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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

Kursk 31-05-2008 11:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
In my view the ICO should be persuaded to engage. I am not interested in their stated remit; if needs be I want that remit changed so that it serves the electorate. That is the proper return for a vote. Government serves and shouldn't try ducking issues that affect so many people.

Frank Rizzo 31-05-2008 11:49
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
NTLVictim. I already had....

With the earlier conversations I had with the ICO it was clear that they would not be able to actually do anything.

In those conversations I was informed that the ICO can only take action after a second contravention has taken place. If a contravention takes place the ICO warn the company not to do it again. If the second contravention takes place the ICO have the power to fine the company. Although the figures talked were laughable - they only have the power to fine a few thousand.

I did not expect such a whitewash today though. I had expected firm confirmation that PECR was contravened so that it was crystal clear BT broke the law and that the police could then not refuse to investigate. This is now not the case and once again a buck has been passed and it is up to a lawyer to enforce the law.

EU it now is.

Oh and I am now more vigorous in pursuing for compensation ;)

warescouse 31-05-2008 11:52
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564212)
NTLVictim. I already had....

With the earlier conversations I had with the ICO it was clear that they would not be able to actually do anything.

In those conversations I was informed that the ICO can only take action after a second contravention has taken place. If a contravention takes place the ICO warn the company not to do it again. If the second contravention takes place the ICO have the power to fine the company. Although the figures talked were laughable - they only have the power to fine a few thousand.

I did not expect such a whitewash today though. I had expected firm confirmation that PECR was contravened so that it was crystal clear BT broke the law and that the police could then not refuse to investigate. This is now not the case and once again a buck has been passed and it is up to a lawyer to enforce the law.

EU it now is.

Oh and I am now more vigorous in pursuing for compensation :-)
From what was said by the EC on the Phorm matter recently I think that would be a good course of action.

Rchivist 31-05-2008 12:02
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564196)
1. "BT sought their own legal advice"

Can we see that legal advice? Can the ICO confirm it was bona fide?

2. "BT did not associate your enquiry with the 2007 trials and as they were not able to identify individual cusomters that had participated"

BT knew full well I was participating in the trials - I told them as soon as I started unearthing the murky world of 121media. BT logged support, abuse, and customer service records in my name and thus knew I was part of the trials.

3. "(because of the anonymity of the process) they were unable to contact you"

As with 2. BT knew full well who I was. I told them about 121media. They had support, abuse and CC records of my contact details

4. "They have advised that they attempted to contact you after you had expressed concerns online at 'The Register' however they were apparently not successful."

Was the line constantly engaged? Did they not know my phone number or address? I was a god damn BT customer! Of course they had my contact details.

5. "BT have confirmed that no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during either trial. We have no reason to doubt this assertion."

So BT told the ICO that was the case. Did the ICO see evidence of this or did they just take BT's word for it?

6. "Regulation 6... the user should be provided with 'clear and comprehensive' information..."

BT did not provide this information during the trials. They therefore contravened that Regulation. The ICO allowing BT to get off that hook because 'we could not comply with that regulation because we did not know who the customers were’ looks a whitewash to me.

7. "Regulation 7… It is arguable whether the requirements are engaged in this instance, however it is our view that Regulation 6 would be likely to apply… BT’s view is that the trial was small scale and technical in nature and no ads were served.”

How small scale is small scale? How many people were involved in the trials? Did BT give the ICO a figure? Did the ICO agree it was small scale? It doesn’t matter if it was one or ten thousand. A contravened regulation is a contravened regulation.

8. ”Our view is that, whether or not there was a technical breach of the Regulation, there is no evidence that the trials generally involved significant detriment to the individuals involved, or privacy risks to individuals”

There was significant detriment. BT lied to me and caused disruption to my business. As for privacy risks please explain exactly what happened to my internet communications. As far as I am aware my internet connection was connecting to sysip.net – a domain owned by 121media – a company with a history of spyware and rootkits. Please give me evidence that my privacy was not at risk.

9. “As I mentioned briefly, Regulation 30 specifies that a person who suffers damage by reason of a contravention can make a claim for compensation”

ICO don’t want to know and they would prefer I pursue this matter in the courts, at my expense. What exactly is the point of the ICO if it is up to individuals to seek recourse themselves?
If you've just received this response, then on the basis of the time-lag, I would imagine it was prepared in advance of the latest published communication from the European Commission spokesperson which I think makes reference to your case. (text here - http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16046 )

I think if it was me, I would be inclined to reply to the ICO saying I was sending their response for consideration by the European Commission spokesperson and to your MP and MEP's (all of them - available via theyworkforyou.com etc). I would copy the latest Commission statement along with that letter back to the ICO, along with your rebuttals.

And I would send the ICO response you have just published, to the Commission spokesperson who replied on behalf of Vivian Reding (not sure of name) also with your rebuttals and say that you think the ICO is not pulling their finger out and could someone remind them of how the EC view these things.

At the very least it should generate some correspondence between the ICO and the EC which may mean that the next complaint the IC gets (and he will be getting several!) is considered a little more carefully, and maybe the IC will organise a visit to the dentist to get his teeth sharpened (or perhaps get false ones fitted if all his own have fallen out). At best, the IC will say - oh dear I haven't been properly informed about those other details - we'll look at this again.

Don't see it as a defeat, merely the first hopeless incompetent ill-informed
fudge from a civil servant interested in the easy life. Make their lives harder till it becomes easier to take you seriously than ignore you.

I'm sure you are probably aware of all this anyway so apologies for sounding patronising.

It really does sound as if all a "defendant" has to do when the ICO contact them is say "no we never done that officer" and the case is over. Which won't do.

Mischievous thought - I wonder if you could send in £10 and an FOI request to BT asking for the details of their responses to ICO concerning your case?

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564212)
NTLVictim. I already had....

With the earlier conversations I had with the ICO it was clear that they would not be able to actually do anything.

In those conversations I was informed that the ICO can only take action after a second contravention has taken place. If a contravention takes place the ICO warn the company not to do it again. If the second contravention takes place the ICO have the power to fine the company. Although the figures talked were laughable - they only have the power to fine a few thousand.

I did not expect such a whitewash today though. I had expected firm confirmation that PECR was contravened so that it was crystal clear BT broke the law and that the police could then not refuse to investigate. This is now not the case and once again a buck has been passed and it is up to a lawyer to enforce the law.

EU it now is.

Oh and I am now more vigorous in pursuing for compensation ;)
Just to cheer you up - I'm preparing a letter to ICO regarding BT's cookie handling and the way they have been running bt.com, in association with custhelp.com and webwise.bt.com, in terms of handling personally identifiable data which has been made available to Phorm.Inc. So the case load is beginning to build up, and this is a different but related issue illustrating how poor BT are at protecting customer data. there's some good stuff on file.

Maybe eventually it will click in the ICO's mind that BT have difficulties finding and speaking the truth owing to a mixture of their incompetence, corporate poor communication, and general greed.

NTLVictim 31-05-2008 12:17
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
A thought has just crossed what I laughingly call my brain, could be a new wrinkle..

Does phorm/BT's activity contravene our human rights (as in European Court of)?

Kursk 31-05-2008 12:34
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34564215)
Mischievous thought - I wonder if you could send in £10 and an FOI request to BT asking for the details of their responses to ICO concerning your case?
FOI only applies to Public Authorities so an approach to BT isn't on; the ICO is a Public Authority though :D

It is shameful that the EU is better representing our rights than our own Government.

Rchivist 31-05-2008 12:43
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34564230)
FOI only applies to Public Authorities so an approach to BT isn't on; the ICO is a Public Authority though :D

It is shameful that the EU is better representing our rights than our own Government.
Doh! - of course :dunce:

vicz 31-05-2008 13:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Well it seems knacker of the yard still has enough time and IT nous to go after the real big time cyber crooks http://torrentfreak.com/oink-investi...rrests-080530/

gnilddif 31-05-2008 13:11
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34564215)
<snipped>
Just to cheer you up - I'm preparing a letter to ICO regarding BT's cookie handling and the way they have been running bt.com, in association with custhelp.com and webwise.bt.com, in terms of handling personally identifiable data which has been made available to Phorm.Inc. So the case load is beginning to build up, and this is a different but related issue illustrating how poor BT are at protecting customer data. there's some good stuff on file.
If you wish to have either of my emails from "BT Webwise" Robert, let me know. I've made an online complaint to ICO already, as you know.
What I'm considering is whether there might be a case to prosecute BT under the DPA in respect of the BT Webwise/121media/phorm online question procedure fiasco. I don't think I'd sent my DPA/Common law rights Notice to them by the time I had the 1st email (with the explicit marketingATphormDOTcom body text insertion), but certainly they had acknowledged the Notice by the time of the second email that contained the "reference" to 121media in the headers. And there is still the evidence in that the Subject line of both read "FW: BT.webwise.com Contact Request". The fact that they've changed the "Contact BT" link to a btDOTcom UK server rather than the phorm US one surely implies that they felt they were not on solid legal ground.
g

Phormic Acid 31-05-2008 13:47
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564182)
* * * ICO will NOT take action over the 2007 trials * * *
It’s as though the ICO have written a quick guide to the ‘legal’ mass interception of any data, voice or text message communications within the UK.

  1. Call your interception a Technical Trial.
  2. Intend that your customers should remain completely unaware that their communications are being intercepted.
  3. Limit the number of customers whose communications you intercept to a figure in the tens of thousands.
  4. Should your interception cause problems for your customers, act surprised.

tdadyslexia 31-05-2008 15:03
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
"No DPI" web site launches with Phorm Protest Event
Digg is up to 72, Going Up. :)

The Petition is up to Signatures: 13,574

Kursk 31-05-2008 16:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
What's with the rather anonymously-named-geeky-sounding 'noDPI' website then? Aren't the bases already covered by this excellent forum and the equally excellent inphormationdesk? Sorry, have I missed something :erm:?

NTLVictim 31-05-2008 16:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34564340)
Sorry, have I missed something :erm:?
I blinked once on this thread, and missed three pages...;)

Rchivist 31-05-2008 16:30
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34563959)
OK press releases sent out to:

London Standard
The London Paper
Telegraph
Guardian
Financial Times
Daily Mail
Wired Magazine
Associated Press

Also notified:
Dan Simmons - BBC Click
Charles Arthur - The Guardian
Claer Barrett - Investors Chronicle

Here is a copy of the press release:



Feel free to use the press release for any contacts you may wish to make with other members of the press and media (obviously change the last couple of lines).

Alexander Hanff
I've sent details of the demo (and the toothless ICO response to the Mainwaring case) to my MP (Annette Brooke LD) who is a signatory to Don Fosters EDM and asked her to let the other signatories know if possible.

NTLVictim 31-05-2008 16:50
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
1 Attachment(s)
On the subject of ICO, it appears they had testes once upon a time..

Can someone legal find a precedent that creates a discord with what they have just done with Mr Rizzo's complaint? PDF attached.

pseudonym 31-05-2008 18:04
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34564340)
What's with the rather anonymously-named-geeky-sounding 'noDPI' website then?

There was a post in this thread that someone had registered www.webspies.co.uk - as it is not currently in use, might I suggest pointing it to the nodpi site until after the meeting.

Dephormation 31-05-2008 18:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564182)
* * * ICO will NOT take action over the 2007 trials * * *

The ICO have written to me in relation to the complaint I had made about the 2007 trials (re: BT intercepted my communications - told me I had a virus)
"BT have confirmed that no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during either trial"

... APART FROM ALL YOUR PERSONAL WEB TRAFFIC.

"it would have been difficult to frame any advice for customers about the operation of cookies, and obtain any relevant consents"

... THATS WHY YOU DON'T DO IT. IF YOU CAN'T COMPLY WITH THE LAW YOU DON'T ACT.

"BT’s view is that as the 2007 trial was small scale and technical in nature and no adverts were served"

... THAT'S BT's VIEW. ITS THE JOB OF THE INFORMATION COMMISSION TO PROTECT ALL THOSE PEOPLE INVOLVED. ONE IS TOO MANY. ONE THOUSAND IS TOO MANY. TEN THOUSAND IS TOO MANY.



Is there a way to complain or appeal that decision?

If that is the best ICO can do, well, this *absolutely* reeks of political corruption.

Pete.

popper 31-05-2008 18:31
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34564340)
What's with the rather anonymously-named-geeky-sounding 'noDPI' website then? Aren't the bases already covered by this excellent forum and the equally excellent inphormationdesk? Sorry, have I missed something :erm:?
in a way ,yes, but the NoDPI seems set to cover far more than mear Phorm DPI, it can cover all the worlds Deep Packet Inspection/Interception For Profit type operations that are sure to come calling soon, not just the UK part such as the two or three main ones we already know.

such as NebuAd thats got a Uk office ready to start operations once the Phorm trials finally appear and settle one way or the other.

the Experian (1 of the 3 main Uk Credit Reference Agency's)
Experion ClickMe that want to link their existing data into the unlawful interception DPI data they and their partners collect.

and, the Mobile phone Phorm type selling of DPI data that Orange #mobile_phorm type interception are performing and exanding(perhaps right now?)in the near future for instance.

its all the rage and the Mobile 3G/WiMax DPI interception markets are seen as the new MEGA cashcow (far bigger than any current SMS/WAP unlawful data collection for profit etc)for all the Uk, and indeed the worlds mobile data networks.

lardycake 31-05-2008 18:43
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
@Frank (and probably anyone else who makes a complaint to that useless organisation called the ICO)
The ICO have a complaints procedure which you will probably have to follow. It eventually leads to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman.

ICO Complaints procedure

EDIT: just to clarify, a procedure to complain about the ICO itself

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 19:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564225)
A thought has just crossed what I laughingly call my brain, could be a new wrinkle..

Does phorm/BT's activity contravene our human rights (as in European Court of)?
Yes. But the court of human rights is only applicable to public authorities not companies. The complaint to the EU Court of Human Rights would have to be about ICOs lack of action.

Alexander Hanff

popper 31-05-2008 19:16
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
it seems everyone missed the Click! 2.28 second coverage of Phorm on their security show update this morning.

they do seem intent on putting the Phorm case and the emails they chose for the Anti-Phorm case were very weak to say the least, but here it is anyway.

full size AVC (H.264,Mpeg4-part10) 2.28 clip
http://www.divshare.com/download/4627159-d39

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/new...23_16x9_bb.asx

Linux/OtherOS VLC users direct link cut and paste the full url as its got a carrage return in it to keep it from scrolling off the browser screen.

mms://wm-acl.bbc.co.uk/wms/news/media_acl/mps/fix/news/science_nature/
video/177000/bb/177023_16x9_bb.wmv

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 19:37
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
We still need more Diggs

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564182)
* * * ICO will NOT take action over the 2007 trials * * *

The ICO have written to me in relation to the complaint I had made about the 2007 trials (re: BT intercepted my communications - told me I had a virus)
I have passed this information on to Chris Williams and sent you a PM.

Alexander Hanff

Rchivist 31-05-2008 19:45
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564356)
On the subject of ICO, it appears they had testes once upon a time..

Can someone legal find a precedent that creates a discord with what they have just done with Mr Rizzo's complaint? PDF attached.
I'm planning to add information about cookie handling on bt.com, to an existing complaint to ICO, about the way webwise.bt.com/webwise/contact.php operated on 28 May 2008 when I made a test visit. (when it lived over in the USA and sent forwarded emails to customers with headers including reference to ww3.phorm.com) - and I also have todays logs, of a similar visit, AFTER webwise.bt.com got frantically repatriated to UK, and all the code rewritten between 28th and 31st May.

Here's what the new rewritten, relocated BT Webwise pages get up to now that BT have a few days trying to make them legal, decent honest and truthful.

Here is a bit of dephormation logging done AFTER I deleted ALL bt.com cookies manually, logged in to BT Beta forums, and then logged OUT, closed then reopened my browser, then visited webwise.bt.com and filled out a contact.php form.

The first bit shows what the browser is doing as I visit webwise.bt.com (Remember I am NOT logged in to bt.com)

Dephormation Message
Date Time: 31/5/2008 17:31.50
Current Location: http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/in...oLDesc=KB_1167
Current Cookies: JSESSIONID_bta=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF; SMSESSION=LOGGEDOFF; JSESSIONID_btPortalWebApp=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF; btcom.userName=MYPRIMARYBTEMAILADDRESS@btinternet. com; btcom.isLoggedIn=Yes; btcom.dateVisited=31/05/2008; s_cc=true; s_sq=getreportsuiteidMUNGEDSearchBLAHResultsBLAHBL AHpidtBLAHoidBLAHBLAH
http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/in...BLAHDlinkclick
BLAHoLNameBLAHDlink.searchresultsBLAHBLAH; PHPSESSID=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF
-------------------------------------------

and the next bit is the visit to the contact.php submission page - still NOT logged into bt.com

-------------------------------------------

Dephormation Message
Date Time: 31/5/2008 17:31.57
Current Location: http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/contact.php
Current Cookies: JSESSIONID_bta=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF; SMSESSION=LOGGEDOFF; JSESSIONID_btPortalWebApp=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF; btcom.userName=MYPRIMARYBTEMAILADDRESS@btinternet. com; btcom.isLoggedIn=Yes; btcom.dateVisited=31/05/2008; s_cc=true; s_sq=getreportsuiteidBLAHSearchBLAHResultsBLAHpidt BLAHoidBLAH
http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/in...ype%25253Dlink
click%252526oLName%25253Dlink.searchresultsBLAH; PHPSESSID=ENCRYPTEDSTUFF
-------------------------------------------

I suppose the ICO will just ask BT if there is anything suspicious about that lot, and BT will say, "Of course not Commissioner - we have sought, er conducted, er extensive legal avice into that iss... er around that area" and that will be the end of it.

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 19:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I have contacted Rory Cellan-Jones from the BBC as well to see if he would be interested in joining us at the protest.

Alexander Hanff

popper 31-05-2008 20:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Robert, can you edit your post before the time limit runs out for editing,and add some carrage returns in the right places to break up the long data strings, as they are scrolling off the webpage, and make yours and all the other posts really hard to read as they re-flow to the wider view, thanks

thanks, that works and looks far better for me ;)


---------- Post added at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34564450)
I have contacted Rory Cellan-Jones from the BBC as well to see if he would be interested in joining us at the protest.

Alexander Hanff
you might not get any good answers but id be interested in Spencer Kelly of Click! attending or at least getting some answers as put from the real AntiPhorm perspective on video.

why did he come across as a Phorm advocate in the shows for instance, does he really side with the Pro-Phorm stance, and if so what are his PERSONAL thoughts on our legal and moral points etc as put here?

what part did Click! Richard Taylor Editor and Series Producer,
Chris Long Producer ,and/or,Talia Franco Producer, play in this some might say Pro-Phorm coverage direction ?; was spencer a mear talking head in all this, and if so ,whats his real view if he's fully informed about the subject, if he's not then he should read the full thread ;)

NTLVictim 31-05-2008 20:32
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34564434)
Yes. But the court of human rights is only applicable to public authorities not companies. The complaint to the EU Court of Human Rights would have to be about ICOs lack of action.

Alexander Hanff
So, it can be done on that basis?

Rchivist 31-05-2008 20:34
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564462)
Robert, can you edit your post before the time limit runs out for editing,and add some carrage returns in the right places to break up the long data strings, as they are scrolling off the webpage, and make yours and all the other posts really hard to read as they re-flow to the wider view, thanks

thanks, that works and looks far better for me ;)


---------- Post added at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------



you might not get any good answers but id be interested in Spencer Kelly of Click! attending or at least getting some answers as put from the real AntiPhorm perspective on video.

why did he come across as a Phorm advocate in the shows for instance, does he really side with the Pro-Phorm stance, and if so what are his PERSONAL thoughts on our legal and moral points etc as put here?
Remember that BBC have an obligation to be balanced, and they know that the more scurrilous corporations are the ones that take that obligation the most seriously and are probably the most likely to be litigious. So when dealing with the strong and evil, they well be more neutral than when dealing with an ordinary vulnerable individual member of the public.

lardycake 31-05-2008 20:37
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Posted a link to Phorm_Protest_Event

on the debian forums inviting people to "digg it" (mentioned NebuAd to get the US users interest). I would hope most debian users would be sympathetic

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 20:37
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564462)
you might not get any good answers but id be interested in Spencer Kelly of Click! attending or at least getting some answers as put from the real AntiPhorm perspective on video.

why did he come across as a Phorm advocate in the shows for instance, does he really side with the Pro-Phorm stance, and if so what are his PERSONAL thoughts on our legal and moral points etc as put here?
Already contacted the producer of Click (Dan Simmons).

New article on NoDPI:
http://nodpi.org/?p=6

Digg:
http://digg.com/politics/ICO_Rubber_...e_Law_Breaking


Alexander Hanff

lardycake 31-05-2008 20:44
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564479)
So, it can be done on that basis?
...but I think that first you would have to go thu the ICOs own internal procedure to complain about the ICO, then take it to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman (see post #7719 just above this). There may even be more hoops to jump thru after that...

popper 31-05-2008 20:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34564485)
Already contacted the producer of Click (Dan Simmons).

New article on NoDPI:
http://nodpi.org/?p=6

Digg:
http://digg.com/politics/ICO_Rubber_...e_Law_Breaking


Alexander Hanff
that link lists Dan Simmons as a Click! Reporter ?

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 20:56
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564496)
that link lists Dan Simmons as a Click! Reporter ?
Dan Simmons was the person I communicated with with regards my appearance on Click (he contacted me). So by contacting him it should make it through to the Click team.

Alexander Hanff

popper 31-05-2008 21:07
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
ohh right, if their up for it, he might get some mobile phone video footage (or use a pro camera to make some footage and place it in the Public domain for all to see)of the producers teams personal thoughts on this Phorm lark ;)

are the Click! Richard Taylor Editor and Series Producer,
Chris Long Producer ,and/or,Talia Franco Producer,and their familys happy to be ISP/Phorm DPI wiretaped for commercial profit on their home Broadband connections if they happen to be part of the 70% plus of the Uk BB covered, i wonder

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 21:20
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lardycake (Post 34564489)
...but I think that first you would have to go thu the ICOs own internal procedure to complain about the ICO, then take it to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman (see post #7719 just above this). There may even be more hoops to jump thru after that...
Yes it would be advisable to for him to follow the ICO complaints procedure first and then if that doesn't achieve anything he needs to write to his MP making it clear that he is doing so as required under Parliamentary Ombudsman regulations. If his MP is unable to get them to do anything he would then go straight to the Parliamentary Ombudsman for an official complaint.

However, given the EU Commission's stance on this earlier this week, there is no harm in contacting his MEP referencing the EU Commission statement asking them to now act on his behalf.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:20 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

Forwarded the NoDPI article on ICO to Open Rights Group, FIPR and Earl of Northesk.

Alexander Hanff

Dephormation 31-05-2008 22:12
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564182)
* * * ICO will NOT take action over the 2007 trials * * *

The ICO have written to me in relation to the complaint I had made about the 2007 trials (re: BT intercepted my communications - told me I had a virus)
Incidentally this is why BT (and Virgin) customers must never never rely on Phorm's opt out.

If it does transpire that Phorm and BT (or Virgin) have ignored your decision to opt out ICO will do nothing at all.

ICO will be assured by BT (or Virgin) that it was a small scale issue (ie, only you were affected), nothing personal was disclosed (even though they processed your entire personal web traffic), and BT have received imaginary legal advice from the garden gnomes that says they are purer than driven snow.

ICO will accept that assurance, do no investigation, and your complaints will be dismissed.

You can't stay with a Phorming ISP. You have no regulatory protection.

Pete.

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/1.jpg

bluecar1 31-05-2008 22:47
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34564559)
Incidentally this is why BT (and Virgin) customers must never never rely on Phorm's opt out.

If it does transpire that Phorm and BT (or Virgin) have ignored your decision to opt out ICO will do nothing at all.

ICO will be assured by BT (or Virgin) that it was a small scale issue (ie, only you were affected), nothing personal was disclosed (even though they processed your entire personal web traffic), and BT have received imaginary legal advice from the garden gnomes that says they are purer than driven snow.

ICO will accept that assurance, do no investigation, and your complaints will be dismissed.

You can't stay with a Phorming ISP. You have no regulatory protection.

Pete.

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/1.jpg

should that not be a laughing gnome (laughing all the way to the bank)????

Rchivist 31-05-2008 23:04
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
1 Attachment(s)
Now just rehearse this phrase carefully for the TV cameras...

popper 31-05-2008 23:23
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
i linked this one to the Digg rather than direct to see if it helps improve visability
http://current.com/items/88992107_ic...e_law_breaking

the other one put last night has had only 67 views and zero responses so far.
http://current.com/items/88990813_uk...16th_july_2008

a smaller, but non the less, just as informative gfx placed on all the NoDPI pages might be useful, as currentTV submitted News trys to take any gfx thats on the URL linked page and use it inside the CTV page.

AlexanderHanff 31-05-2008 23:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564637)
i linked this one to the Dugg rather than direct to see if it helps improve visability
http://current.com/items/88992107_ic...e_law_breaking

the other one put last night has had only 67 views and zero responses so far.
http://current.com/items/88990813_uk...16th_july_2008
Good job poppy.

I have contacted someone with regards to sponsoring the event, I don't know what sort of reaction i will get but said person is a millionaire and very much regarded as a public figure. I have spoken to him on a number of occasions in the past on other matters so hopefully he will want to help.

As an update and very positive news the nodpi donations link has so far raised £110 so thank you to everyone who has donated.

Alexander Hanff

Dephormation 31-05-2008 23:30
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564182)
* * * ICO will NOT take action over the 2007 trials * * *

The ICO have written to me in relation to the complaint I had made about the 2007 trials (re: BT intercepted my communications - told me I had a virus)
Steven,

you could make a very specific FOI request to the Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas.

I'd ask
- What attempts were made by ICO to obtain evidence/documentation from BT
- What evidence/documentation was requested by ICO, and disclosed by BT
- What evidence/documentation was requested by ICO, and declined by BT
- Which BT staff members were interviewed
- What was the record of those interviews
- What third party technical experts were interviewed
- What was the record of those interviews

This information requires little or no cost to report (so shouldn't fall foul of the expense limit). I think the answers to those questions would give you a great deal more evidence to support an EU complaint (because I expect they would demonstrate ICO did nothing to adequately investigate your complaint ).

Pete.

Kursk 31-05-2008 23:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564409)
in a way ,yes....snip...
Ok, thank you popper ;) Incidentally, no sign of 80/20 Thinking these days; I wonder if they are all thunked out? Perhaps Simon realises the once much awaited PIA is already yesterday's fish and chip paper.

serial 01-06-2008 00:21
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
It depresses me that PI, who would normally have been all over this, have been neutered due to the 80/20 involvement. At the time when the public finally are waking up to how the internet has the ability to profile them, the group we most want to defend us has sold out.

BadPhormula 01-06-2008 00:31
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564437)
it seems everyone missed the Click! 2.28 second coverage of Phorm on their security show update this morning.

they do seem intent on putting the Phorm case and the emails they chose for the Anti-Phorm case were very weak to say the least, but here it is anyway.

full size AVC (H.264,Mpeg4-part10) 2.28 clip
http://www.divshare.com/download/4627159-d39

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/new...23_16x9_bb.asx

Linux/OtherOS VLC users direct link cut and paste the full url as its got a carrage return in it to keep it from scrolling off the browser screen.

mms://wm-acl.bbc.co.uk/wms/news/media_acl/mps/fix/news/science_nature/
video/177000/bb/177023_16x9_bb.wmv


LOL :rofl:

PhormPR wrote into Click pretending to be an honest Joe. We know who you are Demi Tait ;)

Kursk 01-06-2008 00:43
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serial (Post 34564668)
It depresses me that PI, who would normally have been all over this, have been neutered due to the 80/20 involvement. At the time when the public finally are waking up to how the internet has the ability to profile them, the group we most want to defend us has sold out.
They say prostitution is the oldest profession ;)

BadPhormula 01-06-2008 00:45
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serial (Post 34564668)
It depresses me that PI, who would normally have been all over this, have been neutered due to the 80/20 involvement. At the time when the public finally are waking up to how the internet has the ability to profile them, the group we most want to defend us has sold out.

"sold out" how much do you reckon? 30 pieces of silver? What happened to the guy that sold out for 30 pieces of silver, what happened when he had to deal with his guilty conscience?

Kursk 01-06-2008 00:52
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadPhormula (Post 34564691)
"sold out" how much do you reckon? 30 pieces of silver? What happened to the guy that sold out for 30 pieces of silver, what happened when he had to deal with his guilty conscience?
Money talks I guess ;)

popper 01-06-2008 02:14
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
i assume the auto responder CurrentTV bot sent this, so i thought id let you see it and perhaps help make Alexanders news post get some TV Air time.

now might also be a good time to make (one of many in the future)and link directly in to the NoDPI story page, a short section "Anti-Phorm video" outlining the bits we want people to know about etc, or even place it on CurrentTV directly also.

the other currentTV story #7738 could do with some comments to fill it out too, as only one person there so far has commented on this story.

"...
An item that you submitted to Current has gained enough momentum to be featured on the US homepage. It was posted on the homepage at May 31, 2008 4:02:35 PM.
Check it out: http://current.com/items/88992107_ico_rubber_stamp_corporate_law_breaking
But wait-it gets better! Getting on the homepage means your submission is being considered for inclusion in our Current News pod, an open, participatory newscast on the web and Current TV.

How do you get your item included in Current News? Your votes, comments and sharing activity all merge together in our algorithmic soup to bubble up the most fascinating content to the top of the Current.com homepage.

Use the send button to let your friends know about your awesome post and encourage them to vote on your submission, and improve your chances of making it to air.

You can also include a link on your Myspace, Facebook, blog, or other social networking sites-tell everyone to come vote for you!

Don't forget to check the timer on the homepage, so you know how much time is left before the next item is chosen for Current News.

Want to improve your chances of getting on TV? Use the share button to let your friends know about your awesome post and encourage them to vote on your submission.
Best,
The Online Community Team "

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 03:23
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564732)
i assume the auto responder CurrentTV bot sent this, so i thought id let you see it and perhaps help make Alexanders news post get some TV Air time.

now might also be a good time to make (one of many in the future)and link directly in to the NoDPI story page, a short section "Anti-Phorm video" outlining the bits we want people to know about etc, or even place it on CurrentTV directly also.

the other currentTV story #7738 could do with some comments to fill it out too, as only one person there so far has commented on this story.

"...
An item that you submitted to Current has gained enough momentum to be featured on the US homepage. It was posted on the homepage at May 31, 2008 4:02:35 PM.
Check it out: http://current.com/items/88992107_ico_rubber_stamp_corporate_law_breaking
But wait-it gets better! Getting on the homepage means your submission is being considered for inclusion in our Current News pod, an open, participatory newscast on the web and Current TV.

How do you get your item included in Current News? Your votes, comments and sharing activity all merge together in our algorithmic soup to bubble up the most fascinating content to the top of the Current.com homepage.

Use the send button to let your friends know about your awesome post and encourage them to vote on your submission, and improve your chances of making it to air.

You can also include a link on your Myspace, Facebook, blog, or other social networking sites-tell everyone to come vote for you!

Don't forget to check the timer on the homepage, so you know how much time is left before the next item is chosen for Current News.

Want to improve your chances of getting on TV? Use the share button to let your friends know about your awesome post and encourage them to vote on your submission.
Best,
The Online Community Team "
Commented.

Alexander Hanff

popper 01-06-2008 05:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
yeah Alexander, i just noticed i got an email notice with your comment, the site is showing 3 replys (including mine) were made ,BUT i dont see your reply there, odd, do you see it?

http://current.com/items/88992107_ic...e_law_breaking
if anyone wants to join CurrentTV and take a look etc

also im only seeing 3 of 5 reported comments on
http://digg.com/politics/ICO_Rubber_...e_Law_Breaking

and 9 of 17 on
http://digg.com/tech_news/No_DPI_web..._Protest_Event

somethings not right, im looking on 3 seperate browsers on one machine,and im about to look on one of the other machines to see if its this OS being effected.....

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 05:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564754)
yeah Alexander, i just noticed i got an email notice with your comment, the site is showing 3 replys (including mine) were made ,BUT i dont see your reply there, odd, do you see it?

http://current.com/items/88992107_ic...e_law_breaking
if anyone wants to join CurrentTV and take a look etc

also im only seeing 3 of 5 reported comments on
http://digg.com/politics/ICO_Rubber_...e_Law_Breaking
Click the "One response to this" image under the top comment on the CurrentTV one.

As for Digg, I dunno about that I have the same problem and had the same problem with the article I posted yesterday too regarding the protest. I think Digg comments might be bugged.

I just reposted my comment on current.tv so that it appears as a new comment as opposed to a reply to the other comment.


Alexander Hanff

popper 01-06-2008 05:58
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
doh! , that + was it ;) , yes, i can see your post there now.

you are right about Digg, i looked on one of the new installed SP3 machines here (and a slax liveCD browser) and it appears eather the Digg is broke or the people did something wrong when they posted so its not showing up but registered as a reply....

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 06:03
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by popper (Post 34564756)
doh! , that + was it ;) , yes, i can see your post there now.

you are right about Digg, i looked on one of the new installed SP3 machines here (and a slax liveCD browser) and it appears eather the Digg is broke or the people did something wrong when they posted so its not showing up but registered as a reply....
I checked it from multiple machines yesterday and had the same problem. I even made a comment about it on the Protest story.

Alexander Hanff

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 09:57
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I have gone out on a bit of a limb here, but hey you never know unless you ask

Quote:
Dear Mr Gates,

I am writing to you from the UK to bring to your attention a very high profile issue regarding privacy.

I am not sure if you aware, but over the past 3 months plans by the top 3 UK ISPs (BT, Virgin Media and Car Phone Warehouse) to deploy Deep Packet Inspection technology by Phorm Inc. have caused a storm with leading academics, privacy advocates, press, media, MPs, MEPs, European Commission, Peers in the House of Lords and the general public as a whole. The plan is to use the technology to intercept all web communications sent over port 80 using the HTTP protocol, in order to build profiles of their customers and then sell these details to advertisers via Phorm for behavioural advertising.

This technology (used for this purpose) has been stated as illegal by legal experts and politicians and breaches the public's fundamental human rights under the European Convention on Human Rights (Articles 7 and 8) and as a result of the negative publicity over the past 3 months, Phorm Inc's share price has plummeted by 70% reducing their market capital by some $600 million USD. But this is not enough and plans are still ongoing to deploy this technology across 70% of the UK broadband market.

I have personally been leading the campaign against Phorm and have made numerous appearances in the press and media as well as attending a Privacy Impact Assessment public meeting at the London School of Economics in April as a guest speaker. I am now in the process of organising a public protest rally at the BT annual shareholder's meeting in London on July 16th. I recently published my dissertation on the legal issues surrounding covert trials BT carried out on as many as 138 000 customers during 2006/2007 (which you can find linked to at the end of this email) and this protest will address not only the future plans to deploy Phorm but also these covert trials.

I am just one person and I have very little money (I am about to graduate from university and have a child and mortgage) so I am seeking corporate sponsorship for the event to help publicise it in the national press, print material for the event and hire equipment to allow us to have guest speakers at the event; this is the purpose of my email to you.

I feel this would be a very good publicity move for Microsoft or yourself personally if you choose to sponsor the event in your own name as opposed to Microsoft. I have already managed to achieve significant press interest and if I were to announce a major sponsor it would undoubtedly make news headlines across the country and probably Europe and the US as well.

If you have any question or would like to discuss this further with me, please do not hesitate to email me on this address. I have included a number of links below to give you some further information.

My Dissertation - http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf
Comprehensive list of articles by Chris Williams at The Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/
Video of my speech at London School of Economics - http://www.tobymeres.net/ (bottom video in the list)
Foundation for Information Policy Research papers - http://www.fipr.org/press/080423phorm.html
Event Web Site - http://nodpi.org
News article on the event - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...phorm_protest/

Quote from Kim Cameron - Chief Architect of Identity in the Connected Systems Division at Microsoft

"I have to admit to a sense of horror when I realized the system rewards ISPs for abusing their trusted role in the Internet by improperly posing as other peoples’ domains in order to create fraudulent cookies and place them on users machines."
source: http://www.identityblog.com/?p=951

I thank you for your time on this matter and look forward to hearing your response. Of course if you do choose to sponsor the event, full credit will be given on the web site and printed material, furthermore, if Microsoft would like to send a representative to speak out against this intrusive technology at the event, I would be honoured to add them to the confirmed speakers list.

Sincerely,

Alexander Hanff
University of Cumbria
Alexander Hanff

bluecar1 01-06-2008 10:15
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
anyone noticed the modereators over on the BT forum seems to have gone silent,

and i have not noticed any posts being edited or removed lately?

perhaps they are actually watching the progress and it is ringing alarm bells with them?

peter

Hank 01-06-2008 10:25
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34564791)
...and i have not noticed any posts being edited or removed lately?
If they resume edits of posts then they would do well to start with the first post LOL...

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...=2612&tstart=0

I'm sure you know the one - from Adam Liversage:

"BT will begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service from mid-March, 2008. We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband customers to take part in the trial." LOL. ROFL.

Hank

bluecar1 01-06-2008 10:54
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
alex just sent you a pm with an idea you may want to consider and keep quiet for now

NTLVictim 01-06-2008 11:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34564641)
Good job poppy.

I have contacted someone with regards to sponsoring the event, I don't know what sort of reaction i will get but said person is a millionaire and very much regarded as a public figure.
It's not Richard Branson, is it?

Dephormation 01-06-2008 11:05
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Anyone able to confirm www.webwise.bt.com has vanished and the IP address is not responding to ping?

Pinging www.webwise.bt.com [207.44.186.90] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 207.44.186.90:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),


"reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 11:10
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34564813)
Anyone able to confirm www.webwise.bt.com has vanished and the IP address is not responding to ping?

Pinging www.webwise.bt.com [207.44.186.90] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 207.44.186.90:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),


"reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated"
Seems dead here. Traceroute dies too.

Alexander Hanff

NTLVictim 01-06-2008 11:13
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Timed out.

Dephormation 01-06-2008 11:16
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Yep;
C:\Documents and Settings\Me>tracert www.webwise.bt.com
Unable to resolve target system name www.webwise.bt.com.
Gone.

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 11:17
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I am just going to grab a couple of hours sleep. I am hoping to talk to ORG later on this afternoon.

I should be back around 3-4pm.

Alexander Hanff

bluecar1 01-06-2008 11:20
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
could several of us take PI's interim PIA as a framework and write our own PIA?

this would be independant (as none of us are in the pocket of BT etc) and it would cause far more interest than a edited sexed up version released by phorm?

it could be launched at the demo, another reason for press to turn up and give us a bit of coverage

would any of you be interested in helping?

alex would have final say on content?

peter

Dephormation 01-06-2008 11:21
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
:drunk:

Full credit to Rob.

bluecar1 01-06-2008 11:23
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34564824)
Yep;
C:\Documents and Settings\Me>tracert www.webwise.bt.com
Unable to resolve target system name www.webwise.bt.com.
Gone.
and goingt to www.bt.com/webwise dies as well so they have not redirected to elsewhere

BadPhormula 01-06-2008 11:29
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564812)
It's not Richard Branson, is it?
Branson is hiding under a rock waiting for this Phorm cr~p to blow over. Like many of these kind of public attention grabbing slurpers they'll be crawling out of the woodwork when it's safe to do so.

To catch Branson's attention, and trick him into a public appearance Alex should advertise for a partner to accompany him on some super fast around the world Phileas Fogg kind of venture. Just wrap the 16th July events podium in wicker basket material and wait for the grinning bearded one to turn up. :D

Kursk 01-06-2008 11:31
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34564828)
could several of us take PI's interim PIA as a framework and write our own PIA?
peter
I don't think we need a PIA and we certainly wouldn't need to plagiarise from the meaningless. There's no need to apply a legitimate process to an illegal concept imho. My prediction for 80/20's PIA is that it will never see the light of day or will be covered in whitewash. At least it wastes some of Phorm's money but I suppose buying in a potential opponent was a sneaky move. Shame 80/20 either didn't see through it or simply weighed up the deal and took the handout.

NTLVictim 01-06-2008 11:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
If you google "BT AGM 2008", the protest is top hit...

Portly_Giraffe 01-06-2008 11:41
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
A quick question while I update inphormationdesk.

Was sysip.net a Phorm domain at the time of the 2007 trials, and if not who owned and operated it?

(Forgive me if this has already been covered, I only came in at post 1992).

Cobbydaler 01-06-2008 11:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564812)
It's not Richard Branson, is it?
No... ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34564783)
I have gone out on a bit of a limb here, but hey you never know unless you ask

Dear Mr Gates,

<Snip>

Alexander Hanff

Kursk 01-06-2008 11:50
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobbydaler (Post 34564847)
No... ;)
Although inviting the world's greatest exponent of the electronic era to bakroll opposition to the lazy man's way to e-riches is a questionable strategy. My experience of 'selling yourself' is that someone else then owns you. Ask 80/20 about that one.

GeoffW 01-06-2008 11:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I can't see this getting very far with Microsoft. Their current arch enemy is Google who generate loads of cash from Google ads, they would see Phorm as a competitor who could steal revenue from Google so would probably be more inclined to support data pimping IMHO.

Kursk 01-06-2008 11:59
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffW (Post 34564854)
I can't see this getting very far with Microsoft. Their current arch enemy is Google who generate loads of cash from Google ads, they would see Phorm as a competitor who could steal revenue from Google so would probably be more inclined to support data pimping IMHO.
With the greatest of respect to our ebullient leader, it was a rather naive move imo. I'm afraid I cringed in parts. I mean no offence but representing this cause must not get confused with personal aspiration.

Frank Rizzo 01-06-2008 12:07
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
portly - sysip.net domain 2007.

In July 2007 it was registered to 121media.com and specifically in the name of Ahmet Can.

kagemusha 01-06-2008 12:08
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Did anyone else find the announcement that pensioners private data is to be shared with corporations in the name of 'fighting fuel poverty' a tad worrying?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7426123.stm

Guess what? It's going to be opt-out as well. Call me a suspicious type, but here's an excuse to change the DPA in favour of organisations such as Phorm.

tdadyslexia 01-06-2008 12:11
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffW (Post 34564854)
I can't see this getting very far with Microsoft. Their current arch enemy is Google who generate loads of cash from Google ads, they would see Phorm as a competitor who could steal revenue from Google so would probably be more inclined to support data pimping IMHO.
Why would Microsoft want support Phorm data pimping wen Microsoft wants Yahoo! :shocked:

Portly_Giraffe 01-06-2008 12:32
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Rizzo (Post 34564859)
portly - sysip.net domain 2007.

In July 2007 it was registered to 121media.com and specifically in the name of Ahmet Can.
Many thanks - here's a question I'll be submitting to the ICO and putting up on Inphormationdesk when I complete the update later today:

"Given that the data in the BT trials was processed at sysip.net, a domain operated outside the BT network by a former adware company with a poor ethical record, on what basis do you think privacy was not at risk?"

Let me know if it needs correcting or improving.

Hank 01-06-2008 12:45
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34564828)
could several of us take PI's interim PIA as a framework and write our own PIA?

this would be independant (as none of us are in the pocket of BT etc) ...

peter
Well I would find it hard personally, to write an independant PIA on Phorm, BT's implementation Webwise or anything to do with DPI! However, with several re-reads and re-writes I am sure there are enough capable authors here who would do a factual PIA which is unbiased etc. Interesting thought Peter...

Hank

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34564839)
If you google "BT AGM 2008", the protest is top hit...
Immediately below the official BT page for the event on my Google results (global anyway... on the Search UK only it is, oddly, further down)

Hank

---------- Post added at 12:45 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34564831)
and goingt to www.bt.com/webwise dies as well so they have not redirected to elsewhere
Searched BT pages for Webwise. Result came back - 1 item. Clicked link and yep...

Quote:
Internet Explorer cannot display the webpage

Most likely causes:
- You are not connected to the Internet.
- The website is encountering problems.
- There might be a typing error in the address.
Does anyone think that "The website is encountering problems"? :D

Hank

jelv 01-06-2008 12:50
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:

Stage 1

Change the T&Cs for new users joining the service. These would include their version of what the Phorm/Webwise system does and could say that by agreeing to these T&Cs you are agreeing to be opted in to Webwise by default. BT/Phorm would then be able to say people had made inphormed consent.

We all know that many people just click agree without reading the conditions.

Stage 2

Require people changing or adding products to their service to agree to the T&Cs as above. For example, they will at some stage be moving people across to the higher ADSL2+ speeds offered under 21CN, this would be a great opportunity for them to effectively impose acceptance of changed conditions - accept Phorm or you can't have the higher speeds.


Going further, would it be legal for BT to at some stage to repeat the above, only making Phorm/Webwise mandatory with no opt out?

If the above is possible, surely that is a very strong argument against those idiots who are at present saying they are not too bothered because they will be able to opt out. Widespread penetration of Phorm in to the ISP market would put Kent in to an incredibly powerful position of being able to control the information fed to the masses.

Unfortunately, we can all think of examples around the world where people have only been shaken out of their apathy and tried to stand up to be counted after the argument has been lost. We must make sure that Kent (Adolf) Entrugel isn't allowed to become the latest example of evil men who succeed to gaining an inappropriate level of power.

Rchivist 01-06-2008 14:19
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34564791)
anyone noticed the modereators over on the BT forum seems to have gone silent,

and i have not noticed any posts being edited or removed lately?

perhaps they are actually watching the progress and it is ringing alarm bells with them?

peter
The reason they are quiet, is because they are too busy trying to chase the BTWebwise site around the internet and around the globe since various facts came out about how the BT Webwise site has been operating.

www.webwise.bt.com has just disappeared - that's the one that used to resolve to the Phorm IP
http://webwise.bt.com is still live but living much closer to home than it used to last week.

I must confess to a feeling of satisfaction that we may have created a lot of work and panic at BT - but there again - maybe it is all part of a carefully planned schedule of routine maintenance in preparation for the trials - which will no doubt be happening any day now.

---------- Post added at 14:19 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelv (Post 34564904)
Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:

Stage 1

Change the T&Cs for new users joining the service. These would include their version of what the Phorm/Webwise system does and could say that by agreeing to these T&Cs you are agreeing to be opted in to Webwise by default. BT/Phorm would then be able to say people had made inphormed consent.

We all know that many people just click agree without reading the conditions.

Stage 2

Require people changing or adding products to their service to agree to the T&Cs as above. For example, they will at some stage be moving people across to the higher ADSL2+ speeds offered under 21CN, this would be a great opportunity for them to effectively impose acceptance of changed conditions - accept Phorm or you can't have the higher speeds.


Going further, would it be legal for BT to at some stage to repeat the above, only making Phorm/Webwise mandatory with no opt out?

If the above is possible, surely that is a very strong argument against those idiots who are at present saying they are not too bothered because they will be able to opt out. Widespread penetration of Phorm in to the ISP market would put Kent in to an incredibly powerful position of being able to control the information fed to the masses.

Unfortunately, we can all think of examples around the world where people have only been shaken out of their apathy and tried to stand up to be counted after the argument has been lost. We must make sure that Kent (Adolf) Entrugel isn't allowed to become the latest example of evil men who succeed to gaining an inappropriate level of power.
I would say that BT are probably headed in that direction already.

If someone agrees to the BT Webwise trials they will get new T&C's - already stated by BT.

If someone agrees to the Webwise rollout if it occurs - they will also get new T&C's

If someone takes a new contract or additional services BT already are routinely in the habit of imposing new T&C's - so that is not anything new.

However - whatever the T&C's say - if the basic technology is still illegal then it fails.

The crunch will as you say, be - what ARE the barriers to legality? Depsite all the FIPR/Clayton/Davies/Hanff reports - it still isn't clear to me that we have established the illegality of Webwise/Phorm technology - if we had, the ICO and the police wouldn't be throwing it all back at us and saying go take a jump.

We may be convinced - but have we convinced anyone else yet?

If the only barrier is just "informed consent" - then getting DPI and targetted advertising working across the user base will be relatively easy within a period of 12 months or so with some clever marketing and "added value services" like BT Vision/BT Anywhere etc.

My recent experiences tracking what BT do with my data right NOW have convinced me that ISP's need watching very carefully - but by WHO? No one seems interested in doing the job - neither the ICO or the Police who look like they will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the investigation.

bluecar1 01-06-2008 15:15
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kursk (Post 34564835)
I don't think we need a PIA and we certainly wouldn't need to plagiarise from the meaningless. There's no need to apply a legitimate process to an illegal concept imho. My prediction for 80/20's PIA is that it will never see the light of day or will be covered in whitewash. At least it wastes some of Phorm's money but I suppose buying in a potential opponent was a sneaky move. Shame 80/20 either didn't see through it or simply weighed up the deal and took the handout.
the idea is not plagerise, but use the PI pia as a framework to ensure all the relevant sections are included, without using any of their content.

the idea is in the absense of the official PI document to provide a fully independant one, which in the first paragraph makes it clear why it was written and the fact that all people who do not have a vested interest in phorm agree the DPI technology to be deployed breaks all the relevant regs (ripa, perc, dpa etc), then goes on to the main body which will included where the system break the relevant regs as part of the report.

this should then be presented to the press quoting we have done this to highlight the lack of this study and the fact it should have been part of any due diligence by BT etc, then wait for statements from phorm and BT

anyone want to help?

peter

NTLVictim 01-06-2008 15:57
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34565008)
the idea is not plagerise, but use the PI pia as a framework to ensure all the relevant sections are included, without using any of their content.

the idea is in the absense of the official PI document to provide a fully independant one, which in the first paragraph makes it clear why it was written and the fact that all people who do not have a vested interest in phorm agree the DPI technology to be deployed breaks all the relevant regs (ripa, perc, dpa etc), then goes on to the main body which will included where the system break the relevant regs as part of the report.

this should then be presented to the press quoting we have done this to highlight the lack of this study and the fact it should have been part of any due diligence by BT etc, then wait for statements from phorm and BT

anyone want to help?

peter
I'm good at polishing and injecting some emotion, tech docs tend to be a bit dry, and don't grab you by the throat.:)

OldBear 01-06-2008 16:09
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Fellas, didn't someone say that BT had some of this stuff hosted with theplanet.com? If so, this could be why it's gone:

Explosion at theplanet knocks out 9000 websites

OB

serial 01-06-2008 16:23
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I recommend everyone part of the campaign watches:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...16293369601334

Dephormation 01-06-2008 16:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldBear (Post 34565032)
Fellas, didn't someone say that BT had some of this stuff hosted with theplanet.com? If so, this could be why it's gone:

Explosion at theplanet knocks out 9000 websites

OB
Could be right, looks like that IP address resolves to Houston (according to this web site).

Shame. I sincerely hope it doesn't come back.

bluecar1 01-06-2008 16:39
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34565029)
I'm good at polishing and injecting some emotion, tech docs tend to be a bit dry, and don't grab you by the throat.:)
thanks i will pm you when i have some words together, i am working on it now and looking at the PI interim PIA and other, one thing that strikes me is the PI interim report misses large key areas of PIA's namely information gathered and how it is used ??

any others fancy helping

r. jones could you help with some information on how the system has evolved over the last month or so in response to queries and concerns raised here and on the bt forums, as you seem to have this sorted with your logs etc

peter

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 16:44
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobbydaler (Post 34564847)
No... ;)
No I wasn't referring to Bill Gates either, he is someone else I have contacted :)

Alexander Hanff

icsys 01-06-2008 16:47
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jelv (Post 34564904)
Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:

Stage 1

Change the T&Cs for new users joining the service. These would include their version of what the Phorm/Webwise system does and could say that by agreeing to these T&Cs you are agreeing to be opted in to Webwise by default. BT/Phorm would then be able to say people had made inphormed consent.

We all know that many people just click agree without reading the conditions.

Stage 2

Require people changing or adding products to their service to agree to the T&Cs as above. For example, they will at some stage be moving people across to the higher ADSL2+ speeds offered under 21CN, this would be a great opportunity for them to effectively impose acceptance of changed conditions - accept Phorm or you can't have the higher speeds.


Going further, would it be legal for BT to at some stage to repeat the above, only making Phorm/Webwise mandatory with no opt out?

If the above is possible, surely that is a very strong argument against those idiots who are at present saying they are not too bothered because they will be able to opt out. Widespread penetration of Phorm in to the ISP market would put Kent in to an incredibly powerful position of being able to control the information fed to the masses.
I would say that they may do it but...
The ISP could fall foul of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI 1999 No 2083) - Regulation 5(5) 1. (i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract - if T&C's are changed without proper written notification.

It is also possible that if Phorm's interception of the ISP users web surfing is proved to be illegal then consent obtained expressly by acceptance of terms and conditions will render that contract void and the contract terms are not enforceable. A contract which cannot be performed without doing something illegal is void.

The HO suggested in their notes at paragraph 20 that the service should be provided with the explicit consent of ISP's users or by the acceptance of the ISP's terms and conditions, and paragraph 21 which states that the ISP's users' consent can be obtained expressly by acceptance of suitable terms and conditions. I think that any T&C changes should be challenged.

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 16:48
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jelv (Post 34564904)
Thinking forward - if BT implement Phorm, could BT do the following and still stay within the law:
In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff

icsys 01-06-2008 16:55
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34565058)
In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff
Exactly!, I was just searching for that and the Unfair Trading Regulations.

The HO are out of order IMO for suggesting that acceptance of the ISP's terms and conditions is sufficient.
Stating that it was only an "informal guidance note" and "It should not be taken as a definitive statement or interpretation of the law", perhaps they should at least get aquainted with the law.

Berealwith 01-06-2008 17:00
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
gosh is this thread still going......................????

Is Phorm in or something, Lol

bluecar1 01-06-2008 17:13
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34565058)
In short no, informed consent means it has to be explicit permission, also the new consumer contract laws currently coming into the UK make hiding stuff in Terms and Conditions illegal.

Alexander Hanff
will that be retrospective or only to new contract signed after the change is made to the law?

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 17:22
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34565068)
will that be retrospective or only to new contract signed after the change is made to the law?
Unfortunately it isn't retrospective.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I will hopefully be talking to an old friend and ex business partner of mine on the phone today or tomorrow to see if he can generate some more publicity for us. JD Frazer is the author if Userfriendly comic strip (a very popular tech cartoon available on www.userfriendly.org) so I am going to ask him if he can cover the issue in his strip.

Given the move by Canadian legal groups at the moment to make DPI illegal for advertising, it should be right up his alley and if he does do a strip the publicity generated would be incredible.

Alexander Hanff

Rchivist 01-06-2008 19:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34565046)
Could be right, looks like that IP address resolves to Houston (according to this web site).

Shame. I sincerely hope it doesn't come back.
they're not having much luck with servers - the Fasthosts side of the operation went down a month or so ago which alerted us to the fact that it was being used for hosting, and now the Houston side blows up.

I sincerely hope the design for the Webwise implementation doesn't require this outsourced stuff to be functioning for ordinary browsing to work.

phormwatch 01-06-2008 19:37
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34565071)
Unfortunately it isn't retrospective.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:22 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I will hopefully be talking to an old friend and ex business partner of mine on the phone today or tomorrow to see if he can generate some more publicity for us. JD Frazer is the author if Userfriendly comic strip (a very popular tech cartoon available on www.userfriendly.org) so I am going to ask him if he can cover the issue in his strip.

Given the move by Canadian legal groups at the moment to make DPI illegal for advertising, it should be right up his alley and if he does do a strip the publicity generated would be incredible.

Alexander Hanff
Alex - I know you've been working tirelessly on this, but if you have the energy, you might try to contact Liberty:

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....ct/index.shtml

Don't bother sending an email, as they officially take up to eight weeks to respond, and unofficially they take infinity to respond.

Give them a ring. They are aware of the situation with Phorm, as I and at least a couple of other people have sent them a letter about it.

Invite them to the protest.

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 19:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34565162)
Alex - I know you've been working tirelessly on this, but if you have the energy, you might try to contact Liberty:

http://www.liberty-human-rights.org....ct/index.shtml

Don't bother sending an email, as they officially take up to eight weeks to respond, and unofficially they take infinity to respond.

Give them a ring. They are aware of the situation with Phorm, as I and at least a couple of other people have sent them a letter about it.

Invite them to the protest.
Might be better for me to use my contacts in ORG to do that for me, I presume they already have some form of relationship with them. I will ask Michael about it when I speak to him.

Alexander Hanff

Florence 01-06-2008 20:53
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
OK all god you have been busy while I was on holiday I left on page 499 just managed to reach the last page now.

I will be contacting BT shareholders and after assrances etc etc you all know the norm :D the boat is about to rock faster.

AlexanderHanff 01-06-2008 20:57
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Welcome Back Florence :)

Hope you had a nice break.

Alexander Hanff

Dephormation 01-06-2008 21:28
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34565248)
OK all god you have been busy while I was on holiday I left on page 499 just managed to reach the last page now.

I will be contacting BT shareholders and after auurances etc etc you all know the norm :D the boat is about to rock faster.
You weren't on holiday in Houston, Texas were you? ;)

Florence 01-06-2008 21:34
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34565271)
You weren't on holiday in Houston, Texas were you? ;)
Sadly no went to a place with no internet, electricity or running water in the van had to collect from tap but fresh spring water is really good for you back to nature :D
:angel:


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