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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

nomadking 02-06-2021 08:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36081620)
Pay and conditions are what makes a job attractive, well that and job satisfaction, if you don't get the latter you need the former
And what exactly is meant to be the more lucrative alternative? Didn't realise we've reached the mythical zero-unemployment stage.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 09:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Every day brings the joy of being outside the wretched EU. They have shown themselves to the world for what they are - a bunch of hegemonist bullies and we're well out of it.

Why is it continuing, I hear someone ask? Because it's in Germany's interests as the EU's industrial power - remember, they rigged the Euro to favour their balance of payments.

France is Germany's running dog. It is noted that they objected to the Jersey fishing licensing conditions whilst at the same time tried to stiff Switzerland with a new treaty to replace the existing clutch of treaties, at the same time introducing new conditions that would make Switzerland a vassal state of the EU.

Pierre 02-06-2021 09:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081552)
No one's denying that the vaccine roll-out in the UK has been better than most of Europe. But to attribute that to Brexit is erroneous, although I accept that many people do link the two.
Come on Andrew, how do you say that with a straight face.

We would still be in the EU and bound by the vaccination procurement regime which was a cluster frack for all to see.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 10:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36081634)
Come on Andrew, how do you say that with a straight face.

We would still be in the EU and bound by the vaccination procurement regime which was a cluster frack for all to see.
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 10:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081636)
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.
Andrew, you're way off beam here as regards Covid. It's in the realms of the bleedin' obvious that had we joined the EU programme, we would now be at around the 50% mark rather than 75%.

Not that I can produce evidence, I'd be confident that the decision was taken right at the top. And even if it was Bingham's delegated decision, she obviously had a lightbulb moment.

On the fishing and red tape matters, these will sort themselves out.

Chris 02-06-2021 10:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081636)
I say it only because it's true. Kate Bingham herself said we could have opted in or out of the EU procurement plan regardless of EU membership. Despite being a Remainer, she chose not to join it.

I can understand why you perpetuate the myth as Brexit has not brought the desired benefits to fishing and small exporters are floundering in red tape.
You say it because you have never grasped how the EU functions. Consensus is everything, and vetoes and opt-outs are always controversial. The UK would not have been treaty-bound to participate in the EU scheme had we remained, however to suggest that we would not have participated is simply not credible.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 10:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36081637)
Andrew, you're way off beam here as regards Covid. It's in the realms of the bleedin' obvious that had we joined the EU programme, we would now be at around the 50% mark rather than 75%.

Not that I can produce evidence, I'd be confident that the decision was taken right at the top. And even if it was Bingham's delegated decision, she obviously had a lightbulb moment.

On the fishing and red tape matters, these will sort themselves out.
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members but I can understand why you might want to chalk this success up to Brexit.

The reality is somewhat harsher. All that Brexit has brought us in the way of Covid is the Indian variant as BoJo kept India off red status to try and strike a trade deal with that country.

Chris 02-06-2021 10:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081640)
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members
Please see my post above.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 11:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081639)
You say it because you have never grasped how the EU functions. Consensus is everything, and vetoes and opt-outs are always controversial. The UK would not have been treaty-bound to participate in the EU scheme had we remained, however to suggest that we would not have participated is simply not credible.
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.

Chris 02-06-2021 11:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081644)
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.
As I said - you don’t understand the EU and you never have.

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 11:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081640)
Kate Bingham herself confirmed joining the EU procurement programme was not mandatory for EU members but I can understand why you might want to chalk this success up to Brexit.

The reality is somewhat harsher. All that Brexit has brought us in the way of Covid is the Indian variant as BoJo kept India off red status to try and strike a trade deal with that country.
Never mind what Bingham "herself" said. Those EU members who subscribed to the programme were left in a right mess by VdL and had we joined, we would be up the same street - 50% first vaccinations or thereabouts.

You cannot put the Indian variant down to Brexit. That's plain stupid and way below your normal standard. The two way human traffic with India would have happened anyway. You're pinning your argument on Boris' stupidity in holding out to so a trade deal with India. Notwithstanding the delay, the Indian variant was already seeded here.

Plus you steadfastedly ignore that we are free from the diktats of the EU. We have our sovereignty and everything will find ists proper level.

1andrew1 02-06-2021 11:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36081645)
As I said - you don’t understand the EU and you never have.
I'm not going to assess anyone's understanding of the EU but will just share the facts:

From Full Fact:

Quote:
WHAT WAS CLAIMED
The UK was able to approve the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine more quickly because of Brexit.

OUR VERDICT
This is not correct. Under European law, the UK was permitted to act independently to approve the vaccine in an emergency.
https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/


From the Institute of Government:

Quote:
The UK could have followed the same course of vaccine action if it were an EU member
That said, none of these successes can be chalked up to Brexit. As the chief executive of the MHRA swiftly pointed out, Mr Hancock was wrong to say that the UK could approve the vaccine early because it was no longer subject to EU rules. The MHRA’s decision was taken in accordance with the relevant EU legislation, which allows member states to grant temporary authorisation for a medicinal product in response to the spread of infectious diseases (among others). [1] This legislation still applies to the UK until the end of the transition period. Any EU member state could have used the same provision of the legislation to approve the vaccine. They decided not to for political and technical reasons, not legal ones.

Similarly, the member states were in no way obliged to take part in the EU’s joint vaccine procurement scheme. The EU has very limited competences for public health under its founding treaties: it can take action only to “support, coordinate or supplement the actions of the Member States”. The EU member states in this case voluntarily decided to opt into the joint procurement scheme. If one or more of them had decided to follow the UK’s path and procure its own vaccines, no one would have stopped them.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit

Sephiroth 02-06-2021 11:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081644)
Vaccines are a matter of life and death. Britain with its strong history of EU opt-outs would not have blinked twice at not opting into such a programme following the same analytical path that Kate Bingham took.
To pretend otherwise does this great country of ours a grave disservice. Our track record on taking an independent line in the EU and making difficult decisions when in the country's best interests was a proud one.
So, let's assume that we are in the EU but Bingham/Boris decided to opt out of the EU procurement.

The screw-up would still have occurred and VdL would still have demanded British produced vaccine. A referendum at that point would have produced an even greater Leave margin!

It's no use being in a consensus group of 28 countries, unable to decide our own destiny and being royally stiffed by France on Fishing, Agriculture and the WTD.

Carth 02-06-2021 11:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Didn't the EU jump on one of it's members for trying to 'go it alone' with a vaccine . . or am I imagining it?

Not that it matter this far down the line . . the only reason it's being mentioned is for a direction the finger can be pointed in :p:

Chris 02-06-2021 12:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36081648)
I'm not going to assess anyone's understanding of the EU but will just share the facts:

From Full Fact:


https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-vaccine-brexit/


From the Institute of Government:


https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...cisions-brexit
Every post you make simply demonstrates my point.

The answer doesn’t lie in what treaties permit. It lies in the way the council of ministers works, particularly when they’re all shut in long, closed negotiations.

The idea that the UK would have taken the political hit of abandoning the other EU member states by not joining the vaccine programme, had it been an EU member riding on the back of a recent vote to remain in the bloc, is absolutely absurd.


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