Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013197)

In answer to your final question, probably, yes.

Literally the island of Ireland voted for independence and we partitioned it.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36013199)

No-one's trying to 'trash the country' apart from the Corbynistas. A Brexit without a withdrawal agreement is not the disaster you and other remainers are trying to convince people it will be.

The majority want to leave the EU, and this is a majority decision. If the EU won't co-operate, we leave without a deal. It's time all remainers accepted that. Enough of the nonsense, let's just get on with it. After it happens, people will start to wonder what all the fuss was about.

The planes will not fall from the sky. You will still be able to holiday in Europe. The food and medicines will be available as usual. Etc.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013200)

So what ongoing impositions, like the backstop, were placed on Ireland? Which laws were ignored without being legally and fairly changed?

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013201)

Literally the island of Ireland voted for independence and we partitioned it.

The literal existence of Northern Ireland.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36013211)

You need to go back to school.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013201)

You can't actually evidence that any of your prediction is true. Stick to predicting the imminent death of linear television, it's got marginally more credibility. Marginally.

Nobody has said we won't be able to holiday, only that it'll be more expensive to do so. This is true already. Nor has anyone predicted planes falling from the sky. You are conflating genuine risk with the ridiculous to try and minimise its importance.

The literal existence of Northern Ireland.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013213)

I don't. Ireland voted for independence. Got partitioned by Britain. I'd invite you to point out what part isn't true but don't want to sidetrack the discussion further.

Ironic that is why we are now in this mess, trying to protect our crumbled Empire.

Originally Posted by ntluser (Post 36013214)

Currently as EU members we are subject to the EU four freedoms and operating on a legal & trading framework acceptable to the EU and the UK..

When we leave we hope to shed the Freedom Of Movement requirement and the legal and trading frameworks may well be different and these are the barriers to our deal with the EU.

The problems with immigration were mainly due to the government failing to deal with the consequences of immigration like shortages of doctors, dentists, teachers, appropriate school places, jobs and affordable housing, all things that the government could address.

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

He will also need to equalise the legal & trading conditions on both sides of the Irish border so that, rights, responsibilities, procedures, protocols etc are the same, with the exception that issues raised in Ireland will be dealt with by the EU courts and issues in Ulster will be dealt with by the UK courts. When the same issue is raised in both areas, an Arbitration panel consisting say of 2 EU judges & 2 UK judges would look at the issue and try to find a mutually acceptable & legal solution. In effect, trading will just be as if we were still in the EU but the EU jurisdiction will only apply in Ireland as the UK jurisdiction will be in Ulster.

Given the bullying, bull-in-a china-shop tactics used by Boris, he has not only upset our EU friends but he has also failed to renegotiate our exit, apparently aiming to leave the EU at all costs without really trying to make a deal. He may well find leaving the EU like that to be satisfactory but there are plenty of poor people & businesses who will not. The massive borrowing required will not only put us further in debt but will also bring further years of austerity which can be avoided,

My bet is that neither he or Stephen Barclay have even asked the EU if such changes would make a difference and until he does he cannot really say that no deal is the only option.

I will also bet than no journalists have questioned Boris , Michel Barnier or Donald Tusk about discussing such changes in the Brexit negotiations.

Given the repeated requests from the EU for written proposals, it is the UK government which is at fault for belatedly supplying the ill thought-out proposals recently submitted.

No-one in government seems to be asking what the EU concerns are and as we do not know what they are how can the government address them.

The whole process has been a shambles from start to finish. Lots of ordinary people will suffer if we crash out of the EU like this.

I can only hope that all politicians involved will use some common sense and bring this deal to a successful conclusion.

Originally Posted by ntluser (Post 36013214)

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36013218)

A pretty much spot on analysis.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36013221)

A lot of disaster capitalists will be rich though!

Originally Posted by ntluser (Post 36013214)

Currently as EU members we are subject to the EU four freedoms and operating on a legal & trading framework acceptable to the EU and the UK..

When we leave we hope to shed the Freedom Of Movement requirement and the legal and trading frameworks may well be different and these are the barriers to our deal with the EU.

The problems with immigration were mainly due to the government failing to deal with the consequences of immigration like shortages of doctors, dentists, teachers, appropriate school places, jobs and affordable housing, all things that the government could address.

To satisfy the EU, Boris will need to remove the Freedom Of Movement red line thus allowing the people of Ireland & Ulster to move freely between both areas.

He will also need to equalise the legal & trading conditions on both sides of the Irish border so that, rights, responsibilities, procedures, protocols etc are the same, with the exception that issues raised in Ireland will be dealt with by the EU courts and issues in Ulster will be dealt with by the UK courts. When the same issue is raised in both areas, an Arbitration panel consisting say of 2 EU judges & 2 UK judges would look at the issue and try to find a mutually acceptable & legal solution. In effect, trading will just be as if we were still in the EU but the EU jurisdiction will only apply in Ireland as the UK jurisdiction will be in Ulster.

Given the bullying, bull-in-a china-shop tactics used by Boris, he has not only upset our EU friends but he has also failed to renegotiate our exit, apparently aiming to leave the EU at all costs without really trying to make a deal. He may well find leaving the EU like that to be satisfactory but there are plenty of poor people & businesses who will not. The massive borrowing required will not only put us further in debt but will also bring further years of austerity which can be avoided,

My bet is that neither he or Stephen Barclay have even asked the EU if such changes would make a difference and until he does he cannot really say that no deal is the only option.

I will also bet than no journalists have questioned Boris , Michel Barnier or Donald Tusk about discussing such changes in the Brexit negotiations.

Given the repeated requests from the EU for written proposals, it is the UK government which is at fault for belatedly supplying the ill thought-out proposals recently submitted.

No-one in government seems to be asking what the EU concerns are and as we do not know what they are how can the government address them.

The whole process has been a shambles from start to finish. Lots of ordinary people will suffer if we crash out of the EU like this.

I can only hope that all politicians involved will use some common sense and bring this deal to a successful conclusion.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36013220)

This isn't the issue as we already have that pre-EU. It's physical goods that are the issue.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36013224)

Load of nonsense. Technically the exit is a done deal. Either way it's meant to happen. There is the "deal" which the WA, which is "transitional, and unambiguously limited in time", and then there is the "deal", which is in the future after the WA and is not allowed to be even negotiated yet until after we've left the EU. Will people stop mixing the 2 up.:mad: With the WA "deal" we "crash" out anyway, just at the end of next year instead.



The UK Parliament won't say what they would agree to, and the EU won't budge. Anything allegedly of concern to the EU comes after the end of the transitional phase of the WA, which the WA is not allowed to deal with.


Now with the Benn act, the UK Parliament and Ireland are never in a million years going to agree to anything. They'll keep moving the goalposts. They've been given a loaded gun and have itchy trigger fingers.

Originally Posted by ntluser (Post 36013226)

It will be interesting to hear how goods are currently being moved from Ireland to Ulster.

I'm guessing that as the legal & trading frameworks on either side of the Irish border are the same because we are currently both EU members there are no checkpoints or few checkpoints.

We need to recreate the same equal legal & trading frameworks but with Ireland answerable to EU courts & Ulster answerable to UK courts.

If everything else is equal both courts should arrive at the same verdict/conclusion with any issue raised.

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------



So are you saying because of the WA, Boris is intending to leave the EU only to re-apply to the EU for a trade deal after we have left, or is he just intending to leave and not bother with a deal.

Not sure how well that will go down especially if Boris withholds the leaving money.