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Legendkiller2k 03-12-2019 21:11
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozsat (Post 36019124)
The Palace games looks good here to even though only HD.

The Burnley game is also in HDR on some devices.
Yeah is HDR on my LGtv.

DVD Cinema 04-12-2019 08:19
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Games on are only 25fps in HD V6 box though and stutter. They are 50fps on Apple TV and Fire Stick and look impressive, if not the stream.

OLD BOY 04-12-2019 09:53
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019126)
l agree with much of what you say as for several years Sky has been adapting their strategy in a changing marketplace with far more competition now then there was then and part of that strategy is less reliance on sport and more diversification in producing high quality content.
Agreed. I have been saying for a long time that Sky need to produce more content of their own instead of relying on (mainly American) content produced by others. Content is everything, and this, I believe, is the only way to fight the global streamers and survive in the future world.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019127)
Of course the untimely demise of linear isn’t the only um, bold, prediction on the forum. He has, in my view mistakenly, consistently underestimated the ability of the incumbents in the pay tv market to react. In the past consistently the mantra was about how companies are going to come in and steamroller over the top.

When in practice many of us have said that the incumbents, with their huge existing revenues, profits and customer base, are well placed to adapt to the future regardless of how that looks.
Of course they can adapt, but a continuation of scheduled linear channels as now are not the way.

The BBC i-Player, as an example, is good enough for the present, but ultimately, content will be available through a relatively small number of big streamers. Something like Britbox will be where we will find most of our UK programmes in the future.

denphone 04-12-2019 10:02
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019167)

The BBC i-Player, as an example, is good enough for the present, but ultimately, content will be available through a relatively small number of big streamers. Something like Britbox will be where we will find most of our UK programmes in the future.
l doubt that Britbox will last that long but you know that anyway..

jfman 04-12-2019 13:05
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019167)
Agreed. I have been saying for a long time that Sky need to produce more content of their own instead of relying on (mainly American) content produced by others. Content is everything, and this, I believe, is the only way to fight the global streamers and survive in the future world.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:47 ----------



Of course they can adapt, but a continuation of scheduled linear channels as now are not the way.

The BBC i-Player, as an example, is good enough for the present, but ultimately, content will be available through a relatively small number of big streamers. Something like Britbox will be where we will find most of our UK programmes in the future.
I fail to see how continuation of scheduled linear broadcasts can be described as "not the way" when since the development of Sky+ in the UK (2002?) and cable "on demand" consumers have had the option of not watching live linear scheduled television yet still they do.

Legendkiller2k 04-12-2019 14:48
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019171)
l doubt that Britbox will last that long but you know that anyway..
Who knows regarding Britbox especially as you don't need to pay the tv tax for it.

oliver1948uk 04-12-2019 15:03
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
I agree that whether we like it or not streaming will continue to increase at the expense of linear channels.

What I disagree with is the inference that this will be better.

After a hard day, it is relaxing to sit down and within a few clicks be watching favourite pre-recorded episodes of series previously easily set up waiting for you on your hard disk, sometimes giving a pleasant surprise because new episodes have magically appeared. All this at a fixed monthly rate negotiated about once a year.

No messing with different inputs and sticks. No weighing up the contents of one against the other. No searching for the cheapest code. No wading through rubbish looking for what you want to watch. No worrying over the monthly cost of it all. To me, this is hell though I accept others a actually want this.

OLD BOY 04-12-2019 16:35
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019177)
I fail to see how continuation of scheduled linear broadcasts can be described as "not the way" when since the development of Sky+ in the UK (2002?) and cable "on demand" consumers have had the option of not watching live linear scheduled television yet still they do.
Frankly, old chap, I don't think you'd see it if it was biting your leg off.

There's still a sizeable chunk of the population who don't have smart tvs, Sky, Virgin, BT or Talk Talk and so for them, on demand viewing is not easily available.

It's the trend you should be watching, not current numbers.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019171)
l doubt that Britbox will last that long but you know that anyway..
Given the stink that was created when Virgin took off the UKTV channels, I wouldn't be so sure, Den. Britbox really do need to add new original programmes on a reguler basis to become a force to be reckoned with, though.

I can't see myself subscribing for the foreseeable future given that new material will not be very prominent for a while.

jfman 04-12-2019 17:42
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019190)
Frankly, old chap, I don't think you'd see it if it was biting your leg off.

There's still a sizeable chunk of the population who don't have smart tvs, Sky, Virgin, BT or Talk Talk and so for them, on demand viewing is not easily available.

It's the trend you should be watching, not current numbers.
It’s your misunderstanding of trends that’s causing the problem and the assumption they must trend to 100%.

I’ve cited an example before where 3/5 years of iPhone sales upwards trend continuing results in 100% market penetration of the iPhone after about 10 years. A ridiculous notion, I’m sure you’d agree.

Consider internet penetration. Still not 100%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...t-penetration/

Mobiles. Not 100%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ion-in-the-uk/

Unfortunately you have confirmation bias so can’t see past the future YOU would like and have been posting about since 2014. Objectivity is so far gone.

I barely watch television, and rarely linear. I don’t have a case I feel passionately about, as you clearly do.

However objectivity tells me that modifying consumer behaviour in the final 20% is much, much harder than capturing the low hanging fruit.

Bofrok 04-12-2019 18:12
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendkiller2k (Post 36019129)
Yeah is HDR on my LGtv.
That's interesting Legendkiller2k, I have an LG set and the picture quality on the Palace game was far superior than that for the Burnley game. I didn't think to check the picture quality but it did look like HDR whereas Burnley/City was barely HD until later in the second half.

Note: That's not forgetting the focus problems I mentioned in the Coming Soon thread yesterday.

Legendkiller2k 04-12-2019 18:28
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bofrok (Post 36019204)
That's interesting Legendkiller2k, I have an LG set and the picture quality on the Palace game was far superior than that for the Burnley game. I didn't think to check the picture quality but it did look like HDR whereas Burnley/City was barely HD until later in the second half.

Note: That's not forgetting the focus problems I mentioned in the Coming Soon thread yesterday.
Was you using the LG app or the junk v6 app?

Bofrok 04-12-2019 18:34
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendkiller2k (Post 36019207)
Was you using the LG app or the junk v6 app?
The LG app, still on the original Tivo at the moment.

Chad 04-12-2019 18:37
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...customers/amp/

Netflix end free month trials in the UK. Checked the Netflix website and you can only join by entering straight into a subscription with them.

Legendkiller2k 04-12-2019 18:47
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bofrok (Post 36019208)
The LG app, still on the original Tivo at the moment.
Defo seemed UHD on mine, mind you i didn't check the quality though and only had quick look at it to see what it was like.
Nividia shield was defo UHD as that's one i watched it properly on.

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad (Post 36019209)
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...customers/amp/

Netflix end free month trials in the UK. Checked the Netflix website and you can only join by entering straight into a subscription with them.
Starting to push their luck a bit now one thinks.

horno46 04-12-2019 21:46
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Anybody else finding the need to reboot the V6 box frequently in order to get Netflix to connect?

Chris 04-12-2019 22:21
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Right. Liverpool v Everton, Amazon Prime app on my Samsung 7 Series 4K tellybox. Maximum achievable download speed on our modest ADSL line is 4.5 mbit. And the football was absolutely awful. Blocky, artefacts everywhere, mushy the moment there was any kind of movement on screen. Not a problem I had with the BT Sport app watching the champions league final. It was so mind bogglingly awful to watch I had to give up at half time.

jfman 04-12-2019 22:42
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
I watched some of the football tonight and it weighed in at a not insubstantial 5GB over Vodafone 4G. Largely no issues other than the apparent judder when the camera pans left/right.

buckeye 05-12-2019 10:07
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019243)
I watched some of the football tonight and it weighed in at a not insubstantial 5GB over Vodafone 4G. Largely no issues other than the apparent judder when the camera pans left/right.
What device did you use to watch the football?
I have no juddering when the camera pans on my Firetv 4k sticks (which switch to the correct framerate) or on the webOS app on my LG TV's.
My AVR reports the framerate as 50fps so if your device doesn't automatically switch to that try setting the video output to 50 Hz on it.

Amazon have surprised me how good their football coverage has been picture wise, the HD streams are as good as broadcast HD from Sky and BT and the UHD/HDR streams have been the best I've seen, far superior to BT Sports Ultimate on my V6 box and as good if not better than the BBC's UHD/HLG football coverage with the added bonus of having DD+ surround sound whereas the BBC just does stereo sound.

OLD BOY 05-12-2019 10:29
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019200)
It’s your misunderstanding of trends that’s causing the problem and the assumption they must trend to 100%.

I’ve cited an example before where 3/5 years of iPhone sales upwards trend continuing results in 100% market penetration of the iPhone after about 10 years. A ridiculous notion, I’m sure you’d agree.

Consider internet penetration. Still not 100%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...t-penetration/

Mobiles. Not 100%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ion-in-the-uk/

Unfortunately you have confirmation bias so can’t see past the future YOU would like and have been posting about since 2014. Objectivity is so far gone.

I barely watch television, and rarely linear. I don’t have a case I feel passionately about, as you clearly do.

However objectivity tells me that modifying consumer behaviour in the final 20% is much, much harder than capturing the low hanging fruit.
The reason you appear to misunderstand so much is that you manufacture arguments by the other person that have never been made. This is a case in point. Where have I ever said that the viewing of traditional viewing will trend down to 100%? That is indeed a ridiculous notion and you then use that argument to try to discredit me.

What I have said (you can go back and check for yourself) is that the viewing of these traditional channels will continue to fall until they are no longer profitable. The reason why profitability will suffer is that advertising revenues will fall to the extent that the commercial channels will no longer take sufficient revenue from their advertising sales.

I appreciate that you have a different take on this (ie that scheduled channels can operate on a shoestring), but with respect, I do not think that is the case. The existing minor channels that operate on very little revenue are showing material that is as cheap as chips. You can't compare them with the likes of ITV or the other relatively big hitters. I know the broadcasters will be paying for programmes to be shown on the streaming services, but they would have to pay more to show them on scheduled channels as well.

Add to that the fact that broadcasts will no longer make use of the transmitters in the future and Sky is likely to cease its use of satellites to broadcast its channels (in favour of IPTV), and the scene is set for the scenario I have painted. Contrary to your view, I am not passionate about seeing the end of the existing broadcast scheduled channels. I don't watch them live anyway, so why would I care? I am simply reporting what I can see happening and reading various projections and forecasts which lead me to the conclusions I have set out.

You are entitled to hold a different view, of course, as do some others, but you will find that you are adopting a more and more isolated position if you display this rigidity of thought in the years ahead.

NOTE: I have merely responded to your posts here, but can I point out that this subject is better aired on the linear channels thread.

jfman 05-12-2019 13:57
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
I can hardly be considered to be manufacturing your claim that scheduled linear television as we know it today will not exist in 2035. By that rationale, yes, the trend must go to 100% streaming/on demand viewing.

OLD BOY 05-12-2019 16:50
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019279)

I can hardly be considered to be manufacturing your claim that scheduled linear television as we know it today will not exist in 2035. By that rationale, yes, the trend must go to 100% streaming/on demand viewing.
Indeed, and nor did I suggest that.

It's your logic that is awry. I do not consider that audience levels have to reduce to 100% before the traditional scheduled channels close down as you have been claiming. The decision to close the traditional scheduled channels will come long before that. But, yes, when that happens, 100% of TV viewing will be streamed/on demand viewing because there will be no alternative.

jfman 06-12-2019 05:05
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
The evidence is that linear broadcast television is cheap - over 250 odd channels many with very few viewers. You appear unable, perhaps deliberately, to differentiate between content costs (which exist anyway) and the marginal cost of adding scheduled linear to all other forms of distribution.

Horizon 06-12-2019 16:52
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019067)
Sky to create 2,000 jobs with new Elstree TV and film studio

https://www.theguardian.com/business...tv-film-studio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36019112)
Not to want to encourage OB especially but they can distribute their content as effectively over IP as they can by satellite.

Whatever the future of broadcast TV, I think it's obvious to Sky that the days when they could more or less dictate the way the pay-TV market operates, by controlling the only nationwide distribution platform as well as rights to all the premium content, are over. If they're going to survive in a fragmented landscape with many distribution platforms and premium content spread thinly across them, then they need to find other ways of being distinctive. If they can produce quality content, that will help them no end.
This is simply Comcast expanding its empire as it transitions into a global "broadcaster" to take on Netflix. Lets see if the other American cos, namely Disney, ViacomCBS and AT&T so something similar here eventually.

Horizon 06-12-2019 21:59
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Cough...:

"The prospect of Amazon mounting a major challenge to Sky and BT at the next multibillion pound Premier League rights auction has increased, after the streaming of 10 top-flight English matches attracted a record number of sign-ups to the retailer’s Prime service."

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...o-amazon-prime

No doubt some will still argue that Amazon or other streamers would never bid for premium sports rights, and they still might not, but after this, I bet they will. As I said several weeks ago, this is a test, Amazon dipping their toes in the water. If they do bid for UKTV rights in the future, then the next step after that, would be global ones as I said before.

Raider999 06-12-2019 23:09
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon (Post 36019444)
Cough...:

"The prospect of Amazon mounting a major challenge to Sky and BT at the next multibillion pound Premier League rights auction has increased, after the streaming of 10 top-flight English matches attracted a record number of sign-ups to the retailer’s Prime service."

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...o-amazon-prime

No doubt some will still argue that Amazon or other streamers would never bid for premium sports rights, and they still might not, but after this, I bet they will. As I said several weeks ago, this is a test, Amazon dipping their toes in the water. If they do bid for UKTV rights in the future, then the next step after that, would be global ones as I said before.
Most of the new subscribers will be using the free 30 day trial offer, which covers both rounds of Amazons rights - presumably some will retain their subs thru lethargy. But I suspect the vast majority will cancel after the footie coverage finishes - obviously the added bonus is the prime benefits in the runup to Christmas

jfman 07-12-2019 00:52
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon (Post 36019444)
Cough...:

"The prospect of Amazon mounting a major challenge to Sky and BT at the next multibillion pound Premier League rights auction has increased, after the streaming of 10 top-flight English matches attracted a record number of sign-ups to the retailer’s Prime service."

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...o-amazon-prime

No doubt some will still argue that Amazon or other streamers would never bid for premium sports rights,and they still might not, but after this, I bet they will. As I said several weeks ago, this is a test, Amazon dipping their toes in the water. If they do bid for UKTV rights in the future, then the next step after that, would be global ones as I said before.
Highlighting for the benefit of the audience the straw man.

There’re a world apart from Amazon and their bargain bucket rights, those that didn’t meet the reserve price in the first round, and going up against meaningful rights won by a Sky or BT.

December is a good month for Prime.

OLD BOY 07-12-2019 09:33
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019454)
Highlighting for the benefit of the audience the straw man.

There’re a world apart from Amazon and their bargain bucket rights, those that didn’t meet the reserve price in the first round, and going up against meaningful rights won by a Sky or BT.

December is a good month for Prime.
Why can you not accept that this may have been a trial run for Amazon? Is this because your economic theory that Amazon would never seriously consider challenging Sky and BT for one or more of the main packages, and could never provide a football offering at a reduced cost, is starting to unravel before your eyes?

Your mind seems very closed to new ideas and fresh ways of doing things.

denphone 07-12-2019 09:57
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019461)
Why can you not accept that this may have been a trial run for Amazon? Is this because your economic theory that Amazon would never seriously consider challenging Sky and BT for one or more of the main packages, and could never provide a football offering at a reduced cost, is starting to unravel before your eyes?

Your mind seems very closed to new ideas and fresh ways of doing things.
Well we shall see if this is a trial run but my hunch is Amazon see these two lots of matches as more of a low cost way Pre-Christmas to attract Prime subscribers and there is a mighty difference between that and bidding all out for most of the packages which they won't as their business sums don't add up for that.

muppetman11 07-12-2019 10:06
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019461)
Why can you not accept that this may have been a trial run for Amazon? Is this because your economic theory that Amazon would never seriously consider challenging Sky and BT for one or more of the main packages, and could never provide a football offering at a reduced cost, is starting to unravel before your eyes?

Your mind seems very closed to new ideas and fresh ways of doing things.
So answer why have they not bid for NFL , NBA , MLB in the USA in any significant numbers.

OLD BOY 07-12-2019 10:14
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019468)
So answer why have they not bid for NFL , NBA , MLB in the USA in any significant numbers.
Who says they won't in future? Things change with time, mate.

People used to say that Virgin would never add Netflix to their platform because there would be no financial advantage to them. I think you were one of them, but forgive me if I misremembered that. Now we not only have Netflix, but we have Amazon and StarzPlay as well, with more to come down the road.

Nothing remains the same forever.

denphone 07-12-2019 10:14
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019468)
So answer why have they not bid for NFL , NBA , MLB in the USA in any significant numbers.
Something which he and others cannot answer but give them time and l am sure they will come up with one..

OLD BOY 07-12-2019 10:15
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019471)
Something which he and others cannot answer but give them time and l am sure they will come up with one..
I just did...

jfman 07-12-2019 10:16
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019461)
Why can you not accept that this may have been a trial run for Amazon? Is this because your economic theory that Amazon would never seriously consider challenging Sky and BT for one or more of the main packages, and could never provide a football offering at a reduced cost, is starting to unravel before your eyes?

Your mind seems very closed to new ideas and fresh ways of doing things.
Why can you not accept that Amazon didn’t bid £5bn for the rights as evidence that the business model is challenging to say the least?

Further to this I see no evidence of football being available in future at reduced cost. I’d be curious to see how those business models are structured given the high cost of the rights.

denphone 07-12-2019 10:16
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019470)
Who says they won't in future? Things change with time, mate.
Well most of your your predictions up to now show up more inconsistencies and contradictions then UK opinion polls..

jfman 07-12-2019 10:18
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019468)
So answer why have they not bid for NFL , NBA , MLB in the USA in any significant numbers.
Or the Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga in Germany, Italy or Spain.

The idea that there’s going to be a golden age of low cost football in England financed by Amazon, Google, Facebook or others goes against all logic. These aren’t charities.

muppetman11 07-12-2019 10:20
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019470)
Who says they won't in future? Things change with time, mate.

People used to say that Virgin would never add Netflix to their platform because there would be no financial advantage to them. I think you were one of them, but forgive me if I misremembered that. Now we not only have Netflix, but we have Amazon and StarzPlay as well, with more to come down the road.

Nothing remains the same forever.
As I expected your standard response.

denphone 07-12-2019 10:20
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019475)
Or the Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga in Germany, Italy or Spain.

The idea that there’s going to be a golden age of low cost football financed by Amazon, Google, Facebook or others goes against all logic. These aren’t charities.
Its complete unadulterated bollocks but deep down he knows that anyway...

Legendkiller2k 07-12-2019 13:31
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019461)
Why can you not accept that this may have been a trial run for Amazon? Is this because your economic theory that Amazon would never seriously consider challenging Sky and BT for one or more of the main packages, and could never provide a football offering at a reduced cost, is starting to unravel before your eyes?

Your mind seems very closed to new ideas and fresh ways of doing things.
It was a trial run for Amazon and those who think otherwise either have their heads buried in the sand and are ignorant to the way tv delivery is changing.
Edit - however if Amazon did get more rights it would come as a cost to the consumer as Amazon can't keep absorbing costs so we could see a sports package added at extra cost.

Edited - thankyou to Denphone for pointing out how my post was originally coming across.

denphone 07-12-2019 13:53
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendkiller2k (Post 36019483)
It was a trial run for Amazon and those who think otherwise either have their heads buried in the sand and are ignorant to the way tv delivery is changing or they are trolling you mate.
Edit - however if Amazon did get more rights it would come as a cost to the consumer as Amazon can't keep absorbing costs so we could see a sports package added at extra cost.
So l gather those who have a differing opinion to other posters are supposedly trolling according to your logic.

Having differing opinions is not trolling at the end of the day even if it does not agree with your viewpoint of things...

Legendkiller2k 07-12-2019 14:03
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019489)
So l gather those who have a differing opinion to other posters are supposedly trolling according to your logic.

Having differing opinions is not trolling at the end of the day even if it does not agree with your viewpoint of things...
No just ignorant to what is happening re-read what i post, i suspect one certain poster is trolling OB we know you don't troll. I have always found you to be a very pleasant poster.

I should of worded my post better though.
I have edited it, thankyou for pointing out how it was coming across.

denphone 07-12-2019 14:10
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendkiller2k (Post 36019490)
No just ignorant to what is happening re-read what i post, i suspect one certain poster is trolling OB we know you don't troll. I have always found you to be a very pleasant poster.

I should of worded my post better though.
I have edited it, thankyou for pointing out how it was coming across.
Sorry its my mistake as well as l do try to be polite and cheery to other posters on this forum.:)

jfman 07-12-2019 14:38
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legendkiller2k (Post 36019490)
No just ignorant to what is happening re-read what i post, i suspect one certain poster is trolling OB we know you don't troll. I have always found you to be a very pleasant poster.

I should of worded my post better though.
I have edited it, thankyou for pointing out how it was coming across.
Oddly enough it was OB who engaged with my post this morning. Not the other way round.

I don't think it's an unreasonable point to make that these rights didn't meet the reserve price, and there's an element of desperation on the part of the Premier League to get a new player into the market as Sky/BT clearly aren't going to bid much higher in the current market state.

Prime, which I subscribe to all year round, in December between free trials and even at £7.99 represents good value.

However even with millions of subscribers at that rate that's not going to add up to a £5bn bid in future for the rest of the rights.

How to get maybe 4 million people to pay in the region of £40 a month gets into the ballpark. Significantly more than Sky Sports on Now TV which frequently has deals.

Horizon 07-12-2019 22:25
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019473)
Why can you not accept that Amazon didn’t bid £5bn for the rights as evidence that the business model is challenging to say the least?

Further to this I see no evidence of football being available in future at reduced cost. I’d be curious to see how those business models are structured given the high cost of the rights.
Why can you not accept that Amazon or one of the other tech giants, may well bid billions for future sports rights, based on this successful test?

jfman 07-12-2019 22:48
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon (Post 36019542)
Why can you not accept that Amazon or one of the other tech giants, may well bid billions for future sports rights, based on this successful test?
'May'

Yes I do think these things could happen.

However there is nothing unique or special about England, despite what it may think, so I'd be surprised if the first sojourn into major sports rights (those that cost billions) will be the English Premier League.

You must however accept that this 'test', at minimal cost, bears no resemblance to paying £5bn for sports rights and charging people £30/40 per month every single month of the year.

There's a fallacy that it could be lower cost - however I've no idea where that comes from. Lower costs only comes from being spread across a larger customer base. Where are these people who want to watch Premiership football that can neither get Sky, Virgin Media, BT or Now TV (which I acknowledge is a Sky product)?

Those involved to this point exercise profit maximisation and have experience in the market. Why would/should anyone else be better at it?

There's also a paradox where the more successful the test is at gaining/retaining Prime subscribers the less likely they are to bid for rights. It's a small investment to gain a lot of low hanging fruit. Is £5bn a good investment to get more subscribers taking a product over and above Prime and likely to get a return on investment?

I should point out I've never, ever questioned whether larger players could join the market - I've only questioned how they fund it and get a return on investment over a three year contract. A question that remains outstanding.

I've also always acknowledged that Sky is a Comcast product - we are already in the hands of global players.

Horizon 07-12-2019 23:37
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
It's a test for Amazon, of course I can accept that.

On funding, the metrics of it, we spoke about this before, but think about what Amazon is first and foremost, a retailer. At the most basic level they can flog football shirts, at a more complex level they could use their vast data, to flog far more products and services to football fans and sell that data to third parties, so I wouldn't assume that there would be a £30-40 football sub, it maybe less, more, or none at all.

Where are the customers going to come from, you ask? Simple. If they win the best packages from Sky, it will be Sky customers. Do you think people who are massive football fans would not switch from Sky to Amazon, becuase I think they would. Which leads me to another point and why Amazon or someone else might do this, it knocks the competition out, in fact, it would kill them.

Sky's business model is based on football and from that, all the other stuff like films, Sky Q etc. But it's football first and without it, Sky's whole business would have to change.

As more than half of the country already has a Amazon account, it would not be hard for Amazon to up sell football to those customers wanting it. Or Facebook, or Apple etc.

Finally and I've said before, Amazon are global in nature, so one day it might be PL rights for the UK, next day they might try and get things changed so that they can bid for global rights. There's a lot of Chinese PL fans out there.

jfman 08-12-2019 00:05
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon (Post 36019546)
It's a test for Amazon, of course I can accept that.

On funding, the metrics of it, we spoke about this before, but think about what Amazon is first and foremost, a retailer. At the most basic level they can flog football shirts, at a more complex level they could use their vast data, to flog far more products and services to football fans and sell that data to third parties, so I wouldn't assume that there would be a £30-40 football sub, it maybe less, more, or none at all.

Where are the customers going to come from, you ask? Simple. If they win the best packages from Sky, it will be Sky customers. Do you think people who are massive football fans would not switch from Sky to Amazon, becuase I think they would. Which leads me to another point and why Amazon or someone else might do this, it knocks the competition out, in fact, it would kill them.
It’s not simple to say these customers are like for like and would move across quickly. The proof: the absence of a bid at all. Sky paying less than they did last time out.

No football subscription at all is absolute fanstasyland. Grab your nearest pocket calculator and divide 5 000 000 000 by anything you like to grasp the challenge.

Quote:
Sky's business model is based on football and from that, all the other stuff like films, Sky Q etc. But it's football first and without it, Sky's whole business would have to change.

As more than half of the country already has a Amazon account, it would not be hard for Amazon to up sell football to those customers wanting it. Or Facebook, or Apple etc.
Back of a fag packet calculations (I’ve not even seen those) and sticking £5bn up for a return are wildly different things.

Quote:
Finally and I've said before, Amazon are global in nature, so one day it might be PL rights for the UK, next day they might try and get things changed so that they can bid for global rights. There's a lot of Chinese PL fans out there.
Substitute every reference to £5bn above for £10bn. You’re also assuming Amazon would be more efficient as distributing EPL into these territories than the incumbents. You don’t have to look far, Eleven Sports, to see how the popularity of La Liga in this country varied a lot when you asked folk to put their hand in their pocket for that alone.

I do agree that Sky’s business model is precarious without Premiership football - that’s why I consider them a good barometer of the falling value of the rights in the absence of a competing model.

muppetman11 08-12-2019 14:05
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
I'll ask again ,

Being that Amazon was started and headquartered in the USA why have they never looked to capture key US Sporting rights ?

It's dipped it's toe in with Thursday NFL games why has it never looked to gain more and take the global rights ?

It's also worth mentioning that Prime in the US is $99 as opposed to the £79 charged here.

pip08456 08-12-2019 14:22
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019566)
I'll ask again ,

Being that Amazon was started and headquartered in the USA why have they never looked to capture key US Sporting rights ?

It's dipped it's toe in with Thursday NFL games why has it never looked to gain more and take the global rights ?

It's also worth mentioning that Prime in the US is $99 as opposed to the £79 charged here.
So its cheaper in the states.

muppetman11 08-12-2019 14:27
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Correction on my earlier post it's $119.

pip08456 08-12-2019 14:29
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019571)
Correction on my earlier post it's $119.
So 76p a month more in the states. My math was a bit wrong there. £90.50 eqivalent.

jfman 08-12-2019 14:30
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
I'm astonished that this is the talking point and not muppetman's actual question. Why are Amazon not blowing folk out the water for US sports rights?

pip08456 08-12-2019 14:31
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Perhaps because I don't care.

muppetman11 08-12-2019 14:32
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Stick to Kodi pip :D

jfman 08-12-2019 14:33
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Fair enough. I look forward to someone actually tacking the question.

denphone 08-12-2019 14:37
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36019575)
Perhaps because I don't care.
Just imagine the 10's of millions new subscribers they would attract..

pip08456 08-12-2019 16:06
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019576)
Stick to Kodi pip :D
I fully intend to mm.:rolleyes::D

OLD BOY 08-12-2019 16:27
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019577)
Fair enough. I look forward to someone actually tacking the question.
Well, the simple answer is that Amazon is expanding and they are currently exploring the art of streaming without the glitches. You know as well as I do that streaming is hardly perfect at the moment and latency is a headache.

However, we are getting there, and I have no doubt at all that sports streaming will take off one the issues are resolved.

I really don't understand the mindset that because something hasn't happened yet that it never will. History proves that theory wrong. There has to be a start point for everything, surely!

As for Amazon and the Premier League, it is now being reported that Amazon is very pleased with their coverage, and it would seem that this will encourage them to put more than a toe in the water this time.

I was pleased to see that the matches were free of extra charge, and Amazon probably covered most of the cost of this by the increased number of subscriptions they took as a result.

If they do bid for and get the rights next time around, it will be very interesting to see how much they charge subscribers for that. I would not be at all surprised if the cost came down from the prices Sky are charging their customers.

denphone 08-12-2019 16:31
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019602)
Well, the simple answer is that Amazon is expanding and they are currently exploring the art of streaming without the glitches. You know as well as I do that streaming is hardly perfect at the moment and latency is a headache.

However, we are getting there, and I have no doubt at all that sports streaming will take off one the issues are resolved.

I really don't understand the mindset that because something hasn't happened yet that it never will. History proves that theory wrong. There has to be a start point for everything, surely!

As for Amazon and the Premier League, it is now being reported that Amazon is very pleased with their coverage, and it would seem that this will encourage them to put more than a toe in the water this time.

I was pleased to see that the matches were free of extra charge, and Amazon probably covered most of the cost of this by the increased number of subscriptions they took as a result.

If they do bid for and get the rights next time around, it will be very interesting to see how much they charge subscribers for that. I would not be at all surprised if the cost came down from the prices Sky are charging their customers.
We have just had the Champions league rights sold for the next three years and Amazon had a great chance to bid for them as they would have blown the other bidders out of the water.

Now ask yourself why did they not bid for them? and please tell us when you come up with a answer?

OLD BOY 08-12-2019 16:49
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019547)
It’s not simple to say these customers are like for like and would move across quickly. The proof: the absence of a bid at all. Sky paying less than they did last time out.

No football subscription at all is absolute fanstasyland. Grab your nearest pocket calculator and divide 5 000 000 000 by anything you like to grasp the challenge.
How is the absence of a bid proof that Sky customers would not move quickly to Amazon if they took on the Premiership League? It does not follow at all!

I don't think anyone has suggested that Amazon would show football for free if they won the bid from Sky. However, they might well do it cheaper.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019607)
We have just had the Champions league rights sold for the next three years and Amazon had a great chance to bid for them as they would have blown the other bidders out of the water.

Now ask yourself why did they not bid for them? and please tell us when you come up with a answer?
As I said to jfman earlier, the problems of streaming are still being sorted out. You wouldn't expect Amazon to spend shedloads of money before testing it out, would you?

Evidently, they are pleased with the way coverage in the UK was played out with no major issues, so maybe that is enough to spur them on further.

jfman 08-12-2019 17:43
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019614)
How is the absence of a bid proof that Sky customers would not move quickly to Amazon if they took on the Premiership League? It does not follow at all!
These are hugely successful, profitable, capitalist enterprises seeking to maximise shareholder value. The whole point of the blind auction process is for everyone to evaluate what revenues and profits they could extract from the rights and bid on that basis.

If it was that easy surely someone out of Amazon, Google, Facebook, Netflix, or even BT would bid the same as Sky and just do it.

Quote:
I don't think anyone has suggested that Amazon would show football for free if they won the bid from Sky. However, they might well do it cheaper.
It's hard to see how a standalone subscription could be brought below the price of the discounted Now TV options and return over £5bn in revenues.

Quote:
As I said to jfman earlier, the problems of streaming are still being sorted out. You wouldn't expect Amazon to spend shedloads of money before testing it out, would you?
Amazon have been streaming NFL for some time, tennis for some time. BBC have been streaming football on iPlayer for years.

Quote:
Evidently, they are pleased with the way coverage in the UK was played out with no major issues, so maybe that is enough to spur them on further.
Maybe.

Raider999 08-12-2019 20:38
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019614)
How is the absence of a bid proof that Sky customers would not move quickly to Amazon if they took on the Premiership League? It does not follow at all!

I don't think anyone has suggested that Amazon would show football for free if they won the bid from Sky. However, they might well do it cheaper.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------



As I said to jfman earlier, the problems of streaming are still being sorted out. You wouldn't expect Amazon to spend shedloads of money before testing it out, would you?

Evidently, they are pleased with the way coverage in the UK was played out with no major issues, so maybe that is enough to spur them on further.
Any evidence to support the comment 'they may do it cheaper'?

If the objective was to test the water surely they would not have any free offers on Prime during December? I imagine most people watching either already had Prime or took the free trial to watch the football.

As for your assertion that there were no major issues - there have been enough comments/coverage to the contrary, with stuttering streams, poor picture quality on some matches and some having the inability to be able to stream the games at all.

Hate to see what it would be like if they did have major issues!

Chris 09-12-2019 00:41
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quite.

We can stream recorded shows in HD, often in UHD, on our humble 4mbps ADSL connection, but the Liverpool v Everton game was absolutely horrific, to the point of being unwatchable. Whatever tech they’re using obviously requires a substantial superfast broadband connection to work effectively.

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 08:50
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider999 (Post 36019640)
Any evidence to support the comment 'they may do it cheaper'?

If the objective was to test the water surely they would not have any free offers on Prime during December? I imagine most people watching either already had Prime or took the free trial to watch the football.

As for your assertion that there were no major issues - there have been enough comments/coverage to the contrary, with stuttering streams, poor picture quality on some matches and some having the inability to be able to stream the games at all.

Hate to see what it would be like if they did have major issues!
The word 'may'' is significant here. But, yes, we all know that Sky charge the maximum they can get away with, and we also know that Amazon is first and foremost a retailer. They have a reputation for low pricing and they can use football to drive sales.

By the way, the December matches are being shown free on Amazon. Can you imagine Sky doing that for any Premiership matches?

Hugh 09-12-2019 08:52
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
"Being shown free on Amazon" - only if you’re a Prime subscriber!

That’s like saying they are shown free on Sky Sports, only if you’re a Sky Sports subscriber...

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 09:02
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019626)
These are hugely successful, profitable, capitalist enterprises seeking to maximise shareholder value. The whole point of the blind auction process is for everyone to evaluate what revenues and profits they could extract from the rights and bid on that basis.

If it was that easy surely someone out of Amazon, Google, Facebook, Netflix, or even BT would bid the same as Sky and just do it.



It's hard to see how a standalone subscription could be brought below the price of the discounted Now TV options and return over £5bn in revenues.



Amazon have been streaming NFL for some time, tennis for some time. BBC have been streaming football on iPlayer for years.
They would not be 'hugely successful' and 'profitable' for long if they took silly risks. They are dealing here with a new technology that is still being perfected using a broadband infrastructure that is still being rolled out in an environment where people like Chris have inadequate broadband schemes. It would not be the best decision for Amazon to take to plunge right in and take on Sky, would it? I'm sure that no economist in his right mind would advise any company to do that, would they?

Additionally, think of the reputational damage that would be done if there were a significant number of complaints being received from people who are dedicated to football. Poor old Den would be screaming from the rooftops, and I wouldn't blame him.

As for NFL, may I just point out that the broadband situation in the US is not the same as in the UK. There have been complaints in the UK about the streamed coverage of tennis, have there not? The fact that the BBC hzve managed to stream sport successfully proves that it can be done, but any new entrant needs to be clear that they can achieve similar results themselves first.

denphone 09-12-2019 09:13
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019680)
They would not be 'hugely successful' and 'profitable' for long if they took silly risks. They are dealing here with a new technology that is still being perfected using a broadband infrastructure that is still being rolled out in an environment where people like Chris have inadequate broadband schemes. It would not be the best decision for Amazon to take to plunge right in and take on Sky, would it? I'm sure that no economist in his right mind would advise any company to do that, would they?
Even some of those with better broadband speeds still encountered poor PQ , buffering or no picture at all last week.

Its not something that is going to be solved overnight in my view.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019680)

Additionally, think of the reputational damage that would be done if there were a significant number of complaints being received from people who are dedicated to football. Poor old Den would be screaming from the rooftops, and I wouldn't blame him.
Old Den does not scream from the rooftops anymore as old age has brought a calmness and serenity but alas little nous and wisdom.:D

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 09:24
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36019677)
"Being shown free on Amazon" - only if you’re a Prime subscriber!

That’s like saying they are shown free on Sky Sports, only if you’re a Sky Sports subscriber...
Strange analogy. The correct comparison would relate to Sky subscribers who did not currently take Sky Sports.

Anyway, I said a few posts back 'free of extra charge'. I don't see the need to repeat these phrases each time I post. You know what I mean.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019682)
Even some of those with better broadband speeds still encountered poor PQ , buffering or no picture at all last week.

Its not something that is going to be solved overnight in my view.
The reason they thought it was a success was that they had worked out that the main issues were likely to be with individuals who had poor broadband speeds or problems with their set-up at home. As reported on this forum, others are finding that the PQ is excellent, with no buffering or stuttering at all.

https://www.rxtvlog.com/2019/12/amaz...-round-of.html

Hugh 09-12-2019 10:42
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019684)
Strange analogy. The correct comparison would relate to Sky subscribers who did not currently take Sky Sports.

Anyway, I said a few posts back 'free of extra charge'. I don't see the need to repeat these phrases each time I post. You know what I mean.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------



The reason they thought it was a success was that they had worked out that the main issues were likely to be with individuals who had poor broadband speeds or problems with their set-up at home. As reported on this forum, others are finding that the PQ is excellent, with no buffering or stuttering at all.

https://www.rxtvlog.com/2019/12/amaz...-round-of.html
No, it wouldn't, as the Amazon Prime subscription covers all the Amazon offerings, including Prime TV, Prime Music, Prime Books, whilst Sky segment their offerings in different cost packages.

BenMcr 09-12-2019 10:49
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36019693)
Whilst Sky segment their offerings in different cost packages.
So do Amazon as well.

Both Kindle Unlimited and Amazon Music Unlimited are cost options separate to a Prime Video subscription.

And they still haven't made up their mind about Audiobooks, as there are two different options for them (Kindle Unlimited and Audible).

Chad 09-12-2019 11:07
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36019677)
"Being shown free on Amazon" - only if you’re a Prime subscriber!

That’s like saying they are shown free on Sky Sports, only if you’re a Sky Sports subscriber...
Sky show around 6 to 10 Premier League games per yesr on either Sky One or Sky Sports Mix. Premier League football at no additional cost to Sky subscribers without aSky Sports subscription.

Chris 09-12-2019 11:10
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad (Post 36019696)
Sky show around 6 to 10 Premier League games per yesr on either Sky One or Sky Sports Mix. Premier League football at no additional cost to Sky subscribers without aSky Sports subscription.
That's hardly comparable to Amazon bundling its entire rights package with its main Prime TV offering. It's not as if they couldn't charge extra for the football if they wanted to - most of what's accessible via the Prime Video service is not included in the cost of an Amazon Prime subscription.

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 14:46
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36019693)
No, it wouldn't, as the Amazon Prime subscription covers all the Amazon offerings, including Prime TV, Prime Music, Prime Books, whilst Sky segment their offerings in different cost packages.
Yes, it would! We are talking about adding Premiership football to a package. So my post was correct.

muppetman11 09-12-2019 14:49
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019675)
The word 'may'' is significant here. But, yes, we all know that Sky charge the maximum they can get away with, and we also know that Amazon is first and foremost a retailer. They have a reputation for low pricing and they can use football to drive sales.

By the way, the December matches are being shown free on Amazon. Can you imagine Sky doing that for any Premiership matches?
They are being shown inclusive with Prime because of a package they paid peanuts for as nobody else wanted it at the reserve price.

Chris 09-12-2019 16:31
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
My sense is that they're testing the water, trying out technology and establishing what the maximum reach is for football on their platform, i.e. if there is no barrier to entry (through extra subscription), what's the maximum number of their existing subscriber base that will access a live stream? How many new subscribers will access one or more football streams in their first month? Data like this will help them decide what to do with it in future, including how much to pay for the rights, and whether it is worth more to them as a way of getting subscribers on to the Prime service, or whether it's something that best stands separate with an extra subscription, as is the case with Prime Music.

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 16:41
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetman11 (Post 36019718)
They are being shown inclusive with Prime because of a package they paid peanuts for as nobody else wanted it at the reserve price.
I've never before heard £50m described as 'peanuts'. But there you go.

Regardless of your point, they could have made a pretty good profit by charging extra for this, which they chose not to do.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36019721)
My sense is that they're testing the water, trying out technology and establishing what the maximum reach is for football on their platform, i.e. if there is no barrier to entry (through extra subscription), what's the maximum number of their existing subscriber base that will access a live stream? How many new subscribers will access one or more football streams in their first month? Data like this will help them decide what to do with it in future, including how much to pay for the rights, and whether it is worth more to them as a way of getting subscribers on to the Prime service, or whether it's something that best stands separate with an extra subscription, as is the case with Prime Music.
Agreed. Amazon are more than pleased with the number of new subscribers this has generated, and so the experience is likely to encourage them.

https://advanced-television.com/2019...ps-for-amazon/

Chris 09-12-2019 17:11
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019723)
I've never before heard £50m described as 'peanuts'. But there you go.

Regardless of your point, they could have made a pretty good profit by charging extra for this, which they chose not to do.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------



Agreed. Amazon are more than pleased with the number of new subscribers this has generated, and so the experience is likely to encourage them.

https://advanced-television.com/2019...ps-for-amazon/
The difficulty they have is that they see an uptick in Prime subscriptions at this time of year anyway, as people do Christmas shopping. Though the level of data analysis they can do is absolutely frightening ... they know if you stopped watching something part way through, or fast-forwarded, down to the second, so I guess they can combine number of new subs with number of new subs streaming, and new subs who don't cancel on 1st January.

jfman 09-12-2019 19:13
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019723)
I've never before heard £50m described as 'peanuts'. But there you go.
Compared to the £5.136 billion that Sky/BT paid in the previous round I think everyone would accept it is relative peanuts.

Quote:
Regardless of your point, they could have made a pretty good profit by charging extra for this, which they chose not to do.
Could they have? Pay per view football, on an individual game basis, has been a resounding failure in this country. Bundling a few games over a few nights in a single month? Untested.

Quote:
Agreed. Amazon are more than pleased with the number of new subscribers this has generated, and so the experience is likely to encourage them.

https://advanced-television.com/2019...ps-for-amazon/
Amazon describe Amazon as a success, gain free advertising for Amazon in “news” articles and get folk on internet forums talking about them. Win win on the back of their own words.

Raider999 09-12-2019 20:22
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
The major point is, Amazon have stated there were no major problems, in my previous post I highlighted a couple.

I also suggested that many of the new subscribers are using the free month to watch the football (as indeed I am) - so doesn't matter how many new customers signed up to Prime it is how many continue to subscribe after the free month that counts.

Totally agree, in terms of the billions paid for Premiership Rights across the world £50m is peanuts.

Chad 09-12-2019 21:09
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...remier-league/

Amazon are paying £30 million per year for their Premier League rights. They'd need nearly 3.7 million new customers paying £7.99 to cover the cost of this year's rights.

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 21:16
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad (Post 36019746)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...remier-league/

Amazon are paying £30 million per year for their Premier League rights. They'd need nearly 3.7 million new customers paying £7.99 to cover the cost of this year's rights.
You are looking at this far too simplistically. What about all the extra sales this will generate?

It is true that some will not continue beyond the trial period, but this will give Amazon a good idea of how many people would subscribe if they won the rights from Sky or BT.

denphone 09-12-2019 21:27
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad (Post 36019746)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...remier-league/

Amazon are paying £30 million per year for their Premier League rights. They'd need nearly 3.7 million new customers paying £7.99 to cover the cost of this year's rights.
That simply won't happen so maybe now OB will realise his fanciful predictions about them buying the vast majority of Premier League rights is just pie in the sky.

OLD BOY 09-12-2019 21:31
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019752)
That simply won't happen so maybe now OB will realise his fanciful predictions about them buying the vast majority of Premier League rights is just pie in the sky.
It's so not, Den...:eh:

denphone 09-12-2019 21:36
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019756)
It's so not, Den...:eh:
You can deny as much as you want or move the musical chairs around when it suits your narrative but the business sums don't add up and have never added up..

Legendkiller2k 09-12-2019 21:57
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019752)
That simply won't happen so maybe now OB will realise his fanciful predictions about them buying the vast majority of Premier League rights is just pie in the sky.
Chances are Amazon have a lot more than 3.7million paying prime customers so i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss that.
Only Amazon themselves know exactly how many paying prime members they have, all we can do is speculate but i'd eat my hat if it wasn't a lot more than 3.7million.

jfman 09-12-2019 22:08
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
There varying figures around, 6.4 million, 9 million and 15 million from a quick google. I think the latter is quite fanciful - that’s 60 per cent of households.

The real question is how many will pay for a sports subscription on top of that and at what price point. OB is right about one thing though, for the small amount paid for the rights there’s a lot of low hanging fruit to be picked, plus Christmas and Boxing Day sales.

spankysmagicpian 09-12-2019 22:57
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Amazon aren't stupid - they will be testing the water and they will know how many people on average sign up for a free month and how many of those keep the subs up, football or not.

As someone mentioned, and I wouldn't be surprised, if the ones that remain aren't that far off as you think as to the extra revenue they might receive in extra sales. £7.99 a month isn't a lot or everything you get with it. You've got the prime for 30 days and you end up finding out how easy it is to click and buy and get it the same day.

All the retailers do it - how many times have you say popped into Aldi for a special and bought other stuff too? How many times do you go into Sainsburys for a couple of items and end up buying the offers? I bet some of the offers are a loss leader but they make it up on the extra items.

OLD BOY 10-12-2019 07:26
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019758)
You can deny as much as you want or move the musical chairs around when it suits your narrative but the business sums don't add up and have never added up..
...And yet the Premiership League has ensured Sky's survival! How come it's a boon for Sky and yet it would be a disaster for Amazon? You're coming out with statements that don't make any sense.

Sorry, but...really?:eek:

---------- Post added at 07:20 ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by spankysmagicpian (Post 36019776)
Amazon aren't stupid - they will be testing the water and they will know how many people on average sign up for a free month and how many of those keep the subs up, football or not.

As someone mentioned, and I wouldn't be surprised, if the ones that remain aren't that far off as you think as to the extra revenue they might receive in extra sales. £7.99 a month isn't a lot or everything you get with it. You've got the prime for 30 days and you end up finding out how easy it is to click and buy and get it the same day.

All the retailers do it - how many times have you say popped into Aldi for a special and bought other stuff too? How many times do you go into Sainsburys for a couple of items and end up buying the offers? I bet some of the offers are a loss leader but they make it up on the extra items.
Quite so. And if they charged as much as Sky do for football, the extra business is on top of the profit from that. It's a no brainer, really. I can't see Amazon passing up this opportunity, as long as they are satisfied that the infrastructure can support it.

---------- Post added at 07:26 ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019768)
There varying figures around, 6.4 million, 9 million and 15 million from a quick google. I think the latter is quite fanciful - that’s 60 per cent of households.

The real question is how many will pay for a sports subscription on top of that and at what price point. OB is right about one thing though, for the small amount paid for the rights there’s a lot of low hanging fruit to be picked, plus Christmas and Boxing Day sales.
We know how many people would pay for a sports subscription already. They are currently doing so for Sky and BT, so you don't need to be a genius to work out a ballpark figure.

The fact that so many people watched the Amazon games just for this short season of matches is a demonstration of the interest that football fans have for watching sport via streaming. Whatever the figures were, Amazon will be spurred on by the results of their little foray into Premiership football, and I don't see why they would want to stop there, do you?

jfman 10-12-2019 08:00
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Well, yes. The obvious question of the return on investment of over £5bn.

We don't know how many households would take a Premiership only subscription - while it's obvious the most popular sport it's impossible to say that X million Sky Sports subscribers = X million Amazon subscribers. How far short they fall is the great unknown.

Sky can bid on the basis that on day 1 of the three year window the subscribers are in the bag to turn a profit. They also know how many subscribers are likely to subscribe over the summer as well.

Amazon and others cannot know this with certainty. As you are always quick to point out streaming offers flexibility to subscribe / unsubscribe In a way Sky isn't.

"If Sky can do it anyone can" is one of the worst interpretations going. Why didn't Setanta, ESPN, NTL, Telewest, ITV Digital?

denphone 10-12-2019 08:29
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019781)
...And yet the Premiership League has ensured Sky's survival! How come it's a boon for Sky and yet it would be a disaster for Amazon? You're coming out with statements that don't make any sense.

Sorry, but...really?:eek:
My statements might not make any sense compared to others but l and others are still waiting for your answer on why Amazon up to now in their own country have never looked to capture key US Sporting rights and when you have worked that one out then you might actually work the other one out.

OLD BOY 10-12-2019 09:52
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019786)
Well, yes. The obvious question of the return on investment of over £5bn.

We don't know how many households would take a Premiership only subscription - while it's obvious the most popular sport it's impossible to say that X million Sky Sports subscribers = X million Amazon subscribers. How far short they fall is the great unknown.

Sky can bid on the basis that on day 1 of the three year window the subscribers are in the bag to turn a profit. They also know how many subscribers are likely to subscribe over the summer as well.

Amazon and others cannot know this with certainty. As you are always quick to point out streaming offers flexibility to subscribe / unsubscribe In a way Sky isn't.

"If Sky can do it anyone can" is one of the worst interpretations going. Why didn't Setanta, ESPN, NTL, Telewest, ITV Digital?
You are trying to take us for fools if you are denying that the money will follow the football. I am sure the advice Amazon gets from its experts will enable them to assess whether it will be worthwhile to make a bid for the Premiership football, and it is pretty clear to me that this advice will lead them to go for it. You have not explained exactly why this would not work for Amazon even though it works for Sky and BT. Given that you are one of the 'nothing will ever change' brigade, you will only begrudgingly start to believe it when it hits you in the face.

You are entitled to your view, but you will be proved wrong. Sooner or later, Amazon will get in there, and my guess is that this will come about in the 2022 bidding process.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019788)
My statements might not make any sense compared to others but l and others are still waiting for your answer on why Amazon up to now in their own country have never looked to capture key US Sporting rights and when you have worked that one out then you might actually work the other one out.
Well, maybe the broadband infrastructure in the US does not make this a viable project just now - I don't know. But frankly, it's irrelevant. The fact that Amazon bothered to go for these bucket shop rights, with all the energy they had to expend on making this work for just five days in December must prove that the determination is there if the experience proves successful.

Anyway, we will soon see, just three years to find out.

denphone 10-12-2019 10:11
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019792)

Well, maybe the broadband infrastructure in the US does not make this a viable project just now - I don't know. But frankly, it's irrelevant. The fact that Amazon bothered to go for these bucket shop rights, with all the energy they had to expend on making this work for just five days in December must prove that the determination is there if the experience proves successful.

Anyway, we will soon see, just three years to find out.
It was a cheap as chips package that they would use as a driver for a uptake of
new Prime subscribers throughout Christmas.

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019792)
Sooner or later, Amazon will get in there, and my guess is that this will come about in the 2022 bidding process.



Anyway, we will soon see, just three years to find out.
Just like the last few bidding processes l suppose....

OLD BOY 10-12-2019 10:25
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019796)
It was a cheap as chips package that they would use as a driver for a uptake of
new Prime subscribers throughout Christmas.

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------



Just like the last few bidding processes l suppose....
Nobody denies that Amazon only made a bid for the cheapest package, but why would they put so much effort into delivering these few matches via broadband if they were not taking this seriously?

Your constant reference to situations that have not happened before does not prove your case. The broadband structure in this country is still in development, so it's no wonder this has not be tried before.

Legendkiller2k 10-12-2019 11:05
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Amazon break into Champions league with German deal https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...eague-football

Streaming service follows Premier League success with further football rights tie-up
Fresh from the success of streaming top-flight English football for the first time, Amazon has sets its sights on Europe’s premier club competition, securing exclusive German rights to a package of Champions League matches.

Amazon’s deal in Germany is akin to its move to break the stranglehold on Premier League rights held by Sky and BT in the UK. In Germany, Champions League rights are held by Sky Deutschland, which sub-licenses a package to sports streaming service DAZN.

Amazon has picked up the exclusive rights to 16 Champions League matches a season, giving it the top pick for Tuesday night fixtures, in the group and knockout stages for three seasons from 2021-22.

Still think the likes of Amazon won't bid for more football? Ok it's only 16 matches but this shows they clearly are testing the waters.

buckeye 10-12-2019 12:50
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019786)
Well, yes. The obvious question of the return on investment of over £5bn.
You are presupposing Amazon would bid for all Premier League rights by coming up with that figure.

If and its a big if Amazon bid for rights next time round what makes you think they would go for all rights and not just one or two packages?

Or maybe the EPL will structure a new package to tempt Amazon to spend more than they have in this round?
Something like all bank holiday weekend games or all games for several mid weeks?

jfman 10-12-2019 13:36
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019792)
You are trying to take us for fools if you are denying that the money will follow the football. I am sure the advice Amazon gets from its experts will enable them to assess whether it will be worthwhile to make a bid for the Premiership football, and it is pretty clear to me that this advice will lead them to go for it. You have not explained exactly why this would not work for Amazon even though it works for Sky and BT. Given that you are one of the 'nothing will ever change' brigade, you will only begrudgingly start to believe it when it hits you in the face.

You are entitled to your view, but you will be proved wrong. Sooner or later, Amazon will get in there, and my guess is that this will come about in the 2022 bidding process.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------



Well, maybe the broadband infrastructure in the US does not make this a viable project just now - I don't know. But frankly, it's irrelevant. The fact that Amazon bothered to go for these bucket shop rights, with all the energy they had to expend on making this work for just five days in December must prove that the determination is there if the experience proves successful.

Anyway, we will soon see, just three years to find out.
If money follows football again the graveyard of Sky competitors in this country indicates there's a bit more to it than that.

£5bn is a huge wedge of money to invest with so much uncertainty about the model, pricing and the customer base.

Amazon haven't had to expend much energy broadcasting these games. Neither does it show a determination. It shows a unique opportunity where they could get rights of no value to anyone else that had some value to Amazon due to timing. This was by design of a league desperate to drum up interest.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye (Post 36019802)
You are presupposing Amazon would bid for all Premier League rights by coming up with that figure.

If and its a big if Amazon bid for rights next time round what makes you think they would go for all rights and not just one or two packages?

Or maybe the EPL will structure a new package to tempt Amazon to spend more than they have in this round?
Something like all bank holiday weekend games or all games for several mid weeks?
I'm sure if the league puts something on a plate, at low cost, Amazon will of course be interested. However thats a dangerous game for the league to play risking the ire (and value of the rights) to their largest revenue streams Sky and BT.

buckeye 10-12-2019 14:35
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019806)
If money follows football again the graveyard of Sky competitors in this country indicates there's a bit more to it than that.

£5bn is a huge wedge of money to invest with so much uncertainty about the model, pricing and the customer base.

Amazon haven't had to expend much energy broadcasting these games. Neither does it show a determination. It shows a unique opportunity where they could get rights of no value to anyone else that had some value to Amazon due to timing. This was by design of a league desperate to drum up interest.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------



I'm sure if the league puts something on a plate, at low cost, Amazon will of course be interested. However thats a dangerous game for the league to play risking the ire (and value of the rights) to their largest revenue streams Sky and BT.
You haven't answered why you think Amazon would have to spend £5 billion to secure the rights.
Multiple packages will be available why do you think Amazon would have to buy all of them?

jfman 10-12-2019 14:53
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeye (Post 36019813)
You haven't answered why you think Amazon would have to spend £5 billion to secure the rights.
Multiple packages will be available why do you think Amazon would have to buy all of them?
Much previous conversation around this matter has revolved around Amazon or others having the resource to “blow Sky out the water”, so I’ve largely stuck to addressing that point.

Do Amazon want to do a BT/ESPN/Setanta and increase their costs to play second fiddle with a game once per week? BT Sport standalone is quite an expensive product for what it is.

buckeye 10-12-2019 15:09
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019817)
Much previous conversation around this matter has revolved around Amazon or others having the resource to “blow Sky out the water”, so I’ve largely stuck to addressing that point.

Do Amazon want to do a BT/ESPN/Setanta and increase their costs to play second fiddle with a game once per week? BT Sport standalone is quite an expensive product for what it is.
I don't think anyone could argue against the fact that Amazon couldn't possibly make a return on a £5 billion investment in a single market,
but lets follow your example, say no special package is created for them and they decide to go for BT's 12:30 pm Saturday games?
The economics become far more complicated, how many extra Prime subscriptions would they create?
How much extra retail sales would they get?
How much upselling of other subscriptions like Amazon Music which is cheaper than Spotify would they create?

This three year deal is undoubtedly an experiment by them to work out the metrics which is why I said it will be a big if that they bid again for rights, they don't need to be a dominant player in the market or blow Sky out of the water, they just need to secure enough rights to increase their main business which is selling us stuff.

OLD BOY 10-12-2019 16:14
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36019806)
If money follows football again the graveyard of Sky competitors in this country indicates there's a bit more to it than that.

£5bn is a huge wedge of money to invest with so much uncertainty about the model, pricing and the customer base.

Amazon haven't had to expend much energy broadcasting these games. Neither does it show a determination. It shows a unique opportunity where they could get rights of no value to anyone else that had some value to Amazon due to timing. This was by design of a league desperate to drum up interest.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------



I'm sure if the league puts something on a plate, at low cost, Amazon will of course be interested. However thats a dangerous game for the league to play risking the ire (and value of the rights) to their largest revenue streams Sky and BT.
This is Amazon we are talking about! If anyone can take on Sky, they can.

If you really think it was a breeze for Amazon to take on these few matches, you are underestimating to a spectacular extent.

jfman 10-12-2019 18:22
Re: Netflix/Streaming Services
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019830)
This is Amazon we are talking about! If anyone can take on Sky, they can.

If you really think it was a breeze for Amazon to take on these few matches, you are underestimating to a spectacular extent.
BT have been taking on streaming of 8 games on their app for some considerable time in the Champions League so this isn’t the huge technological feat you claim it to be.

“If anyone can take on Sky, they can”

The same applies to BT. Hell even Setanta had venture capitalists with billions at their disposal back in the day. You are confusing having a business model for this task in its own right with the size of a company,


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