious attention of Social Services. There are plenty more deserving cases in this country where councils should be directing their limited budgets.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

There we differ i have 2 kids and if i had left them alone when they were little more then baby's i would call my self a bad parent as i think the vast majority of parents would.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I believe Mrs McCann in particular has media friends and this may well explain the way in which they've dealt with the press and the manner in which they've managed to keep the story rolling. The press have a constant appetite for news which needs to be fed or they very rapidly lose interest. To that extent to McCann's are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Although I think they were negligent in leaving 3 such young children alone I can't see any action being taken against them unless new information comes to light about this whole affair. Whether the child is found alive or not, I think they will be deemed by the relevant authorities to have suffered enough.

Many people have understandably stated their empathy for the McCanns yet I have far more sympathy for their children who were left alone for no good reason. Are they bad parents or was it just an error of judgement? I don't know, but I think many people just can't understand how 2 such well educated professional people could be so apparently blase about leaving such young children all alone, especially when they had the resources available to make doing that totally unnecessary.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I have two children as well, and since becoming a parent I hope I have learned to be a little less keen to stand in judgement over other parents and their choices.

There is a world of difference between a bad parent, and a good parent who makes a bad decision. I sincerely hope you are never in the position of having to defend yourself having made a bad decision, if the 'vast majority' of parents really are as swift to condemn as you seem to think.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

:tu:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

:clap:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hear hear mate......

Whatver people say, I think that they are irresponsible parents for doing this. The fact that they are supposedly intelligent enough to know better, and had the money to pay for child care services makes it even worse.

I am not saying that they deserved what happened as a result of their irresponsible parenting, but the majority of my sympathy and sadness lies with Maddie, not her parents.

Some people have said to me that I don't know how they treated their kids normally, so i should not criticise them. I ahave heard others say that they could be loving parents, and I don't deny that they arent.

However, their irresponsibility left an opportunity for their daughter to be abducted/murdered or her dying as a result of an accident. This is not the same as leaving your child upstairs for a few minutes or asleep in her room whilst your in the house as well, albeit in the garden. I can understand people having lapses and making errors of judgement in their parenting skills, but anyone in my opinion who leaves 3 under 4s at home alone (especially in a foreign country), whilst they are out wining and dining in a restaurant, is a poor example to good parenting.

This was a grossly irresponsible thing to do, and I would have no qualms with social services or even the police being involved as soon as they land in London.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

I don't think leaving under 4 year olds alone whilst you're out wining and dining can be classified as a bad decision. This was not the first time they had done it either, I'd call it poor parenting.

There is a difference between a bad decision and poor parenting, and in my opinion I dont think you can classify consistantly leaving your kids home alone is poor parenting, not bad decisions.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think there is anywhere near enough information about the McCann's family life and history in the public domain for you or anyone else to make such a judgement.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Well i don't think their needs to be any more information, there is nothing different about them to anyone in the sense that they shouldn't have left their kids alone.
What does their history matter? They went for dinner every night and left the kids in the room alone, maybe it's true what i've thought about 'highly intelligent' people- they usually have no common sense. Or they've lived such a sheltered life they didn't think it would happen to them, that's a bad decision which caused poor parenting.

If you took your kid swimming without armbands- and it drowned because you weren't watching them would that be a bad decision or poor parenting? Not putting the armbands on is a bad decision, not watching them is poor parenting. Kind of similar if you ask me.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Are you saying that leaving your kids alone on more than one occassion whilst you go out wining and dining is not a case of poor parenting? This wasn't a one of, it was a one off that their daughter got snatched, not the fact that they have left them alone on previous occasions.

I dont need to look at their history to come to my conclusion. Its an exapmle of poor parenting, and I stand by my judgement.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think there would need to be lots more information - more than any of us have any right to know, in fact.

Parenting is something that goes on every minute of every day, waking and sleeping, from the moment your child is born - you have at least one child yourself IIRC, surely you know this.

How anyone can presume to pass judgement on all of that based on the miniscule amount we know of the McCanns is totally beyond me.

Really, what is it with some people here? There seems to be some kind of desperate *need* to judge other people.

Here, if you want to pour scorn on someone, use this pair as your punchbag, at least they've been found guilty by a jury of wilfully and repeatedly setting out to harm their child:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/6939399.stm

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Chris,
Slightly harsh I feel !! People judge it's part and parcel of what what makes us humans (most of us)

I think a lot of it dwells down to the fact due to a set of parents incompetence (and which ever way it's cut, thats what it is) that there is an innocent little girl out there somewhere hopefully alive but as each day passes in my opinion there is less of a chance of finding here so. And whilst people are seeing McCann on televesion and in the papers more and more maybe some are starting to resent them for a situation which they could of all to easily prevented from occuring

I'm not a parent, I've never been married, nor even engaged (cant find a woman daft enough to have me) BUT I would lilke to think that if I had children of that age that I would always put their needs before mine. Regardless of the scenario.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Nobody is saying they're the worst parents ever/evil etc, but the McCann's keep saying they don't think they did anything wrong in leaving them alone. Wasn't there an onsite babysitting service they chose not to use? I'm not accusing them of child abuse, they're extrememly unlucky. And to me, if they just said yes we know we houldn't have left them alone blah blah then i wouldn't even be writing this post. They're basically saying it's still alright to do it. People do, and this doesn't happen, but this time it did- it's unlucky, but it wouldn't have happened if they didn't have their routine nightly of leaving them there.
Anyway, that's all i wanna say, cos i don't even know what to make of this whole saga.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I'm not saying that they weren't incredibly stupid in what they did. I'm just saying I am concerned at how easily some people slip from condemning a stupid incident - even a stupid chain of incidents - to condemning them as 'bad parents' which takes in far more than whether they think it's a good idea to leave their kids alone while they go to a restaurant that (they believe) is within reasonable eyeshot of the apartment.

And I don't know what to make of it either Pia, really I don't. On the one hand I want to shake them 'til their teeth rattle for being so stupid. But on the other hand I suspect deep down they *know* that whoever took their daughter, they will share some of the responsibility for the lifetime of trauma she will suffer after this - assuming, of course, she is still alive. They are hurting, and they are going to hurt for the rest of their lives. And if, on the remote off-chance, they or a member of their family does read this forum, then the last thing they need is to read a load of complete strangers who are lining up to say what thoroughly awful people they think they are.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

A US paper has an article which asks some difficult questions

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

To me a stupid incident would be something like leaving a sharp knife within reach of a child or something similar. In my mind this chain of events is much more than an incident. It's much much much more serious than that.

Both the parents are obviously intelligent people with one being a GP and the other being a Cardioligist if I remember correctly ? I dont however understand or comprehend how two highly proffesional intelligent would make a snap judgement on if their apartment was in 'reasonable eyeshot'

I can't see where any post where people have claimed that they are awful people. Irresponsible perhaps but not awful.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

My opinion has been consistant from the start

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

What they beleive to be reasonable and what is fact is totally different. Factually the apartment they left their kids in was not within reasonable 'eyeshot' of their restuarant. There wasn't a clear line of vision to their room, and it wasn't say 20 feet away

Assuminfg that they had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If i ever left my kids alone in a foreign country for any length of time your damn right i would expect to be judged and very harshly judged thing is i never did that because of how i feel so it's a non starter isn't it.

---------- Post added at 17:14 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

Oh and to me reasonable eyeshot of my kids when they are little more then toddlers is right in front of me with no obstruction of vision and sod all distance between them and me. Thats how i lived because as a parent thats what it means if you bring kids into this world you have a responsibility to them as a parent to always do your utmost to protect them until they are old enough to protect themself thats the main duty of a parent and they failed in that.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Firstly, this forum is read over the WHOLE cable network, and the McCann family/ relatives come from the Leicester area, and l would be very interested if they actually wrote an article for this forum, and there is every possibility that they could read what we are commenting on.

There is an assumption that she is probabley deceased, where is the corpse, the police have search the area, and now there are sniffer dogs from Yorkshire police over there, we do know that the police have a law, to state that they cannot reveal any details on the case, and this is what is causing problems with everyone.

There are witnesses who say that they saw a male person carrying a child from the scene, there are reports that they found blood in the flat, but we don't know whose blood it is, there has been reports that the Portugese polce have a poor record in child cases.

There are lots of children go missing everyday, and sadly these children end up in child slavery ( media stories state this).

we are as some forum members have said we are entitled to our opion, and l just hope she has not been abducted by a certain ' ring', as you will never find her, and l just pray that she comes home safely.:)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If i was a member of the family, i doubt i'd come across this forum unless it was mentioned in any mainstream media, i think there's that much wrote about this it's enough to keep them busy for an eternity.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I would not care if they saw what I have said. If I was stood in fron tof them and they asked me what I thought id tell them the same as ive said in forum.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yeah- a member of the family who apparently thought nothing of it, even though she reckons she was in that area because it was her turn to check on the kids (i read that somewhere). So i guess she didn't check on the kids then....
Which, if true, kinda makes me feel that it's a 'witness report' to back up the abduction theory.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I prefer to hope that this young girl with her whole life ahead of her is alive i won't use the word well as being taken from her natural parents put this girl in a state of being unwell. That as i understand it is the wish of 100% of the people on this forum and that sentiment has never changed. But the reality is that the parents have some hard questions to answer and until they do this will not just go away. If there are members of the family reading this forum then the thoughts of us all go out to them but that also doesn't mean the questions go away.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

In my opinion, what the McCann's did that evening (and previous evenings) far outweighs and negates any "good parenting" that they may have done in the past. They gambled...with their childrens wellbeing...and lost. It wasn't a "spur of the moment" decision. It wasn't an accident that happened while the parents were distracted. It was a cold, calculated, callous decision to leave 3 children under 4 years old, alone, in an unlocked, downstairs apartment. An apartment that they couldn't see from the tapas bar. An apartment where the chidren's bedroom was at the back of the apartment, overlooking a car lot. An apartment in a public road.

As mentioned many times near the beginning of this thread, it's not just the chance of abduction to worry about, but the chance of an accident, fire, etc. or the chance of one of the children waking up, frightened, needing the comfort of their Mum or Dad. But...nah, we'll ignore all those possibilities and go out & enjoy ourselves, without the kids getting under our feet!

It wouldn't be so bad if the McCann's said that what they did that night was wrong, or it was a stupid thing to do, but they haven't. According to them "at the worst, we were naive". They can't seem to bring themselves to accept any kind of resposibility for what happened to their child that night.

On the eve of the 100th day since her disappearance, the BBC news showed a report from Portugal. The reporter standing outside the apartment brings home just how cut-off from the holiday club the apartment really is.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Cold, callous and calculating?

Tell me, does it give you a warm glow inside as you hand down righteous judgement on someone you don't know and have never met?

Does it make you feel good about yourself?

Does it help you to think how much better you are than they are because you would never do anything so stupid?

I wonder.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

This article from the Daily Mail (:shocked:) shows just how close/far (delete as appropriate) the apartment is from the Tapas Bar. I believe it was referred to by Team McCann as like "eating in your back garden" :erm:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2007/08/32.jpg

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Do you really feel like judgement would be any kinder to us if we did something so incredibly stupid and doing it again and again goes beyond a simple mistake. How many incidents does it take for it to be bad parenting personally it does only take one incident that risks your kid in anyway whatsoever.

Would you be defending them Chris if the apartment had gone up in flames because they thought it was ok to leave those little kiddies on their own. For them to leave the kids in any sort of routine way was a no no you just don't do that these days i would love to have total faith in humanity but we all realistically know that **** lives and looks to do harm to our kids. I doubt very much if you have done anything like leaving your toddlers alone i know i havn't so yes people will judge and thats tough to be honest.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Which demonstrates an act - or acts - of magnificent stupidity.

It certainly *does not* justify a charge of being 'cold, callous and calculating'. If - and I mean, *if* - it ever turns out that the McCanns actually killed their daughter themselves, then, once it's all examined and proven in court, there will be opportunity to wave the pitchforks about and bay for their blood. But at this stage, that kind of self-righteous indignation just makes me sick.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

I'm not defending them. I am - as I have said, repeatedly, this afternoon - trying to establish what it is fair to accuse them of, and what is simply self-indulgent, self-righteous indignation on the part of some people who I am beginning to think get some kind of perverse sense of security and self-worth out of demonizing others.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

All these points now the press appears to have turned against them are points i made 3 months ago and got flamed by some and applauded by others for voicing my opinions.At no point have they changed. I would not ever dream of leaving my 11 year old without supervision, Yesterday I went into town on my bike for 20 minutes and left her with my neighbour (who has a daughter too) for supervision. Now if I had gone to town for 20 minutes and left her alone in the house and something happened to her then there is no question I would be held responsible. I do not think the parents are to blame for what happened but they were irresponsible and imo poor guardians of the most precious things in their lives . Then after the abduction/whatever happened they start jetting off around the world keeping it all in the press . I was like wtf is the pope gonna do? search the vatican? and while they jetted off they left the twins. Now if I had 3 kids and something happened to one of them there is no way on the face of the earth id leave my other kids no matter what but these pair did.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think you were getting flamed for your opinion so much as for being a little insensitive about your timing in offering it. The whole incident was rather raw and fresh as I remember.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

ok I do accept that but I find it very hippocritical (pointing at the press here) at how they have turned now time has passed. IMO the right time to get it all off your chest is when it is raw not months down the line. As I said months ago showing aborance for behaviour like this could stop it happening for all I know over this summer someone may have read my post and not left there children in similar circumstances and who knows something could have happened someone could be saved similar. Of course we wont know cuz it was averted maybe. No one ever got any benefits by being wrapped in cotton wool its a crap world out there no point sugar coating it

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Not sure if this is aimed at me. I'm not saying whether they were directly involved or not, but I have always believed that they were largely responsible for what happened.

That's not to say that I don't hope the child is found alive - I don't think anyone on here wants anything other than that.

My son will be 10 soon and we still monitor very closely what he does, where he goes, etc... The photo I linked to earlier is the first picture I've seen that demonstrates the distances we're talking about - and I'll admit I was shocked by how far away it appears they were from their children. I'd never consider that for my son, who is older than all of the McCann's kids put together.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think the restaurant was even close enough for a baby monitor to have signal was it? Another alternative they could have used but chose not to.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

This is a thread that is causing some raw nerves to be touched and while i do not subscribe to the theory doing the rounds that they killed the girl. I do and will continue to believe they have a case to answer for negligence and that that case should be prosecuted as it is done on a daily basis by social services in this country.

A great many people that do far less then the mc'canns did have to endure harse treatment from social services and have their parenting questioned i don't see why the mc'canns are any different to be honest. Fairness for all is what i want not a different set of rules for them and a set for the rest of us.

If that picture is accurate then to be honest that puts a whole new spin on things because i know i am getting old but it looks a hell of a lot more then 40 yards from their apartment and does not fall into the category that i would think anyone could call reasonable.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

How times change...

I grew up in the 70s. Me and a mate of mine took the train to go and visit a museum in the nearest city (10 miles away). I was 13.


For my first vacation without my parents I went cycling with a mate. We covered 1000 miles and 4 countries in three weeks. I was 16 at the time and unsupervised. Someone mentioned cotton wool earlier. I appreciate that we have moved on (seat belts weren't compulsory in the 70s either).

Neither of these examples were commonplace back then, but they weren't unheard of either. As cotton wool was mentioned earlier, I wonder: when is it acceptable for kids to strike out and explore the world these days?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

When they show a high enough level of maturity

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think I was only a little older than that when my mum let me and a friend, and my younger brother, take ourselves and our pocket money off to Southport for the day by train. We survived.

Of course, we had spent entire days out of her sight from much younger than that, exploring on our bikes.

I know the children in this case are much younger, but even so - times have changed, and not for the better IMO.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2007/08/31.jpg YouTube has joined the hunt for missing children. First lady Laura Bush and English soccer star David Beckham offer their own video testimonials in support of the channel and the effort to find Madeleine McCannhttp://www.youtube.com/dontyouforgetaboutme
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292859,00.html

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I completely agree. As a parent I'm torn between wanting to give my son the level of freedom that I had at his age yet wanting to protect him from harm. Admittedly I grew up in a sleepy village in Worcestershire, whereas we live in the 'burbs of a large town, but the change in geography isn't solely to blame.

However, do people think that it's really more dangerous today than it was in the 70's or 60's... or is it just that the media report things more openly these days?

I ask this because my missus was very surprised at the amount of "bad news" that is reported in the UK news on a daily basis when she first moved here. The French media is less obsessed with murders and car crashes and rapes than the British media is, so it was a bit of a culture shock for her initially. Now, however, she realises that Blighty is no more dangerous a place than France really, it's just that violence appears more apparent and openly discussed over here than it is over there.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think it is a case that the risks are no higher but they are more widely known now then they were. I think anyone over a certain age can remember playing in the countryside and going on little adventures things we simply would not allow our kids to do today because we are more aware of what lurks. It is a shame but i fear it is something that has gone and will not come back and that is the most painful part of it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

A lot of kids aint street aware like they used to be cuz they spend a lot of their time on video games and such. Its not like when I was a lad and we were off as a group (now this makes a difference the group saftey in numbers) Also depending on where you live now certain areas are not as friendly as others. My estate for example the end I live on is quiet and most of the kids are well enoigh behaved but you do not have to go far to find the rougher family areas where drug dealers live and their kids are less than savoury

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

[quote=Gareth;34373044]

However, do people think that it's really more dangerous today than it was in the 70's or 60's... or is it just that the media report things more openly these days?



I think it is the latter Gareth, there have always been perverts around. As a girl, when me and my chum went to the cinema, there would always be some old man would come and sit beside us, and no matter what the weather, they would always carry a raincoat, which they draped over their knees. They would then offer us sweets....I don't need to tell you what they would be doing when we turned to get one! :eek:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hmm we seem to be forgetting that there is only one person responsible for this and they are entirely responsible and that is the person that took her, the parents certainly made it easier for him but that doesn't put them on par with him

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yeah - IF someone took her. There seems to be a lot of other possibilities flying round at the minute.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

What do you mean if, some one definitely took her and those possibilities flying around are pure speculation, until any evidence or substance are added to them I don't see what good commenting on them will do

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Cold...what they did that night was hardly warm & affectionate.
Callous...as I said above, what if one of the children had woken up, frightened and crying for their Mum or Dad, who were't there to comfort them? They had no regard for the feelings of their children, so yes...callous.
Calculating...they didn't leave their children alone by accident. They weighed up the pro's & con's and made a decision.
It certainly does not give me a warm glow, quite the opposite. I am commenting on the facts provided to us. Facts provided by the McCann's themselves. I don't see how knowing them personally, or meeting them will change the way I feel about what they did that night (and previous nights). I have formed my opinion of them by their own actions & words. As I have said previously, a bit of humility, or a recognition of some kind of responsibility from the McCann's would go a long way to change my opinion of them. It wasn't just what they did on the night, but their subsequent, sometimes flippant, comments that has helped form my opinion.
No. Not at all.
No. It doesn't help me in any way. We are all individuals. Some aspects of our lives we perform better or worse than others. We all make mistakes, but...I can say this with 100% certainty, I would not have left those children alone in that apartment as the McCann's did. Never, in a million years. I honestly don't know how they could have done it. I really don't...and I consider it to be more than just stupidity.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

if she is found alive and returned to her parents, will the UK authorities prosecute the parents for this act of gross negligence and have the child put into care?

i doubt it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yes, as I said, they are largely responsible for what happened.

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

In the absence of any hard evidence, it's pure speculation that she was abducted by someone too. :shrug:

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

Nobody knows yet. According to the Daily Express last month the CPS were supposed to be "having “informal discussions� to see whether any offence was committed. And in Portugal a campaign has begun in an attempt to see the couple jailed for neglect."

We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Are you really saying that they bare more responsibility for her disappearance than the person that took her?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Did I say that?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

While you are all entitled to your opinions just remember it’s a small world and you know how good cable forum is indexed by the search engines. So before you put your four pennies worth please think what the McCann family must be going through and they may just see what is quite hurtful to them.

Madeleine was brought into this world with more than just love she is a test tube baby, that take more than just love it takes years of being mucked about with and the husband doesn’t get away scott free, I know I have the tea shirt. So please think before you post, don’t let your opinion upset someone that’s already totally devastated with the loss of their little girl.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yes you did, by definition largely responsible= almost completely responsible

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I do not care what they think of me if they see what ive said and it hurts tough . Maddie is the only McCann I care about.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Rubbish. Largely != the majority.

By saying they are largely responsible I am saying that they are responsible on a large scale. Whether that's because the child was abducted - the chances of an abduction happening would have been massively reduced if they had taken their children with them to the restaurant or simply hadn't gone at all - or because they are in some way more directly involved in the child's disappearance is irrelevant. They are still largely responsible.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

One mistake, while (in this case) tragic, does not make them bad parents. We don't know them. They could be absolutley amazing parents.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Seriously I can't be bothered to argue over your definition of the word largely. That said I agree with the end of your post, a parents most important job is to protect their children, they failed and in doing so they made it easy for her to be taken, they will have to live with that for the rest of their days.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Amazing parents would not leave their 3 children (including a set of babies) alone whilst on holiday, in a different country, while they are off wining and dining. Amazing parents would then not try to justify their actions by saying "its not different to eating in your garden whilst your kids are aqsleep upstairs", or by saying it wasnt something they've not done before....

Amazing parents, in this case I dont think so... amazingly stupid would be the term id use for ALL parents who did something like this, whether their kids ended up 'abducted' or not.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Actually, I said they *could* be amazing parents. I didn't say they were. WE DON'T KNOW. They made ONE mistake. ONE. One incident, however tragic, does not necessarily reflect the quality of their parenting.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Stuart leaving them once might at a stretch be a mistake to routinely leave them alone does not to me say good parenting whatsoever and in this country if you routinely leave your kids alone social services call it neglect simple and in the UK you don't even have to do it for a week for social services to call it that.

They have a case to answer and they havn't in fact i am amazed that they have so far failed to accept the blame for this and only call themselves naive many of us have other terms in mind.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I find it strange that the British press has waited 99 days before publishing their own photos, and mentioning the real distance between the tapas bar and the apartment. They were there within hours of the story breaking, but never published photos or questioned anything the McCann's said. Almost as if they were being gagged.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

This is what i don't understand. They have routinely left their kids alone while they go out to eat and even worse, to date, I have not even heard them say that leaving kids alone is wrong. All thats been said is that they've made a mistake.

Good parents do not leave their kids alone over and over while they go out alone.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Err, have we been told they did this over and over, or are you (and others) assuming they did?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I recall the pictures of the apartment and the distance to the restaurants quite soon after Maddie went missing in one of the Sunday papers (could have been the Mail).

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...70&expand=true

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ger/article.do

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

as i attempted to say earlier, but was edited (apologies).
if you leave yer stuff lying about unattended, someone will nick it.

applies to kids too.

if they hadnt gone out and someone had broken in looking to abduct a kid and been faced with angry parents, it woulda been different.
if they're taken the kids with them and someone breaks in...no kid to abduct.

just cos you're on hols doesnt mean you get a vacation from parental responsibility.

they're negligent and far too blase about admitting they actually did anything wrong.
if they were a chav/charv family, the papers would be full of stories about how disgusting it was that they left their kids unattended, even for one night.

but as soon as anyone voices this opinion, you get shot down saying its not helping or 'how could you? its a childs life'.
if the parents were with the kid, she wouldnt have been taken.
how much money and man power and hours have gone into this investigation?
they should be made accountable for something.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

It is as stated above a matter of record Stuart that they did leave the kids more then once or twice and established a pattern of behaviour for any **** that was watching as obviously at least one was.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

One 'mistake' clearly does reflect the quality of their parenting - they went out for dinner whilst leaving 3 children with the combined age of 7 alone in their apartment.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

782 Posts later and some people are still arguing about the same thing, over and over again. We know the parents shouldn't have gone to dinner, leaving their very young children alone, this has been said throughout the thread. It's becoming a very stupid and tiresome debate now that it's becoming past its use by date. Such threads are soon subject to imminent closure.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

But even the mainstream news is still making the same points!

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Surely you can't possibly be thinking of closing this thread? The debate has been very civilised considering the strength of feelings involved.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

A thread with 5316 pointless posts about what music people are listening to, but that's ok. A proper discussion on what is just about the most discussed topic for years, and it's tiresome? Surely the only time it's past its date is when the case is closed to a point of nothing left to discuss. If you don't like the subject just don't contribute/subscribe to it, why stop everyone else.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I concur. Even though I disagree with some of the opinions stated by some, I am enjoying this thread.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think it would be wrong to close the thread to be honest at the end of the day it is an ongoing news subject and as long as that is the case threads will keep popping up better surely to keep it in one place.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

No offence but if you close the thread you will be doing so just because you want to not because its against the sites terms and conditions that would be unjustified

The press has turned on the parents it seems dirt is being dished. I feel its crazy this didnt happen at the start. We all know what the press is like so why pretend to be nice? This thread had gone quiet till the press bought it back to the fore

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

As anyone seen todays edition of the Daily Express, it claims in there, that the police have seized a car, that was used on the night of the abduction, with one or two people involved, and it you read it carefully, it does state that a British driver disappeared just after ' Maddie ' was abducted, and he is being followed by detectives, and this is being done by BRITISH POLICE, doing the investigation, it also states that the Portegese Police will not reveal what they are doing, l also compliment this forum and its members for there openess on this article, it goes to show the frankness that we can express, about something, that is a very touching subject at the moment, l hope she is still alive.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

also, 700+ posts later, what more do we really know about this incident?
very little.

kid still gone
no sign of her
no ransom
no evidence to link any real suspects

just kid, disappears, not heard of for 100 days & no one seems to know where she's gone.

i too hope she is still alive but depending on who took her and why, she might be in a lot more pain than if she were dead.
Soundshorrible i know but i'd hate to think of the child at the mercy of some evil whatever you wanna call them, like the little girl who's parents were just sentenced for her torture and death a few days ago.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Mick just so we are clear are you posting the above as a moderator.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I agree, the only instance in which i'd rather wish her dead would be if she was suffering unbearable mental or physical pain.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think it's a gimme slug that he was speaking as a mod.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

No it is not because I want to. You, nor nobody else knows what 'I want' so don't make silly assumptions about what I desire. I will tell you why this thread should be closed and it is going to be closed if people don't bring up new points. (Bit late for this but there is always room for fresh debate).

It is because it is going round in pointless circles. Need I remind people of the terms of use of this site and in particular:-

We may, for content management purposes, close a thread. This would usually be because the discussion in the thread is not moving along, users are not covering new points, or that the discussion is going around in circles.

Our terms of use are not negotiable, so some of you should not be telling me or arguing with me, what the team can and cannot do. If some of you continue to tell me or any other team member, what we can or cannot do - I shall start to suspend accounts.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Sounds a bit strong to me end of the day how can we discuss new points when there are bugger all new points to discuss. Underlying cause of this incident is something people want to talk about and discuss and compared to many other net sites the discussion has been done here quite calmy and quite politely.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

TO MICK, CABLE FORUM TEAM, l agree entirely agree with your you are saying, it is now 100 days since she went missing, what we should be doing, is thinking about what WE could be doing, some forum members must have gone to Portugal when this happened or since this happened, and maybe saw something OR was in the SAME restuarant at the time, or when they were coming home, or went to work, and your mates bragged about something like this (and you know how much we bragged when we are with our workmates), or when you are in the supermarket queue or even at the coffee machine queue, and there was a couple with a young girl, who seemed ege, any small detail can help in this matter, lets look positive at this, and don't forget there are also other children of various ages and even grown ups who go missing each day, and this is who we should be thinking about and the worries it gives to the parents - think about this when you come home from the pub tonight,:)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I said that in a balanced way Mick again in this thread your coming at me in an unreasonable way I thought we had moved forward from this?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Arthur do you seriously think that people that were there at the time have not done everything you have said a longtime ago.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Also may I add at no point did I tell you what your allowed to do or not. I simply said closing this thread would be unjustified you appear to have justified why you would close it and therefore I stand corrected