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1andrew1 18-02-2019 20:50
Re: Theresa May must resign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35983632)
Is it down to Brexit?

Or is it down to the FTA Japan just signed with the EU which means they no longer have to have a presence in the EU to sell their cars tariff free. So they can take their manufacturing back to the UK reduce costs, employ Japanese workers and boost their own economy.

In Free Trade Globalisation, there are winners and losers.

This would have happened regardless of Brexit.
If the UK had voted Remain, the chances are high that Honda would not be closing down. The UK is a far cheaper country to make cars in, has a great labour supply and has access to a market of 500m on its doorstep and free trade deals with Japan and Korea. Closing down is a loss of honour.

Theresa May seems to be undoing all the good investment that Margaret Thatcher brought into the country. Let's hope she doesn't do a deal with Jeremy Corbyn to bring pack secondary picketing in return for his support on Brexit.

Sephiroth 19-02-2019 08:16
Re: Brexit
 
As a Leave supporter, I am deeply disappointed by the current state of affairs. With just 5 weeks to go, British exporters to Europe don't even know how to label their products nor what the tariffs might be. Just imagine that - the ad-hoc labelling business will have a Brexit fuelled boom whilst British business is left in turmoil.

This stems directly from TM's position as a Remainer, jabbed from the side by the arch-Remain Chancellor. It's only short of criminal negligence because there are no laws to cover this kind of negligence of office.

Our day 1 position entering the A50 era should have been on a no deal basis and then see what could have been done to "improve" on this position. Businesses would not too eventually have taken this as the certainty that they require; the guvmin could have instituted a tax-friendly scheme to cover businesses that met the no-deal preparation criteria should their expenditure have become nugatory as the result of any deal.

Some Remainers in this thread have pointed out that the EU could only be expected to negotiate with their interests first and that the Leavers should not be castigating the EU for being unreasonable. Whilst I have seen this sometimes as being apologist for the EU, the truth is that the Remainers have been right in this regard.

It is thus a great pity that the UK guvmin didn't take the same hard line approach. The EU had it's "ever closer union" mantra and the "4 pillars" to follow, so discouraging other would be defectors; the UK had £39 billion and a market of 65 million to wave in front of the EU's federalist eyes.

The ultimate insult, and which makes us a laughing stock, is to have allowed the perfidious Irish Varadkar to wave the GFA in front of us whereas his true intent was to protect the Irish economy. Sure, he would see that as a duty to Ireland - protect his country first; but our politicians never called him out for that perfidy. Talk about the tail wagging the dog and getting away with it, perhaps.

As to our Parliament - the breakaway Labour 7 are arch-Remainers who have mixed disillusionment with Labour's stance on Brexit with institutional anti-Semitism in the party and Corbyn in particular. Likewise, the likes of Dominic Grieve in the Conservative Party who have set out to thwart the Referendum result by use of parliamentary devices have only served to weaken our position in negotiating with the EU; they are the enemy within. Just imagine, those idiots in Parliament have voted against "no deal"; May had the opportunity of waving the £39 billion in front of the EU taken away as a credible threat because the EU will just call her bluff having made their assessment of what the UK Parliament could do to Brexit.

The ultimate irony would be if Brexit is stopped by a small parliamentary majority (for that is what it would be). The Remain bleaters pray in aid the margin narrowness the 52/48 Referendum result (1 million majority); they'll hypocritically hail as a democratic victory a parliamentary majority of 5 or 10 to Remain or water down Brexit.

And it's all TM's fault.

Angua 19-02-2019 08:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35983684)
As a Leave supporter, I am deeply disappointed by the current state of affairs. With just 5 weeks to go, British exporters to Europe don't even know how to label their products nor what the tariffs might be. Just imagine that - the ad-hoc labelling business will have a Brexit fuelled boom whilst British business is left in turmoil.

This stems directly from TM's position as a Remainer, jabbed from the side by the arch-Remain Chancellor. It's only short of criminal negligence because there are no laws to cover this kind of negligence of office.

Our day 1 position entering the A50 era should have been on a no deal basis and then see what could have been done to "improve" on this position. Businesses would not too eventually have taken this as the certainty that they require; the guvmin could have instituted a tax-friendly scheme to cover businesses that met the no-deal preparation criteria should their expenditure have become nugatory as the result of any deal.

Some Remainers in this thread have pointed out that the EU could only be expected to negotiate with their interests first and that the Leavers should not be castigating the EU for being unreasonable. Whilst I have seen this sometimes as being apologist for the EU, the truth is that the Remainers have been right in this regard.

It is thus a great pity that the UK guvmin didn't take the same hard line approach. The EU had it's "ever closer union" mantra and the "4 pillars" to follow, so discouraging other would be defectors; the UK had £39 billion and a market of 65 million to wave in front of the EU's federalist eyes.

The ultimate insult, and which makes us a laughing stock, is to have allowed the perfidious Irish Varadkar to wave the GFA in front of us whereas his true intent was to protect the Irish economy. Sure, he would see that as a duty to Ireland - protect his country first; but our politicians never called him out for that perfidy. Talk about the tail wagging the dog and getting away with it, perhaps.

As to our Parliament - the breakaway Labour 7 are arch-Remainers who have mixed disillusionment with Labour's stance on Brexit with institutional anti-Semitism in the party and Corbyn in particular. Likewise, the likes of Dominic Grieve in the Conservative Party who have set out to thwart the Referendum result by use of parliamentary devices have only served to weaken our position in negotiating with the EU; they are the enemy within. Just imagine, those idiots in Parliament have voted against "no deal"; May had the opportunity of waving the £39 billion in front of the EU taken away as a credible threat because the EU will just call her bluff having made their assessment of what the UK Parliament could do to Brexit.

The ultimate irony would be if Brexit is stopped by a small parliamentary majority (for that is what it would be). The Remain bleaters pray in aid the margin narrowness the 52/48 Referendum result (1 million majority); they'll hypocritically hail as a democratic victory a parliamentary majority of 5 or 10 to Remain or water down Brexit.

And it's all TM's fault.
It stems from May trying to do everything without consulting parliament. Starting with holding a GE. Then keeping things secret, not sharing information with parliament, such as the impact assessment of Brexit.

So you have the blinkered leading the deliberately blinded. There is never going to be a good outcome in those circumstances. May has embraced Leaving the EU with the fervour of the converted. If she truly were still a Remainer at heart, she would have been looking at ways to stop leaving, which would be a public vote on the deal, with the inclusion of remain as an option.

Instead she will see the split in Labour as a victory, with possibly losing a few Tory MPs as a price worth paying for the Tory parties future cohesion based on leaving the EU regardless.

Damien 19-02-2019 08:52
Re: Brexit
 
I think the bigger problem is the lack of unity. The result was the worst difficult one from an implementation perspective: A narrow win for the change option which the government and Parliament didn't want.

At the start Brexiters should have thought: This was a narrow win, we need to take the other side with us and Remainers thought 'we need to stop this'. There was no attempt to work it out.

I think May did what she thought was best after the election. The conference speech before it with 'citizen of nowhere' was the worst possible tone though and only done because she thought she needed to compensate for having supported Remain and went too far.

But think of how difficult this situation is for Parliament. A population divided down the middle want to vastly different outcomes.

TheDaddy 19-02-2019 09:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35983687)
I think the bigger problem is the lack of unity. The result was the worst difficult one from an implementation perspective: A narrow win for the change option which the government and Parliament didn't want.

At the start Brexiters should have thought: This was a narrow win, we need to take the other side with us and Remainers thought 'we need to stop this'. There was no attempt to work it out.

I think May did what she thought was best after the election. The conference speech before it with 'citizen of nowhere' was the worst possible tone though and only done because she thought she needed to compensate for having supported Remain and went too far.

But think of how difficult this situation is for Parliament. A population divided down the middle want to vastly different outcomes.
That's pretty much my thoughts, I do wonder what will happen when brexit doesn't solve the issues of globalisation or the feeling of being left behind many experienced.

nomadking 19-02-2019 09:32
Re: Brexit
 
The margin of the referendum result was more than a MILLION.

The Remain side are insisting on at least "freedom of movement" and a Customs Union. Those are completely at odds with the Leave side. What compromises have the Remain side offered?

The Remain side should've accepted the DEMOCRATIC result and tried make things happen better and easier, instead of try to sabotage it. The time and effort having to be spent on defending from anti-democratic attacks, would've been better spent on preparing plans for a hard Brexit. Then where the EU were prepared to do a deal on an aspect, that part of the plan could be crossed out or amended accordingly.

Pierre 19-02-2019 09:35
Re: Theresa May must resign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35983655)
If the UK had voted Remain, the chances are high that Honda would not be closing down. The UK is a far cheaper country to make cars in, has a great labour supply and has access to a market of 500m on its doorstep and free trade deals with Japan and Korea.
Well not according to Honda’s most senior guy in Europe, just been speaking on R4. Brexit
Has nothing to do with the decision . It’s about the death of the internal combustion engine and volumes.

You say they have access to a market of 500m, but they only sold 140,000 units last year, whereas their sales from their US and China sales topped more than 2million.

There’s the reason

pip08456 19-02-2019 09:42
Re: Brexit
 
Honda Civic production moving to N. American and Japan.

Hugh 19-02-2019 22:57
Re: Brexit
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47291378

Quote:
Brexit: UK will apply food tariffs in case of no deal

Environment Secretary Michael Gove has promised that the government will apply tariffs to food imports in the event of a no-deal Brexit, to provide "specific and robust protections" for farmers.

His remarks come as the government is poised to release details of tariffs (taxes on imports) that would apply to thousands of products coming in from around the world, if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

Many supporters of Brexit argue that tariffs on food and other items should be scrapped in order to lower prices for consumers. But farmers fear that cheap imports and lower standards would destroy many parts of British agriculture.

"Your concerns have absolutely been heard," Mr Gove told a conference of the National Farmers' Union (NFU). "It will not be the case that we will have zero-rate tariffs on food products.

"There will be protections for sensitive sections of agriculture and food production."

He added that an announcement on a no-deal tariff schedule "should be made later this week".
Also

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hael-gove-says
Quote:
In a keynote speech to the NFU, Gove also warned that British farmers could be locked out of the EU from 30 March in the event of no deal and that checks at Calais on food exports would “fur up” the arteries of trade, contrary to claims by the French port that there would not be delays.

“We can expect, at least in the short term, that those delays in Calais will impede the loading of ferries, constricting supply routes back into Britain and furring up the arteries of commerce on which we all rely,” said Gove.

The NFU recently warned that health and safety audits required on individual food processing plans required by the EU could take up to six months to complete, effectively locking British farming exporters out of the bloc.

On Tuesday Gove confirmed this by pointing out the EU had not yet classified the UK as a “third country”, which will only happen after health and safety audits are complete.

“The EU still have not listed the UK as a full third country … As I speak there is no absolute guarantee we will continue to be able to export to the EU,” he told farmers.

Gove also said that the dangers of no deal would not be removed if, in future, a trade deal was sealed between the UK and the EU.

Once tariffs are imposed by the EU on British exports “it will be difficult to re-establish that market access even if tariffs reduced in the future”.

Contrary to claims by Calais authorities, Gove said there will be delays at the port because of mandatory sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on any food or animal products exported to the bloc from Britain.

1andrew1 20-02-2019 00:40
Re: Brexit
 
Pretty clear that Brexit was one of the factors leading to the closure of Honda Swindon. Like FlyBMI, it is unlikely to be the only reason but it can well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

David Bailey, an economics professor at Aston University has said “I think we’re seeing a collision between Brexit uncertainty making investment difficult, just as the industry is transforming itself. Honda came to the UK because it offered a launchpad into the single market. There’s a lot of bewilderment in Japan about Brexit because what we offered them has been taken away. We’re not upholding our side of the deal so they don’t need to either. There may have been more of a chance of the UK being a centre of electric vehicle production if we stayed in the single market and if we had a more supportive industrial strategy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-close-in-2021

Mick 20-02-2019 00:46
Re: Brexit
 
It wasn’t a factor, this coming from Honda itself. :rolleyes:

1andrew1 20-02-2019 01:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35983807)
It wasn’t a factor, this coming from Honda itself. :rolleyes:
You may believe everything companies want you to believe. I wear my professional sceptic's hat.
Put it another way, if I were Honda, I would have everything to lose and nothing to gain by saying that Brexit was a factor.
As someone commented on the FT website today "What’s behind the statement? The Japanese are being very polite and diplomatic today, as I would expect.
They are not going to say, “you morons made an awful decision so we are off”. If they had, well, that really would have been a news story..."

Mick 20-02-2019 03:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35983808)
You may believe everything companies want you to believe. I wear my professional sceptic's hat.
Put it another way, if I were Honda, I would have everything to lose and nothing to gain by saying that Brexit was a factor.
As someone commented on the FT website today "What’s behind the statement? The Japanese are being very polite and diplomatic today, as I would expect.
They are not going to say, “you morons made an awful decision so we are off”. If they had, well, that really would have been a news story..."
Absolute rubbish.

I repeat, Brexit is not a factor, as per Honda saying so itself, you are well aware there is a global decline for car companies. I know this doesn't suit your pathetic negative, Anti-Brexit agenda, but those are the facts and I do believe them, I trust their word, far more than yours. :rolleyes:

TheDaddy 20-02-2019 05:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35983810)
Absolute rubbish.

I repeat, Brexit is not a factor, as per Honda saying so itself, you are well aware there is a global decline for car companies. I know this doesn't suit your pathetic negative, Anti-Brexit agenda, but those are the facts and I do believe them, I trust their word, far more than yours. :rolleyes:
Did you trust Nissan's word when they said brexit was a factor in their decision or didn't that suit your agenda...

1andrew1 20-02-2019 06:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35983810)
Absolute rubbish.

I repeat, Brexit is not a factor, as per Honda saying so itself, you are well aware there is a global decline for car companies. I know this doesn't suit your pathetic negative, Anti-Brexit agenda, but those are the facts and I do believe them, I trust their word, far more than yours. :rolleyes:
I guess you believed them too in September 2016
Quote:
TOKYO - Honda will continue its operations in the UK despite the country's vote to quit the European Union, a top executive said.
Honda Executive Vice President Seiji Kuraishi said the Japanese automaker has "no intention" of withdrawing from the UK where it is investing to make its sole factory in the country a global production hub.
https://europe.autonews.com/article/...despite-brexit

Angua 20-02-2019 08:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35983691)
The margin of the referendum result was more than a MILLION.

The Remain side are insisting on at least "freedom of movement" and a Customs Union. Those are completely at odds with the Leave side. What compromises have the Remain side offered?

The Remain side should've accepted the DEMOCRATIC result and tried make things happen better and easier, instead of try to sabotage it. The time and effort having to be spent on defending from anti-democratic attacks, would've been better spent on preparing plans for a hard Brexit. Then where the EU were prepared to do a deal on an aspect, that part of the plan could be crossed out or amended accordingly.
The margin of those who voted is not the whole story and never has been, despite the constantly repeated figure of 1.4 million, it is still far less than those who did not vote because they could not make up their mind.

We have a divided parliament, divided political parties and a divided nation.

Oh, and a lot of people voted Labour last time to stop the Tories rather than because they supported Leaving.

arcimedes 20-02-2019 08:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35983814)

We have a divided parliament, divided political parties and a divided nation.

Oh, and a lot of people voted Labour last time to stop the Tories rather than because they supported Leaving.
We voted Liberal here as the real choice was between Tory and liberals. Labour had no chance of winning here.

1andrew1 20-02-2019 09:27
Re: Brexit
 
My popcorn's at the ready for this development!
Quote:
A group of up to 30 government ministers are preparing block a no-deal Brexit.
They are working out how many of them need to resign from government in order to support the Cooper/Letwin amendment that will give parliament the power to take no-deal off the table.
The older ministers are preparing to resign so the younger ones don't have to, with one minister telling me he is already organising his departmental leaving party in anticipation of his resignation.
One rebel said: "The country looks on and thinks we're being run by 40 MPs, and that decisions about Brexit are being taken solely to keep the Tory party together. That simply can't do."
This looming showdown will prove explosive for the Conservative Party: the fury of the Brexiteers will be a sight to behold should their colleagues vote to give parliament the power to defy their own prime minister by ruling out no-deal and, if necessary, delaying Brexit.
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views...-will-11642360

Mick 20-02-2019 11:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35983812)
I guess you believed them too in September 2016

https://europe.autonews.com/article/...despite-brexit
Yes I absolutely did.

A lot can happen in 3 years. Global trends change, effecting World Markets, the Diesel issue in Europe being one of them. I reiterate for the 3rd time, Brexit doesn’t come in to scope, for the issue of Honda’s UK departure.

---------- Post added at 10:14 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35983814)
The margin of those who voted is not the whole story and never has been, despite the constantly repeated figure of 1.4 million, it is still far less than those who did not vote because they could not make up their mind.

We have a divided parliament, divided political parties and a divided nation.

Oh, and a lot of people voted Labour last time to stop the Tories rather than because they supported Leaving.
Those who do not vote because they couldn’t be arsed to or were not bothered, do not count, I know you like to keep throwing up this argument, but it is irrelevant.

Also, you cannot rubbish the claim, 80% of the electorate voted for Brexit supporting parties, if the majority of the electorate is or was passionately against Brexit, as you erroneously keep claiming, then they would have voted Liberal Democrat’s.

jonbxx 20-02-2019 11:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35983805)
Pretty clear that Brexit was one of the factors leading to the closure of Honda Swindon. Like FlyBMI, it is unlikely to be the only reason but it can well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

David Bailey, an economics professor at Aston University has said “I think we’re seeing a collision between Brexit uncertainty making investment difficult, just as the industry is transforming itself. Honda came to the UK because it offered a launchpad into the single market. There’s a lot of bewilderment in Japan about Brexit because what we offered them has been taken away. We’re not upholding our side of the deal so they don’t need to either. There may have been more of a chance of the UK being a centre of electric vehicle production if we stayed in the single market and if we had a more supportive industrial strategy.”

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-close-in-2021
So I have been thinking a bit about why Honda made the decision it did. As I have said before, the choice of where to site a manufacturing plant is driven by cost and ease of doing business. Cost would include cost of labour, synergies/critical mass of existing plant, taxes, closeness to your market and the tariff and non-tariff costs of shipping to your customers and receiving parts from your suppliers. Ease of doing business would be assuring the quality you need in your product, the skills of your workforce, legislation governing your business and, as above, the closeness of your customers and the costs of shipping (tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade)

The Swindon factory was a small plant in the grand scheme of things while, at the same time, there was spare capacity in Japan for manufacturing. Moving the manufacturing to Japan reduces Hondas costs of manufacturing and allows flexibility in the output - this month we will make less Civics and more CR-Vs for example. It does make economic sense to bring together manufacturing under one roof as it can grow your margin.

However, there are some risks... One is disaster planning - having multiple plants is a good idea in case something goes wrong. The second is moving away from a significant market - Europe. However, two things are helping here - one is the cost of moving cars around the world is dropping. The second is a certain EU-Japan trade deal, lowering the tariffs on cars eventually to zero. Again, the margin on a zero tariff car will be higher than one that attracts a 10% tariff.

During the negotiations, France and Germany argued against dropping the tariffs on cars as it would a) compete against EU made cars and b) cause shutdowns of Japanese car manufacturing sites in Europe. The UK and Japan pushed hard for the zero tariffs and got them.

Where does Brexit come in here? There will be a degree of uncertainty, especially related to supply chains and tier 2 supplier costs, as well as the costs of exporting from the UK to the EU if they do occur. At the moment, noone knows, generating a lot of uncertainty. I think the Honda decision had little to do with Brexit but may have been the straw that broke the donkeys back. The decision was economic.

There are of course unintended consequences... If we don't get a good trade deal with Japan, then the following will be the case;

EU gets no Honda factories but cheaper cars
UK gets no Honda factories but more expensive cars

Sorry, bit of a brain dump!

Mick 20-02-2019 11:40
Re: Brexit
 
Honda is also withdrawing from Turkey, no Texit going on there, as they’re not even in the EU.

mrmistoffelees 20-02-2019 11:46
Re: Brexit
 
Honda has three European sites, only one of which is manufacturing which is Swindon the other two in Belgium are predominantly storage/parts.

I think the move to modular platforms by manufacturers will accelerate plant closures globally, you just don't need a plant for a specific model anymore.

As much as I'm a staunch remainer and as much as i would like to blame it, I don't think Brexit is the issue here at all. The automotive industry is going through change the like has not been seen since we transitioned from horse and carriage to the ICE.

Whilst the ICE still has a part to play it's days are numbered. I'm due to change my car this year. I was initially looking at the Touraeg, SQ5 & X5, of which there are multiple heavily discounted examples available. Now, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a Model X.

In other words, the technology required is more affordable, manufacturers are reacting to supply and demand from the consumer.

I feel for not only the Swindon workers but also the surrounding supply chain job losses that are also inevitable. I just wonder when Nissan will do the same.

Mick 20-02-2019 12:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35983838)
Honda has three European sites, only one of which is manufacturing which is Swindon the other two in Belgium are predominantly storage/parts.

I think the move to modular platforms by manufacturers will accelerate plant closures globally, you just don't need a plant for a specific model anymore.

As much as I'm a staunch remainer and as much as i would like to blame it, I don't think Brexit is the issue here at all. The automotive industry is going through change the like has not been seen since we transitioned from horse and carriage to the ICE.

Whilst the ICE still has a part to play it's days are numbered. I'm due to change my car this year. I was initially looking at the Touraeg, SQ5 & X5, of which there are multiple heavily discounted examples available. Now, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a Model X.

In other words, the technology required is more affordable, manufacturers are reacting to supply and demand from the consumer.

I feel for not only the Swindon workers but also the surrounding supply chain job losses that are also inevitable. I just wonder when Nissan will do the same.
Succinctly put, however much we disagree on Brexit itself. :clap:

ianch99 20-02-2019 16:19
Re: Brexit
 
Spain is playing silly games regarding the "Colony" of Gibraltar:

Britons may need £52 visa to visit mainland Europe after Brexit

Quote:
British tourists travelling to continental Europe may need to pay £52 for a visa in a few weeks after Spanish demands over the status of Gibraltar again derailed Brussels’ preparations for Brexit.

Agreement on legislation exempting UK nationals from requiring the travel permit is mired in a dispute over whether the British overseas territory should be described as a “colony” in the EU’s statute book.

Spain has insisted, with the reluctant support of the other 26 member states, that a footnote containing the contentious description of the disputed territory is added to the legislation.

But the European parliament on Wednesday morning rejected the language proposed by the council of the European Union, the body that represents the member states.

It is the third time the member states’ proposal has been sent back by MEPs and casts doubt over whether the legislation can be salvaged in the next few weeks.

mrmistoffelees 20-02-2019 16:54
Re: Brexit
 
Gove talking to the farmers

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...hael-gove-says

pip08456 20-02-2019 17:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35983885)
Spain is playing silly games regarding the "Colony" of Gibraltar:

Britons may need £52 visa to visit mainland Europe after Brexit
So a non issue then.

papa smurf 20-02-2019 17:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35983891)
So a non issue then.
Not another surely :rolleyes:

jonbxx 20-02-2019 17:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35983893)
Not another surely :rolleyes:
I hope so! I need to travel mid-April which is tight for a business visa if there's no deal. Just had a look at the requirements and applying is gonna be a massive pain - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/bus...schengen-visa/

Fingers crossed!

Sephiroth 20-02-2019 18:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35983885)
Spain is playing silly games regarding the "Colony" of Gibraltar:

Britons may need £52 visa to visit mainland Europe after Brexit
Ah - the perfidious Spanish.

Pierre 20-02-2019 19:56
Re: Brexit
 
I’m sure Turkey would love Spain to piss off british tourists.

Hugh 20-02-2019 20:05
Re: Brexit
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35983925)
I’m sure Turkey would love Spain to piss off british tourists.
I thought the Turkish were all coming to Britain?

ianch99 20-02-2019 20:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35983928)
I thought the Turkish were all coming to Britain?
Nah, not a promise, just a suggestion :)

TheDaddy 20-02-2019 20:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35983928)
I thought the Turkish were all coming to Britain?
Who was it who said a million were already on their way here? Was it Penny Mordaunt, can't remember, wonder what happened to them, they should be here by now, hope they're not lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35983934)
Nah, not a promise, just a suggestion :)
That one wasn't an aspiration then

Hugh 20-02-2019 21:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35983937)
Who was it who said a million were already on their way here? Was it Penny Mordaunt, can't remember, wonder what happened to them, they should be here by now, hope they're not lost



That one wasn't an aspiration then
It was the Vote Leave campaign...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e4b746c1854e98
Quote:
Vote Leave said: “Since the birthrate in Turkey is so high, we can expect to see an additional million people added to the UK population from Turkey alone within eight years.

“This will not only increase the strain on Britain’s public services, but it will also create a number of threats to UK security.
Penny Mordaunt was the one who lied about Britain not having a veto on Turkey joining the EU.

TheDaddy 20-02-2019 21:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35983943)
It was the Vote Leave campaign...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e4b746c1854e98

Penny Mordaunt was the one who lied about Britain not having a veto on Turkey joining the EU.
She repeated their lie, was part of Brexit Uncivil War, she said it on the Andrew Marr show in 2016. It's funny how it's all been brushed under the carpet and forgotten, the last month in the lead up to the referendum it was a constant bombardment of turkeys and then once it played a decisive role in the result, newspapers like the express ran retractions and hoped we'd all forget

Hugh 20-02-2019 21:11
Re: Brexit
 
1 Attachment(s)
Music to leave the EU by...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1550693477

pip08456 20-02-2019 21:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35983946)
A good selection of tracks.:D

jfman 20-02-2019 21:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35983925)
I’m sure Turkey would love Spain to piss off british tourists.
Turkey which also has a fee for a visa.

denphone 20-02-2019 21:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35983946)
l wonder how many of those will turn platinum.;)

Pierre 21-02-2019 11:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35983948)
Turkey which also has a fee for a visa.
Don't know how much it is now, was only a tenner last time I went.

mrmistoffelees 21-02-2019 11:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35983996)
Don't know how much it is now, was only a tenner last time I went.

Used to be a tenner cash in hand as you got your passport stamped on entry, now it's an evisa (much the same as an esta) cost is approx $20 USD

jonbxx 21-02-2019 17:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35983997)
Used to be a tenner cash in hand as you got your passport stamped on entry, now it's an evisa (much the same as an esta) cost is approx $20 USD
Bargain compared to the UK - £93!!! https://www.gov.uk/choose-uk-visit-s...6-4157cfb6a183

Hugh 21-02-2019 17:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35984021)
Bargain compared to the UK - £93!!! https://www.gov.uk/choose-uk-visit-s...6-4157cfb6a183
Just landing at the airport to change planes would cost £35
Quote:
Apply for this visa if you need to pass through the UK on your way to another country.

How long you can stay and how much the visa costs depends on whether you pass through UK border control.

If you go through border control
Can work Can study How long you can stay Cost
No No 48 hours £64
If you do not pass through border control
Can work Can study How long you can stay Cost
No No Your onward journey should be within 24 hours £35

1andrew1 21-02-2019 20:27
Re: Brexit
 
This will not encourage a no-deal Brexit.
Quote:
Brexit news - live: Anger as government admits it will fail to strike Japan or Turkey trade pacts by exit day in event of no-deal
The government has been accused of breaking its promises after it emerged that key trade deals would not be ready by Brexit day in a no-deal scenario.
Whitehall documents reveal agreements with Japan, Algeria and Turkey will not be rubber-stamped by March 29 – despite Liam Fox’s assurance that deals would be ready at “one second after midnight in March”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8789586.html

jfman 21-02-2019 20:38
Re: Brexit
 
I was looking forward to a free trade deal with Algeria as well.

1andrew1 21-02-2019 23:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35984056)
I was looking forward to a free trade deal with Algeria as well.
lol. Why worry about a minor country like Japan when we have that economic superpower the Faeroes deal inked. :D

---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Looks like a no deal is increasingly unlikely.
Quote:
Group of 100 Conservative MPs ready to force Brexit delay if May's deal fails
Theresa May has been warned by a group of 100 moderate Tory MPs that they are prepared to rebel against the Government to force her to delay Brexit if she cannot reach a deal.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ctors-reshape/

I'm sure Eurostar staff and passengers will be mightily relieved if no deal can be avoided as seems likely from the previous article.
Quote:
No-deal Brexit risks Eurostar ‘chaos’ at St Pancras
Queues of up to 15,000 people could stretch for a mile if the UK drops out of the EU without an exit agreement, according to a report drawn up by the British government.
https://storify.com/services/proxy/2...8nBEje1_ft.JPG

Carth 22-02-2019 00:37
Re: Brexit
 
I wouldn't worry too much about the Eurostar stuff, when the queues at 'their' end get to 1.6 kilometers they'll soon sort something out ;)

jonbxx 22-02-2019 10:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35984072)
lol. Why worry about a minor country like Japan when we have that economic superpower the Faeroes deal inked. :D
Because that's where the growth is, did you not get the memo?

GDP growth for Faroes (est 2014) 5.9%
GDP growth for Japan (actual 2018) 0.30%

Exports to the UK;

Faroes $129.3m
Japan $50.2bn

1andrew1 22-02-2019 23:11
Re: Brexit
 
Another nail in the coffin for no deal?
Quote:
  • Amber Rudd, David Gauke and Greg Clark claim they're prepared to defy the PM
  • Writing in the Daily Mail, they warn No Deal departure would wreck the economy and are prepared to force Mrs May to extend Article 50 or delay Britain’s EU exit
  • They say it remains their hope Parliament agrees a deal ‘in the next few days’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ay-Brexit.html

Angua 23-02-2019 09:04
Re: Brexit
 

EU offers lucrative tax breaks to firm of billionaire Brexiter.

Will be interesting to see if he opens a factory in Bridgend or not.

nomadking 23-02-2019 09:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35984173)

EU offers lucrative tax breaks to firm of billionaire Brexiter.

Will be interesting to see if he opens a factory in Bridgend or not.
For EXISTING factories/plants and probably for OTHER companies as well.

Quote:
The chemicals and plastics company Ineos’s subsidiaries and joint ventures have been granted support from Germany, the UK, Belgium and France of at least €178m (£155m), according to a Guardian analysis of the European commission’s state aid data since July 2016.
...
The majority of state aid to Ineos companies controlled by Ratcliffe came in the form of tax breaks. Many of them have been linked to policies designed to accelerate the transition towards renewable energy, as well as tax reliefs for large industrial energy users.

Carth 23-02-2019 10:13
Re: Brexit
 
If you search long enough you can find things that suit a particular argument.

I wonder how many 'Remain' owned businesses have also been offered tax breaks over the last 3 years?


anyway, IMO offering tax breaks to a business that makes £2.2bn profit stinks :dozey:

denphone 23-02-2019 10:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35984177)
If you search long enough you can find things that suit a particular argument.

I wonder how many 'Remain' owned businesses have also been offered tax breaks over the last 3 years?


anyway, IMO offering tax breaks to a business that makes £2.2bn profit stinks :dozey:
Spot on.:tu:

nomadking 23-02-2019 10:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35984177)
If you search long enough you can find things that suit a particular argument.

I wonder how many 'Remain' owned businesses have also been offered tax breaks over the last 3 years?


anyway, IMO offering tax breaks to a business that makes £2.2bn profit stinks :dozey:
The GROUP may make those profits, but the INDIVIDUAL companies won't. Cross-subsidies are not allowed. You could unfairly use profits from one company to prop up another, thereby putting competitors of that unprofitable company out of business.

The payments seem to be mainly related to excessive green taxes. Certain processes use a lot of energy, there is no getting around that. If there was, they would use it regardless of any green taxes.

Sephiroth 23-02-2019 10:43
Re: Brexit
 
This is where it gets interesting.

Are the EU countries blinking? Maybe not Ireland yet; maybe not all; but the smoke signals are emerging.

Does it hinge on Geoffrey Cox providing a positive legal opinion?

Does it hinge on that Corbyn thing manoeuvring for power or will he give Labour a Free vote?

Would the best Tory psychology be to give their members a free vote?

So many variables that keep the risk high that there would be no deal.

I’d be happy with a deal that limits the backstop but not one that enshrines in treaty that the future relationship will be founded around a customs union.

Carth 23-02-2019 10:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984179)
Certain processes use a lot of energy, there is no getting around that.
Unless you move the 'industry' in question to a country that doesn't have many of the restrictions in place, therefore cheaper production and the ability to flood the market with your product . . . steel making for example

nomadking 23-02-2019 10:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35984184)
Unless you move the 'industry' in question to a country that doesn't have many of the restrictions in place, therefore cheaper production and the ability to flood the market with your product . . . steel making for example
The processes still use a lot of energy wherever they are based. That is why green taxes are damaging. They unfairly penalize energy dependent processes.

Sephiroth 23-02-2019 10:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35984177)
If you search long enough you can find things that suit a particular argument.

I wonder how many 'Remain' owned businesses have also been offered tax breaks over the last 3 years?


anyway, IMO offering tax breaks to a business that makes £2.2bn profit stinks :dozey:
I suppose that depends on how the tax break is used by the company.

Used to re-invest/invest in new ventures - new employment?

Used for dividends to be spent in the UK?

Used for dividends exported elsewhere?

As the recent world has shown, Free enterprise is the only model that works - perhaps with some controls at the edges for the protection of society.

Chris 23-02-2019 10:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35984183)
This is where it gets interesting.

Are the EU countries blinking? Maybe not Ireland yet; maybe not all; but the smoke signals are emerging.

Does it hinge on Geoffrey Cox providing a positive legal opinion?

Does it hinge on that Corbyn thing manoeuvring for power or will he give Labour a Free vote?

Would the best Tory psychology be to give their members a free vote?

So many variables that keep the risk high that there would be no deal.

I’d be happy with a deal that limits the backstop but not one that enshrines in treaty that the future relationship will be founded around a customs union.
It’s increasingly hard to read the runes here. The chaos is genuine. I don’t think anyone knows what will happen, and while I do believe the EU is hoping for a rebellion in the Commons sufficient to prevent a No Deal, I still don’t see them agreeing to the extension of A50 that Amber Rudd wants, unless there’s some sort of plan for what to do with the extra time.

Ireland meanwhile is truly cacking itself right now. Of that I have no doubt.

Carth 23-02-2019 11:02
Re: Brexit
 
They've had no coherent workable plan for the last two years, I don't see an extra few months making a difference.

No Deal on its way ;)

Chris 23-02-2019 11:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35984188)
They've had no coherent workable plan for the last two years, I don't see an extra few months making a difference.

No Deal on its way ;)
I agree that’s the most likely outcome but I don’t discount a last-minute concession on the backstop in a legally-binding addendum to the withdrawal agreement. The EU has repeatedly said the agreement will not be reopened, and I don’t think they’re lying, because the main document doesn’t need to be re-written in order to resolve the problem. There simply needs to be legally binding clarification about the ways in which the backstop is terminated, if it is ever used.

1andrew1 23-02-2019 11:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35984183)
This is where it gets interesting.

Are the EU countries blinking? Maybe not Ireland yet; maybe not all; but the smoke signals are emerging.

Does it hinge on Geoffrey Cox providing a positive legal opinion?

Does it hinge on that Corbyn thing manoeuvring for power or will he give Labour a Free vote?

Would the best Tory psychology be to give their members a free vote?

So many variables that keep the risk high that there would be no deal.

I’d be happy with a deal that limits the backstop but not one that enshrines in treaty that the future relationship will be founded around a customs union.
Looks like it's members of the cabinet who are blinking at the moment - post 7749 refers.

Carth 23-02-2019 11:18
Re: Brexit
 
It won't happen Andrew, if 'no deal' is removed from the table, then the EU have won a massive victory

Sephiroth 23-02-2019 11:20
Re: Brexit
 
Those cabinet members were/are Remainers. Or did I misunderstand you. Where’s the wobble?

1andrew1 23-02-2019 12:41
Re: Brexit
 
No only are cabinet and Tory MPs blinking, now even the Daily Express seems to have joined in.
Quote:
FORMER World Trade Organisation boss Pascal Lamy dismissed claims from Brexiteers suggesting the UK would enjoy better trade regulations with international partners without a Brexit divorce deal with the European Union.
Pascal Lamy claimed a no deal Brexit would make "no sense" as British tradesmen would see tariffs and barriers instituted on all trade with the European Union.

The former World Trade Organisation (WTO) chief insisted the British Government should strike an arrangement securing continuity past March 29 because of the deep connection British and European business have built over the past 40 years. Speaking to Euronews, Mr Lamy said: "I know there’s a view on the Brexit side that they become independent, they regain control. "In a world which is globalising, integrating, I think it makes absolutely no sense."What would be the sense of having a regulation for 60 million people when the world is moving to zones who have regulations for 500 million or 600 million people? It makes no sense."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...Juncker-latest

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984179)
The GROUP may make those profits, but the INDIVIDUAL companies won't. Cross-subsidies are not allowed. You could unfairly use profits from one company to prop up another, thereby putting competitors of that unprofitable company out of business.

The payments seem to be mainly related to excessive green taxes. Certain processes use a lot of energy, there is no getting around that. If there was, they would use it regardless of any green taxes.
Companies cross-subsidise loss-making divisions all the time. When you set up a company in a new country, that company may not make a profit for a long time. In the case of Eleven Sports in the UK, it may never make profits here before closing down. Mike Ashley is cross-subsidising House of Fraser with his other stores at the moment in the hope he can turn it around.
Where it becomes an issue is if a company is deliberately trying to drive competitors out of business so it can dominate the market unfairly. That's always a hard one to prove.

---------- Post added at 10:54 ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35984173)

EU offers lucrative tax breaks to firm of billionaire Brexiter.

Will be interesting to see if he opens a factory in Bridgend or not.
There's no plan to open a factory in Bridgend. Ratcliff has suggested that Ford may wish to pitch to assemble his SUV there on a contract basis. Ford currently has an engine plant there. Magna in Graz, Austria which has contracts with Mercedes, Jaguar Land Rover and BMW is tipped as the most likely location.

---------- Post added at 11:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35984192)
Those cabinet members were/are Remainers. Or did I misunderstand you. Where’s the wobble?
They're blinking by threatening to vote against the PM. They've kept their nerve upto now.

Hugh 23-02-2019 13:48
Re: Brexit
 
I see Jeremy Hunt is following in his predecessor’s footsteps, by causing outrage in the countries he visits whilst trying to do a Brexit deal.
Quote:
This is my first visit to Slovenia as foreign secretary. Not the first visit in my life but my first visit in a professional capacity.

I'm really happy to be here as a fellow European country, the UK is very proud of the transformation there has been in Europe over the past 30 years.

It's a really remarkable transformation from a former Soviet vassal state to a modern European democracy, a member of the EU, a member of NATO.

A flourishing economy. Growing its tourism, year in and year out. This is really an example of Europe at it's best.
Quote:
Milan Brglez,former president of the Slovenian parliament: “The British foreign minister comes to Slovenia asking us for a favour(to discuss with the foreign minister how to avoid a no-deal Brexit)while arrogantly insulting us. We were never a 'vassal state of the Soviet Union'."
Slovenia came from Yugoslavia, which was never a part of the Warsaw Pact (it was, in fact, part of the "non-aligned Nations" grouping).

denphone 23-02-2019 13:56
Re: Brexit
 
Arrogance , ignorance and prejudice quite a common trait among some of todays politicians..

papa smurf 23-02-2019 13:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984200)
I see Jeremy Hunt is following in his predecessor’s footsteps, by causing outrage in the countries he visits whilst trying to do a Brexit deal.



Slovenia came from Yugoslavia, which was never a part of the Warsaw Pact (it was, in fact, part of the "non-aligned Nations" grouping).
Ha ha now their a vassal state of the European union :)

nomadking 23-02-2019 14:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984200)
I see Jeremy Hunt is following in his predecessor’s footsteps, by causing outrage in the countries he visits whilst trying to do a Brexit deal.

Slovenia came from Yugoslavia, which was never a part of the Warsaw Pact (it was, in fact, part of the "non-aligned Nations" grouping).
Then again how many others knew that Yugoslavia was non-aligned? I only know, because I was told some time ago that they had been looking to buy a UK made anti-air missile system, which would be pointed in Russia's direction.

1andrew1 23-02-2019 14:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984203)
Then again how many others knew that Yugoslavia was non-aligned? I only know, because I was told some time ago that they had been looking to buy a UK made anti-air missile system, which would be pointed in Russia's direction.
Irrelevant what the average person in the UK understands about the former political alignment of Yugoslavia. But it is important for a foreign secretary to know or be briefed on such things when dealing with a successor nation.

nomadking 23-02-2019 15:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35984204)
Irrelevant what the average person in the UK understands about the former political alignment of Yugoslavia. But it is important for a foreign secretary to know or be briefed on such things when dealing with a successor nation.
But that relies on the knowledge of the civil servants doing the briefing. My knowledge came from a one-off encounter with the company looking to supply the missile systems back in the 1980s.

Hugh 23-02-2019 15:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984203)
Then again how many others knew that Yugoslavia was non-aligned? I only know, because I was told some time ago that they had been looking to buy a UK made anti-air missile system, which would be pointed in Russia's direction.
He’s not ‘many others’ - he’s the most senior diplomat in the U.K. in a country trying to get them "on side" to get a good trade deal.

---------- Post added at 14:11 ---------- Previous post was at 14:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984205)
But that relies on the knowledge of the civil servants doing the briefing. My knowledge came from a one-off encounter with the company looking to supply the missile systems back in the 1980s.
Then again, you’re not a career Foreign Office Civil Servant with decades of experience.

If a senior EU diplomat came over here and made a speech stating that we were a vassal of the EU, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be defending them...

pip08456 23-02-2019 15:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984206)
He’s not ‘many others’ - he’s the most senior diplomat in the U.K. in a country trying to get them "on side" to get a good trade deal.

---------- Post added at 14:11 ---------- Previous post was at 14:10 ----------

Then again, you’re not a career Foreign Office Civil Servant with decades of experience.

If a senior EU diplomat came over here and made a speech stating that we were a vassal of the EU, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t be defending them...
Then again, you'd expect a career Foreign Office Civil Servant with decades of experience to ensure the information given in a briefing to Foreign office minister to be correct.

Pierre 23-02-2019 16:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35984189)
I agree that’s the most likely outcome but I don’t discount a last-minute concession on the backstop in a legally-binding addendum to the withdrawal agreement. The EU has repeatedly said the agreement will not be reopened, and I don’t think they’re lying, because the main document doesn’t need to be re-written in order to resolve the problem. There simply needs to be legally binding clarification about the ways in which the backstop is terminated, if it is ever used.
History will not look kindly on the politicians that allow a no deal to happen.

It doesn’t matter who they point the finger at.

No deal should not be taken off the table, it is essential for the UK to have the nuclear option and it will be the ONLY reason that the EU may concede ground on the backstop.

Also If i was the UK negotiators I would also want a legally binding commitment to have a FTA in place after the Transition period.

If, May does get a legally binding concession on the backstop, then the UK Parliament has to vote in favour of May’s deal. Otherwise it will be them and not May that is taking us out without a deal.

I think May probably will have already agreed a concession on the backstop, but she and the EU will let it run down for another week or so.

This will then put enormous pressure on Parliament to vote through the deal, or risk no deal.

Apart from the backstop and the 41 billion, I have heard what else is bad about Mays deal. Has anyone else?

nomadking 23-02-2019 17:31
Re: Brexit
 
So we're meant to blindly agree to whatever the EU tells us to? That's what an anything but a "no deal" situation means.

Hugh 23-02-2019 23:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35984208)
Then again, you'd expect a career Foreign Office Civil Servant with decades of experience to ensure the information given in a briefing to Foreign office minister to be correct.
You can’t stop rogue Ministers ad-libbing...

pip08456 23-02-2019 23:10
Re: Brexit
 
A very interesting interview with the Canadian High Comissioner about Canada and post Brexit UK.

https://www.tvo.org/video/programs/t...brexit-britain

1andrew1 24-02-2019 10:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984229)
You can’t stop rogue Ministers ad-libbing...
I think that's what makes it worse. Slovenia knows that Hunt will have had a great set of briefing notes but has shown how he really values Slovenia by not reading them.
I would also caution against using the term vassal state as it's not in popular use particularly in non-English-speaking countries and seems used when talking about Ancient China and the Hittites as oppose to anything more recent.

Mr K 24-02-2019 11:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35984204)
Irrelevant what the average person in the UK understands about the former political alignment of Yugoslavia. But it is important for a foreign secretary to know or be briefed on such things when dealing with a successor nation.
At least he's just insulting a few foreigners now instead of messing up something important like the health service. So progress I guess ;)

1andrew1 24-02-2019 11:04
Re: Brexit
 
Looks like the tin can is being kicked down the road.
Quote:
A vicious cabinet war erupted last night over a plot by senior ministers to delay Brexit, as Theresa May looked certain to shelve plans for a Commons vote on her deal this week.
Five cabinet colleagues rounded on Amber Rudd, calling for her to be sacked after she publicly threatened to defy the prime minister by voting to delay article 50. The work and pensions secretary was singled out by cabinet colleagues as the ringleader of a cross-party campaign to stop Brexit. She was accused of seeking to further her own leadership ambitions
The party was plunged into fresh bloodletting after May was warned she could be forced to quit within weeks should her Brexit deal go through.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...lits-z86q87txk

According to The Guardian
Quote:
Theresa May is being warned by her team that she cannot sack ministers who vote this week to delay Brexit without causing a further rupture within her party.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ld-brexit-vote

denphone 24-02-2019 11:10
Re: Brexit
 
Two parties at war within themselves just when this country need unity...

1andrew1 24-02-2019 11:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35984247)
At least he's just insulting a few foreigners now instead of messing up something important like the health service. So progress I guess ;)
lol. I guess he's only following in the footsteps of his predecessor and in his favour, no goat poems were involved. ;)

pip08456 24-02-2019 11:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984229)
You can’t stop rogue Ministers ad-libbing...
And you know he did this because...

papa smurf 24-02-2019 11:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35984249)
Two parties at war within themselves just when this country need unity...
Because for the first time in living history the people are demanding that mp's keep to their manifesto promises and not just do their own thing,it's certainly opened my eyes to the devious tricks and back tracking that goes on in the quest to rewrite the meaning of the term democracy.

denphone 24-02-2019 12:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35984255)
Because for the first time in living history the people are demanding that mp's keep to their manifesto promises and not just do their own thing,it's certainly opened my eyes to the devious tricks and back tracking that goes on in the quest to rewrite the meaning of the term democracy.
Politicians sadly have been breaking manifesto promises ever since l was eligible to vote so there ain't much change there papa as remember many politicians talk with forked tongue.

heero_yuy 24-02-2019 12:07
Re: Brexit
 
Just validates the old saying: "How can you tell a politician is lying?"

Their lips are moving.

Mr K 24-02-2019 12:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35984257)
Politicians sadly have been breaking manifesto promises ever since l was eligible to vote so there ain't much change there papa as remember many politicians talk with forked tongue.
Always thought manifestos should be contactually binding, otherwise they are pointless. i.e. we can sue if they don't deliver !

Carth 24-02-2019 12:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35984257)
Politicians sadly have been breaking manifesto promises ever since l was eligible to vote so there ain't much change there papa as remember many politicians talk with forked tongue.
Quite true, which is why I very rarely take any notice of the drivel they spout . . or even vote for that matter.

It's all in the public eye this time though, the media are pouncing on every (not so) subtle attempt at sleight of hand trickery ;)

nomadking 24-02-2019 12:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35984260)
Always thought manifestos should be contactually binding, otherwise they are pointless. i.e. we can sue if they don't deliver !
I very much doubt that your desire is to see them implemented. You just want another tool to subvert democracy by suing the Party you disagree with.



How do you deal with coalition type arrangements where there are conflicting views?

Mr K 24-02-2019 12:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35984266)
I very much doubt that your desire is to see them implemented. You just want another tool to subvert democracy by suing the Party you disagree with.



How do you deal with coalition type arrangements where there are conflicting views?
Err no, I just what them to deliver what they promise, and it applies to all parties. It's the politicians that 'subvert' democracy.

Hugh 24-02-2019 13:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35984208)
Then again, you'd expect a career Foreign Office Civil Servant with decades of experience to ensure the information given in a briefing to Foreign office minister to be correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984229)
You can’t stop rogue Ministers ad-libbing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35984254)
And you know he did this because...
Much the same way you knew that the briefing wasn’t up to scratch...

His speech would not have been written by a Civil Servant, it would have been one of his SPADs or a speech writer - they often don't run things past the FO staff.

Angua 24-02-2019 13:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35984268)
Err no, I just what them to deliver what they promise, and it applies to all parties. It's the politicians that 'subvert' democracy.
That might have the effect that no one but the party faithful votes any more. Not really in the spirit of democracy.

Parties will have manifesto ideas that people both agree with and disagree with. It is the on balance that some people vote for. Others vote simply to stop the other party, nothing to do with the manifesto at all.

nomadking 24-02-2019 13:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35984268)
Err no, I just what them to deliver what they promise, and it applies to all parties. It's the politicians that 'subvert' democracy.
So as (in your own words) a "Lefty Liberal Remoaner", you are unhappy that these manifesto pledges weren't achieved?

Quote:
1) Emergency budget within 50 days of election to help pay down the bulk of the deficit.

Not met – The emergency budget took place but the deficit has only fallen by around a third. It has only halved as a proportion of national income.
...


9) Human Rights Act to be replaced by British Bill of Rights.
Not met – This never happened after a commission failed to agree how it would be implemented. It is, however, likely to make a reappearance in the 2015 manifesto.
10) Annual limit on non-EU economic migrants.
Not met – Non-EU migration has fallen but there is no formal limit.
11) Overseas students at new or unregistered institutions to pay bond on arrival.
Not met – Home secretary Theresa May had a plan to make all immigrants pay bonds but this was blocked by the Lib Dems.

Sephiroth 24-02-2019 14:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984270)
Much the same way you knew that the briefing wasn’t up to scratch...

His speech would not have been written by a Civil Servant, it would have been one of his SPADs or a speech writer - they often don't run things past the FO staff.
He’ll be avoiding the press like the plague now. And they’ll stick it to him in Parliament.

RichardCoulter 24-02-2019 14:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35984260)
Always thought manifestos should be contactually binding, otherwise they are pointless. i.e. we can sue if they don't deliver !
They'll just say that things have changed since the manifesto was drawn up or that (in the case of a different party getting into power) matters were much worse than they believed whilst in opposition, necessitating a different solution e.g. promising not to increase taxes and then increasing them.

Mick 24-02-2019 14:26
Re: Brexit
 
BREAKING: According to Sky News Sources - PM just landed in Sharm-el-Sheikh. Confirms on flight that she has decided she will not table a meaningful vote this week. New date set for March 12th.

Sephiroth 24-02-2019 14:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35984280)
BREAKING: According to Sky News Sources - PM just landed in Sharm-el-Sheikh. Confirms on flight that she has decided she will not table a meaningful vote this week. New date set for March 12th.
I hope that Macron, Varadkar and Juncker get the trots (aka food poisoning).

Mr K 24-02-2019 16:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35984280)
BREAKING: According to Sky News Sources - PM just landed in Sharm-el-Sheikh. Confirms on flight that she has decided she will not table a meaningful vote this week. New date set for March 12th.
Oh good lots of meaningless votes then. Democracy in action !

Hugh 24-02-2019 16:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35984280)
BREAKING: According to Sky News Sources - PM just landed in Sharm-el-Sheikh. Confirms on flight that she has decided she will not table a meaningful vote this week. New date set for March 12th.
Didn’t she promise at the Dispatch Box on the 12th February that there would be a meaningful vote this week?

Reminiscent of the first "meaningful vote" being delayed from 11th December to the 15th January...

Angua 24-02-2019 17:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35984293)
Didn’t she promise at the Dispatch Box on the 12th February that there would be a meaningful vote this week?

Reminiscent of the first "meaningful vote" being delayed from 11th December to the 15th January...
More kicking the can down the road, just so she can get her deal through parliament, by offering the fire of no deal vs the pan of her deal.

The EU are prepared for no deal, so not really a threat to them.


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