Re: Brexit
 

Majority of sane people in UK, don’t give a shit why EU or indeed Tusk is angry. They are corrupted power hungry fools, on par with Hitler, with their obsession with their aims for an EU Army and more power stolen from their Member States.

Re: Brexit
 

So it's wrong for the EU to say there is a special place in Hell for those who promoted Brexit without a plan, but OK for us to say they are the equivalent of Nazis?

Re: Brexit
 

When an individual expresses a view about Nazi's /Eu it is just one persons view point ,when Tusk speaks about a special place in hell he is representing millions of voices over 28 country's ,diplomatically it's not big and it's not clever it's just an insult to our mp's and our people.

Re: Brexit
 

Didn't realise we could unilaterally draw up a plan without involving the EU.


At the moment Germany and France draw up the plans and then tell the others what to do.
Eg From Radio Times write up of "Inside Europe: 10 years of Turmoil".

Re: Brexit
 

How about when government ministers do it? Is this OK?

Re: Brexit
 

No it's not,if it's done in parliament it is falsely representing the people and the party .

Re: Brexit
 

They cast the first stone, the despicable anti-democratic fools!!!

When they want to grow a EU Army and steal sovereign power from their remaining membership countries, i'd say they were very much acting like power hungry Nazis!!!

Re: Brexit
 

Or even 50 years by Rees-Mogg's timeline.

Re: Brexit
 

A Despicable fool from the corrupted EU:

Re: Brexit
 

He reminds me of someone.

Re: Brexit
 

Boris Johnson and Rees-Mogg compared the EU to Hitler and the Nazis in May 2016, and Jeremy Hunt, our Foreign Secretary, compared the EU to the Soviet Union in September last year, i'm pretty sure we were first in the disparagement stakes.

And comparing an association of countries, who work together to support the less well off countries in the group, whilst using the power of a trading bloc to get the best deals for all it's citizens, with a regime that used force to invade other countries, committed horrific war crimes, and resulted in 60 million dead due to their actions, is complete hyperbolic.

---------- Post added at 15:51 ---------- Previous post was at 15:46 ----------

Anyhoo, a bit of humour - a mash up of JRM (using his own words) singing Pulp's "Common People" (JRM likes it, he even re-tweeted it).

Re: Brexit
 

We're asking them to work with us on a solution, it has to be two way thing.

Re: Brexit
 

Utter rubbish - The Countries you speak of do not work together at all, what utter nonsense. :rolleyes:

The EU is a power hungry Nazis like dictatorship that thankfully we in the UK are bold enough to decide on leaving.

Re: Brexit
 

Well these two certainly don't


MACRON FURY: France RECALLS ambassador in Rome over 'repeated attacks' - EU ON BRINK

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...sador-tensions

Re: Brexit
 

Precisely - it is utter bollocks to say EU Member States work together for the whole of the EU's collective interest, like hell they do. Such a ridiculous claim.

Macron's popularity is consistently sub 30%, not surprised, he is an utter clown trying desperate measures to stop the persistent Yellow vest protests in the country, it's failed miserably and from the footage I've seen of the heavy handed approach the police in France take against the protesters, his presidency is an utter disgrace.

Give them a peoples vote and given them an opportunity to Frexit from the corrupted and cancerous EU Dictatorship.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Mixed news for Labour on Brexit but like the Conservative Party, Brexit is tearing it apart as well
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8767931.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8767916.html

Re: Brexit
 

Just a couple of idiots blustering and blowing with half hearted threats . . . have they still not realised that it isn't working anymore?

Nobody is listening to them

Re: Brexit
 

And the cleaner down at the red lion says she'll quit if she's not on the darts team after brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Well what did you expect ? It's an impossible dream. Every type of Brexit leaves us worse off. It's reality check time.

Re: Brexit
 

Nope sounds like it's Groundhog day time, more of the same baseless negatives from you. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

it's Groundhog every day atm for Brexit ! :D

Re: Brexit
 

We'll be much worse off staying in the EU it's imploding and it's just a matter of time they want as much out of the UK as they can get. The problem is they are worried they are trying everything they can to stop us leaving.

Re: Brexit
 

They aren’t trying hard at all. They’ve laid out a clear position we find unpalatable.

Re: Brexit
 

It takes 2 sides to make a deal work. The EU are just sitting back and letting the UK do all the leg work and everytime we come up with a deal they just say NO.

This latest one gives them a lot of control still hence getting voted down. The only thing they made clear was the mickey take out of the UK all the time and they call us racist.

Re: Brexit
 

Why should they do anything? We're the ones that want to leave, up to us to find a solution. If want a deal we have to find one the EU agree to. Otherwise we leave with no deal. Our choice. Remember this is what you voted for (for some reason!), hope it was all explained to you beforehand....

Re: Brexit
 

No deal it is then.

Re: Brexit
 

Or Jezza's deal?
Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit plan 'promising', Donald Tusk tells Theresa May

Re: Brexit
 

If that's what you want, we do seem to desperate to get one though. Do the Govt. know something we don't ? i.e that it would be chaos and the Govt. of the day will be the fall guys... Think this is how Corbyn is seeing it.

Re: Brexit
 

Strange how all these issues of a lack of plan, backstop etc, didn't apply to the Scottish Independence vote.

Re: Brexit
 

Meanwhile, the US Congress puts more pressure on the UK to accept a backstop agreement by warning that a hard border could threaten a US-UK trade deal with the UK.
https://www.independent.ie/business/...-37791274.html

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Maybe that's because Leave didn't win that vote?

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

I think you're right. I suspect May wouldn't hang around for too long under such circumstances though.

Re: Brexit
 

The way both sides are faffing about I'd guess we're good to go :D

Re: Brexit
 

Well there's an interesting point. The Scottish independence referendum 'Yes' campaign was very details focused on issues such as fiscal union with the UK, leaving NATO, staying in the EU, shutting down Faslane etc. This was published in the white paper 'Scotland's Future (link - https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf) This let the critics in to tear apart these plans, showing many of them to be nonsense. There is a school of thought that if members of the 'Yes' campaign simply painted their faces blue and shouted FREEDOM a lot, the result may have been different as you can't dissect feelings like you can facts.

I think a lot was learned from this campaign when it came to the EU Referendum which was much lighter on solid promises of future states and more aspirational.

There is of course a fine line to be drawn here on relying too much on either feelings or facts when running a campaign. See the last General Election as an example where the Conservatives relied too much on simply not being Jeremy Corbyn with the thought this might be enough to win.

Political Sciences and psychology is fun!

Re: Brexit
 

Throughout the document it refers to negotiations being needed with the UK, EU etc. No finalised plans possible because of that. Scotland would never be able to join the EU until it had it's own separate currency, national bank, and got it's deficit down to less than 3%(it's around 8%, and that include oil). It lists FOUR currency options, not exactly an agreed all around and final plan. It's ALL based upon assumptions that they will be given everything they were asking for.



The EU never kicked up a fuss over there being a non-EU country(ie Scotland) having an open border with the EU via England.

Re: Brexit
 

That's because the SNP as part of the vote was proposing to be a separate EU member at the same time as independence
https://www2.gov.scot/Publications/2013/11/9348/10
So they would continue to be in the Customs Union and Single Market - which are the two things that the UK government has ruled out and why the backstop is in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Re: Brexit
 

Talking of SNP - they got an absolute pasting on BBCQT last night.... By a Glaswegian in the Audience, reminded me of a certain Troll splatter.... :rofl:

Re: Brexit
 

This is exactly my point - the proposed plans were published and subsequently rubbished by all and sundry. By being too clear in the campaign let the 'No' campaign in.

I think the EU Referendum Leave campaigners were deliberately more vague on future plans beyond 'freedom from the shackles of the EU' to avoid further scrutiny. It's smart and it worked

Re: Brexit
 

My point still stands that the SNP didn't have plan, they just had proposals and aspirations. It required agreements not yet reached, to achieve any of it. A lot of it's content doesn't have an equivalent in Brexit, because the UK has control of those issues and there won't be any changes there. Anything that is currency/financial system related won't be affected. There is not going to be a change in currency.

Re: Brexit
 

You’re right, they didn’t have a plan, they had a 600-page wish list dressed up as a White Paper - terminology deliberately chosen to imply detailed proposals only one step removed from a bill to be presented in parliament.

However they presented it as a plan, and it undid them. The wild promises of free money for all won them majorities in Glasgow and Dundee but thoroughly alienated everyone else. They failed to win Yes majorities even in districts where they had held parliamentary seats for decades (they have since lost several of those seats as well, mostly to Tories).

Vote Leave played a very canny game. They had aspirations and they presented them as such. They never once made a concrete claim of what would happen after the vote, though they did make many claims about what could happen. The £350 million NHS bus was one of those, and I think the fact that it wasn’t presented as a campaign promise is the reason why it has resisted all attempts to weaponise it, despite many furious attempts to do so by continuity remainers. They easily get themselves riled up over it, but it has never become the talisman of broken pledges that they have wanted it to be.

Of course this was not just canny campaigning by Vote Leave. It was never their remit to publish a manifesto because Vote Leave was never going to be in a position to implement anything.

Re: Brexit
 

I saw that too, she basically endorsed what Chris said to me earlier about what the average Scottish person thinks of the SNP.

Re: Brexit
 

Interesting article on when the Tory moderates may act to prevent a destructive no-deal
https://www.politico.eu/article/ther...oners-dilemma/

Re: Brexit
 

A plague on all their houses..;)

Re: Brexit
 

Fun discussion on the similarities between the Sottish and EU Referendums, thank you!

In other news, some key dates are coming up - decisions need to be made now on loading ships from Australia and New Zealand going to the UK. In a week or so time, ships from China and Japan will need to be loaded for delivery after the end of March. At the moment, exporters don't know what tariffs they will be paying when the ships arrive.

More locally, the company I work for has finalised arrangements to avoid the UK land bridge to Ireland. Heavy goods are going directly from mainland Europe to Ireland by ship, extending delivery time by 24-48 hours and for smaller goods, customers are paying extra for air freight now.

Re: Brexit
 

Aah, nothing quite like someone tearing the SNP a new one, especially in the heart of Yes bandit territory. :D

Re: Brexit
 

Ah, one of the frequent flyers on QT. The BBC seem to transport people to suit, rather than have genuine local audiences.AIUI he is a failed UKIP candidate.

Re: Brexit
 

A survey has shown that 1/3 of companies are considering moving abroad because of Brexit, which would obviously be devastating for our economy:

http://business-review.eu/internatio...y-finds-195797

Tim Harford disputes this and intends to show why at 16:30 today on Radio 4 in his weekly programme that aims to prove or disprove statistical claims called 'More or Less'.

I'm hoping to catch some of this whilst waiting to be taken for a doctors appointment as it sounds interesting.

Re: Brexit
 

He is genuine audience member. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Yes, of course he is :rolleyes:

https://apple.news/AOsqMp-OhSRKTVb91P7n8PA

Re: Brexit
 

I don’t care what that link says. I stand by he’s genuine.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Lol. I guess it saves the BBC making up extra name badges. :D

Re: Brexit
 

They were caught out in June iirc to, a failed Tory councillor was sticking up for pretti Patel, the plants name is Andrew livsley again iirc, shocking programme imo, not watched it for many years

Re: Brexit
 

I don't think there is any real suggestion he isn't genuine but it's clear he seems rather obsessed with getting on Question Time to rant. They need to screen the audience members better IMO. I don't buy that they're intentional plants either.

Re: Brexit
 

Let's face it, there's as lot of ranting nutters about these days. Look where listening to them has got us...

Gave up watching QT a long time ago, just a shouting match. Might aswell watch WWF wrestling, that's less staged and less violent !

Re: Brexit
 

:disturbd:

Re: Brexit
 

More bungling incompetence from HMG it seems..

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...paign=sharebar

Re: Brexit
 

Crikey, where have you been ?

It stopped being WWF a long time ago, as it the same abbreviations were getting mixed up with World Wide Fund for Nature, who successfully sued due to an agreement bring breached over the use of “WWF”, thus it then became WWE.

Re: Brexit
 

The local Glory hole ? :p::p:

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

The issue I have is that is seems there are many people who have applied who get turned down, seemingly in favour of Billy Mitchell. Who also seems to be so cosy with production, his questions have been aired at least 3 times.

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2019/02/8.jpg

Re: Brexit
 

Mmm, yes, I’m totally going to believe the interpretation placed on a contextless photograph by a Facebook page that went out of date in 2014.

Re: Brexit
 

Just been said on Radio 4 that nearly half of UK pensioners live in other EU countries, I never thought it would be that many.

Edit: Correction now made, it wasn't nearly half of pensioners, but nearly half a million pensioners.

I thought it was a lot!

Re: Brexit
 

Brits living abroad.

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many...-eu-countries/

Re: Brexit
 

Hardly incompetance.

Re: Brexit
 

As soon as the Referendum result was known the government should of started planning and seeing that referendum was 30 months ago and they have only just started planing for this a few months ago it is clear incompetence just like all the other things they have only just started planning for in the past few months.

Its been a complete omnishambles by HMG since the result was known and anybody who thinks otherwise needs to take their rose tinted glasses off.

Re: Brexit
 

Hardly what your previous post referred to.

Re: Brexit
 

The narrative is still the same though.

Re: Brexit
 

There does seem to be a 9 month period when what triggering A50 would mean should have been looked at in depth by HMG, which has been forgotten. Perhaps because there was the Tory leadership, then calling an ill thought out General Election. During which time the EU were preparing for A50 being triggered.

Meanwhile there seems to be a total head in the sand attitude to "no deal" and the dire consequences of this option.

Re: Brexit
 

Ah, you're a fan Mick ! Doesn't surprise me ;)

Re: Brexit
 

The narrative is not the same. Your post referred to a specific contract being withdrawn due to the companies backers (who own a fleet of ships) withdrawing their backing.

Continuing the contract would've been incompetant not cancelling it.

Re: Brexit
 

If HMG had done some proper thorough homework which they don't seem to have done in many cases they should have not given out the contract to them to start with.

The narrative is incompetence with this and most of the other things they have done since the vote.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m still not following you Den. What ‘homework’ should they have done - a field trip by Tardis to find out whether Arklow Shipping would at some point withdraw from their arrangement with Seaborne?

The problem with narratives is they stop you from seeing what’s actually happened. You’re tied to the narrative that HMG incompetently gave a contract to a company with no ships, which makes it impossible for you to see that in fact, HMG *did* do its homework, and knew that Seaborne was effectively acting as an intermediary or management operation, that planned to contract out the actual shipping to an experienced and trusted company called Arklow.

Because HMG *did* do its homework, it knew that when news broke that Arklow had severed its commercial relationship with Seaborne, then Seaborne would be unable to fulfil its government contract. That contract has therefore been terminated.

We did not previously know about Arklow because that was commercially sensitive information, which HMG quite correctly did not release even though it would have killed dead the narrative about them giving a shipping contract to a company with no ships.

You get the idea. Hopefully.

Re: Brexit
 

If Grayling was half confident, he would have contracted out to a shipping company. That would have enabled him to sue a company with assets if it breached its contract. What does he do now? The Express says he will resign.

Re: Brexit
 

The Arklow fleet

http://www.asl.ie/fleet/

Re: Brexit
 

I cannot see any ferries in this fleet? The contract, as reported, was to provide RORO ferries?

UK to spend £103m on no-deal ferries

So maybe the "narrative about them giving a shipping contract to a company with no ships" is still accurate?

Re: Brexit
 

The contract was with Seaborne Freight (UK) Ltd which has no ships. It looks like its contract with Arklow was not water tight.

Re: Brexit
 

There’s little point in bolding words that were written by a BBC journalist. As you’ve correctly surmised, whether or not the shipping contractors directly own the ships they would use is a point of interest. That being the case, you would need to discover whether the DfT or any of the contractors (not the BBC) ever claimed they already directly owned any Ro-Ro ferries. From there you would need to determine whether or not it’s a matter of concern whether an experienced shipping company owns a ship or leases one to fulfil a particular contract.

Or you could just ditch the pursuit of facts and cling to the narrative that the stupid Tories wanted to give money to people who couldn’t do the job they needed done in an emergency.

Re: Brexit
 

They are capable of carrying Wheat/grain, we import over 1,000,000 tons per year from the Eu [not the sort of thing you put on a ferry ] but essential to our food supply.

Re: Brexit
 

Maybe Hansward will suit your delicate tastes?

https://hansard.parliament.uk/common...eaborneFreight

So Seaborne Freight had no ferries and it seems the invisible backer may have none either? So yes, they did want to give money to people who couldn’t do the job they needed done in an emergency.

Just admit it, go on .. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry but you’re grasping- what’s the significance of the words “operating” beyond the fact that it confirms ships are to be leased rather than owned? You’re still resting on the narrative you’ve bought into rather than thinking the situation through.

Leasing rather than owning is absolutely standard behaviour. Bus companies do it, train companies do it, airlines do it, shipping lines do it.

Your quote from Hansard is only really useful at demonstrating the limitations of using non-specialist journalists for reporting complex issues. Clearly I t’s the BBC’s misunderstanding that led to it reporting that these companies would be operating “their” fleets.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't trust JC to deal cards.

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:28 ----------


The other week on radio 5 live, they were talking to Scottish kids about independence, and who they would ban from Scotland one girl said she would ban Jimmy Krankie, the puzzle interview said "Jimmy Krankie", before the penny dropped.:D

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Just need to hold the course.

May’s deal isn’t a bad one, just need to agree something on the backstop.

If the backstop is the altar on which all sides would sacrifice Brexit, £41 billion, our whole future relationship - then they would be idiots. Politicians for all their woes ( barring a few notable exceptions) are not idiots.

It is 1no. Issue. Forget all the current theatrics, there will more. But as that date gets closer and closer something will agreed.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

You have to admire their persistence I suppose.

Re: Brexit
 

Yep, and it's a cunning plan* too . . a vote on whether to accept the deal May has put forward, or remain in the EU

both options effectively mean we don't leave :rolleyes:



* Baldrick would be so proud :D

Re: Brexit
 

Both of which betray the referendum result. Such is the extent of the Westminster treachery. :(

Re: Brexit
 

Well to be fair at the moment it’s just proposed treachery. :D

I think it’s highly unlikely that it will pass. There are too many MPs - especially Labour ones in Northern England - who don’t fancy facing their constituents if they are perceived as having betrayed Brexit.

There just isn’t a parliamentary majority for a new referendum. If they thought there might be, then they’d have put their amendment forward last week, but they didn’t.

Re: Brexit
 

"treachery", "betray"?

Very emotive...

When the Tories won the 1992 Election with the largest number of votes ever in a General Election, having just signed the Maastricht Treaty, were the Eurosceptics being treacherous and betraying the voters who had just elected the Tory Government?

Re: Brexit
 

I just wish we could have a decision/resolution of some sort.Don't care what. Just DECIDE.

Re: Brexit
 

Because we were electing a government based on a range of policies and the EU surrender document was not fully understood by the electorate. This time it was a single issue that the people were asked to vote on and not enacting that is an act of treachery by the Westminster elite.

Re: Brexit
 

If you think something is going to be a disaster for your country wouldn't you be a traitor to blithely go along with it :shrug:

Re: Brexit
 

Just because you think something will be a disaster does not make it so.

Re: Brexit
 

Does seem odd that people are happy to support a result, when even the source of the £8 million donation by Aaron Banks is still unknown. A referendum that legally had to be advisory rather than binding in order to get the ballot past the judiciary.

Re: Brexit
 

Do any of the contractors have ships just idly sitting around? I doubt it. Therefore none of any contractors will have available ships.

Re: Brexit
 

It all depends on your viewpoint/definition of a 'disaster'.

To some people, a disaster is having to pay 30p more for a bottle of wine, needing a visa to travel abroad, or seeing a shortage of broccoli at Christmas.

To others, disaster is seeing your town decimated by the local industries/factories closing and re-opening in a country where the labour and costs are much cheaper.

I think previous Governments have a lot to answer for, and many 'leave' voters were probably of a mind where being in the EU was already a 'life changing' disaster for them and their families/community

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or wishing to start more silly arguements involving statistics, JLR, Dyson et al. Just saying that for some people a fresh start probably gives them better hope for the future than continuing in a downward spiral.

---------- Post added at 10:45 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------


*apparently* when we bomb out of the EU we won't have any trade deals, so there should be a surplus of available ships :D

Re: Brexit
 

People were unhappy with the EU long before any hint of a referendum. That was the reason for the referendum.


In a court, only a jury can give a not guilty verdict, but in some instances the Judge can direct the jury to give a not guilty verdict. It should be seen as a similar situation where only Parliament is allowed to make the final decision, but in the event of a referendum it's hands are tied. Has there ever been the slightest hint that the result of a previously held referendum wouldn't be respected?

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

So even contractors currently without any ships would be able to obtain one? What is the difference?

Re: Brexit
 

I have a boat,i can do the booze and cig's runs ,if the Nation needs me :devsmoke:

Re: Brexit
 

The difference is if it fits your narrative/agenda or not.