Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many shares do you need to get into the AGM/ask awkward questions, and how much are they?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe it`s 1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Closed at £2.22 each on Friday.
http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=bt&m=L&d=

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------

Here's my eight pennyworth for the ICO, submitted via their feedback form this evening.

I should have the revised version of inphormationdesk live tomorrow evening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm...
thought I might ask some awkward questions of my own but the ICO website seems to be misbehaving...

Runtime Error
Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps the Phorm/Webwise servers are down there also ;) (Who knows what side they are on?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok, who hacked it?

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Truely scary!!! I watched 2hrs worth of George Orwells worst predictions presented by Steven Rambam a private investigator that uses these Orwellian databases to track and profile people. :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

Will people wake up and pay attention to this nightmare? No they won't not until it's too late, then they will have to resign themselves to virtual slavery. If you think it's OTT now for someone to get a criminal record and have his DNA extracted for leaving his dustbin open a few inches (nowadays) just wait and see what is going to pass for normal in another 10yrs time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just watched the 1st hour. I feel you are dead right about the apathy of people leading to their virtual slavery. The apathetic response of many people both on and offline to the dpi for profit issue has made me dispair at times.:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is truely scary. :shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you know what they keep on saying if you got nothing to hide why worry about it all, who every came up with that spin needs to wake up cos now its spread about and taken as the norm it`s already to late.:dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't know for certain if I can make the AGM but have secured two proxy votes from mum and partner how will the inside demonstration take form nice to let the shareholders know that we mean business and the voice should also be heard inside the AGM ,perhaps they will employ the mods as bouncers they are best at stopping anti BT comments and criticism.Whats the chances of being thrown off the forum and out of the AGM in the same season. ROFLOL
TGLS

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just come across this, i find this far worse

http://stopvirgin.movielol.org/

Just looked at that video.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am all for girls with nice cleavage helping us out, where can we get one ??




Am I missing somthing.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How could I miss this the second highlight of the week adn I was in Wales on a peace battery recharge session...

http://service-update.theplanet.com/

See BT shares have been going down since the storm over phorm.
http://miranda.hemscott.com/ir/bt/ts...t-6M-T-T-F.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you have to love BT,

not a scooby, have they

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At the moment the list includes:

loss of BT Webwise http://webwise.bt.com servers when Fasthosts went down (now back)

loss of BT Webwise www.webwise.bt.com servers in Houston - still down
broken links all over their site because of the BT Webwise pages changing to php but links not being updated from old *.html format

BT webwise contact forms sending contact form data via ww3.phorm.com or 121media.com complete with BT customer details and bt.com userid full email address because of poor cookie security on bt.com

reorganising the hosting and branding of the BT Webwise contact forms into custhelp.com in a panic last weekend but not solving the cookie problem

having overseas US partners for the BT Webwise and customer help operation, but neglecting to get them to sign up to the Safe Harbor agreement (Phorm, 121Media, ThePlanet.com, RightNowTech, GoDaddy)

Webwise trials about three months delayed, each time a date is given they don't make it in time.

No answers to any of the above or at least, none that they care to make public or even tell their customers.

Yes - I think you could say - they don't have a scooby.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many BT shares will be in our control I will be representing 220 :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Forgive me if this has already been noted.

This reply to Earl of Northesk refers to a PDF file I hadn't seen before.

http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.pdf (previously, I was only aware of this extract http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.htm). The text seems identical.

What is the Home Office link to cryptome.org? Why do Home Office documents seem to 'magically' appear on this site and nowhere else? (not even the Home Office own FoI pages).

The reply to the Earl of Northesk states
"However, a copy of that note has been published at http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.pdf."

Published? That site is registered in the USA. Cryptome, 251 West 89th Street , New York. What about the Home Office site for heavens sake?

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So: One had reason to be suspicious of unusual activity on one's Internet connection.

One had sought advice from one's provider (BT)

That advice had been that one had a virus or had experienced some other failure

BT had, for whatever reason, NOT advised that one had been used in any kind of trial programme and there may be otherwise unexplained activity on one's connection.

BT had, for whatever reason, NOT advised that the efects seen were due to the workings of the trial programme.

One had, as a response to the advice from BT specifically given in answer to one's questions, spent money on professional services to diagnose and correct the fault, on the basis of the information from BT.

This money was needlessly wasted.

One has therefore suffered a demonstrable material loss as a result of BT's activities.

Sue the buggers!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What the **** are the Home Office doing publishing documents on Cryptome?

"Cryptome welcomes documents for publication that are prohibited by governments worldwide, in particular material on freedom of expression, privacy, cryptology, dual-use technologies, national security, intelligence, and secret governance -- open, secret and classified documents -- but not limited to those."

I feel another FoI request, and a letter to my MP flying out of the printer.

The Home Office should not be using Cryptome.org as their publishing mechanism.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You also need to find out whether this Website is covered under the Safe Harbor Rules, if not then I think a direct complaint to the Relevant Minister is necessary!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: fluffykins I am sure BT will get the message since their share prices are falling aswell as Phorm and some shareholders are aobut to start asking questions BT would rather they didn't.

Already had a few email replies from Ian at BT just waiting for the reply he said Emma would send me if it fails to arive will contact him again asking why.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dephormation: cryptome were not leaked that information. The site is just referencing a post made on the chiark mailing list here:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/ukcrypto/

The message is in the March 2008 archive.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope those attending INside the shareholder meeting are well briefed as to the tactics that are likely to be used by the board to avoid any difficult questions and even remove those who may be thought to be disrupting the proceedings.

I suggest contact with other "protest" groups like Greenpeace who have experience of such things at oil company AGM's or those who have disrupted Bank AGMs. You have to decide whether you want to "ask the questions" or just get bounced out of the meeting in a publicity worthy way, or simply be out-manouevered by the board, in a way that is not at all news-worthy.

I'm sure they will have some tips about how to get the result you are after.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The usual attack by one of the drones is "Have you got something to hide?"

Answer: "Yes my dignity, you obviously don't have any"

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------







WATCH THIS IF YOU DARE!

You should try and force yourself to watch the 2nd and 3rd parts of the presentation. Episode 3 is mostly a Q & A session which is very interesting.


Privacy is Dead: Get Over It presentation given to the 2600.com-HOPE conference

Presented by Steven Rambam, licensed private investigator


Part1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1634316293369601334&q=&hl=en

Part2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7465299647843576329&q=&hl=en

Part3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5301393266084289975&q=&hl=en



!Warning! Video hosted on the enemies server, and they will profile you! (:erm: use a proxy)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've said this before, I think that's slander...any lawyers reading this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They must have been leaked that info, else how would they have it? ;)

Take your point about the earlier mention in the ukcrypto lists.

Never the less, the wording of the reply to Earl of Northesk's question suggests that the Home Office are aware the document was published to Cryptome, even referring the Earl of Northesk to it, yet the same document is not published on their own FoI pages.

I'd like an explanation please.

Update; Re-reading ukcrypto... So this doc was allegedly initially circulated by Simon Watkin, but not published on the HO FoI site. It magically 'appears' on Cryptome, and the HO now refer enquiries to Cryptome? Hmmm.
Update 2; 'HEAD' request to Cryptome suggests it was last updated Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:38:37, GMT shortly before it was mentioned on the UK Crypto mailing list.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

?
my answer is "NO i have nothing to hide, I JUST OBJECT TO BEING SPIED ON"

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry BF I meant i'd only just watched the 1st hr. Intend to watch tthe others when i've got time. SCARY STUFF!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I fancy taking them for a few quid and getting the rodent fired..:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PIA Update

A lot of people have been sending me PMs asking about the PIA Final Report so I have spoken to Simon on the phone this afternoon and he told me 80/20 Thinking will be finished with the PIA no later than 13th June 2008 as they have other commitments beyond this date which will make it impossible to work on the PIA after this date.

He did also ask me to mention though that despite 80/20 Thinking finishing the PIA this doesn't necessarily mean we will see it. It is up to Phorm to publish the PIA and 80/20 Thinking certainly would not be allowed to publish it independently. Simon is going to try and get an expected date of publish from Phorm though and will get back to me.

I have had a hell of a day so far today answering a lot of questions and emails, so please forgive me if I am a little slow to reply to any queries. I will be away in London tomorrow and most of Wednesday so it is unlikely I will be able to respond to anything during that time.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would expect the PIA not to be made public in full just selected quotes that suit phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm still on page 488 after a week off, so if this has been mentioned in the previous several hundred posts - apologies :)

For soundbyte use -> 198Phorm :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As long as we get confirmation from 80/20 that the PIA has been delivered to Phorm, I would not be bothered if it never saw the light of day. In fact I would be highly delighted if the full text was not published - it would be confirmation that it was detrimental to Phorm's case and we would be able to have endless hours speculating on how critical it was.

If it is along the lines we expect, Phorm will be in a lose, lose situation: publishing would damage their case, not publishing would damage their case.

What they will probably do is publish selective quotes. We need to have ready examples from the past where they have selectively quoted in such a way that it changed the meaning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regards that Home Office PDF advice document, I've done some digging;

11 March 2008 16:58 - Nicholas Bohm first mentions receiving a Home Office document on UK Crypto
11 March 2008 17:38:37 GMT - last modified date of ho-phorm.pdf (using 'HEAD' request to Cryptome)
11 March 2008 18:02:53 GMT - Simon Watkin pastes the entire text of the PDF document into a post to UK Crypto
11 March 2008 18:19:59 GMT - last modified date of ho-phorm.htm (using 'HEAD' request to Cryptome). A cut/pase of Watkin's post.
11 March 2008 18:27:01 GMT - First mention of the PDF on UK Crypto mailing list by Dr Richard Clayton


"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time" Abraham Lincoln

"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on" George W. Bush

:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the update.

As it is up to Phorm to publish the PIA I expect it will either not be or as Deko said ... I would expect the PIA not to be made public in full just selected quotes that suit phorm. However, it would be in their interest to publish the full article.

Hopefully there will be a possibility of it getting 'leaked' at some future date should it not see the light of day.

How very true and something I had not thought of.

Publish and be damned....
Don't publish and be damned...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would be worth trawling the net for all the instances where the Ernst and Young report or the interim PIA is quoted and/or where reference is made to the forthcoming late stage PIA, and then pressing the author pubicly for publication of the text they were touting in that previous post/article/website. Might as well make it as embarrassing for them as possible.

We will certainly be chasing BT to "reassure" us with the full text of the PIA which of course they won't be able to do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dephormation the super slueth :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i have started writing the unofficial PIA, on thing that seems to recur is comments about the ernst and young report only looking at US law for privacy not outside the US, and also that there needs to be another privacy audit to ensure the product / technology complies with all the relevant EU laws??

it's interesting when you start delving under the covers

just the bits i have so far are more negative than positive

the trick is trying to keep it balanced and not looking at things from a purely negative aspect so it will be taken as being objective, not just written to rubbish the product

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Heres one instance where there is mention, and anticipation, of the publication of a full PIA “in March 2008″
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...e-phorm-storm/

To be honest, considering the length of time it is taking, between the actual assessment and the latest publish date (June 13th), which is approximately two months, I would question whether the PIA will be relevant bearing in mind the developments in the area of privacy during that time.

Nicholas Bohm's legal analysis, 23rd April, is published.
Richard Claytons third draft of the webwise system, 18th May, is published.
...Shortly afterwards it transpires there are FOUR redirections occurring! (Fourth draft?)
The way in which webwise is to be delivered (by BT) for the trial has changed several times in light of the ICO's revised statement (it should be opt-in), is hosted outside the BT network (and outside the UK at one point)
The EU Commission states its position in respect of privacy and Phorm.
... the fact that there has to be explicit informed consent from ALL parties - not just acceptance of terms and conditions as suggested by the incompetent Home Office.

Are any of these points likely to be taken into account and feature in the final document?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can anyone planning to attend the AGM as a shareholder or proxy holder please contact me by PM so we can discuss some tactics and how to deal with any security that might attempt to eject you from the meeting.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

may be not, but i am in mine

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am hoping to get some press credentials ready for the BT AGM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was sure Alexander said Simon had an agreement if Phorm released part of the PIA report all had to be released, would be interesting to find out if this is true and if 80/20 could make it public if only snippets arrived online that made Phorm look good.

On another note reading on phorm god knows why I still read all i find I have come across this link.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/17042008/323...cy-battle.html

If you click on all the ISPs that are planning to implement Phorm have had drops in the share prices.

Does that not tell the ISPs just maybe this is wrong for the companies incase you want to cut through the Kent BS.
BT http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=BT-A.L
VM http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=VMED
CPW http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CPW.L
just for good measure the one in America using the phorm look alike spy http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CTL


If you can stand reading the BS enjoy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

in this case Pete it wasnt officially published as such, hence the later "...not ment for publication" etc and the responses Florence posted here.

see "Home Office endorsement for Cryptome Richard Clayton "
on the threads here
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...ypto/2008-May/

they were as suprised as you that the HO were endorsing Cypto, their nemesis it appears. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed. I've no doubt it wasn't officially published.

The bit I'm keen to understand; why are the Home Office providing links to a site like that in official written answers? And not publishing this material on their own web site?

Is it simply coincidence that leaked documents 'not intended for publication' appear on Cryptome at precisely the same time as a Home Office staff member is posting precisely the same text to UK crypto? I do hope so.

Because if there is a (direct or indirect) link between the Home Office and Cryptome... that's rather a serious problem for the Home Office isn't it?

:)

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed and something I think Simon needs to respond to and ot witht he gov normal it isnt me gov stance...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think its fair to say that if you compare VM's share price with the NASDAQ (where VM is listed in the US) over a period of the last two/three months, its fair to say that its shares have largely been in line with the NASDAQ's overall performance.

Whether their shares will be affected by a confirmed implementation of Phorm or similar system is yet to be seen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is anyone compiling a list of questions for the AGM, assuming you gain access and have the opportunity to ask?
You could also request details of the 'significant due dilligence' in the area of security and legality which is so frequently mentioned, conducted on behalf of BT by Dun & Bradstreet.



There is something affoot on the webwise.com site too...
yesterday I was accessing http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/ where I could physically switch webwise off and on (despite it supposedly not being live). Today the same folder returns... 'Forbidden You don't have permission to access /privacy/opt/ on this server.'
I am trying to access today through a Virgin connection, yesterday I was at work.
More changes to the opt-in opt-out I guess or is it that VM customers connected via the VM network are denied access?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just reading the full (ish, note section 1 seems to be missing)

look at point 21, "consent of the ISP user and web page host would make that interception clearly lawful" followed by "the implied consent of a web page host (as indicated in para 15) MAY stand in the absense of any specific express consent"

para 15 says "it may be argued that section 3(1)(b) is satissfied in such a case because the host or publisher who makes a web page available for download from a server impliedly consents to those pages being downloaded"

there is a difference to me about being downloaded by an end user and it being profiled for profit by K*nt and his spyware

peter

---------- Post added at 17:50 ---------- Previous post was at 17:46 ----------


are they getting ready for trials?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Houston/Phorm end of BT Webwise went down yesterday as the servers lost power due to an explosion. No comment!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was accessing http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/ even though www.webwise.bt.com was down. They are hosted on different servers.

Could anyone not on a BT or VM connection try to access?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They wont care about the downward trend on the shares which look like a copy of each other since they had dealings with a known spyware outfit, cos they been told it will go up once it`s running, but it be the customers be doing to running to another isp pdq, when they find out they cannot stop the adverts spamming their screen when all their normal blocks and stuff fail to stop it, and may break their surfing all together by using a host block of the ip`s from where they been served from.

but what we care hey we all be moving on to a new isp.

my children`s data is not to be profiled, you say you cannot know who we all are using the internet, so that goes for how old they are as well, you must give full informed information including that if you opt in children will be profiled as well which is not going to be legal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is possibly how 80/20 have done it:

In the c4 News report on the Public Meeting which contained an interview with Simon Davies (with his 80/20 cap on). He basically said that Phorm could work if it was on an opt-in basis with the customer's consent but he was being far from negative:

"I believe that there is a solution where we can create an opt-in situation where there's lots of informed consent, a lot of trust building and people are galvanised in the process and companies will make money"

When I first watched the video I thought - he's on Phorm's side - let's hope Phorm think the same because that is probably going to be the conclusion drawn in 80/20 Thinking's PIA.

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think any suspicion that the fall in value of BT and other shares is anything to do with Phorm is pure speculation. BT is a huge organisation and Phorm falls a miniscule part, many shares have been falling in recent days due to the state of the stock market and world economies in general. I imagine those attending the AGM (which I shall not be attending either inside or outside) have far more on their minds than Phorm.

The state of Phorm shares of course is another matter...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Forbidden here

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And forbidden via my work connection (Be).

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My apologies - I missed that it was the Webwise site and not BT webwise that you were talking about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would appear then that Phorm are playing around with the opt-in opt-out pages. The pages to switch webwise on/off were standard html and probably the ones that set cookies. Unfortunately i never checked to see if cookies were being set but then I was on a corporate network.

For those interested, here is a link to the Dun & Bradstreet website.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm on a BT connection and get a 403 Forbidden for http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/

Regards...

T

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Notice of the event has been sent to the UKCrypto mailing list by Mr Nicholas Bohm

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...ne/084761.html

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It may have already been mentioned but can we set up some form of online petition whereby people who cannot attend the event on the 16th can add their name to the petition demanding a criminal investigation to be handed in at the Metropolitan Police station.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i was thinking something slightly different.

if most people have access to a PC or mobile phone cam then they could make a short (no longer than 30 seconds or 1 minute max) video clip and upload it to something like Youtube and then link that to a current.TV thread with your transcipt of your video and other comments you want to say,linked from here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes I think a "Video Petition" is an excellent idea, we could even set up a YouTube group specifically for it. In fact I will do so right now. How very 21st Century :)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:54 ----------

http://www.youtube.com/group/AntiPhorm

I would suggest people start their videos stating their name (first name only I suggest) and their ISP and then go on to their complaint and any solutions (such as they will be leaving their ISP if the deployment of Phorm goes ahead).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

also, if you dont have access to a cam, or want to stay somewhat anonymous, as in not record your voice and/or show a picture of yourself, then you can still have your say by using something like this simple rebol front end to a text to speech engine.

http://www.rebol.net/plugin/demos/new-demos/speak.html

and then save it off as a wave sound file once you have tuned it to speak properly (phonetic spelling sounds better for some words etc)in the voice of your choice.

i would suggest you also include some static pictures to make your final anonymous "Video Petition", "video protest" (anyone know of a good free app for taking the wave and including pictures to make your video from windows and linux ?).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

nothing in the london papers today alex, got the standard, londonlite and londonpaper,

missed the metro on the way up as to late

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have been in correspondence with Paul Whitehouse (FIPR's advisory board member - ex police) with regards the best way of presenting our case file to the police. The case will be presented to the City of London police as they are the force with jurisdiction over BT HQ.

He has also provided me with some very useful advice regarding witness statements for inclusion with the case file.

If anyone knows they were a victim of the trials either in 2006 or 2007 please could you contact me via pm as soon as possible. Furthermore, if anyone consulted on issues during this phase which were related to the trials (i.e. technicians who attempted to discover the nature of the problems user experienced) their witness statements would also prove useful, so please contact me.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex, if the PIA is supressed and Kent quotes out of context, do you know if Simon will be allowed to correct these statements?

Just to make it clear, if you have got security after you, run around a little and keep saying "Don't tase me bros". Educational video of doing it right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE:erm:

Unfortunatley you will get tased, but your pain will be our win ;)

---------- Post added at 23:18 ---------- Previous post was at 23:00 ----------

BT trial of Phorm to go ahead despite planned AGM pickets:

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/ne...ckets-368.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They have been saying "the next few weeks" for the last few months.

Erm, the whole point of data protection legislation and regulations is to prevent companies from "taking advantage" of their customers.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surley some suitable young lady would love to wear a sash with "Miss Inphormed" on it :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IMHO they've got the same chance of launching Webwise by the AGM as Kent Ertugrul is the love child of Elvis.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And why do the media continue to publish that...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What Samknows states is a pile of sh*t*. Its fairly obvious BT (Bl**dy Thickh**ded) is going to go ahead with the trials. After all the recent public (VERY none legal) trials and tribulations they must be dying to do something that is nearer to the none legal definition. Problem is: It's still not legal. Going by the saying your only as good as your last ....(fill in the gaps). Anything they do must be slightly less illegal than the previous very illegal previous trials.

The big problem is: illegal is illegal. 1 per cent illegal is not much different to 100 per cent illegal.

If I murder 1 innocent. I am guilty of murder. If I murder 100 innocent people I am still guilty of murder. The question should be asked. Why was I allowed to murder 99 other people.

ICO Please respond!!!! #

YOU ARE FAILING YOUR REMIT

Phorm is illegal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just read that samknows press article again...

So BT have said the trial is an initial roll out

[1] Isn't the unique ID number 'personal' to the user and thus the user is 'identifiable' to the system?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another article:

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16105

I should be getting a link to yet another article later tonight.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And here they are:
http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html
http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

and a cookie was set...
OPTED_OUT
YES
webwise.net/
1024
3592440064
30081716
4226224960
29934865
*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hugo Drayton, Phorm's UK CEO :

"ISPs are the Internet and they're being expected to roll out ever better networks to support functions that they do not gain from"

He got that from Simon Davies:

"There's an argument that what Phorm and other similar companies are doing is necessary because people are demanding more services and more bandwidth and they're not prepared to pay the price so they'll sacrifice their privacy - I don't believe that."

Well ISP's... that's what you get when you knock down prices to win customers and as a result over-subscribe the available bandwidth in the hope that 90% of them will only go online to check their email twice every week! And now they want the full service you promised you're going to rape them?

****Wits!

:mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

given that its apparently in vouge to be spying in theboardroom with stories of HP and yesturdays http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...spying-scandal
"Vodafone accused of spying

The sort of thing that got HP into hot water

By Tony Dennis: Monday, 02 June 2008, 10:55 AM

were Vodafone immediately issued this statement ... "Vodafone is completely confident it never deliberately or knowingly conducted any investigation in contravention of the UK Data Protection Act or other laws."

given the upcoming BT AGM, perhaps some visiting shareholders ;) should be asking for a simular statement from the BT board and executive.

have or are any boardroom members, or any of the BT investors that were using any BT retail Broadband or other types of electronic data connections (with installed and active Phorm gifted Deep Packet Interception or other unnamed interception kit) being spy on or otherwise, intercepted, collected or processed in any way, at any time, including the prior 2006/2007, or upcoming Phorm/webwise trials.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the tip, I'll investigate this morning.

regards
Pete.

---------- Post added at 08:56 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

Can confirm the analysis;

Opt out:-

Domain: .webwise.net
Cookie: OPTED_OUT = YES
Path: /
Expiry: 2 years

Opt In:-

Host:a.webwise.net
Cookie: uid= base64 encoded value
Path: /services/
Expiry: 12 months

If this isn't mirrored on a BT site, I'd suspect it was more to do with a demo to another client... possibly USA?

Either way, Dephormation is setting the right opted out cookie (do not rely on Dephormation as a long term solution... find a new ISP).

Pete.

---------- Post added at 09:01 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Looking at the code on that site, there's a possibility BT users will get sent to "http://bt.webwise.com" after opting out.

REMINDER: This is a Phorm operated third party web site with BT branding

Anyone able to confirm?

Pete.

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 ----------

For anyone using Dephormation v2.0, note it logs only cookie sending not cookie setting so you may not see the cookies being set during the Webwise opt in/out process.

Cookie sending is the most important bit (which is logged).

But I can see I need to add cookie setting for completeness.

Pete.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

For non-techs bt.webwise.com === www.phorm.com. You'll find if you paste the IP address for bt.webwise.com (http://89.145.112.31/) into your browser you actually get the Phorm website.

==================================

C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 8\VC>dig bt.webwise.com

; <<>> DiG 9.5.0 <<>> bt.webwise.com
;; global options: printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 1055
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;bt.webwise.com. IN A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
bt.webwise.com. 642 IN A 89.145.112.31
bt.webwise.com. 642 IN A 89.145.112.32

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
webwise.com. 642 IN NS ns2.webwise.com.
webwise.com. 642 IN NS ns1.webwise.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns2.webwise.com. 642 IN A 38.105.138.54
ns1.webwise.com. 642 IN A 38.105.138.53

;; Query time: 31 msec
;; SERVER: 195.74.113.58#53(195.74.113.58)
;; WHEN: Tue Jun 03 09:17:50 2008
;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 132


C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 8\VC>dig www.phorm.com

; <<>> DiG 9.5.0 <<>> www.phorm.com
;; global options: printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 1760
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 3, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;www.phorm.com. IN A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
www.phorm.com. 799 IN CNAME phorm.com.
phorm.com. 199 IN A 89.145.112.32
phorm.com. 199 IN A 89.145.112.31

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
phorm.com. 799 IN NS ns2.phorm.com.
phorm.com. 799 IN NS ns1.phorm.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns2.phorm.com. 172698 IN A 38.105.138.54
ns1.phorm.com. 172698 IN A 38.105.138.53

;; Query time: 31 msec
;; SERVER: 195.74.113.58#53(195.74.113.58)
;; WHEN: Tue Jun 03 09:18:00 2008
;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 145

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that's a new one!

So far we have

www.webwise.bt.com - Houston - still offline after explosion
http://webwise.bt.com
the products and services BT mirror
and now
bt.webwise.com

to add to the vanilla www.webwise.com

I'm ready to do whatever you want done Pete so just let me know, and whether you want me logged in or out of bt.com while doing it.

I'm happy to use the Phorm Webwise page/contact form as well.

Feel free to PM with a list of what to do. I currently have dephormation 1.9.


I am not seeing anything mirroring the Phorm opt-in or opt out pages, on the BT Webwise pages. they still say "not available".

However I haven't previously spotted bt.webwise.com so I will investigate it. I note that the contact form goes via custhelp.com so it looks like they closed that loophole on ALL the BT Webwise pages now. I've had a reply to a BT Webwise contact form via custhelp.com and it has no dubious References: headers with ww3.phorm.com or 121Media.com in them, and no FW in the subject line. (But it nevertheless asks for my BT account number and phone number which were not "required" in the original contact form, even though my enquiry was not account related but about Webwise generally.)

It looks like they are very very busy on BT Webwise sites (and it is a very confusing picture keeping up with all those domains with identical page structures and logos but different urls), and that they have definitely realised the boo boo over the contact form replies - and ;lugged that hole, so that one could well be worth taking up with ICO - if you are a BT customer with data from an earlier BT Webwise contact page enquiry - don't lose it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had a reply from Emma Sanderson today will summerise the answers to the questions as I didn't ask for permissioin to post it all.

1. The two batches of research you did were completed without the customer knowing and according to reportsd from Emma you don't know who they are except the ones who found out they were being diverted on so how could you tell what the customers response was?

Summery of the reply was.
BT did their own customer research which gave encouraging results.

MPO was the question placed in an informed way so customers would know BT were going to deep packet sniff each click.

2. I have a lot of websites that I spend my time building designing etc is this right that you come along and plagiarize it to sell the customers clicks for profit when they already pay for the internet connection?

Summery of reply.

BT do not plagerize websites. Any website owner can choose to participate or not in the OIX. they can opt out with robots.txt or give BT urls to and proof you are owner of website.

MPO was if they use google robots txt then thye are plagerizing since google use the search to bring people to my website phorm will harvest keywords then direct adverts that wil take them away.

3. Why use a company that is noted for its spyware/adware in the past company with a bad reputation that many knowledgeable internet uses know of and avoid?

summery of reply. BT have signed agreements here Emma also says other ISPs have so is VM being economical with the truth, does Emma really know they have signed or was it kents words. Emma also says phorm is in discussions with other ISPs.

MPO unless Emma has seen the signed contracts for the other ISPs then she cannot prove this it is only hear say to make BT not look like the only company.

4. I am working on this with my own experience of them as 121media which wasn't a happy one with children falling foul of their rootkits plus a member of the ISP community where I have moderated a forum for a number of years helping members with ISP related issues. I am trying to think it both ways but it still comes down to flag warning even more since it has been spotted that webwise.bt.com is in phorm control gathered customer details and hosted in Huston. At a company that is ranked in the top 10 phishing hosting companies world wide. This allowed phorm access to customer phone number's account number plus the form filled out went to phorm and not BT as the members were led to believe.

the latest problem brought to my attention is that if you visit BT.com the cookie placed will give any BT.com website including webwise.bt.com the customer details and enough information for someone to attempt to access.

Looking forward to your reply on this and what plans BT has to protect the customers from the effects of phorm phishing the customers information on servers outside the EU?

Summery of reply. Phorm are operating the webwise information site www.bt.com/webwise there is also a mail https link in the reply. This is done as Phorm is a trusted partner to BT and has BT's explicit consent was added this is not uncommon in brackets. Emma says she is confidant it doesnt pose any security risk. Emma also says the BT.com websites includes functionality so once you have signed in the website will remember the users until the browser is closed. This is to make it so customers do not have to repeatedly relog in. You have one secure login in then cookie tells the site you move around who you are the design also prevents unautherised access to users login sessions..

Emma admits Phorm have been hosting a contact phorm (oops sorry form) Which phorms system has to forward the customers requests. Emma says they do not require customer consent to allow phorm to host the site but assures me that BT complies to relevent law. In the last week BT have altered the contact phorm(form) so it is a standard BT contact to replace the ones hosted by phorm.

Oh yes in reply to one questions Emma did use the words due diligence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I bet this was forced through using the proxy vote from chairperson no sane person would go for this deeppacket sniffing spying on every click.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many ISP's are preparing to participate in the Webwise "trial".

If I go to http://www.webwise.com/privacy/can-choose-NA.html from the office I get a page that says:

If I go to the same page from my home connection I get:

My ISP is NOT BT, Talk Talk or VM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just seen on BT's BETA forum Miles Golding's post;

BT's legal department has written to ask for my website URL(s) and confirmation of ownership, without which they will not be able to honour my request to refrain from interfering with code and scanning/logging data exchange bewteen my site(s) and visitors' computers. If I do not provide the information, they do not consider themselves to be under an obligation to pro-actively check websites to ascertain if they contain 'opt-out' wording, and are confident that this position is compatible with the relevant legislation.

Three things.

One, that's an admission of copyright liability.

Two, you are under no obligation to make their system legal.

Three, they are obliged to obtain your consent before copying your work.

Miles if you're reading, can you post a scan/the text of their correspondance?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jelv you with Sky or Be?

Phorm will only target large ISPs hence why I went small and friendly the MD participates on the ISP forum regularly he has a laugh and jokes with customers.

He also uses the same network so you can be sure he will not be going down this path how many BT Directors will allow phorm to deep packet sniff their every clicks?

---------- Post added at 10:34 ---------- Previous post was at 10:31 ----------


If there was a co-ordinated sending in of URLs to BT from thousands of website owners would they have the resources and time to do this correctly/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No, I'm with a smaller ISP that is owned by BT and has said publicly that they are not going to use Phorm.

I actually suspect this is a BT foul-up and they might have to go back to the drawing board to determine who is a BT user.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Careful as that would be doing an opt-out and is not something we should have to do.

I am still waiting to hear from Tesco as to their position on this, its been nearly two weeks now so I think I will send them a prompt.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Florence. That suggests to me that the things I have recently been moaning about are all true (especially about the BT Webwise site and contact form run by Phorm). And they are pretending it's all legal. But they just changed it all anyway, just in case. Cos actually we caught them at it. So they stopped doing it.

If they are that worried then I imagine they are being roasted by their legal team. Good.

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

He he - thought you'd like that!

---------- Post added at 10:44 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ----------

Don't do that. I did and it was a mistake. That legitimates "opt-out" for webmasters and they need a webmaster "opt-in" solution which is impossible. My current line of attack is

Don't give them your urls
Do put a "privacy policy" on your website refusing them access
Do look at Dephormation to learn about the coyright issues
Do ask them awkward questions about intellectual property rights, derivative works, copyright, and how much they will pay per page for copying and exploiting your website content
Do ask them what the relevance of robots.txt googlebot directives is to a Webwise visit?
Do ask them whether Webwise will identify itself with a unique user-agent - if not, why not?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Noted the URL you refer to is a www.webwise.com URL.

The time for Plusnet/BT customers to get acutely concerned is when you visit

bt.webwise.com
webwise.bt.com
www.webwise.bt.com

... and see your ISP is participating and/or your status indicated as opted in/out.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can people go to http://www.webwise.com/privacy/index.html and then repeatedly click the bottom "You can choose" link.

I'm now seeing something very strange and wonder if others are seeing the same.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehe, yeah, I get "not enabled", then "off", then "on" and then back to "not enabled".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same result here too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They've put a video on the page, check out the location:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/phorm/PrivacyLongGen2.flv

It's hosted on an amazon server.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same here too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like they are developing/testing on the live website - fills you with confidence doesn't it!

They should realise that we will spot anything like that by now!

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 ----------

Do we need to post the following to as many forums as possible?


:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what gets me is they using cookies for opt out so you still going thorough the dam phorm dpi kit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Same result here - commercial sdsl line

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And if an occasional Alert comes up on any Web Page that reminds you that Webwise is "on" or "OFF" it proves the Phorm System is still monitoring & "Occasionally setting ads", in particular the AD to tell you Webwise is "OFF"????.

Mentioned in the Video above!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No cookie setting detected here, but it is odd.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did anyone notice that in the video the ISP's listed as offering webwise were BT and Talk Talk, no mention of VM?