Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to let you guys know that the hand of the BT Beta forum moderators is coming down again hard - just had an official warning for some fairly innocuous posts put on other BT Beta broadband forums to alert other users to the Webwise issue.

So I will have to be good. I've used up my nine lives so will have to abide by the rules in future. Don't want to get banned. Nevertheless the thread over there has revived recently. Don't ignore it - BT is where the action is and the 10,000 customers who are going to be trialled are there somewhere. We need to pick up at least one or two for experimentation purposes!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I expect many people in this thread keep up to date with what's going on over there. I know I do.

You are all doing a great job, especially given the heavy censorship from the mods. Just having a large thread near the top of the front page is going to draw many viewers from other threads. I'm sure the message is getting out to them. I'm also sure you messed up the odd weekend just gone for a few people in BT. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello all,

pleased to announce (yet) another prerelease version of Dephormation is available to download.

I've added a feature to log the cookies set for a page (so you can do before/after comparisons, and capture the technical details of Phorms phraudulent cookie phorgery).

At Rob's request I've also added alerts for BT Webwise sites (currently off by default).

I've tested this version on Windows XP/FF2+3, and Linux/FF1.5.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/prere...phormation.xpi
(nb; right click, save as, and drag into Firefox to install).

Please revert back to the current public v1.6 if you encounter problems (and let me know what went wrong!).

Its not quite subtle enough [yet] to trigger on cookie setting events, I hope to add that soon (but the Mozilla developer documentation is very poor sadly).

regards
Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps Richard Clayton would be intersted in that EU Comm reply too.
Oh and what about sending a copy to the Gadget Show?

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Trying to draw a reaction over on Digital Spy is like trying to draw blood from a stone!

Still, one can do nothing but try to inform them. Perhaps my choice of thread title wasn't subtle enough?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, I sat behind Kent at the FIPR tenth anniversary seminar today. He was only there for the first session on "Surveillance, privacy and technology" even though I would have thought that the third session "The next ten years" would have interested him most. (or perhaps not ...)

At the end of this first session, Richard Clayton used the issue of behavioural advertising to illustrate the role FIPR had to play. He also delivered a withering attack on the ISPs and companies involved in it. He pointed out that under RIPA both parties had to give their consent for interceptions, that identifiers could not by definition be private since they had to be used to deliver the advertising, and that there was a significant danger of misuse of the personal information collected.

Interestingly he quoted examples of soundbyte phrases which had taken hold in other situations and which had been effective in stalling unwelcome innovations: "Frankenstein foods" for GM, and "Spy chips" for consumer RFID. Anyone on the Forum got good ideas for an equivalent soundbyte phrase for Phorm?

As for Kent, he didn't applaud Richard and left with the two young associates who were with him just after 3pm. Perhaps he had already arranged another appointment, or he didn't like what Richard said, or maybe it was that his Blackberry had told him what was happening to Phorm's stock (down from 14.00 to 12.50 in the previous ten minutes).

I also had an interesting discussion with the Earl of Northesk at the reception afterwards on Phorm and on the impact of the Internet on the political process. Here are two good quotes from his talk in the meeting itself:
"The Net should belong to society at large"
"The Internet is not just a resource, but a whole life experience"
We should be pleased to have someone with his vision and integrity on our side.

I'll put together a report of the meeting and make it available here when I get a moment later in the week.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for going. Hope you had a shower when you got home. I'm looking forward to the report.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@ Portly_Giraffe

How about "Internet Tapping", although I think "Data Pimping" is the accepted form, but perhaps not in polite circles?

As Kent holds nearly 2 million shares, he lost nearly £3 million in that 10 minutes! He should pick his investments more wisely.

Come on, admit it, were you never tempted to flick chewed up bits of paper at the back of his neck?:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having missed both her TV appearances stammering her way through the legal advice / due dilligence speech I wondered what she actually looked like so I searched Google Images for "bt emma sanderson":

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Ist image up "The Wipe-O-Matic 3000" from a recent cableforum post?

We beat BT's Official PR image?

What an accolade!

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great idea. I'll start the ball rolling:

ISD = Inline SpyISP Device
or
SpyISP Device

Next ....?

edit ...
mark777 beat me to it :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In fact about a month ago MacUser published my letter to them on Phorm using the title I'd supplied of "Pimp my Data", but I agree it probably needs to be something politer, and maybe not so IT biased.

I was indeed in the row immediately behind Kent, about four feet to his left. And yes I was tempted. Though if you met me you'd find me far too respectable looking to believe that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

having re-scanned the interim PIA undertaken by 80/20, written by Simon Davies, I think perhaps a copy of the EU Comm's reply would help to correct the obvious errors in the following snippet from said interim PIA:

The general principles of personal data are defined in Directive 95/46/EC

For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) 'personal data 'shall mean any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person ('data subject'); an identifiable person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identification number or to one or more factors specific to his physical, physiological, mental, economic, cultural or social identity;

I would suggest that for the purposes of Directive 95/46/EC , Phorm's UID is an identification number.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

time once again to reitorate some of the facts the new members may have lost in this thread.....

heres an overview reminder of the Data Protection Act.
-----------------------------------------------
remember people, we have this: tell your friends, use it.
“UK consumers wake up to privacy”
link: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pressreleases/2008/information_rights_press_ release_final1.pdf
For a copy of the ‘Data Protection Guide for Dummies’ please go to http://www.ico.gov.uk
Our data protection rights
• An organisation should tell you what it is going to do with your information before you provide any details unless this is obvious

• Your information should only be used for the reason it was collected in the first place (unless you give your consent to your information being used in other ways)

• An organisation should not collect any information which is unnecessary. You only need to provide the basic information which is required to deliver the service required

• Your information should be kept accurate and up to date – if you ask any organisation to make changes to your details, it should do this

• An organisation should not keep your details if they are no longer needed

• An organisation must provide you with copies of all information held on you - if you ask. You can also ask an organisation to stop using your personal information if it is causing you damage or distress or if you wish to stop it being used for marketing purposes.

• An organisation must keep your personal information secure at all times

• An organisation should not transfer your personal details to another country unless adequate data protection arrangements are in place.
and then it goes on to say….

David Smith said: “For any of us to have trust in an organisation we must be confident that our information is held securely and processed in line with data protection rules.

If we all regularly start to ask the right questions then organisations will respond to public demand and take the protection of our personal information more seriously.

If organisations fail to recognise the importance of data protection they not only risk losing business. They could also face action from the Information Commissioners Office.”
--------------------------------------
theres also the copyright act POV, after all you own your personal (clickstream)data, its your property, to profit from or not as you please, its not your ISPs right to pirate your property is it.

BTW,of all the current Phorm threads on the net this seems to try to collect information,storys and comment, to inform the readers, its by far the longest thread though, so you have your work cut out catching up now.

Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] - Cable Forum

---------
care of the US NY times and LadyMinion at
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33628733-virgin-media-phorm-webwise-adverts-updated-page-102.html#post34510801 for first spoting it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/business/media/20adcoside.html?ref=busin ess
Quote:
” As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions ,” said Virasb Vahidi, the chief operating officer of Phorm. ” We actually can see the entire Internet .”

The company, called Phorm, has created a tool that can track every single online action of a given consumer, based on data from that person’s Internet service provider.”



-------

1. If you are a customer of BT Retail (or of any other BT divisions e.g. BT Business) , Virgin Media or Carphone Warehouse Talk Talk, or any other company that thinks to profile your data for advertising , then you might like to write to them quoting the very clear The Data Protection Act 1998 section 11:

1. 11 Right to prevent processing for purposes of direct marketing
2. (1) An individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect of which he is the data subject.
3. (2) If the court is satisfied, on the application of any person who has given a notice under subsection (1), that the data controller has failed to comply with the notice, the court may order him to take such steps for complying with the notice as the court thinks fit.
4. (3) In this section "direct marketing" means the communication (by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is directed to particular individuals.

-------
on a related note , i found this ElReg News report interesting, and in support of the 'commercial Piracy for profit' i keep saying the worlds DPI interception partys are actively moving forward with.

"whats your's is mine, whats mine is my own" mentality of the ISP related companys today....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...and_copyright/
"
Failing Web 2.0 stars pray for copyright abolition

Wanted: starving artists to help out web tycoons

Page: 1 2 Next >
By Andrew Orlowski → More by this author
Published Tuesday 27th May 2008 18:32 GMT

Remember the date - the one about an inch above the words you're reading now. 27 May 2008.

Two articles were published today of some note, and if you can put them in context, you can begin see the true, scary picture of internet economics today. The one that's usually too scary for the posh papers or broadcast media to describe....
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How ironic. If I read that correctly the Phorm UID is condsidered as PII?:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dugg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its more personal even than your IP address.

UID is an abbreviation for User Identifier (in Phorm's own terms).

Its obviously a personal identifier. Why the ICO can't see this I don't know. Its either because they are very stupid, or simply can't understand what Phorm are doing.

I sympathise. I too have perception problems. I can't see the difference between ICO and a chocolate fireguard, an ashtray on a motorbike, and a one legged man at an arse kicking contest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about Privacy Leech?

Or Parasiteware?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd suggest we need to identify the key facts that the phrase needs to convey:

I think ISP needs to be in there somewhere - to make it clear that it is individual ISP's doing it and suggest that switching gets away from the problem.

"Data" - I don't think that helps as it's a bit too nebulous - it's the fact that every page visited is being tracked is the issue rather than what data is collected as a result of the tracking

I wonder if linking in to a phrase people already recognise would work - something like "Big Brother ISPs"? That could link on to other headlines such as "Big Brother ISP's are watching YOU".

We've got to grab peoples attention and make them worried.

Edit: We've also got to steer clear of anything that means zilch to people without some IT knowledge - this needs to be aimed at he Sun reader.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ISPy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Clever! :)

Edit: Does ISPies work better or worse?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that link Popper. Copyright is something I've been following with interest.

The power to enforce copyright is not in the hands of a corrupt government/lazy police/idiotic regulators... its in the hands of the people who own the content.

The unfortunate thing for ISPs, they can't pull the wool over the eyes of the people who's creative work is being stolen to make this scam work.

Pete.

---------- Post added at 08:59 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

I think we need to avoid getting too clever here.

Parasitic spyware is something Joe Bloggs understands. If you get too creative, he'll get confused.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, but you need "eye catchers" in any campaign..for example ISPy as the header, followed by the explanation.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I may be underestimating the British population, but I do wonder if parasitic would be understood by all.

xxxware is very much a term used by people who know something about IT. I think also that people who have some knowledge would assume that it is something that gets installed on their PC and that with anti-spyware software they can avoid it. The key thing is that it is the ISPs doing it. ISP Spyware would be better.

If this gets implemented we've got to get users leaving the ISPs in droves.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

contract to ISPyware?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"ISPy with my little Webwise"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd keep clear of Phorm or Webwise in the main tag - they are not the only players and our campaign needs to be against them all. If Phorm crashes someone else will learn from it and step in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

T shirt, anyone?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whatever Slogan is decided upon I think that the ending is just as Important!

Something like "....... which cannot be blocked by AV or Ad Blockers!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

share price..

1,200.000 [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] -12.50 -1.03%

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, that's a very important message to get across. I bet a lot of people are not bothered because they think the protection on their PC (firewall, AV, spyware blocker) will keep them safe. That's why I'd avoid any connotation with "spyware" - this is a far more insidious beast altogether.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something I've put together

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am away till Sunday bet it all goes pearshaped while am away or I will have a 100 pages to catch up no..

We are winning the campaign so far lets not be diverted from the main task phorm phree surfing...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could you not have a nice, simple anti-webwise avatar and a signature saying something along the lines of "Find out more at " (link to inphormationdesk)?

The avatar could even be something like a big "?"

Then just go and join every thread and talk about whatever the subject is. Don't mention Phorm or webwise.

EDIT : Looking through other threads there, few people seem to have avatars, so a 'catchy' one will stand out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I`ve notice some of the stuff everyone found out about BT`s trail and Phorm the bits left over from it they now vanishing, is it down to what been found and they forgot about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I like the image but the text is missing the ISP element - the message conveyed is that you're being watched and there's sod all you can do about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Jelv, I can alter the text to anything that folks think might be beneficial, if anyone else wants to tinker with it feel free :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Uuuum, we had this discussion eons ago which was when my strapline came in "ISPy with my little eye" (above my avatar). We also came up with "ISPy on U". Sorry, don't mean to sound all prissy, but we talk so much, we forget so much :D. lol

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Idea, but don't pick the highest profile thread pick one that's fairly active but slightly under the radar!

It may then last considerably longer before being pulled!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why would they be pulled if the posts are purely on topic? They wouldn't be discussing phorm/webwise and only have avatars/signatures containing links to things that interest them.

EDIT : Thinking about it a bit more. If it was me, I would have an avatar that had a message along the lines of "Shocking news for BT customers" and a signature "Visit my homepage to find out more" which linked to inphormationdesk or perhaps an information page tailored for BT users.

It would probably have a bigger impact if all the anti-phormites over there temporarily used the same avatar and signature. In a couple of hours between you all, you could swamp the whole forum. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the term 'wiretap' is well understood so maybe something like 'web wiretap' ....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

better still ISP Wire Tapping, oh wait you may end up with advert for a plumber:dozey:

---------- Post added at 12:03 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

They actually pulled one thread or locked it forget which, there was nothing in the posts at all about webwise or phorm but someone did miss spell information they used a PH, they all eyes over there and wont let anything pass that does not comphrom to their world of inphormation.:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is the "hit 'em low, hard, quick, and hook 'em approach..it can be printed and bunged on the works notice board, and it's clear and straightforward, not too much info at once.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As at 28-May-2008 12:57:00
1,165.000

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...%20B1WTNC4PHRM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

for them to be sold someone must be buying them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it the "Shorters" that do that?:dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

QUESTION:

Assume we had in place, God forbid, the current incarnation of the Phorm/Webwise inline system snooping and spying on our raw data. With all the Phorm redirects going on to perform their apparent illegalities in an attempt to hoodwink the system to make it work, could it affect the performance on heavy duty Ajax type calls within the data stream?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Avatars require moderator approval on Beta forums. Sigh...
"Note: You will not be able to select a custom avatar until it has been approved by a moderator."
It really is not a free country over there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are any BT forum users getting emails for watched topics?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is what I have been wondering. Most of the sites I have developed over the last few years use that technique.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT developed the line "Its good to talk " soon after privatisation. I think that this is about to become "Its good to spy"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Haha! Now I kind of feel guilty to keep picking on chubby little Emma (someone's got to do it!). Btw in order for people to see that Google search result for Emma Sanderson they need to set the "Do not filter my search results." under the preferences.

More fun with Emma here "Phorm on The Gadget Show"
http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?6107

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Delbuoy

I like that idea :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also received a response from my MEP with answers from the EC to questions he posed. The answer is similar to Tharricks and Ravenhearts, but slightly extended.

It's viewable here:

http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f....php?4633.last

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's good to squawk-about your customer's lives!:p:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"It's good to stalk" ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That tactic does work. If there is no mention of the 2 key words and if you use the link facility to put the relevant hyper links onto innocent phrases like "here" or "information", and if you use an innocent title, then posts can survive and get read.

But the avatar idea is a non-runner I'm afraid unless it was quite innocuous. Signatures are not a problem.
Name changes are also not a problem although I'm not trying that myself at the moment - I'm tempted to change my posting ID to Phorm or Webwise.

There is also no private messaging facility on BT Beta which makes communicating beneath the radar difficult.

BT simply do not want their customers to know about this. The average BT customer is not going to hear about Phorm/Webwise because BT are determined to keep it from them. There needs to be exposure on the red top press, and the peak hour consumer programs - with respect - the geek oriented stuff like Gadget and Click isn't enough.

BT is a mass-market ISP, and until they see something about Phorm/Webwise on the mainstream their 3 million customers will not care mainly because they don't know, and even if they do know, they won't understand.

I'm normally against things like viral marketing email campaigns (I don't mean real virus you understand) but I'm tempted in this situation. We've all got address books with contacts' btinternet, talktalk and VM addresses in them - could we do some viral email anti-phorm marketing? (doing it responsibly using Bcc field to safeguard privacy of data).

The email would need to have a short snappy title - a short explanatory teaser paragraph, a series of key page links like inphormation.org (I suggest it DOESN'T send people to forums - forums scare your average user! I know how hard it is to promote forum use to "ordinary" people!) - and a short list (like Kursks list but shorter and made simpler) of things that people can do really easily with minimum effort, all involving a short email to send to someon and an encouragement for them to send a similar mail to anyone they have in their address book with a BT/VM/TalkTalk address (using Bcc for round robins)

BT Retail email addresses are either ATbtinternet.com or ATbtopenworld.com

What are the ones for TalkTalk and VM?

Remember - here you can say and do what you like subject to a few "not being rude" rules. The mission over at BT is more to try and "catch" uninphormed customers and get their attention. And that ain't easy!

If all the BT customers using C/F (but with access to BT Beta forums) would like to PM me, I'd be interested in discussing strategy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What would be good is if someone could do a video parody of the Anti Piracy ad you get on DVDs and throw it on YouTube, it would go viral.

"Your anti virus can't stop it."
"Your anti spyware can't stop it."
"Your anti adware can't stop it."
"Your firewall can't stop it."
"Virgin, BT and Talk Talk are planning to copy every web page you visit for the purpose of building a profile of your habits; they call this Webwise and it is illegal."
"Join the campaign now on (insert website here)"

"Webwise...it's a crime!"

Then instead of credits, have quotes from famous people like Mr Web Berners Lee, Richard Clayton, Nicholas Bohm etc. and a few nasty quotes from Phorm (like the "We see the whole internet" one and the "Two dead in Iraq" one).

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Actually, without wanting to blow my trumpet I think the above is an extremely good idea.

---------- Post added at 15:32 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Also something like this might be another useful parody:

http://www.paladine.org.uk/images/youcanclick.png

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

we need both..the workplace noticeboard and youtube, plus anything and everything else.

Nearly forgot, feel free to amend that pdf notice I did in whatever way anyone likes, (with their own website, etc.) but keep it snappy and simple otherwise joe publics eyes glaze.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google is showing 1,160.00 - trades today of 12,400.00 :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

k did a quick mashup of the "You Can Click" parody and replaced the huge image in my above post.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

shares.. 1,162.500 [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] -50.00 -4.12%

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something I must mention is, it is not totally true that a Firewall cannot affect this system. If the correct IP addresses or ranges are added to the firewall rules, it can badly affect the profiler forcing a temporary blacklisting of the current IP.

This however may or may not result in the DPI inspection taking place as there are still not clear details from either BT or Phorm!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Using your firewall to block webwise addresses is the last thing you want to do. It will make it impossible to browse the web on port 80 as the machine needs a valid webwise IP for the network to route it onto the internet.

BT have confirmed this explicitly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think I've seen a whole day like this with Phorm shares kissing the gaps between the financial floorboards quite like today. (unless the cockroaches come out to buy just before close). It's really quite heartening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It wasn't so long ago I noted this thread had reached the 1/3 million hits mark. Now the hits are 403K+ how long before we reach half a million hits?

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Close at 1100 :)


http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON:PHRM

1 & 3 month graphs look good.

EDIT : Aw! It's just popped up to 1150. :td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm are setting records at the moment...just not the type they would like to be setting.

They are setting a record for a new 52 week low on their share price each day now.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Who would have thought watching a number diminish could be so much fun :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Every quid off the share prince is 2 Million quid out of Kent's pocket. :tu:

(It's expensive living in London)

EDIT : I won't correct the typo above. Yes, I do get the image of The Prince of Darkness when I think of Kent, which explains it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So that's about £48M in the last 3 months then. Or approx $96M USD.

/me sets up motion detectors around his house...

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Comparing Phorm against the average for the sector for the last three months on iii is interesting:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/05/21.jpg

Surely even wettypants must be beginning to realise where this is going to end!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you reply reminded me about this part
"...
The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO), the UK Data Protection Authority, has issued several statements concerning Phorm.

According to these statements, the ICO has been told that the users will be duly informed about the technology and presented with the possibility to become involved, i.e. to provide their consent by positively opting in, and that they will also have the possibility to change their mind at any moment later.

The ICO states that it will be in close contact with Phorm and British Telecom (BT) during a trial of the technology involving around 10 000 BT broadband customers who will opt in to the trial.

The ICO finds that, according to the explanation provided by Phorm, there does not appear to be any detriment to users in the operation of the Phorm system but it will keep the Phorm products under review as they are rolled out to verify whether the assurances Phorm has provided so far are confirmed in practice.

.."

perhaps a few VERY cleverly worded FOI requests to the ICO asking for full discloser of all documents past regarding this "close contact" including its operational procedures they will take and all other ICO plans to track this most important review covering not just BT but potentially 70% plus of the whole UK BB installed base and every single person using that connection.

and all the dates they have been given for this trial to begin ,and any slippage dates they are aware of etc and a final must be compleated by date (or its scraped and off the table)if that exists.

or if indeed they are conducting it today in some obscure place, just to get the officail UK information commissioners 'its not happened yet' from the ICO would be something to use later in any EU paperwork...

its clear if the ICO are to be really effective in their full review of the Intercepton for profit , they must be in posession of the dates and all facts we cant seem to get out of BT

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/search/phorm

is the place to put them, the only other thing is the exact wording to get the most information out of your Freedom Of Information act request there....!

to be clear, its not just for our information ,but its also useful for keeping the presure on for any EU actions we may need/want to take later, paperwork and PDF's are good....... ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't believe BT if I were you, I've been doing this throughout!

Apart from temporary timeouts when the system is forced to re blacklist the IP address, the system works faster without the extra hops!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah, baby..
As at 28-May-2008 16:50:40 1,150.000 [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] -62.50 -5.15%

Now get those adverts/posters/ t shirts/ video mash/ etc../ by whoever OUT THERE, they are no good in here! No letup!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't need to believe BT, I just used them for reference. With the current method, if you have the webwise domain blocked in your firewall it is impossible to traverse onto the internet. It simply will not work since all requests MUST go through a webwise domain first and if you can't find that domain because you have blocked the IP your traffic is going literally nowhere.

And throughout what? The trials have not even started yet. BT have explicitly warned people not to block the webwise domain for this exact reason. It can't be worked around.

The only time (according to Kent) that the webwise system will blacklist your IP and bypass the profiler is if you have the cookie blocked (and even that takes a couple of attempts and only works for a very short period and as described by Dr Clayton (and confirmed by Kent at the PIA meeting) can still result in getting stuck in a loop). And this is detected by the webwise system, so even then you need to be able to get to the webwise system before this can happen.

So with respect, no blocking with your firewall is a very bad idea if you want to use the web at all on port 80.

Let me just add a little extra info to clarify matters. The Layer 7 Switch performing the Deep Packet Inspection looks for a cookie, whether you have a cookie or not, it forwards the packets to the webwise system, which will then attempt to set a cookie. If it is unable to set a webwise cookie it assumes it is blocked and blacklists the IP for about 6 minutes if I remember correctly (I would need to check on the time the IP stays blacklisted).

But regardless of whether a cookie is present or not, the first point in the system (the DPI switch) is going to forward everything to webwise and if webwise is blocked, that means you can't go anywhere.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent's minions have also collectively lost about £70k on their new share options, since they got them a week ago.

An average of £700 each.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here we go :)

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16062

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Optimised version (hope it wasn't copyrighted)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6156/webwisezy9.gif

check ADVFN - someone's put a link to it on their forum

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Doesn't matter if it is copyrighted, copyright doesn't cover parodies :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fyi, I've been pushing for any updates from Virgin Media and their stance regarding Phorm today while I was trying to gain a statement for another issue, its still the same.

A Virgin Media spokesperson says:

"There are no further updates at this stage - we are still investigating the technology, however we have not made a decision on deployment at this stage."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the update Mick.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let me just add a little extra info to clarify matters. The Layer 7 Switch performing the Deep Packet Inspection looks for a cookie, whether you have a cookie or not, it forwards the packets to the webwise system, which will then attempt to set a cookie. If it is unable to set a webwise cookie it assumes it is blocked and blacklists the IP for about 6 minutes if I remember correctly (I would need to check on the time the IP stays blacklisted).

But regardless of whether a cookie is present or not, the first point in the system (the DPI switch) is going to forward everything to webwise and if webwise is blocked, that means you can't go anywhere.

Alexander Hanff[/QUOTE]

Well I've been monitoring BT for over 12 months, although I didn't know it was Phorm behind it I knew the BT Service was doing strange things!

"How many infinite loops can the Webwise system itself take if it does not find a cookie which it may be depending on?", is also maybe a question to ask. This however depends on the way the router system is set up!

But I'll leave it there & wait to see by trial & error, if they do a consistent test instead of random network testing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not a question that I am aware has been asked yet. But according to Kent it will "only" effect about 1% of users (a figure we believe was just plucked out of thin air).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mick ,stick Alexanders parody, or someone write a few new news reports and pass them to Mick, the CF News page is there to pass the news, the good writers here should take advantage of that fact.

its strange that this thread is the fully informed Phorm DPI thread to read ,but we dont get any news stories written up and placed on the CF news page (other than the few from Mick and Alexander),and breaking here given all the newest data we have gets put in the thread.

anything put on the CableForum news page gets taken up almost instantly on the world wires, so it makes sense to put them there first...?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will write a news story tonight when family stuff has been dealt with.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps in the lull before the storm, we should do something to help them to come to a decision?

Did anyone ever hear anything back from Richard Branson for example?

I'm going to have a rummage around back in the thread and bring forward the various contact details that were found, into one post. We could have another go. When the pressure has been increased on VM, it did seem to eventually provoke a reaction.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem is that you cannot reach all, or anywhere near all, bt customers by mailing to @btinternet addresses. Many (like me) use a domain address in emails and you have no way of knowing who they are with. Perhaps if you are just trying to reach the non computer savy it would work, which are the sort of people who wouldn't have domains.

But I am not really in favour with this idea either. In this day of spam it would be fairly hard to make it not look like spam (though the click on anything brigade might still read it...). The choice of words would need to be very clearly worked out, and of course they would have to be sent blind carbon copy (BCC) so as to keep addresses invisible.

Personally my address book is fairly lightly populated as I don't add all and sundry to it. It is also largely made up of fairly technical people, as that is how I use the internet, and many of those have domains. I did consider posting to mailing lists I subscribe to but in most of those off topic postings are frowned on. So it has been no more than a quick mention, which got no response.

If it gets front page coverage in the Sun and lead story in the BBC news then people will notice. But I can't see that really happening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Already in hand ;)

I sent it by snail mail (the ICO having answered not one single online query or email I've sent to them concerning Phorm).

But don't let that stop you. The more ICO's lack of action is exposed the better.

The Information Commissioner is Richard Thomas (until June 2009, when I sincerely hope someone else will take the job instead).

Hard to believe it is the same Richard Thomas who gave this interview.

Richard Thomas,
The Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire,
SK9 5AF

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Net Tap, like wire tap but for the Net, everyone understands what a wire tap is and that you need to get authorisation for one so can link to similar assumptions for a Net Tap, except that no, your ISP is allowing someone to Net Tap your entire internet experience.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------

I was about to say they need to locate delivery stock to short but it is a LSE AIM stock so no locate required.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps if the daily tabloids get enough e-mails regarding the phorm-storm they might just consider it worth some ink and column space
The Sun The Star The Mirror The Express The Telegraph
The Daily Mail has covered some of the Phorm story already.

Even if some of them are considering the OIX, if they get enough negative e-mails they may follow The Guardian and decide it's not worth it.
Just a thought?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The 1% that opt out as 99% will be opting in by default, la la la la, la la la la, Ertugrul world, thats Ertugrul world....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah that is why we believe the figure was plucked out of thin air on the spot, because I and others certainly don't believe that 99% of 70% of the Broadband market are going to be happy with opting in to this technology.

Maybe, if we use historical data on advertising click throughs, he will get 10% of 1% of 70%

If he is lucky he might even make it to 1% of 70%

But 99%? I have a hat and will eat it...

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The technicalities of this are beyond me, but if there is a problem with the webwise domain (not blocked at firewall level) does this mean that all surfing will cease?

Is the webwise domain on the ISP premises or off site, can the link go down?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/edito...-european-law/

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

If the webwise system falls over or dns falls over, yes the entire system breaks and you can't access the web. This is one of the issues Dr Clayton discussed when talking about attacks which poison the DNS servers.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nasty.

Another good reason for ISPs to stay clear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Over on BadPhorm a while back user HowardR posted from his BT source that they would win because:

"An argument -- any argument -- is won when a simple question elicits a simple answer, not when a mass of technicalities covering past, present and future are all dredged up. Either the answer is so good, the debate ends there and then, or it's so poor, the questioner's position is strengthened to the point of being uncontestable."

So I decided to try to make a page, simple for the layman, yet still accurate. I came up with:

http://www.DoNotTrustWebwise.org/

Thanks to Madslug for all the help and also Deph Pete.

The wording probably needs to be made simpler so any help/comments/opinions are very welcome.

It would be helpful to keep them in the thread here:
http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f....php?6158.last

Or PM me or comment here etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are we on the right track with this campaign thingy?

Put yourself in the shoes of Joe Public. You know nothing at all about Phorm. You see a poster implying that your days of 'hiding' are over and you have nothing to 'protect' you. Isn't it a bit victim? And what do you do once you become aware that your 'hiding' days are over? Do you just get mad? Frustrated? Scared? Where do you turn for help?

We're not criminals. We would be the criminalised if deployment goes ahead.

Needs more thought I reckon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It keeps on coming:

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16064

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I tend to agree.
The Gadget show, whether 'geeky' or not, was great for exposure.

The daily tabloids and other mainstream programs are the best way... the problem is how to get them to take up the story?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very good - I'll definitely be making posts linking to that on other forums I frequent.

Have you considered adding the recent opinion from the EU?

Edit: With a link to http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16046

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How long will it be before they profile pron and gambling? That's 50% + put off.

Phorm have been careful to say they specifically exclude these because they know it will make a big chunk of Joe public angry/worried. But they are not going to ignore half the net for long.

I don't quite know how we would use this, but given the specific exclusions, phorm must know it would be dangerous to them.

Anyone know what the original reason for the introduction of premium rate 'phone numbers was? (I don't).

What are they used for now?

Anyone know much about how Kent's old spyware stuff worked? Did it involve pron and gambling? If it did, his ISPyware won't ignore it for long.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

Very useful. Could you include a link to the inphormationdesk as well?

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/

The idea behind that site is to be simple as well, but it contains quite a bit of further information for those interested. It avoids the use of a forum as well.