Re: Brexit
 

More unnecessary digs, jibes and arguments removed, timeouts given.

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Well they've all got their Feb half term skiing holidays to fit in aswell..... Even though the recess has been cancelled they kicked up a fuss and are now allowed to go ! https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...49122784568032

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That just beggars belief
BTW the link doesn't work.

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Suggests they'll go for an extension doesn't it?

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They might try and get some sneaky votes in depending on which MPs head for the slopes ;)

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Hold on, I thought when they weren't in parliament they were working hard with their constituents, even being in prison won't stop some of them working hard for their constituents after all

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aka sloping off. :)
But Parliament will be closed now won't it?

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I think they have plans to use the pairing option in any voting [i read that somewhere can't remember where.]

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...though that's been abused in the past.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...serious-damage

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Pairing only works when parliamentary business is uncontroversial and both sides of the House ultimately recognise the Executive’s right to govern and to control the business of the legislature.

None of those conditions apply at present. There are too many whip-defying rebels on both sides. I just don’t see how pairing can work, unless they’re limiting business to strictly non-Brexit related items of business.

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Moggy now saying that he would accept a short extension to Article 50:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...cob-rees-mogg/

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Difficult on the iPad to get the full URL from yesterday’s Torygraph Business Section, which reported:

A group of top German economists has told the EU to tear up the Irish backstop and ditch its ideological demands in Brexit talks, calling instead for a flexible Europe of concentric circles that preserves friendly ties with the UK.

Brussels must “abandon its indivisibility dogma” on the EU’s four freedoms and come up with a creative formula or risk a disastrous showdown with London that could all too easily spin out of control.

A joint report by the influential Ifo Institute and universities across Germany and Europe warned that Brussels may be deluding itself in thinking that the EU has the upper hand in all respects or that the British will inevitably capitulate before March 29.

“In a standard game of chicken, the actor who loses the most will dodge first. Can the EU really be sure that losses are sufficiently asymmetrically distributed that it ‘wins’ this game?” the report asked.

“This is a very dangerous game, both for the UK and for EU. It is wiser to take the threat of a hard Brexit at face value and react accordingly. Recognising that a hard Brexit is in no one’s interest and that it would cause irreparable political as well as economic damage, we call both on the UK government and the EU Commission to rethink their ‘red lines’ and return to the negotiation table,” it said.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...-euideologues/

Got it.

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Don't suppose you could cut and paste the whole of the Torygraph each day (esp the sport)? I hate pay walls ;)

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Torygraph does not have a paywall, just a limit on free articles. The Times articles on the other hand would be handy to be cut & pasted.

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Heads up for anyone going on holiday or work in the EU (except Ireland) and Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland after March 2019, if we have a "no deal" Brexit - you will need to have six months left on your passport at the end of your travel, whereas currently you don’t.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/passport...e-after-brexit

This is neither pro or anti-Brexit, just trying to help people before the rush in April/May (if we have a ‘no deal’ Brexit when people realise they will need to get a passport sooner than they thought*).

*me, for instance, as up to today I thought my passport, which expires in October 19, would cover me for Barcelona in May, Italy in June, and Cyprus in September.

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Will it be a different kind of passport as we will no longer be in the EU?
If so is there a version ready to be printed.

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The blue ones aren’t coming out until October when the new contract for their production starts. I believe in the interim the burgundy one will be supplied without the words EUROPEAN UNION on the top. That in itself is a win for me.

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Well, it's up to the passport holder (self responsibility and all that) - probably just fine you as you leave the country, or as you enter Switzerland, will be asked how long you are there for - if it's a couple of days, and you only have 6 months and a day left on your passport, probably won't let you in.

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If we leave with no deal i've got the paperwork ready to get an Irish passport.

They have said that they have had a massive increase in applications for both nationality & passports from people outside Ireland and are looking for volunteers to help cope with the deluge of applications.

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Just stick a Guinness label over the old one.

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:D :D :D

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Remember to dress in green and have a pig tucked under your arm as you pass through the control station. :D

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Your fantasies shouldn’t be shared online...;)

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Forgive me but what a lot of hysterical nonsense. Do you really travel that often, that urgently or at such short notice that a British passport is going to be such an inconvenience to you at Calais or Malaga or wherever? You have to show your passport when you arrive at an external Schengen border already. When a plane from Heathrow lands at Paris CDG almost everyone getting off it currently goes to the EU passport queue and the non-EU queue is almost empty. On 30 March the two queues will swap and the net difference will be close to zero.

I too am entitled to an Irish passport ... I won’t be applying for one.

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Well, my British passport has expired, so I thought I might as well get an Irish one as those with an EU passport are usually waved through IIRC.

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People from non-visa countries are waved through pretty quickly as well.

Just don’t forget that once you’re traveling on an Irish passport you need the Irish embassy to help you out if you need consular assistance while traveling, particularly if your passport is lost or stolen. Don’t be fooled by the large number of honorary consuls appointed around the world by the Irish government. Most of them are unpaid and can’t deal with passport/visa issues. In terms of actual embassies, consulates and high commissions with the ability to render useful assistance, the U.K. has many more.

I have first hand family experience of having to deal with a foreign embassy due to a lost passport on holiday. IMO it really isn’t worth it just to make a political statement or to save a couple of minutes at immigration.

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Interesting to know this, thanks Chris. It might not be worth it to save a bit of time at the airport in case something goes wrong.

There isn't that much difference in price either, a UK passport costs £75.50 (if done online) and an Irish one works out at £70.02.

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He can gain rights as in Irish citizen that he won’t have as a UK national.

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The right to be a perfidious EU citizen, seems to give more rights and freedoms. Applications have rocketed and they've run out of application forms...

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Terrible thing to say - I have Irish relatives, and know quite a few Irish, and I can’t think of one who despises the U.K. - unlike some, they don’t spend their time being derogatory about other countries...

Re: Brexit
 

Some of us are getting there from within.

If you don’t know what rights Irish nationals have within the European Union have then it begs the question do you know what rights we have now? If not, perhaps this is an example of why the issue wasn’t appropriate to a referendum: ignorance of material facts.

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I'm entitled to a German one, I don't think it's worth the hassle either, the only reason I'd apply is so my children could get one if they ever showed any desire to live and work in Europe, you know like what Nigel farage has done for his children, given them the opportunities He has denied for other peoples kids. Jacob really smug did the same for what he cares most about to, his cash, in fact some one far more qualified than myself should really look into these hypocritical snake oil salesmen and see exactly what they're getting up to or is it do as we say plebs not as we do and you might get some cheap shoes out of it

Re: Brexit
 

Doubtless, other factors alongside Brexit will be cited but given the current threat of no-deal, I defy any company to invest billions right now.
https://news.sky.com/story/nissan-ca...-blow-11625885

---------- Post added at 09:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 ----------

Which countries despise the UK?

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It's just us that despises everyone else..

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The Germans actually love us for some reason. 'Englishness' goes down very well. (not the soccer hooligan type !)

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Hmmmm l don't personally.

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Any country that has a trade deal with the EU is very unlikely to not be prepared to have a similar deal with the UK.

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We have less to offer so the chances are they’ll want more from us. Visas probably.

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Now being reported on the BBC News channel that Theresa May has "had another idea" with regards to Brexit. What this is hasn't been disclosed as yet.

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

If we leave with no deal I might get one in order to continue using my EHIC card. I could also get a UK one in case I need assistance with any problems whilst abroad.

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 ----------

Benefits will no longer be exportable if we leave with no deal, I wonder how this will affect pensioners in Spain? If their UK pensions stop, they will no longer be exempt from having to pay for Spanish healthcare:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...leave-daughter

Re: Brexit
 

There’s no mechanism to stop UK state pensions for anyone entitled to one living abroad, whether in the EU or not. What may change is that it no longer rises each year. The way around this for many immigrants who left the UK will be to use a UK address of a family member.

Re: Brexit
 

Just confirmed now.

https://twitter.com/SunderlandEcho/status/1092029191044956161

I hope the workers are ok. Whatever 'side' you're on in this no one wants to see job losses.

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I think this would be illegal ..

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Probably, but almost undetectable as long as the mail is delivered to the address given.

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You seem to have difficulty discerning the difference between liberation from an occupying country who had stolen the land from the natives and then suppressed their rights because of their religion (Irish Independence from Britain) and being part of a larger economic group of countries which support each other.

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There are no job losses, this was about investment and job creation. The X-Trail which 100% made in japan was to be made here, announced 3 years ago.

However, no that Japan has got its FTA with the EU that isn’t so urgent now. They will cite Brexit for their reasoning and probably is a factor, but not the whole reason

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

If it was just that, there wouldn’t be an issue

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Yes, it would clearly be benefit fraud to claim to be living elsewhere in order to obtain higher payments from the welfare state. Unfortunately, as my earlier link showed, sick & disabled people wouldn't even continue to receive frozen payments.

A lot of disabled people go to live abroad as the warmer climate is better for various conditions (sometimes on doctors advice). If I decided to do this it looks like i'd have to obtain an Irish passport to be able to move to Spain. I have friends in India, so maybe I could go there if there are no longer any advantages to moving to an EU country and my benefits would be stopped anyway. It's a lot cheaper to live, but I don't know what the Indian healthcare system is like- do you?

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That would only work if your benefits and Pension came from Ireland. They are "transported" from one EU country to another EU country.

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State pension has different rules on residency because it’s based on contributions. Someone in theory has to have paid in to get out.

Re: Brexit
 

So, The English didn’t invade Ireland, dispossess the local Catholic land-owners, confiscate their land, put absentee English landlords in their place and bring in Scottish and English settlers, and in the 17th Century kill, or exile (as slaves), half the population?

That must have another Ireland, then...:dozey:

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Re: Brexit
 

Thats true, this is why i'm saying that if I were to lose my benefits anyway, i'm no longer confined to having to go to an EU country. India is dirt cheap to live and most speak English, but it's their healthcare system that might put me off.

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------

ESA is also based on contributions, but there doesn't appear to be any special concession for the sick/disabled to permanently claim it abroad (if we leave without a deal). It's important that I continue to receive this as it awards NI credits for my state pension (I don't pay NI contributions via the income from my job.)

Re: Brexit
 

ESA is based on contributions for 12 months after which it’s means tested. There’s no reason to continue to pay means tested benefits in this country for anyone resident overseas.

Re: Brexit
 

Incorrect, Contribution Based ESA (now called New Style ESA) can be paid indefinitely to some claimants. Income Based ESA is gradually being phased out and claimants moved over to Universal Credit (UC). For those where ESA does stop, UC can be paid whilst abroad for between 1 and 6 months.

Payment of means tested benefits whilst abroad has never been available on a permanent basis as they are funded from general taxation. It's believed that the taxpayer should not have to fund people who don't live in this country. Whilst I agree with this, it's annoying that EU migrants (usually Poles in my experience) can come here and claim Child Benefit etc for their offspring back home.

Re: Brexit
 

As you say not job losses but the job creation aspect is wiped out not just at Nissan but for all the suppliers. Diesel turndown which also plays a part can’t be used as a reason as Nissan are revamping the engine range. The lines in Sunderland are the most effective that Nissan have in their manufacturing base.

The people of Sunderland as a whole are turkeys voting for Christmas. Sunderland needs all the investment that they can get. The city is a shadow of its former self.

Re: Brexit
 

I visit (South) India once or twice a year and from what I can see the healthcare system would be viewed at best, of variable quality. Of course, if you have the money, similar to here, you would get a quality service but for those on moderate incomes, even when transposing this to the Indian cost of living, you may be disappointed when compared to the NHS. I think it would be a bit of a punt ..

This idea was the basis of the 'The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel' film but I am not sure on how many people have actually done it.

Re: Brexit
 

They actually can’t, that’s a myth.

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What's a myth?

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I read it as the final sentence is a myth.

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He hasn't made himself clear, but if we assume it's Re: Poles (and others) claiming Child Benefit for kids abroad then he's incorrect again.

Cameron even made a statement about this ridiculous situation in Parliament after this hit the media:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...nts-outside-uk

Seven years ago we were paying 36 million pounds a year for this (due to EU rules we have no choice), yet at the same time Child Benefit for children living in this country has been cut in real terms and stopped completely in some cases.

When I said that both leaving & staying in the EU had advantages and disadvantages, this will be one of the advantages of leaving.

Re: Brexit
 

Unless I read this wrong......they can.

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-move-to-uk

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Thanks, I knew you'd been to India and wondered what your observations were :)

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No, they’re not - you just say they are.

To (most) Irish, and those of Irish descent, it’s History - we acknowledge it, but know it’s in the past, and don’t get bitter (if only others did the same).

Vardakar was born in Dublin, his mother is from County Waterford - how is he "non-native Irish"?

That’s like saying my son and daughter are "non-native English" because I was born in Scotland, even though they were born, and have lived all their lives (not counting Uni and travels abroad) in Yorkshire.

"non-native Irish" - shame on you.

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Re: Brexit
 

Big difference between non-Irish name and non-Irish native...

Is Sajid Javid a non-British native because of his non-British name?

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One of the issues that was entirely down to weak UK laws, which the Poles have taken advantage of.

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You have to have contributed before you can it for a child who lives outside the UK according to that. Means-tested benefits don't make you eligible.

For instance you wouldn't qualify if you get Income-based JSA, but would if you get contributions-based JSA.

So you get a benefit that you've paid towards via taxation - what's incorrect about that?

Re: Brexit
 

It was the EU that forced us to pay for children in Poland etc. Child Benefit isn't a contributory benefit, but it's true that to take advantage of this EU migrants have to be working.

This is easy to exploit eg a taxi driver saying that they earn £1 an hour, a scrap metal collector who, on paper, hardly finds any metal etc.

I think that Cameron brought in various rules to combat this (we are unable to treat EU migrants any differently to those living here) eg two child limit, increasing the minimum wage (which the Tories were initially against completely as they thought that a min wage would cost jobs) and a notional income from self employed people after one year for Universal Credit etc.

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 ----------

Even before we both joined the EU, I believe that since the 1930's the UK & Ireland have had a reciprocal agreement where people are free to live between the two countries. I was also under the impression that a passport wasn't needed.

I'm thinking of visiting Ireland when i'm well enough (it will be after Brexut day) and initially thought that I wouldn't need to renew my passport but, apparently, the airlines sometimes insist on a passport!?

Re: Brexit
 

There is a common travel area within the entire British Isles and you do not need a passport in order to fulfil immigration requirements, but if you’re using an airline, rather than a ferry, both immigration and the airline itself may demand to see photographic ID.

I spent a couple of years traveling to and from Dublin once a fortnight on Aer Lingus. Both the airline and the Glasgow and Dublin immigration desks were happy with my driving licence.

Re: Brexit
 

So you keep saying, but I have seen no evidence of it amongst the Irish I know - however, I have seen lots of resentment from you towards the Irish, French, and Germans, so perhaps you are projecting? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Yeah, some airlines will only accept a passport as ID - Ryanair comes to mind. Others are OK with photo ID (British Airways, Aer Lingus for example) Best check with your airline...

Re: Brexit
 

Thanks, it seems that different airlines have different rules then. I take it that the ferry don't require a passport, but will presumably want photo ID?

Does anyone know how long it takes on a ferry? It might be easier for me, depending upon how long it takes. I've only ever been via British Airways and don't recall them ever needing a passport, but assumed that this was because both countries were in the EU.

I was once told that, technically, you don't even need a passport to travel to any other EU country, but in practice this is likely to cause problems. If countries are going to circumvent the freedom of movement rules, it makes a mockery of them and makes the whole thing pointless!

Re: Brexit
 

But are both of them a big enough sample to arrive at a conclusion.;)

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The onus here is on Seph to support his statement with evidence, not the other way round.

Re: Brexit
 

Couldn't the common travel area be used as a way to resolve the Irish border problem ie if the UK is no longer part of the EU, couldn't things carry on as they were because of this?

I'm sure it's not that simple though, or politicians/civil servants would have thought of this already.

Re: Brexit
 

I think we all know he can’t, at ps is just joking with reference to polls.

The Sinn Fein President was on Marr who suggested they take their seats in the House of Commons and she quite rightly said they have no business in a British Parliament and that it should look after itself and Ireland look after itself. Not an unreasonable proposition, and one that would be likely supported by Brexiteers but for the fact they have to pay lip service to the DUP.

---------- Post added at 14:12 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

The problem isn’t people, it’s goods and services.

The EU don’t want us as a back door for any old crap (chlorinated chicken etc.) entering the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

I'm from an Irish Catholic family - two kids are the minimum per offspring - i'm one of five (surviving) siblings, I have four offspring (from two marriages), oldest brother has three offspring, next bro has two, next bro has five, sister has three, and my dad one of of 8 children, and my mum one of six, all of whom are similar numbers of offspring (and that's not counting all the second cousins and friends) - and that's just the immediate family and friends, not counting relatives back in Ireland.

Your premise is not based on actuality... ;)

Re: Brexit
 

If any of your parents or grandparents were Irish, you will be entitled to Irish citizenship and/or an Irish passport if you want them. Unless you did this before your children were born, you wouldn't be able to pass this on to them though.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:04 ----------

Northern Ireland voted to remain, I wonder if they've considered a way round this to be to allow NI to stay in the EU??

However, this could then result in England, Wales and Scotland calling to remain as well (if any of these countries voted to remain too).

Edit: Scotland voted to remain, whilst Wales and England both voted to leave.

If NI was allowed to stay in the EU as a country, I suspect that Scottish remainers would call for the the same arrangement to also be applied to Scotland.

Re: Brexit
 

The SNP have been calling for any special arrangement for Northern Ireland (e.g. staying in the customs union) to apply to Scotland. However the DUP won’t allow special arrangements for NI. They’d collapse the Government first.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

None of the home nations voted for anything.

This was a United Kingdom ballot on a matter concerning the United Kingdom. Every U.K. voter cast a single vote of equal worth, on an issue which they understood would apply to the whole U.K. In Scotland in particular, when the independence vote was held in September 2014 the EU referendum was already a policy the Tory party was publicly committed to pursue after the 2015 general election. Nobody in Scotland can claim they didn’t know that remaining in the U.K. entailed a vote on whether the U.K. would remain in the EU, regardless of anything any outraged, spinning nationalist politician might tell you.

To say that Scotland voted for one thing or another is to co-opt the votes of everyone in Scotland who voted the other way. Co-opting voices and claiming their support is a trick right out of the nationalist playbook, as is demanding that things be done differently on their turf, because it serves the longer term aim of differentiation.

Yes, the SNP would demand Scotland be treated differently if Northern Ireland was, but that demand would have nothing to do with the very particular circumstances of Northern Ireland and everything to do with trying to create similar circumstances in Scotland.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't think it will happen tbh, also, if NI was treated differently to the rest of the UK, the DUP would probably object. I only hope that, whatever happens, the troubles don't resurface.

The whole thing seems to be more complicated than what a lot of people realised, apparent solutions to various issues only serve to be objectionable to others.

Re: Brexit
 

If the troubles do arise it’s because England are ignoring the will of the island of Ireland. So not entirely new that trouble flares elsewhere because of bad decisions made in London. That’s virtually the whole collapse of the Empire in a nutshell.

Re: Brexit
 

They haven't exactly stopped

Timeline of dissident republican activity

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-10866072

Re: Brexit
 

This event seems to have been deleted from press coverage. I wonder why?

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/...7-248f2a072f42

Steve Bakers evidence is very damning. He claims the Dept for exiting the EE (DEXEU) was set up as a front, to make it look as though the government was supporting Brexit, but it was being sidelined at every opportunity to stay as close to the EU as possible. The DEXEU dept was comprised of Leavers, but other depts were all comprised of Remainers who were working against the DEXEU, in secrecy.


He also says he asked for a Minister to be appointed to refute all the scare stories in the press, but was denied permission. He wanted the government to publicise the good news, ie. arrangements completed to ensure free trade at ports, and was again refused.

I'm obliged to a member on another forum for bringing this to my attention.

Re: Brexit
 

Because it smacks of a preemptive attempt to blame failings on everyone else as per usual?

Re: Brexit
 

Brexiters blaming others for the oncoming economic crisis, surely not !

Re: Brexit
 

If the entire government was working together to get as close a relationship as possible then that was hardly reflected in the deal May came back with was it? Since the start it’s clear freedom of movement was a red line and she never wavered from that. We said two years ago the Brexiters would try to create a stab in the back narrative when the brilliant deal never materialised and here we are.

Re: Brexit
 

NI is already treated differently to the rest of the U.K.

The 1967 Abortion Act and the 2013 Defamation Act do not apply in Northern Ireland, and there are quite a few laws that are different (much like Scotland).

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

And more news...

https://news.sky.com/story/leaving-e...m-fox-11627019 This from the man who said in 2017 Catching Ebola is survivable, but it’s not something most people would chose to do...

Re: Brexit
 

They are LOCAL issues, not national ones. Just as in the US, individual states cannot pass laws in certain areas, they are done at Federal level.


A trade deal with the EU should've been easy, if it wasn't for the Remain side sabotaging it by giving the impression that the UK would give in to whatever the EU demanded. "No deal" would be bad for the EU, but they are constantly given the impression that one way or another that a "bad deal" (as far the UK is concerned), will be the final result.

Re: Brexit
 

We've already got a trade deal with the EU, it come with the membership..
Remainers are not to blame for Brexit ! It's a crap idea always has been.

Re: Brexit
 

Remainers ARE to blame for Brexit, in that they are the ones that made EU membership unpalatable for the MAJORITY. Nevertheless what I was referring to, as "Hugh" was in the post I was responding to, is the ease or otherwise of getting a sensible deal with the EU. After all, if the EU is so ready to do deals with Japan, Vietnam and others, why not with us? How close is the deal with Japan to what would be acceptable in the UK and to the Brexit side(ie respecting democracy)? I doubt Japan is allowing freedom of movement, following rules set by the EU, and ruled on by the ECJ?

Re: Brexit
 

Presumably exporting tariff free into the third largest economy (and the growth possibilities in Japan) is more appealing than exporting into the sixth?