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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

nomadking 02-06-2021 12:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Regardless of how the EU actually acted as far as vaccines are concerned, a question remains if the UK had still been in the EU, as to whether the EU would've taken full and complete control instead.

Was it just just coincidence in the past, when the EEC(now EU) took control of fishing waters, just before new countries were looking to join(eg UK, Ireland, Norway) that has large fishing waters.
UK had an exemption to the Social Chapter, what happened is that the EU forced it upon us anyway via a backdoor method.
The EU is just a big bully.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 12:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081651)
The idea that the UK would have taken the political hit of abandoning the other EU member states by not joining the vaccine programme, had it been an EU member riding on the back of a recent vote to remain in the bloc, is absolutely absurd.
That's something I doubt we'll agree on I'm afraid. This was not another business as usual scenario.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081652)
UK had an exemption to the Social Chapter, what happened is that the EU forced it upon us anyway via a backdoor method.
Can you expand on this backdoor method?

Meanwhile, moving forwards, this is interesting.
Quote:
Liz Truss Excellent news that #CPTPP nations have agreed UK accession process will commence to join this dynamic free trade area of 11 countries.
We'll present our plans to Parliament in the coming weeks before starting negotiations .
https://twitter.com/trussliz/status/1399986254419275776

Chris 02-06-2021 12:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I believe significant sections of the social chapter were subsequently incorporated into workplace health and safety directives. Someone with more time can probably find a link or two.

TheDaddy 02-06-2021 12:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081632)
And what exactly is meant to be the more lucrative alternative? Didn't realise we've reached the mythical zero-unemployment stage.
You do realise all these vacancies were filled 18 months ago don't you but instead of furloughing staff they decided to sack them rather than pay the Ni, I wouldn't go back either in those circumstances

nomadking 02-06-2021 12:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36081656)
You do realise all these vacancies were filled 18 months ago don't you but instead of furloughing staff they decided to sack them rather than pay the Ni, I wouldn't go back either in those circumstances
If they had been kept on for no good reason, then the businesses would've gone bust, and there would be no jobs available now.

Still leaves the unanswered question of, what is so good in their current situation, that it is better than going for a job?

Pierre 02-06-2021 12:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081648)
I'm not going to assess anyone's understanding of the EU but will just share the facts:

From Full Fact:


https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/


From the Institute of Government:


https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit
Indeed several EU countries did initially try and successfully procured vaccines, but this was then taken from them by the EU
Quote:
By the spring, it looked like vaccine procurement would also be a free-for-all; France, Germany, the Netherlands, and Italy formed the “Inclusive Vaccine Alliance” and secured up to 400 million doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca shot, to be distributed across the EU on a population basis. Politico reports that France and Spain were negotiating separately with Moderna.

The European Commission decided in June to step in and buy vaccines on behalf of all member states, absorbing the Inclusive Vaccine Alliance and its contract. While big countries would always be able to buy vaccines on their own, the Commission argued it made sense to negotiate together to obtain better prices and help smaller countries get vaccines too.
https://qz.com/1968175/why-the-eu-ha...d-on-vaccines/

That worked out well for them.

TheDaddy 02-06-2021 12:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081658)
If they had been kept on for no good reason, then the businesses would've gone bust, and there would be no jobs available now.

Still leaves the unanswered question of, what is so good in their current situation, that it is better than going for a job?
I doubt they're on the dole, they're delivering multi drop or food most likely and probably finding it a lot more agreeable

BenMcr 02-06-2021 13:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081652)
Was it just just coincidence in the past, when the EEC(now EU) took control of fishing waters, just before new countries were looking to join(eg UK, Ireland, Norway) that has large fishing waters.
No, and the rules were clear before any of those countries joined and agreed to the rules.

Norway didn't join because of that. The UK did.
Quote:
UK had an exemption to the Social Chapter, what happened is that the EU forced it upon us anyway via a backdoor method.
The EU is just a big bully.
That's not true, it was a UK decision:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/p.../chapter.shtml
Quote:
On May 5, Foreign Secretary Robin Cook opened a "new chapter in Britain's relations with Europe". He declared: "At today's meeting Britain will take the first step towards signing up to the Social Chapter. We will tell our European partners that we want the rights and benefits of the Social Chapter to extend to the people of Britain."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...06/eu.politics
Quote:
Most specifically, Mr Cameron promised a return to John Major's pledge to pull Britain out of the social chapter on workers' rights across the EU, which guarantees such things as protection for pregnant women and part-time workers.

The Tory leader said: "That's why I do not believe it is appropriate for social and employment legislation to be dealt with at the European level.

"It will be a top priority for the next Conservative government to restore social and employment legislation to national control."

John Major first negotiated a UK-opt out from the social chapter of the Maastricht treaty in 1992. But Labour moved quickly to incorporate it into UK law after coming to power in 1997.

Hugh 02-06-2021 14:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36081658)
If they had been kept on for no good reason, then the businesses would've gone bust, and there would be no jobs available now.

Still leaves the unanswered question of, what is so good in their current situation, that it is better than going for a job?
Do you mean like all those other businesses that furloughed staff, and are still in business?

About your second question - my son used to work in hospitality, and a lot of his friends moved on to other jobs (in shops, offices, delivery drivers for supermarkets, etc.), and found they liked not being on zero hours contracts, working 9-5, knowing what your working hours were more than a week in advance, and have decided to stay out of hospitality.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 14:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36081668)
Do you mean like all those other businesses that furloughed staff, and are still in business?

About your second question - my son used to work in hospitality, and a lot of his friends moved on to other jobs (in shops, offices, delivery drivers for supermarkets, etc.), and found they liked not being on zero hours contracts, working 9-5, knowing what your working hours were more than a week in advance, and have decided to stay out of hospitality.
Ironically, it was Tim Martin who suggested such workers get a job at Tesco whilst hospitality was closed. I don't disagree with his logic, though some have indeed found the grass is greener in retail and distribution compared to hospitality.

In terms of foreign hospitality workers, I think many EU nationals gave up their rented accommodation and returned to their home countries in the same way that Brits working in cities returned to their home towns. Some of these people have returned to UK hospitality but many have not and the sector is under-staffed at the moment.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 15:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081655)
I believe significant sections of the social chapter were subsequently incorporated into workplace health and safety directives. Someone with more time can probably find a link or two.
Andrew will know that the first attempt at implementing th WTD was by unanimous vote. When the UK vetoed it, the they brought it in by qualified majority voting. If we hadn’t been able to secure the opt out, we’d have beenlong gone from the EU.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 16:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081680)
Andrew will know that the first attempt at implementing th WTD was by unanimous vote. When the UK vetoed it, the they brought it in by qualified majority voting. If we hadn’t been able to secure the opt out, we’d have beenlong gone from the EU.
Opt-outs are the British way and the correct way to work with Johnnie European. ;) We need to have a foot in the EU but not both feet.* :D
* Both feet being defined as Euro, Schengen and Vaccines programme

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

I'm not sure Prtti Patel will be on Tim Martin's Christmas Card list! I suspect he may be having a few Bregrets. ;)
Quote:
Home Secretary Priti Patel is considering scrapping a concession on UK visa fees for citizens of 26 European countries.

Under the terms of the 1961 European Social Charter, an automatic £55 reduction is offered to those seeking UK work visas from signatory nations.

This includes 22 of the EU's 27 member states, as well as Iceland, North Macedonia, Norway and Turkey...

The Home Office wants to 'level the playing field' for all UK visa applicants
A Whitehall source told Sky News the concession was being reviewed as part of a drive to make the UK's post-Brexit immigration scheme "as fair as possible for everyone" and to "level the playing field" for applicants from all across the world.
https://news.sky.com/story/home-secr...tries-12323141

Chris 02-06-2021 17:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081681)
Opt-outs are the British way and the correct way to work with Johnnie European. ;) We need to have a foot in the EU but not both feet.* :D
* Both feet being defined as Euro, Schengen and Vaccines programme

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:30 ----------

I'm not sure Prtti Patel will be on Tim Martin's Christmas Card list! I suspect he may be having a few Bregrets. ;)

https://news.sky.com/story/home-secr...tries-12323141
Given how hard you rake through the news looking for Brexit stories, it seems beyond credulity that you didn’t already see this today:

Quote:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57314682

The boss of Wetherspoons has denied claims his pubs are facing a staff shortage caused by Brexit.
It comes after Tim Martin was quoted by the Daily Telegraph as saying he favoured a more "liberal" visa scheme for EU workers to tackle shortfalls.
Mr Martin, a vocal Brexit supporter, told the BBC he had always favoured an Australian style system which treated near neighbours preferentially.
There was "no recruitment issue" other than in small coastal towns, he added.

Hom3r 02-06-2021 18:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081636)
No one's denying that the vaccine roll-out in the UK has been better than most of Europe. But to attribute that to Brexit is erroneous, although I accept that many people do link the two.

Our vaccine rollout is better than the EU's for one reason, they have to all fight for it and then decide who gets it first.

Carth 02-06-2021 19:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36081693)
Our vaccine rollout is better than the EU's for one reason, they have to all fight for it and then decide who gets it first.
. . . while also facing the dilemma of how much to send to other countries, like they 'demanded' we should do ;)


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